←2020-12-10 2020-12-11 2020-12-12→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:40:16 <esowiki> [[Bub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79354&oldid=30822 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Here be stubs
00:47:11 <esowiki> [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79355&oldid=78854 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) t
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02:05:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79356&oldid=79269 * Tetrapyronia * (+207) Added Zeno
02:05:47 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79357&oldid=79270 * Tetrapyronia * (+11)
03:16:28 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (+1248) new language :)
03:17:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79359&oldid=79356 * Tetrapyronia * (+98) Added Cerberus
03:17:45 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79360&oldid=79357 * Tetrapyronia * (+30)
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05:26:15 <aaaaaa> Hi all. What ongoing zoom.us CS-confs are interesting? With a bias to esoteric PLs.
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05:34:15 <shachaf> https://sat-smt.in/ started about half an hour ago.
05:36:07 <aaaaaa> shachaf: yeah
05:36:54 <shachaf> I guess it's not really a conference.
05:37:12 <shachaf> It's very arguably related to #esoterica.
05:37:13 <aaaaaa> Anyway, what zoom confs do you attend? Wondering
05:37:13 <shachaf> Are you attending?
05:37:49 <aaaaaa> shachaf: waiting for Armin Biere :)
05:38:00 <shachaf> Aha.
05:38:06 <aaaaaa> shachaf: I do, this is why I'm asking, maybe there is something interesting as well as this
05:38:36 <shachaf> I'm watching the introductory talk but so far it's all basics.
05:38:37 <aaaaaa> virtual uni, so to say
05:38:44 <aaaaaa> shachaf: yes, basics
05:39:33 <shachaf> I don't know that I want to stay awake until 4 watching these talks.
05:40:00 <shachaf> It all seems a bit silly. If you're just watching a video being streamed, it's a worse experience than watching a recording, which you could watch at 2x speed or pause.
05:40:26 <aaaaaa> Maybe it's all will be uploaded here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm6e0ZSQt-C6iEhBV6TaEdA
05:40:56 <shachaf> Yes, that's what I expect.
05:41:01 <aaaaaa> Yeah, but you can ask a question in zoom
05:41:03 <shachaf> I guess the benefit is asking questions in real time or something.
05:41:05 <shachaf> Right.
05:41:25 <shachaf> So maybe that'd be a better format. I guess some conferences do it that way.
05:42:13 <shachaf> Maybe I should read kissat code to have good questions to ask.
05:43:12 <aaaaaa> Modern SAT solvers are not an easy piece of cake
05:43:29 <shachaf> I read some kissat code before.
05:43:43 <shachaf> I also wrote my own CDCL solver.
05:43:55 <aaaaaa> shachaf: if so, you can probably dive into kissat...
05:44:05 <shachaf> But maybe not in the next hour.
05:45:24 <shachaf> I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?
05:45:44 <aaaaaa> shachaf: dunno. I like this channel because like both CS and some eso-PLs
05:45:50 <imode> satisfied with satisfiability.
05:45:53 <aaaaaa> it's less formal than other CS channels
05:46:39 <shachaf> What are the neato CS channels?
05:46:57 <aaaaaa> shachaf: #cs, #algorithms, whatever on reddit
05:47:15 <aaaaaa> like full of too-seriuous professors
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07:39:21 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79361&oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (-4)
07:59:15 <aaaaaa> shachaf: Armin Biere starts his presentation on zoom
07:59:20 <aaaaaa> starting
07:59:47 <shachaf> I see it.
08:00:08 <shachaf> Hmm, what's your native language, if you have one?
08:00:29 <aaaaaa> huh
08:07:26 <int-e> . o O ( aren't they all artificial )
08:08:45 <shachaf> It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.
08:09:10 <aaaaaa> shachaf: Russian is. Yes, my English is still horrible...
08:09:32 <shachaf> No, I'm not complaining.
08:10:28 <shachaf> Man, kissat is just really good, huh.
08:11:07 <aaaaaa> shachaf: sure, Armin is one of the leading experts
08:12:13 <shachaf> It's too bad it doesn't support incremental solving.
08:12:24 <shachaf> Maybe it will in the future, I think it might've said.
08:13:02 <aaaaaa> MUS is also not supported, AFAIR.
08:13:28 <aaaaaa> The problem is that scientists' goal is to write solvers for competitions, not for real-world projects :(
08:13:45 <aaaaaa> So all they lack something
08:14:58 <int-e> but they source the competition problems from "industrial" sources, which supposedly have real-life relevance?
