←2020-10-04 2020-10-05 2020-10-06→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:03:54 * pikhq contemplates doing things that are esoteric-related again
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02:32:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Scratcher * New user account
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04:35:55 <pikhq> been so long though. what even to do...
04:37:19 <imode> join me in shaving the steps off of this RAM ruleset.
05:42:17 <zzo38> Are there standard TeX fonts for unslanted lowercase Greek alphabets?
05:42:45 <zzo38> (It would probably be easy enough to make such fonts, but I want to know if there are standard ones.)
05:55:16 <Arcorann_> There should be as part of whatever packages people use to type Greek
05:59:09 <zzo38> Maybe, but I meant for mathematical typesetting, not for writing Greek words.
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09:17:09 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77826&oldid=77591 * SunnyMoon * (+41) 33!
09:25:17 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77827&oldid=77826 * SunnyMoon * (+63) I am also playing around with TPT!
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11:28:06 <esowiki> [[Babel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77828 * Sinthorion * (+2598) Created page with "'''Babel''' is an esolang currently developed by [[User:Sinthorion|Sinthorion]], in which the source code may only contain the lowercase letters, whitespace, commas and period..."
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12:25:49 <esowiki> [[User:SoicBR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77829 * SoicBR * (+109) Created page with "User:SoicBR is a hobbyst programmer and game developer. He created the A.R.T.I.C.L.E. programming language."
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13:20:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77830&oldid=77823 * OsmineYT * (+168)
13:34:37 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77831 * SoicBR * (+9191) Created page with "A.R.T.I.C.L.E. is an esoteric programming language created in 5/10/2020 by [[User:SoicBR]] A.R.T.I.C.L.E. stands for: Apple Random Tower Island Cat Lol Elephant In A.R.T..."
13:44:45 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77832&oldid=77831 * SoicBR * (-68) /* Phrases */
13:45:00 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77833&oldid=77832 * SoicBR * (-46) /* Phrases */
13:50:05 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77834&oldid=77833 * SoicBR * (+91) /* Phrases */
13:51:18 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77835&oldid=77834 * SoicBR * (+0)
13:59:25 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77836&oldid=77835 * SoicBR * (+91)
14:02:06 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77837&oldid=77637 * SoicBR * (+1496) /* Implementations */
14:05:25 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77838&oldid=77837 * SoicBR * (+0) /* Implementations */
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14:10:03 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77839&oldid=77789 * SoicBR * (+1824)
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14:31:14 <esowiki> [[User:SoicBR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77840&oldid=77829 * SoicBR * (+28)
15:03:52 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77841&oldid=77836 * SoicBR * (-4) /* The accumulator(A) */
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17:21:40 <shachaf> `olist 1216
17:21:42 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:32:04 <b_jonas> `thanks HackEso
17:32:06 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
17:39:10 <int-e> Thacky.
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18:14:48 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77842&oldid=77757 * SunnyMoon * (+4) linkify
18:15:45 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77843&oldid=77767 * SunnyMoon * (+2) linkify
18:18:33 <int-e> . o O ( hmm, bash problem: Wait for a child process that the shell didn't spawn itself. Currently that's the last thing I want to do so I can do exec perl -e "waitpid($PID,0)"... )
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18:54:27 <fizzie> If the shell didn't spawn it, how is it a child of the shell?
18:57:44 <fizzie> Hmm, guess it could have been spawned by the process that exec'd the shell.
18:59:36 <shachaf> Perhaps the shell ptraced it.
19:00:40 <shachaf> Man, ptrace has a bug where it makes epoll_wait (but not poll etc.) fail with EINTR.
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19:01:57 <shachaf> The other day I ran into a program where that was actually a problem (it wasn't restarting on EINTR).
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19:23:47 <int-e> fizzie: It's spawned by the process that execs the shell.
19:24:51 <int-e> Using clone() with too many flags, so doing *that* in the shell is hardly an option.
19:30:22 <shachaf> Why does the thing exec a shell?
19:30:30 <int-e> because I'm lazy
19:31:25 <int-e> It's more convenient to write a dozen of shell commands than to figure out their C equivalent.
19:32:06 * int-e is playing with namespaces
19:34:52 <int-e> Anyway, I why do I have to explain why on #esoteric :P
19:35:33 <shachaf> Why do I have to explain why you have to explain why on #esoteric?
19:35:41 <int-e> (I know I'm guilty of asking why too.)
19:37:40 <shachaf> One thing about ptrace is, as far as I can tell, you have to be willing to get unknown pids from wait()
19:38:01 <shachaf> Since a process might fork and then you might get an event from the child before you get a fork event from the parent.
19:38:27 <shachaf> Man, fork, what an esoteric bit of nonsense that's in every Unix system.
19:39:38 <int-e> isn't it a really clever hack though
19:42:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, not really. firstly, you only start to automatically ptrace child processes if you set the PTRACE_O_TRACEFORK option, which I think isn't default; second you can listen to PTRACE_EVENT_FORK, PTRACE_EVENT_VFORK, PTRACE_EVENT_CLONE messages to find out about those children, without having to decode every system call
19:42:46 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, it's true, I meant only if you set TRACE{FORK,CLONE,VFORK}
19:43:11 <shachaf> But you might get the wait results before the PTRACE_EVENT telling you about the new pid.
19:43:59 <shachaf> I suppose you could avoid waitpid(-1) and only give it specific pids that you know about, but that doesn't seem great.
19:44:09 <b_jonas> but waiting for arbitrary pids with waitpid or wait4 is usually the default anyway, unless perhaps you use some "fun" combination of threading and signals to find out about the pids.
