←2020-12-03 2020-12-04 2020-12-05→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:50:11 <moony> `? hth
00:50:17 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
00:54:49 <moony> `? hackeso
00:54:50 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
00:54:55 <moony> `? hackego
00:54:56 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
00:55:47 <int-e> Regarding an AoC #esoteric leaderboard... I try hard not to be competetive about this. So I'm rather disinclined.
00:57:48 <int-e> Not that that should stop anybody. But it won't be large enough for lurking anonymously (in contrast to the #haskell one which I did actually join)
01:08:01 <esowiki> [[Befreak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79117&oldid=79115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) link
01:13:03 <zzo38> (I don't know how common it is to load EPUB files in Firefox in this way.)
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03:35:25 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+719) Created page with "Flipfractal is an experimental variant of [[Memfractal]], which was created by [[User:Zzo38]]. It takes ideas from [[BackFlip]] and the Memfractal specifications by User:Cam..."
03:36:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79119&oldid=79106 * Delta23 * (+18) add flipfractal
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03:45:08 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79120&oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+88) Add truth machine example
03:52:41 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79121&oldid=79120 * Delta23 * (+172) Minor details
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04:44:49 <esowiki> [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79122&oldid=79105 * Hakerh400 * (+84) /* Hello, world! */
04:45:39 <zzo38> What camera settings should be used to take pictures of Christmas lights?
04:47:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79123&oldid=79090 * Hakerh400 * (+66) +[[Expensive]]
04:50:36 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79124&oldid=79123 * Hakerh400 * (+48) +[[Flipfractal]]
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06:39:28 <int-e> okay I can't complain that the second AoC part wasn't harder today
06:39:41 <int-e> the new complaint is that it's so mundane
07:22:36 <zzo38> I can run Hero Mesh on DOSBOX, but it is slow.
07:23:36 <zzo38> (I would like to have more testers for Free Hero Mesh)
07:24:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like A Monster's Expedition?
07:25:18 <zzo38> I don't know.
07:25:51 <zzo38> (I don't know what it is, either, and I did not find it on Wikipedia, either)
07:32:19 <shachaf> Oh, it's a puzzle computer game.
07:33:53 <zzo38> OK
07:39:08 <shachaf> `? this
07:39:10 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
07:39:32 <shachaf> i,i `learn This month, this is A Monster's Expedition. Do you like this?
07:53:21 <zzo38> In Hero Mesh (and also in Free Hero Mesh once it is completed), you can rewind as much as you want, and you can also edit the move list to insert or delete moves. So far, I think most FOSS puzzle games don't do this.
07:53:59 <int-e> xsok did it ages ago :P
07:54:17 <int-e> (though "editing" is maybe a bit of a stretch)
07:54:30 <zzo38> Yes, maybe some do, but it would seem that most don't (although most proprietary puzzle games also don't)
07:54:40 <int-e> (but the binary save file format isn't hard to read and write)
07:56:58 <zzo38> Sokoban is strictly turn based and deterministic, like Hero Mesh is, though.
07:57:35 <int-e> AME is also strictly turn based
07:58:09 <int-e> And borrows the basic push-only Sokoban mechanic... and then goes surprisingly wild with it.
07:58:35 <zzo38> Yes, and some other games too
08:00:44 <zzo38> I found the documentation for xsok now.
08:03:00 <int-e> xsok was an addiction for me... I've patched it (adding more level sets, fixing a couple of bugs, modifying the pixmaps, most notably to make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not)...
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08:09:30 <int-e> and I've spent 100s of hours optimizing solutions by hand
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08:14:36 <zzo38> There are some of the features like Hero Mesh in xsok, although xsok isn't as versatile (although it does allow customizing the scoring definition). That includes the attributes Strength (called Power in xsok) and Weight, and a few other things.
08:15:31 <zzo38> Maybe it also might be possible later converting xsok levels into Free Hero Mesh, too.
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08:22:21 <zzo38> Automatically testing it also it seem to be possible (also for conversions from Hero Mesh to Free Hero Mesh, too); if you have a recording of the moves of the solution, it can check that it is a valid solution.
08:23:00 <int-e> translucent boxes in action: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/xbox.png
08:23:33 <int-e> (the actor is so ugly...)
08:24:35 <zzo38> Yes, that is good that the boxes is translucent now.
08:25:30 <int-e> these are my own private changes though :P
08:25:53 <zzo38> Yes, the actor isn't so good, and I don't like the floor graphics so much either
08:26:44 <int-e> though I suppose replacing an installed xpm file is a no-brainer
08:28:46 <int-e> so if you care: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/objects.xpm.gz
08:28:49 <zzo38> Most programs that deal with XPM do not support all of its features (although my own implementation implements more than most do, still it doesn't implement the Lisp format)
08:30:27 <int-e> Oh right, xsok had a box you can step into... a bit like a fully turned over table in Hiding Place
08:30:44 <int-e> (including the possibility to push it around with another box)
08:35:50 <zzo38> Unlike xsok (and maybe some others), Free Hero Mesh is using that the definitions for classes of objects can contain program codes to be executed, when it receives a message.
