00:04:29 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78237&oldid=78201 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* M */ Add osminee's language minasm
00:49:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Y5n * New user account
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01:07:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Not applicable * New user account
01:12:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78238&oldid=78191 * Not applicable * (+121)
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12:06:41 <wib_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not sure I've seen higher-degree bounded automata in the wild" => they don't come up often in theory because PSPACE covers a lot of things, and if you go above, in practical cases there's usually some space vs time tradeoff that does allow you to use fewer memory with excessive runtime.
12:09:04 <wib_jonas> we do at least have problems designed to require a large amount of memory for small input size, in the practical cryptographics sense, which is used to hash passwords such that if the hased version is stolen the attacker can't compute dictionary attacks much faster on expensive parallel GPU array hardware than you can on your cheap computer,
12:09:05 <wib_jonas> because the GPU array won't have the required amount of RAM.
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12:18:08 <wib_jonas> ais523: let me get back to your question from yesterday and try to give specific answers. for windows cmd, for the arguments of the program, as far as I know, the punctuations !#$'*+,-./:;=?@[]_`{}~ are safe anywhere, but the rest are a bit ugly and hard to quote. I believe to quote any ascii printable string, you put a backslash before any
12:18:09 <wib_jonas> backslash or double quote, replace % with the four characters "^%" , and then put double quotes around the whole arguments.
12:18:37 <ais523> huh, ^ is safe in quotes on Windows?
12:19:27 <wib_jonas> the double quotes hold the argument together so it's not split on words, as well as removes the special meaning of &^()<>| , and of course you have to escape the double quote and backslash themselves, BUT % is still special inside double quotes and you can't escape it with a backslash
12:20:04 <wib_jonas> the ugly part is that % can't be protected by double quotes, and space can't be escaped by a circumflex
12:20:25 <wib_jonas> this comes from how windows passes only a single command-line argument string at some point, and it's split later
12:21:13 <wib_jonas> also, if you call the system function from C or perl or python, you have to surround the program path with double quotes and THEN put a second double quote at the very beginning of the command line. I don't know why, it just works that way.
12:26:28 <wib_jonas> on unix/POSIX sh, the ascii punctuation %+,-./:=@^]_}~ are safe in arguments; but note that some of these aren't safe in the program name itself, because ^ can start history expansion, = can assign env-vars, % can do job control, and there are a lot of built-in command names, so escaping special program names is another matter; then ! is safe
12:26:29 <wib_jonas> except sometimes in interactive shells, but there are settings that make them safe even in interactive shells; { is safe in sh but if you start bash as bash rather than sh then it enables the brace expansion setting by default and then it's unsafe; and the rest "#$&'()*;<>?[\`| you should basically always espcae with double quotes or single quotes
12:26:29 <wib_jonas> or backslashes, though there are contexts when they're safe
12:27:32 <wib_jonas> ~ is also unsafe in a lot of paces
12:27:38 <wib_jonas> so you have to escape ~ in posix shells too
12:27:54 <wib_jonas> so %+,-./:=@]^_} are safe in posix shells or bash
12:28:48 <wib_jonas> and those characters are also safe in command-line arguments in makefiles, though again in command name position they can have special meanings
12:30:04 <wib_jonas> so, even though I recommend you to double-quote everything, because the rules are saner that way, if you really don't want to quote anything, then ascii letters and digits and the punctuations +,-./:=@]_} are safe on both cmd and sh and bash,
12:30:19 <wib_jonas> but as I explained yesterday, you shouldn't interpret that as "safe everywhere", because there's no such thing
12:30:40 <wib_jonas> and all this is only as far as I understand and with no warranty
12:31:29 <myname> gonna build a shell that's more rstrictive than posix
12:32:04 <wib_jonas> though now I'll have to check when exactly ^ can trigger history expansion in bash
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12:37:09 <esowiki> [[Asparagus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78239 * Not applicable * (+637) created, is working on an interpreter, and i dont think anybody will find this page so i think it is safe to keep it here for now dont know where to put it though blah blah blah
12:37:16 <wib_jonas> ok I have officially no clue when ! and ^ are recognized as history expansion, even after reading the manpage. I only know how to turn history expansion off, and that it's off by default in non-interactive shelsl
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12:37:55 <wib_jonas> and of course any of this can be false if you give bash enough nonstandard settings earlier in the file, but luckily bashrc and similar initialization files aren't read in a non-interactive session
12:37:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Asparagus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78240 * Not applicable * (+34) Created page with "uhh how do i mark a page as a stub"
12:38:22 <wib_jonas> because apparently you can set the history expansion trigger character to anything, it needn't be !