08:15:10 <int-e> hmm, sourcing from sources, brilliant
08:15:22 <aaaaaa> int-e: you're right indeed
08:15:37 <shachaf> hint-e
08:15:40 <shachaf> Are you attending the session?
08:17:32 <shachaf> I have no sense whether SAT/SMT solvers have actual relevance in industry.
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08:18:59 <aaaaaa> shachaf: they do. If you dig into SAT/SMT benchmarks, there are indeed loads of files from real projects...
08:21:21 <shachaf> aaaaaa: Hmm, is MUS important?
08:22:08 <aaaaaa> shachaf: dunno...
08:22:18 <aaaaaa> shachaf: but it has some use
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08:39:24 <shachaf> Why does this take it to NEXPTIME?
08:39:52 <int-e> `? mus
08:39:53 <HackEso> mus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:42:15 <shachaf> I think it stands for "Minimally Unsatisfiable Subformulas".
08:42:34 <int-e> Oh, a refinement of unsatisfiable cores.
08:44:00 <int-e> They're directly connected to minimal counterexamples, e.g. for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadwiger%E2%80%93Nelson_problem
08:46:05 <int-e> one of the citations there is: 'Heule, Marijn J.H. (2018), Computing Small Unit-Distance Graphs with Chromatic Number 5'... who is another big name in SAT solving.
08:47:00 <int-e> And that effort was all about taking a small-ish counterexample and minimizing it through SAT solving and extraction of unsatisfiable cores, iteratively.
08:47:34 <int-e> (That's without reading the paper, just from what I saw in the corresponding Polymath forum threads.)
08:49:01 <int-e> But also in practice you may benefit a lot from narrowing down contradictions (which may be programming errors) to a smaller set of constraints.
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13:07:46 <esowiki> [[Bet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79362&oldid=76786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) m
13:10:07 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79363&oldid=58231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* See Also */ cats
13:18:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think the difference here is video stream vs in person. the same is basically true for all the first-year basic theoretical classes that CS students got. as there were too many students, the professors didn't want to stop for any particular student's questions, so the classes were effectively non-interactive. we mathematicians fared much better even in first year with the small group:
13:18:06 <b_jonas> back then there were 50 of us as first year together, about 25 active as third year,
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13:19:14 <b_jonas> and about 25 for the later specialized MsC classes which were attended by half of the students in weighted average (that is, there are more than twice as many classes as students take, but you generally take the more popular ones) but also taught in a period of two years instead of one year like the basic classes.
13:19:27 <kritixilithos> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25381325
13:21:18 <b_jonas> the lower record was a logic class about model theory where only two of us plus a professor were in the classroom every week. a few years later the mathematicians grew to about twice that size, which is qualitatively worse because then in the first year median professors started to have a difficulty remembering each student individually. but even then it's much better than the CS students with their 600
13:21:24 <b_jonas> first years and the electric engineers with their 300 first years.
13:23:19 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79364&oldid=75904 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Instruction list */ m
13:23:36 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79365&oldid=79364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Official implementation */ Deadlink
13:23:49 <b_jonas> I do admit that remote communication still makes everything worse, I'm glad I didn't have to go to university during something like this,
13:24:06 <esowiki> [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79366&oldid=79361 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) catsh
13:25:07 <b_jonas> and the way I have to work from home now sucks exactly because the communications at this job sucks, there was a lot of information that I could only get in person as corridor rumors.
13:26:22 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?" => yes, somehow. at least if three or four regulars count as "full of"
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13:27:31 <b_jonas> “<shachaf> It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.” interesting, I don't remember you ever complained about how I use English tenses, despite that I often use them at random
13:27:48 <b_jonas> I still don't really understand how they're supposed to work
13:28:04 <int-e> fungot: tell us something random
13:28:05 <fungot> int-e: the great merit of doing this is to be given to structural measures for fleets that needed to be registered on a register on a friday morning, with mr linkohr' s report is very supportive indeed and this is the normalisation process! if we want to use my three minutes' speaking time in this extremely important work of promoting equality of rights and the destruction took place just yesterday in luxembourg constitute a st
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13:46:14 <b_jonas> fungot: What is a fire and why does it – how do you say – burn?
13:46:15 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, the safi report was on the eu side because we believe that the committee responsible was able to have olaf's report so that there can only be obtained once the objectives of the common position also takes into consideration the fact that, even from these references, that the intergovernmental conference is quite intolerable, particularly for women.
