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00:50:41 <esowiki> [[1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79309&oldid=73305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Implementations */ list,cat
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02:52:10 <esowiki> [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79310&oldid=79294 * Tetrapyronia * (-6)
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04:56:13 <int-e> shachaf: so many islands... 509 now, still missing a few dozen I think
04:59:28 <int-e> and they're getting harder to reach too
04:59:52 <int-e> and there's still a couple of mechanical surprises
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05:08:04 <LegionMammal978> This AoC was pretty fun (somehow, I managed to get #14 on the first leaderboard)
05:09:59 <LegionMammal978> Writing interpreters for BF-like languages (i.e., one character per instruction + simple memory model) was definitely good practice
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05:47:22 <int-e> So what shall we call the new virtual machine... HGC for Handheld Game Controller?
05:48:03 <int-e> . o O ( It should have a 720x348 monochrome display. )
05:53:33 <shachaf> I would say that this AoC is quite well-ordered so far. It definitely has a basis.
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06:06:54 <int-e> shachaf: I was looking for a particular island I was playing around on yesterday. I didn't find it :-/
06:07:29 <int-e> (though I got sidetracked a bit because I found other ideas while looking)
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08:36:46 <HackEso> economics:Economics is just applied numerology.
08:37:30 <int-e> `learn Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology.
08:37:33 <HackEso> Learned 'economic': Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology.
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08:54:48 <zzo38> Is there a term in Magic: the Gathering that can refer to both players and objects, in general? They have some things in common, such as counters, possibility to be damaged (although only some objects can be damaged), possibility to be a target, and possibility for permanents to be attached to it.
09:02:46 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+1163) Created page with "'''Firstreplace''' is an accidental<sup>1</sup> [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:Abyxlrz|Abyxlrz]]. (1) It is accidental because i was trying to make a interp..."
09:04:12 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79312&oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+82)
09:04:28 <shachaf> Huh, they changed the phrasing.
09:04:57 <shachaf> E.g. Shock used to say "target creature or player", and now it says "to any target".
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09:06:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79313&oldid=79299 * Abyxlrz * (+19)
09:07:26 <int-e> shachaf: '115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, or planeswalkers. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can’t be chosen.'
09:07:56 <int-e> So the change allows planeswalkers to be targeted as well.
09:08:08 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure planeswalkers could already be targeted.
09:08:26 <int-e> If you say "creature or player" then planeswalkers are excluded.
09:08:32 <shachaf> Maybe you targeted the player and redirected the damage or something?
09:08:38 <shachaf> There was definitely a way to damage planeswalkers.
09:09:01 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79314&oldid=78053 * Abyxlrz * (+17)
09:09:10 <shachaf> Yes: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/03/goodbye-planeswalker-redirection-rule-mtg-dominaria/
09:09:15 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79315&oldid=79314 * Abyxlrz * (+4)
09:09:32 <shachaf> "The Planeswalker redirection rule was implemented in Lorwyn with the introduction of the first Planeswalker cards. The rule states that you cannot directly target a Planeswalker with damage dealing spells—instead, you must target a player and then redirect the damage from that player to a Planeswalker they control."
09:10:02 <int-e> Ow, that sounds awkware.
09:10:13 <shachaf> It meant you could decide at resolution time instead of targeting time.
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09:10:24 <int-e> "awkware" is an akward spelling of "awkward".
09:10:37 <shachaf> And also that the spell wouldn't fizzle if the planeswalker was gone at resolution time, I suppose.
09:10:41 <int-e> yeah apparently they got rid of that
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09:11:04 <shachaf> So it is a functional change, maybe slightly for the worse, but surely better for the game overall.
09:11:12 <shachaf> I heard they even deprecated regenerate!
09:11:50 <shachaf> Maybe one day you'll be able to play Standard and not have to know a zillion obscure rules to play correctly.
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09:23:13 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79316&oldid=79312 * Abyxlrz * (+39)
09:40:29 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79317&oldid=79316 * Abyxlrz * (+93)
09:42:28 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79318&oldid=79317 * Abyxlrz * (+42)
10:07:40 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79319&oldid=79318 * Abyxlrz * (+35)
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10:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79320&oldid=74940 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+205) /* Input\Output format */ new section
10:38:30 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79321 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1342) Created page with "'''Dotter''' is a stack-based esoteric language created by me in 2020. ==Commands== * <code>..............[ascii]</code>: pushes ascii as a character to the end of the stack...."
10:39:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79322&oldid=79313 * Sertdfyguhi * (+13)
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11:24:43 <fizzie> Does it mean something that there's a gap between 8 and 9 on the calendar page? I don't think that was there before.
11:25:21 <fizzie> It might just mean that the pretty picture just didn't fit well to 25 lines, I guess.
11:30:07 <fizzie> But it *could* mean there's going to be 3 somehow distinct stages (3*8 = 24), plus a special 25th day thing as usual.