19:44:45 <b_jonas> like, if you have just one thread, you might as well call waitpid or wait4 with pid=-1, since you have to handle every wait notification sooner or later anyway
19:44:53 <b_jonas> at worst you store the data for later
19:46:14 <b_jonas> waiting for a specific pid is a shortcut only for very simple programs, and doing a ptrace more or less excludes that
19:46:21 <shachaf> I agree.
19:46:39 <shachaf> But it means you have to handle unknown pids, as far as I can tell.
19:47:14 <shachaf> These are my notes about using ptrace: https://shachaf.net/tmp/ptrace-notes.txt
19:47:39 <b_jonas> ok
19:48:15 <b_jonas> I don't expect to use ptrace directly, it's usually best to leave that to debuggers or strace
19:48:36 <shachaf> I wrote a program which is like a mini-strace.
19:49:02 <b_jonas> ok
20:07:44 <rain1> I wonder if i should switch to qwerty
20:09:25 <myname> from what
20:10:33 <rain1> dvorak
20:10:41 <b_jonas> rain1: depends on what kind of text you usually type
20:10:58 <rain1> the problem is the key caps are different from what they do
20:11:08 <rain1> and programs on my computre are sometimes not acting right because of it
20:11:26 <b_jonas> you could even switch between them for those programs
20:12:33 <b_jonas> I tried dvorak for a few weeks, but decided I don't want it
20:12:43 <b_jonas> might still experiment with some nonstandard layouts some time in the future
20:13:00 <rain1> i do have caps lock for switching
20:14:16 <b_jonas> the keycaps shouldn't matter. just don't look at the keycaps, and perhaps put a layout poster on the wall for a few weeks while you get used to it so you can reference it quickly
20:14:28 <b_jonas> I used a dead-tree poster to learn dvorak
20:16:08 <rain1> ive been using dvorak for many years but i think the keycaps do matter
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20:19:25 <zzo38> Can you use system call emulation to avoid the bug with epoll_wait? (Better would be to fix the bug in the kernel, if it can, though, I suppose)
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20:21:36 <myname> keycaps don't really matter
20:21:48 <zzo38> I think many programs are designed to be used with qwerty, although in many cases you can customize the key bindings anyways
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20:33:54 <b_jonas> rain1: keycaps matter for the rare keys, like printscreen, I always get confused where that one is; and for learning
20:34:13 <b_jonas> keycaps also matter if you have one of these stupid keyboards that just rearranges the normal layout for no reason
20:34:20 <b_jonas> but I just don't want to buy those
20:34:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the classic example for that is wordstar, it's definitely designed for qwerty
20:42:22 <zzo38> Yes, and some other DOS programs are designed to use keys similar to Wordstar too
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21:51:51 <int-e> . o O ( Turbo Pascal IDE )
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22:34:12 <shachaf> I apt installed Free Pascal the other day.
22:34:27 <shachaf> It has the classic Turbo Pascal look. It's great.
22:34:32 <shachaf> Maybe Pascal is just a good language?
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22:55:51 <arseniiv> shachaf: does it try to have features like in Scala, C# etc.? I tend to associate Pascal and Delphi with something which is not comfortable to code in because of a squareish type system, lack of closures etc.. I heard Delphi has risen from the earth but I hope Free Pascal would be even better. If it has cool fuctional features surely I’m going to read about it more in the future!
22:56:12 <shachaf> I don't know.
22:56:18 <shachaf> I don't want most of the features in Scala.
22:57:50 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I used a dead-tree poster to learn dvorak => have you felt it a useful system?
22:58:30 <arseniiv> I type with two index fingers and even can do so blind when the keyboard don’t changes its location too much
22:59:05 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I tried dvorak for a few weeks, but decided I don't want it => ah, sorry, didn’t read that in time
23:00:28 <arseniiv> shachaf: I don’t know Scala’s features to the full extent so maybe it was a bad example language, yep
23:00:44 <shachaf> Should I use it instead of C, for example?
23:01:10 <arseniiv> don’t changes => oof grammar why don’t you love me
23:01:37 <arseniiv> shachaf: Scala definitely no, or are you about Free pascal?
23:01:48 <shachaf> Free Pascal.
23:02:58 <arseniiv> then I’ll second you on that. If it allows that I would have a big benefit from learning it, to write small self-contained cross-platform utility programs at least
23:03:57 <arseniiv> as I don’t want to touch C even when it’s definitely simpler than C++ and maybe even has less strange quirks
23:04:37 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77844&oldid=77841 * SoicBR * (-2) /* The Stack */
23:04:44 <arseniiv> but if today’s Pascal not strong enough then I’ll try to live without both
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23:24:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I found that it might be useful for English, but I had to type text in Hungarian too, and it doesn't work well for that. the design of dvorak is based on two things: common letters on easy to reach positions, and vowels on one hand while common consonants on the other so you alternate your hands most of the time. you could designe something based on that for Hungarian, but it would have to
23:24:32 <b_jonas> look different from dvorak.
23:24:49 <b_jonas> I do know at least one person who uses a close variant of dvorak for Hungarian too though.
23:25:42 <b_jonas> I type with nine or ten fingers, except if I need to type when I'm eating with my left hand, in which case I type with all five fingers of my right hand.
23:26:01 <b_jonas> or, rarely, all five fingers of my right hand plus my left pinky
23:30:49 <b_jonas> M:tG stuff: so apparently there are three 3/2 creatures for 1G without drawbacks. The first one was Terrain Elemental from Kaladesh, a vanilla; then Kraul Harpooner from Guilds of Ravnica; and now Tajuru Paragon from Zendikar Rising, which is an Elf Warrior. This is the last nail on Elvish Warrior's coffin.
←2020-10-04 2020-10-05 2020-10-06→ ↑2020 ↑all