08:38:03 <zzo38> (Some of the ideas in xsok are things I had thought of too independently to implement in Free Hero Mesh, such as the bookmark. I had also thought of custom scoring, but I am not sure if I will implement that.)
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10:02:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sertdfyguhi * New user account
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10:47:21 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79125&oldid=79074 * Aspwil * (+159) /* Instructions */
10:47:35 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79126&oldid=79125 * Aspwil * (+3) /* Instructions */
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11:32:11 <rain1> ooof day 4 would be a hassle in C
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11:43:22 <Arcorann> I wonder how many people are doing AoC in esolangs this year
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12:04:36 <Taneb> I'm aware of someone doing it in Nix and someone doing it in APL but neither of them are quite esolangs
12:07:26 <shachaf> Taneb: Haneb
12:07:45 <shachaf> Invent anything lately?
12:08:59 <Hooloovo0> I think there's a couple people on the TI channels that are attempting it in TI-Basic
12:11:33 <shachaf> Is that the language used on the TI-83?
12:11:41 <shachaf> I think I wrote some programs in that to draw semifancy pictures.
12:13:33 <Arcorann> I saw someone put up a BBC Basic editor online --> https://bbcmic.ro/
12:15:02 <Hooloovo0> yeah, basically. as TI has moved to color it's changed a bit but not really that much
12:15:25 <Taneb> shachaf: I might have invented enriched categories this morning
12:15:26 <Hooloovo0> for most of the AoC stuff it's not that different I think?
12:15:52 <shachaf> Taneb: Niceo McMiceo, enriched over what?
12:16:42 <Taneb> I started with the (R, +, <=) as an ordered monoid as a monoidal poset and worked up from there
12:16:55 <Taneb> (I was thinking about metric spaces)
12:19:05 <Taneb> (and in particular, why they use the real numbers)
12:21:22 <fizzie> I think I wrote something semifancy in the TI-86 dialect of TI-Basic too.
12:21:58 <fizzie> And our maths teacher was incredibly enthusiastic about it. He had one of those slide projector attachments for his TI-85-or-86.
12:22:58 <fizzie> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-I-ViewScreen-85-Graphing-Calculator-Projector/181006275400
12:23:01 <fizzie> That kind of thing.
12:24:22 <fizzie> Also don't buy that one, there's a much cheaper listing for one as well. But maybe you're not in the market for it anyway.
12:28:34 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79127&oldid=79121 * Delta23 * (+168) add smaller Truth Machine variant with differing design
12:32:25 <shachaf> What happened was: My classmate showed me a program he'd written on his calculator that drew fractals or something, and I was impressed, and made my own version of the idea with some tweaks.
12:32:43 <shachaf> Later it turned out that the program, line for line, was in the calculator manual, which I'd never seen.
12:33:50 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real?
12:34:42 <Taneb> shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis
12:34:51 <shachaf> Ah, that seems likely.
12:35:41 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you saw https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 from a while ago.
12:35:48 <shachaf> Which that website is really not the best place for.
12:36:13 <shachaf> The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly.
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12:39:30 <Arcorann> I remember in high school optimising the Factor12 and that probability-related program that got passed around the class
12:49:22 <Hooloovo0> fizzie I've already got a viewscreen 86 :)
12:49:45 <Hooloovo0> been a while since I've done any 85/86 programming, I should get back into it but you know how projects go
12:51:35 <Hooloovo0> (I really should get an overhead projector so I can display them properly)
12:51:48 <Hooloovo0> s/them/my viewscreens)
13:10:58 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79128&oldid=79127 * Delta23 * (+273) Add computational class ideas (tree stack automata?)