13:48:04 <b_jonas> fungot: Open up your eyes, see the world from where I stand: me among the mighty, you caged at my command.
13:48:04 <fungot> b_jonas: given that we have not been matched by action. the european council launched two action plans. i should like to illustrate this alleged change that leon brittan went to present a communication on development policy, to quote the text itself, putting it into franchising and other things.
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14:34:25 <b_jonas> `? fire
14:34:27 <HackEso> Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
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15:01:40 <nakilon> > In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack.
15:01:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
15:01:51 <nakilon> where can I read what the "SGML" is?
15:04:10 <int-e> Have you tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGML
15:07:27 <nakilon> I don't see anything about collapsing space character there (
15:12:59 <b_jonas> nakilon: wait, why would befunge do that?
15:13:50 <b_jonas> I mean in string mode, which is for embedding literals efficienctly
15:14:17 <b_jonas> for normal code it's ok to do that
15:14:28 <nakilon> /shrug
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15:47:27 <nakilon> so I've put my ideas together here: https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel -- not decided yet is if there should be still one stack or maybe two; gonna figure that out in practice
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16:10:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's to make wrapping in stringmode well-defined.
16:11:04 <fizzie> In Befunge-93, you just got as many spaces as there were, because the playfield was a 80x25 bounded rectangle.
16:12:19 <fizzie> At least that's what I've always assumed was the primary reason.
16:12:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
16:13:17 <b_jonas> that might make some sense
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16:40:39 <b_jonas> there's actually a 2d language (with only 2d code, no 2d data or self-modifying code, sort of like Piet) that I sort of might want to make, but I couldn't figure out how it should work yet
16:50:20 <b_jonas> fungot, when have most of the Queen's Guards in London been replaced by robots?
16:50:20 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, i voted for this report, but also of our work to provide an incentive for member states to eliminate the current legal position and removes the option of being sentenced in countries that have also been discovered in addition to guaranteeing a high standard. moreover, we should like to remind you that the european union
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17:44:22 <b_jonas> this looks like it could be solved by a modification of my https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 game of life ran by unpack function, but that would be more difficult than a straightforward solution, so I won't try.
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17:55:07 <fizzie> That reminded me, updated https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html -- looks like today was in line with previous years, unlike the previous two days. Maybe the audience is less familiar with cellular automatatatons than they are with other things.
18:00:21 <b_jonas> also, at least from these days, it looks like they aren't trying to give interesting algorithmic problems, instead they give you coding programs you don't have to think about how to solve because you can just implement them as described. the APL and other array programmer guys probably like it.
18:05:12 <nakilon> what about float numbers in Befunge?
18:05:31 <nakilon> are they not supported?
18:10:24 <fizzie> There's a fingerprint for that.
18:10:38 <fizzie> Or two, actually: FPSP and FPDP.
18:11:15 <fizzie> http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPSP & http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPDP -- they're identical except for single vs. double precision.
18:12:27 <nakilon> thanks
18:13:00 <nakilon> looks like I had no clue about fingerprints
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18:13:22 <fizzie> fungot: Which fingerprints do you use?
18:13:22 <fungot> fizzie: mr celli, with regard to its future neighbours. this is what everyone wants.
18:14:03 <fizzie> The answer is STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, REXP, TOYS and SUBR, though some only very marginally.
18:14:09 <fizzie> (fungot is written in Funge-98.)
18:14:10 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, poor compliance with environmental legislation. the commission and others, on the issue of taxation referred to by lord bethell and the repression of the mountain people of vietnam. these extremely secret documents give us a way out. at the last minute and trying to guide us through the media, lays the foundations for a stable euro. i believe that the definition of a safe roll-over into the new objective 2
18:37:29 <nakilon> what? IRC bot in funge?!
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18:44:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, fungot is written in befunge.
18:44:51 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, all of which are controlled by multinationals and that politics is a job for the large countries. this takes the form of development. i sincerely hope that this clarifies the issue.
18:45:30 <nakilon> cool
18:46:06 <b_jonas> fungot: face it, your majesty. odds are, your curious offspring will befriend an surface dweller or mortal or outsider from the nation you consider your enemy, no matter how much you forbid them. you'd better prepare for it, rather than delude yourself that your authority can avoid it.