11:33:29 <fizzie> Also, first instance of panic for my solutions this year. Last year had a bunch: http://ix.io/2H8M (theoretically contains a really minor spoiler about what the task of part 2 will be, in case you haven't done it yet)
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12:19:17 <int-e> fizzie: maybe we're speeding up as things go downhill
12:25:49 <fizzie> Also did another GraphViz graph for today's example, can't help myself: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png (again, one aspect of that could be considered a bit spoilery for what part 2's question is)
12:54:10 <int-e> Arcorann_: we don't know where that island is yet
12:55:31 <int-e> I think I see what you mean. My bad
12:55:43 <int-e> I saw a hill, never considered that the blue would be water.
12:56:22 <int-e> I agree. South it is, then.
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12:58:13 <int-e> Unfortunately that deprives me of the reason why we would speed up.
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13:21:43 <Arcorann_> I guess it'd be because we got on a bigger plane
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13:30:21 <int-e> Oh I skipped the fluff today. "interrupted by the kid sitting next to you" ... I hate it when they do that.
13:31:09 <fizzie> Arcorann_: I wondered about that on day 6. "As your flight approaches the regional airport where you'll switch to a much larger plane --". The previous plane already had 1024 seats, and this one's "much larger"...
13:31:12 <int-e> (I don't recall it ever happened to me, actually.)
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13:32:33 <int-e> But do we know what species we are? I imagine a lot of elves would fit on an A380.
13:33:16 <fizzie> The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was.
13:33:44 <Arcorann_> Heights were basically normal human heights
13:34:02 <int-e> fizzie: Well, we know the bounds for validity which were human-sized.
13:34:13 <int-e> So there goes that theory.
13:34:23 <int-e> Weights too, unfortunately.
13:34:34 <int-e> So much for that theory.
13:35:10 <fizzie> All the titles have so far been Alliterative Assortments too.
13:35:18 <int-e> Maybe the new plane is just a large, flat surface.
13:35:19 <fizzie> (Couldn't come up with a synonym for "pair" starting with a.)
13:36:10 <int-e> I missed the titles too.
13:36:43 <int-e> alternate... alternation... not quite, but it feels like there should be something
13:37:19 <int-e> well, alliterative alternation does not sound completely wrong to me
13:39:14 <int-e> (only mostly wrong)
13:41:50 <int-e> . o O ( rote repetition )
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14:20:41 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> […] The previous plane already had 1024 seats" => no, day 5 twist spec is quite clear that it has somewhat less than 1024 seats, but it indeed turns out to have about 900, so that's only a technical difference
14:21:25 <b_jonas> "The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was." => doesn't matter we have seen much less than the 900 passports, so there could be 300 humans and 600 kobolds on the plane
14:21:56 <b_jonas> the kobolds may be gated to a different security control area, with kobold-sized x-ray machine and kobold-height conveyor belt for the luggage
14:23:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the phrase you want is "Added Alliterative Appeal", see TVTROPES WARNING https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AddedAlliterativeAppeal
14:23:56 <b_jonas> or is it? I guess it's not, that's for a lot of alliteration in the text, it maybe be just https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlliterativeTitle
14:24:05 <int-e> b_jonas: That's cute, but we wanted a pair.
14:24:27 <int-e> Using something that *means* "pair"
14:24:40 <int-e> And that seems to be out of reach, in English at least.
14:25:00 <int-e> "Alliterative Appeal" is good though.
14:26:22 <b_jonas> int-e: Consonance Csomething?
14:27:53 <int-e> Though I'd really want an adjective there, which would be "Consonant Couple" which makes it look like a noun. Oops.
14:30:17 <b_jonas> Coding contest consonance, or AOC alliteration
14:31:38 <int-e> Hmm, I got no reaction to https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-08.html#lM *sniff*
14:32:23 <b_jonas> also some of you wanted an intcode
14:32:31 <b_jonas> you may have the first part of one
14:33:19 <int-e> Next up: memory and IO.
14:33:57 <int-e> maybe just a stack
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14:34:35 <int-e> A PDA should be powerful enough for AoC. And it even looks similar to a HGC.
14:36:18 <b_jonas> or just Added Alliteration
14:36:56 <b_jonas> int-e: a PDA, sure. a stack plus just one numeric register? no.
14:37:11 <b_jonas> not unless you get extra registers or access the stack deep enough.
14:38:33 <b_jonas> ok wait, I should solve the task first
14:39:46 <int-e> A stack gives you PDA power... a bit more if the register is an unbounded integer. In fact if you have division with remainder you can maybe even simulate a stack in the register, completing a tape and making it TC? Depends on the details, I guess.
14:40:40 <int-e> I also imagine there's a conditional jump around... otherwise things will be tricky.
14:41:09 <int-e> (so enough to implement any desired amount of finite control)
14:44:51 <int-e> I guess this TC idea hinges on being able to inspect the top stack element without modifying the accumulator, which can either be achieved by adding an additional register, or by adding an swapping operation for the two two stack elements
14:45:32 <int-e> or by specialized instructions that work on the top stack element instead of the accumulator... but that really feels like an extra register.
15:15:37 <int-e> Oh I may be wrong about needing a swap, it's really a question of the order of operands of `mod`. Consider `PUSH; PUSH; IMM 2; RMOD` which extracts the bottom bit of the accumulator if `RMOD` divides the top of the stack by the accumulator. So we can branch based on that value and then `POP` the accumulator.