13:13:10 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79129&oldid=79128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) kl
13:15:45 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79130&oldid=79129 * Delta23 * (+330) add more information
13:19:12 <esowiki> [[State and Main]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79131&oldid=74324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Truth-machine */ add notice
13:21:25 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79132&oldid=74002 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) cats
13:25:10 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79133&oldid=79130 * Delta23 * (+253) Change it to Torus program space and add multithreaded variant
13:25:55 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79134&oldid=67742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Implementation */ c
13:30:25 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79135&oldid=79133 * Delta23 * (+85) add blackhole instruction
13:38:03 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79136&oldid=79135 * Delta23 * (+244) blackhole is optional + reasoning
13:39:49 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79137&oldid=79134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+198) Add a [[truth-machine]]
13:41:21 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79138&oldid=79124 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Grawlix */ [[Gregorovich]]
13:43:46 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79139&oldid=71278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Examples */ hm
13:53:02 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79140&oldid=72672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Builtins */ clarify
13:54:09 <esowiki> [[Uack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79141&oldid=71604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Examples */ cat
14:05:11 <arseniiv_> shachaf: Taneb: I thought any ordered field (and adding ±∞ for ∞-metric spaces) would do, and reals are just one very useful celebrity. But if I’m not mistaken, you can use “ℚ-metric spaces” to define ℝ itself as a legit (ℚ-)metric completion (of ℚ). Then as ℚ is minimal, you can’t get any simpler, but you also probably don’t want things like ℚ[√5, √71]. There *could* be sense to use algebraic numbers, though (in computa
14:05:11 <arseniiv_> tional stuff?). There also may be reason to use something finer than ℝ but that will be non-Archimedean, as you know, and maybe that bars many possile applications, compared with ℝ, algebraics or ℚ
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14:07:20 <arseniiv> also please tell if I shouldn’t use ℝ and ℚ characters if they display poorly (they do for me)
14:07:36 <arseniiv> (I think not many fonts have them)
14:10:05 <arseniiv> but I think I doesn’t know much more about why there is ℝ. Hopefully these reasons (barring historical ones) are convincing enough. They convince me maybe 4/5 through
14:10:33 <arseniiv> but I think I doesn’t know => wow how did I write that
14:14:08 <rain1> what's this about?
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14:24:21 <b_jonas> `olist 1221
14:24:22 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:25:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: are the Christmas lights steady or flashing?
14:33:02 <arseniiv> rain1: <Taneb> (I was thinking about metric spaces) <Taneb> (and in particular, why they use the real numbers) <shachaf> Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real? <Taneb> shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis
14:33:35 <arseniiv> hm I should have linked to logs but I’m lazy :D
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14:40:36 <rain1> hmm
14:41:02 <rain1> it's a good question
14:41:26 <rain1> I think it is because the real numbers are a unique ordered field with limits
14:48:18 <arseniiv> rain1: non-archimedean ordered fields necessary have non-unique limits?
14:48:42 <Taneb> arseniiv: the definition of metric space seems to only require an ordered monoid, none of the laws refer to multiplication, division, or even subtraction
14:52:26 <arseniiv> Taneb: yeah, though surely there will be some reason why just monoid is too weak for many occasions. Though right now I don’t have an argument even why it would be good for it to be a semiring
14:54:17 <Taneb> I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total
14:55:28 <b_jonas> I know some puzzle games that at least let you undo steps for free: Baba is you, and tom7's Escape
14:56:18 <b_jonas> int-e: "make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not" => some sokoban games use a custom tile for a box on a target
14:57:56 <Taneb> arseniiv: possibly for any ordered monoid M, an M-metric space is equivalent to some R-metric space?
14:58:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Snakebird too
14:59:29 <b_jonas> "enriched categories" => with savory spices?
14:59:36 <arseniiv> Taneb: if that monoid comes to be hyperreals, it should be impossible but I’m not totally sure
15:00:36 <Taneb> arseniiv: that seems correct
15:02:08 <b_jonas> "The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly." => yep. long ago I asked why homotopy was defined in a way that depended on the real numbers. I got partial answers.
15:04:42 <arseniiv> Taneb: then we may try to characterise which ordered monoids sit inside reals and which don’t, maybe it can still be expressed in a useful way
15:05:20 <arseniiv> or maybe we should take extended reals R ∪ {±∞} already
15:06:15 <arseniiv> they are necessary to make (undirected) graphs into so-called ∞-metric spaces. I’d rather define usual metric spaces as these from the start, though
15:07:07 <arseniiv> as infinite distance is frequently necessary in practical applications (it seems for me)
15:07:46 <arseniiv> well at least [weighted] graphs would take a big chunk by themselves
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15:11:25 <arseniiv> <Taneb> I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total => BTW several months ago I tried to formalize cyclical and total orders as two kinds of the general thing, though that ended up too useless
15:13:24 <arseniiv> it was based on that you can inject some total order as a kind of a segment/interval in that space. The definition tried to capture all the intervals in that space
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15:13:39 <arseniiv> maybe the idea would be interesting to somebody
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15:16:35 <arseniiv> actually, not just intervals but “paths which don’t skip elements”, as you can walk circles on, well, a circle
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15:20:13 <Taneb> ...what do you mean by cyclical order?