12:38:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Asparagus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78241&oldid=78240 * Not applicable * (+104)
12:42:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Asparagus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78242&oldid=78241 * Ais523 * (+201) how to mark a page as a stub
12:43:17 <ais523> myname: I think most of zsh's best-known features are also available in bash nowadays (often not by default, though); are there lesser-known advantages?
12:44:00 <ais523> wib_jonas: also I'm pretty sure that ! is one of the most dangerous characters in existence to bash, not only can it trigger history expansion, it's also hard to escape
12:45:16 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, that's my opinion too, though someone on this channel did mention some file expansion feature they used in zsh that's indeed not in bash, I think expanding a list of non-directory files, and the equivalent of @(a{137..99999}b) which expands to any file with a then a decimal number with no leading zeroes that is 137 or more then b.
12:46:49 <wib_jonas> so if someone wants to use those, I can see there may be some use, but I for one don't think zsh is worth for me to learn, so I'm sticking bash for simpler stuff, and perl or python etc for more complex cases. mostly because I want to use programs with windows-native interfaces on windows, not ones that try to sort of pretend that you're in a
12:46:49 <wib_jonas> half-assed POSIX system on which many features are broken.
12:48:34 <wib_jonas> I mean what's the fucking point of pretending to be on a POSIX system if you're on an operating system where write doesn't immediately update the file's mtime? there are so many glaring holes that I'd rather port some of my scripts to exactly two systems, native windows and unix-like systems, than try to use the half-assed compatibility stuff
12:48:54 <wib_jonas> especially because most of my scripts only have to run on one of those.
12:55:46 <ais523> I used to use bash on Windows, only because cmd and command.com were both terrible
12:56:01 <ais523> and I wanted something that was actually usable as a shell
12:57:18 <wib_jonas> ais523: they are terrible, so I write a lot of things as perl or python scripts when they'd be simple shell one-liners in unix
12:59:15 <wib_jonas> I do that even for simple loops that would technically be possible to write in cmd
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13:24:44 <esowiki> [[Quine (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78243&oldid=73700 * Not applicable * (+0) fixed speleng
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13:49:12 <wib_jonas> interesting, so apparently I'm allowed to have an empty array where the type of the members of the arrays is an enum with no variants, but I'm not allowed to construct an empty array whose member type is too huge. the two types are uninhabited in different ways according to the compiler.
13:50:53 <wib_jonas> I'm not allowed to even std::mem::size_of the latter empty array
14:04:57 <ais523> does anyone here have opinions on forward-confirmed reverse DNS (as an email filtering mechanism)?
14:05:06 <ais523> I was considering adding it to my mailserver, but am worried about false positives
14:11:06 <ais523> ah right, it fails on outlook.com (which has a ridiculous configuration), that's a large enough mail provider that it probably can't be turned on
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14:15:48 <ais523> blame Microsoft for ruining everything for everyone again :-(
14:17:47 <ais523> it would be interesting to see a complete list of major email providers for which it fails; I suspect it's more likely to succeed for minor email providers than major email providers
14:17:59 <ais523> gmail and Yahoo! mail both pass it, those were easy enought to check
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14:39:47 <esowiki> [[Coeus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78244&oldid=77790 * Tetrapyronia * (+0)
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15:12:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Coeus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78245 * OsmineYT * (+313) Created page with "I decided to make discussion because no one has made it. -- ~~~~ <s>also check [[minasm]]</s> -- ~~~~"
15:12:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Coeus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78246&oldid=78245 * OsmineYT * (+1)
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16:03:16 <esowiki> [[Template:ItalicTitle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78247&oldid=78224 * SunnyMoon * (+1) Oh
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23:33:31 <esowiki> [[Asparagus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78248&oldid=78239 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Category a
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