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15:17:00 <int-e> `RDIV` can pop a bit off the accumulator-based stack. And `PUSH; ADD; ADD` can shift a bit from the stack into the accumulator.
15:17:00 <HackEso> RDIV`? No such file or directory
15:17:28 <int-e> (Another thing to be wary of.)
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16:22:57 <b_jonas> ok, I admit I totally mispredicted what the thist would be for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/8 , and my program suffered from that; it also suffered from a stupid unrelated bug though
16:25:14 <b_jonas> ok, so what do we call the interpreted language featured in this task? the task doesn't give a name like "Intcode" this time. do we just call it "Handheld halting" from the title of the task until they give a better name?
16:25:58 <b_jonas> or just "Handheld" because "halting" is the task, not the language?
16:38:31 <myname> does it need a language?
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16:40:52 <b_jonas> myname: it will, after a few more tasks, yes
16:41:05 <b_jonas> it perhaps doesn't need a short name yet, we could wait until the next task
16:41:34 <myname> currently it looks like a crappy assembler
16:42:27 <b_jonas> of course it's possible that they'll throw this language away and a next task will instead be running programs in an unrelated language
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17:22:38 <fizzie> I have a feeling they'd've provided a hint if this was to become a running theme this year.
17:26:23 <fizzie> (They did in day 2 part 2, 2019.)
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17:30:54 <fizzie> I'm also wondering whether everyone just did the obvious O(n^2) part 2, that's basically just n times part 1, because it's definitely not asymptotically optimal, but on the other hand it's perfectly reasonable.
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17:51:18 <shachaf> Oh, this points out some cards actually get worse in a way that can matter, due to not having their text changed: https://www.reddit.com/r/PonzaMTG/comments/83502o/psa_new_planeswalker_redirection_rule_nerfs_some/
17:51:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I did the obvious quadratic, because there are only 617 instructions in the ROM
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17:52:00 <fizzie> So did I, though I'm tempted to add an alternative solution as well.
17:53:19 <fizzie> For example, treating black edges as weight 0 and red edges as weight 1, finding the shortest path in the https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png representation should give the solution in O(n log n) time.
17:53:54 <b_jonas> I did skip rerunning the program for the 338 acc instrs though
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17:57:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I know there's a fast solution, yes.
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18:12:46 <shachaf> There are some regular languages that are very easy to express as NFAs but incredibly complicated as regular expressions. What's that about?
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18:21:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, we talked about them recently. search for http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html in the logs to find it. fizzie: I can't load the https://esolangs.org/logs , is it just me? 504 Gateway Time-out
18:24:20 <fizzie> There's something in the websocket support of the (C++) embedded web server serving the logs; either I'm using it wrong, or it has a bug.
18:24:45 <fizzie> Every now and then it goes into this mode where it just stops responding, and some gdb'ing suggested it's related to the stalker mode websocket stuff.
18:25:50 <fizzie> I can just restart it, that usually fixes it.
18:26:50 <fizzie> The problem is, it never breaks when I wouldn't have anything better to do than debug it. (Also, I'd need to build a binary with symbols, because "something with websockets" was the closest I could get to by attaching gdb to the binary without them.)
18:41:12 <arseniiv> played Heaven’s Vault a bit, looks interesting
18:41:44 <arseniiv> and also I played Snake Pass and my fingers are now broken (at least in my imagination)
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19:02:09 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hi, what’s new with that hyper-Malbolge of yours?
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19:35:17 <rain1> Snake Pass is awesome
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19:44:29 <arseniiv> rain1: did you use keyboard or a controller?
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19:46:16 <arseniiv> I totally liked how even in the first level there are coins to grab and I completely missed where they even are. I’ll probably try to find them the next time. On the second level, I grabbed one or two coins, I think, but missed one blobby thing though
19:46:35 <arseniiv> and the sighs Noodle makes are the best
19:48:32 <shachaf> Can't be missing blobby things.
19:49:13 <arseniiv> also I wonder if there is any help from a bought gecko in Heaven’s Vault. Would it come with Aliya and find something in some wall cracks or is it just a decoration now
19:49:57 <arseniiv> we traded two historical artifacts for it, that would be unfair
19:51:44 <arseniiv> rain1: ah, I’m on a keyboard (and mouse, it uses the left button to go and the right to grip), it’s probably harder though I hope I’ll train my hands after the several next playings
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19:55:07 <rain1> i think you need an analog controller
19:55:21 <rain1> or at least it makes it better
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21:05:49 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah it should be more appropriate for that kind of a game
21:06:48 <int-e> looks cute but too hard
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22:24:05 <zzo38> I don't like the planeswalker redirection rule so I think is good they changed that. However, I don't like the wording "any target" because it uses different phrasing than other targets and makes it not sufficiently general. In my own custom cards I am using "target damageable"; such things as "enchant damageable" are also allowed, and for the purpose of text changing effects (such as overload), "any target" used in that way is treated
22:25:59 <zzo38> It is not quite an answer to my original question, though.
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23:31:48 <zzo38> I am having some trouble with internet recently