15:22:45 <arseniiv> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_order
15:22:54 <arseniiv> (also there is a partial one too)
15:22:59 <Taneb> Ah, I'd not encountered that before
15:25:16 <arseniiv> Z/nZ are ubiquitous examples of this but I hadn’t seen the general notion until recently too
15:26:23 <arseniiv> Z/nZ-the-rings
16:14:02 <int-e> shachaf: 385 and still no end. also I'm now on an island with no clue what to do.
16:18:45 <int-e> (well I do have an objective in mind... it wouldn't be the first time that that objective is wrong. open world effect...)
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17:06:53 <b_jonas> eye color and *hair color* are required fields? and name and issuer and passport types aren't? funny
17:06:57 <b_jonas> also height
17:19:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Joman522 * New user account
17:25:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79142&oldid=79109 * Joman522 * (+207) /* Introductions */
17:27:09 <b_jonas> hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa says that the Leaning Tower of Pisa was declared "stabled for at least another 300 years" in 2001-12, and later declared "stable for at least 200 years" in 2008-05. a naive linear interpolation suggests that we should visit the tower soon, because it will be declared potentially unsafe during next year.
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18:41:46 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79143&oldid=79136 * Delta23 * (+68) add tree stack access program example
18:45:24 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79144&oldid=79143 * Delta23 * (+28) make important note of behavior, could be used for TC proof
18:52:28 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+6780) Created page with "Creating IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang (can be shortened to ITAMFSARL) is an esoteric programming language created december 12, 2020 by [[User:SoicBR]] which..."
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18:59:22 <arseniiv> BTW en.wikipedia states: “If the distance function takes values in some (suitable) ordered set (and the triangle inequality is adjusted accordingly), then we arrive at the notion of generalized ultrametric.”
19:00:46 <esowiki> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79146&oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+98)
19:06:53 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79147&oldid=79144 * Delta23 * (+385) Add abstract machine within flipfractal
19:11:31 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79148&oldid=79147 * Delta23 * (+122) note
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20:09:41 <zzo38> b_jonas: Some Christmas lights are flashy and some aren't, including the ones together
20:12:19 <b_jonas> so they are flashy. that's more difficult because it's hard to show the flashing pattern on a static photo. but christmas lights can be hard in first place because they're dark and so visible only when the rest of the scene is dark
20:13:58 <b_jonas> but I don't think they have any really special tricks besides the usual low light photos. use a tripod if you can't hold the camera steady enough, hold the camera steady with two hands under and stick to 0.5 seconds exposure if you don't have a tripod
20:14:49 <b_jonas> if you do have a tripod, you might try to take two pictures, one for the lights and one for the background, and compose them later.
20:15:23 <zzo38> They are incandescent lights
20:17:18 <zzo38> The lights appear too bright compared with the rest of the picture
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21:00:55 <b_jonas> int-e: I like this mundane data validation. it's the sort of thing that I do at work every day. it's rewarding. I keep finding problems in things that are in production and that other people have supposedly "tested" and signed off as working. sometimes it never worked, more often it's about new features that got added after those supposed "tests", but added in a half-assed way that doesn't really make
21:01:01 <b_jonas> them work.
21:01:47 <b_jonas> except of course I don't get this nice specification about what counts as valid, that's the part that I have to write. coding it is the easy part.
21:02:08 <b_jonas> and usuall there are much more complicated relations that have to be held, involving joins, instead of just single field values.
21:02:17 <b_jonas> but still, it's just about this mundane
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21:25:25 <esowiki> [[Ackermann function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79149&oldid=57452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-50) wikipedia link
21:29:41 <esowiki> [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79150&oldid=62923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) definition, stub, cat
21:35:51 <esowiki> [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79151&oldid=67600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) This isn't very well a program form
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21:38:51 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79152&oldid=71479 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Spreading */
21:39:31 <esowiki> [[Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79153&oldid=73008 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) hm...
21:42:21 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79154&oldid=70216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Computational class */ example + links
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21:48:35 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79155&oldid=79154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* External resources */ cat, waybacks
21:50:10 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79156&oldid=66884 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Unbounded programs */ I hardly see how this is a stub
21:56:07 <esowiki> [[Binary lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79157&oldid=70655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) code, link
21:59:15 <esowiki> [[Quadratic sync problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79158&oldid=62891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Computational class */ cat
22:00:02 <esowiki> [[Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79159&oldid=68215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat (please correct if wrong)
22:00:25 <esowiki> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79160&oldid=75841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) cat link
22:03:19 <esowiki> [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79161&oldid=79148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) clean up a bit
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22:25:24 <esowiki> [[Spice]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79162 * Slord * (+2396) Created page with "== Summary == A programming language for 'Golfing' in an assembly-like/lite environment. - Spice is an interpreted assembly-like language with a handful of operators: ADD, `S..."
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22:41:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79163&oldid=79119 * Slord * (+12)
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