18:46:06 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president-in-office, i do personally feel that the distribution of seats in the european commission supports parliament' s secretary-general and the deputy secretary-general of the council says, with dry eyes, on fisheries, but concerns above all the council, commissioner, i represent the italian pensioners' party membership card in order to reduce the democratic deficit, but constitution stripping of this kind must
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18:58:07 <b_jonas> this one took a lot of time to solve. the point to take away for me is this: either stick to nice medium-long identifiers like I use in programs that I want others to see, or work on figuring out how to use short identifiers in a way that I don't end up confusing myself, using the same name for multiple things, using different names for the same thing, referring to the wrong variable, etc.
18:58:46 <b_jonas> I used to write programs with short identifiers, but that was ages ago, and I apparently forgot the trick, so for programs that use a lot of different variables I mess up
19:10:57 <zzo38> You can add comments if that can help to explain what a variable is for
19:13:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: that only helps in long programs. short variable names are for short programs that I write once then forget about them, like for AoC and all the short programs I write for one-off tasks
19:13:25 <b_jonas> the problem here is that I confuse the variables even as I write those short programs
19:13:47 <b_jonas> I don't remember them half an hour after I write the code
19:14:03 <b_jonas> can't predict them or understand them, unlike the medium-long ones that I'm used to
19:14:24 <b_jonas> perhaps it's just lack of practice, perhaps I should just not use a short variable name scheme at all
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20:30:11 <zzo38> I have asked about rule 305.9 on rec.games.trading-cards.misc.rules, and have gotten a few replies, but they only say that rule 305.9 is meant to clarify that a land cannot be cast even if it has another type. However, I have failed to find any rule that specifically says that a land cannot be cast if some effect says to cast that card.
20:49:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, this is about the double-faced land things again. I'll have to check the rules if they patched the oversight with them.
20:49:55 <b_jonas> when the next rules version comes out, or is it already out?
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20:56:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: I'm not complaining!
20:59:28 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79367&oldid=50976 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) links +++ cats
21:01:21 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79368&oldid=79367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 2007
21:01:29 <esowiki> [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79369&oldid=79368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) dammit
21:02:03 <zzo38> I don't know. I they are, I will download it. However, they do write about them before the new rules are published, usually
21:02:41 <esowiki> [[Implieses]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79370&oldid=50995 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Append docile ocelots to the page
21:06:12 <fizzie> ^source
21:06:12 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:06:14 <fizzie> nakilon: ^
21:09:45 <nakilon> omg
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21:15:37 <nakilon> fizzie is author here?
21:26:31 <nakilon> have a pull request https://github.com/fis/fungot/pull/1
21:26:31 <fungot> nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, one thing must be clear: we cannot blow the case out of all proportion to the fishing opportunities and the fight for windmills is one where a german would have faced prosecution. so the combined efforts of the member states, of which i have just heard the commissioner speak. a fine, resolute speech after the speech by the commissioner.
21:38:40 <fizzie> Clicked the button.
21:40:01 <nakilon> oh it's you ..D
21:40:03 <nakilon> thanks
21:48:40 <nakilon> b_jonas I use such rules: 1) one char long variable name should only be used when it's standard, like i, j, k for indexes, n for "number of somethings", etc. 2) if I append "s" to it (like is, js, ks, ns) it means an array of them 3) the "_" variable name for one time usage
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21:49:26 <nakilon> *indices
21:51:14 <nakilon> also could be "t" instead of "_"
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21:57:06 <kmc> very haskelly
21:57:21 <kmc> except the haskellers use single letter names for everything because it makes them feel like they're doing math
21:59:02 <fizzie> Go-ers use a lot of single-letter names too, though I'm not sure why. It's a cultural thing.
22:11:39 <nakilon> fizzie I feel like now that source code is highlighted
22:12:11 <nakilon> no very correct though, since it's hard to see that p and g between " are text, not instructions
22:14:17 <fizzie> Mm, well, it's a hard problem. It doesn't seem to have highlighted the main source file, either.
22:15:33 <fizzie> Funnily enough, fungot does not use very much self-modifying code. If memory serves, I successfully ran it on an AOT compiler once.
22:15:34 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, you mentioned the hague convention of 1996 which, thankfully, was taken up with the arrogance of the world. the death penalty and the affirmation of the european institutions to put the extension of the mandate of the auto/ oil package which includes a visit to central america at the wto.
22:17:10 <nakilon> one "g" can easily be a part of horizontal string and an instruction from some vertical direction
22:17:32 <nakilon> same for "v"
22:17:55 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that was a caching issue, fungot.b98 is highlighted now that I reloaded it.
22:17:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i too had not intended the interpretation which has been followed here since the santini report. or if we have agreed at community level in the commission, mrs de palacio, of the type involved, specialized agriculture using a labour force which is in danger and that it will also provide a guarantee of industrial feasibility, respecting the financial interests of the consumer in this modern age demands. in
22:18:18 <fizzie> It doesn't understand a-f as numeric either, guess it's optimized for '93.
22:19:02 <fizzie> Well, at least it looks festive, which is appropriate for the season.
22:35:07 <nakilon> is Chris Pressey in this channel?
22:36:01 <fizzie> Sometimes, but not since September this year.
22:36:51 <fizzie> s/September/October/
22:36:57 <fizzie> (What's wrong with my log-rsync?)
22:40:24 <fizzie> (Oh, the remote command it uses had changed from `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxC` to `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxCIvu` and I had made the key very picky in what can be done with it.)
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23:31:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, the one time usage variables starting with underscore are easy, because I only have to write them once so it doesn't really matter what I name them. but already with an s suffix there's a problem: does s stand for sequence/array or string? how do I call the other? if I use v for arrays, then how do I abbreviate value? I just keep getting myself confused.
23:32:20 <b_jonas> I should probably just stick to longer names, it doesn't hurt that much to use them
23:32:49 <nakilon> when I mean string I add "str"
23:33:38 <nakilon> k, v for key and value when iterating over associating arrays, so I'll never call an array v
23:33:51 <nakilon> *associative
23:33:57 <b_jonas> if I try to use one-two-three letter variable names, there are just too many words that abbreviate to the common letters like s n d whatever, and oddly v too
23:35:03 <nakilon> if I mean array sometimes "array" is exactly how I name that var )
23:35:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't find that too strange. befunge doesn't force you to use self-modifying code for anything, it's not like you have to write indexes or anything into character cells, in fact it doesn't even provide good tools to write numbers to code, at most you can write booleans easily. not using self-modifying code is just the easiest way to write befunge.
23:36:13 <fizzie> Well, true. But it's sort of a signature move for the language.
23:36:17 <b_jonas> also sometimes I run into conflicts with the short keywords: in particular, I know I must not call an input file handle `if`, because that's a keyword
23:36:44 <fizzie> (The admin ^reload and ^code commands of course do self-modify, but that's kind of special.)
23:37:30 <fizzie> You can write numbers to code very easily in Funge-98, you just prepend the number with '
23:37:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, there is such a primitive? let me see
23:39:10 <fizzie> It's called the "one-shot stringmode".
23:39:33 <b_jonas> nice
23:39:44 <b_jonas> are the cells single bytes?
23:39:49 <nakilon> in Ruby 1.8 you could write ?a and that was a number corresponding to ascii a code
23:39:59 <fizzie> No, they're arbitrary integers, usually 32-bit signed ones.
23:40:02 <nakilon> then it changed so it's "a"
23:40:05 <b_jonas> oh nice
23:40:10 <b_jonas> so they're the same type as on the stack
23:40:12 <nakilon> (1 char long string)
23:40:30 <b_jonas> yes, that sounds like you can write self-modifying code (unless of course you want multi-threaded or otherwise reentrant code)
23:40:42 <b_jonas> it could be hard to optimize of course
23:42:04 <b_jonas> you'd need something like qemu that tracks which cells are compiled and what it has to recompile at every store, but qemu can do that efficiently because programs optimized for normal cpus already know that they shouldn't write and execute from the same page too much, because it can be very slow
23:42:29 <b_jonas> doing it at a granularity smaller than pages would be rather inefficient
23:42:35 <fizzie> I think gForth has that character literal syntax too.
23:42:38 <fizzie> `forth 'a .
23:42:39 <HackEso> 97
23:42:56 <fizzie> I think it's sort of uncommon though.
23:42:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: and so do some lisps, though I think the prefix is two characters there
23:43:22 <fizzie> Scheme has #\x.
23:43:57 <fizzie> (In line with various other things beginning with #, like #t and #f for the booleans.)
23:45:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. I would actually like to see a convention where the octotrophe serves as eitehr a comment marker if there's a space before it, or a rare token suffix if there's no space before it, but it looks like the only language that does that is K the apl-like
23:45:38 <b_jonas> it would work because it's already a convention that there's always whitespace (or the beginning of the file) before a comment marker
23:46:14 <b_jonas> so this would effectively save one of the precious 33 ascii punctuation
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