←2021-01-31 2021-02-01 2021-02-02→ ↑2021 ↑all
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00:25:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Openbyte * New user account
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00:34:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80477&oldid=80463 * Openbyte * (+150)
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00:35:14 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80478&oldid=74928 * Openbyte * (+64) Added rust implementation link
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02:16:03 <fizzie> fungot: You feeling okay?
02:16:03 <fungot> fizzie: oh, i changed 1 to 2, which is the problem? there we go.
02:16:54 <fizzie> Impressive, didn't even lose the TCP connection.
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02:21:34 <esowiki> [[User:FreakCdev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80479 * FreakCdev * (+279) Created page with "I'm the guy who is obsessed with programming languages, particularly esoteric ones. I have also created many programming languages like FreakC, Jellyscript, VNC and wrote an i..."
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07:32:20 <nakilon> fungot are you binary or ternary?
07:32:20 <fungot> nakilon: are you going to shoot me?" and get the primary key depending on that behaviour. in all other eu countries they are.
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07:54:44 <nakilon> fungot, @
07:54:44 <fungot> nakilon: right, but that's another flamewar!) capture him and get him to understand!
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08:46:46 <shachaf> "If close() is interrupted by a signal that is to be caught, it shall return -1 with errno set to EINTR and the state of fildes is unspecified."
08:46:49 <shachaf> thosix
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09:56:15 <int-e> `? password
09:56:18 <HackEso> The password of the month is eerily topical
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11:05:14 <esowiki> [[User:Graue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80480&oldid=36063 * Graue * (+37) updates
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11:07:15 <esowiki> [[Sortle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80481&oldid=53715 * Graue * (+78) /* External resources */ add interpreter with debugger
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12:27:24 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80482 * ReplayShells * (+386) Created page with "A Mirror-machine is an extremely simple program type invented by [[User:ReplayShells]] to check decision, addition, subtraction, loops, input and outputs. Rules: *Input vars..."
12:27:58 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80483&oldid=80482 * ReplayShells * (+0)
12:29:01 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80484&oldid=80467 * ReplayShells * (+57)
12:29:27 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80485&oldid=80483 * ReplayShells * (+2)
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13:29:39 <int-e> tromp: You might enjoy this month's Ponder This... it's not just stupid brute force this time.
13:31:47 <int-e> the '*' part feels uninspired though
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13:45:14 <int-e> helloerjan!
13:45:19 <oerjan> hello!
13:45:34 <int-e> it's been a while
13:45:53 <oerjan> i've been taking an internet white year :P
13:46:28 <oerjan> surprisingly, my freenode account seems to still be here.
13:46:56 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't notice you were missing, but then I haven't been here much myself
13:47:29 <oerjan> shachaf: yo! i just saw your email
13:48:43 <int-e> 'Nicknames and accounts which are expired will not automatically be dropped. Please contact network staff if you would like to take over an expired nickname.'
13:48:55 <oerjan> i know, in principle.
13:49:10 <int-e> So nobody wanted that nick and also knew the policy :)
13:49:30 <oerjan> right.
13:50:08 <int-e> I didn't know... or maybe I did and forgot.
13:53:07 <int-e> oh well, the timing was eery, what with covid going around
13:53:13 <int-e> glad you're fine
13:53:52 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is in order again.
13:53:57 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is in order again.
13:54:27 <oerjan> i think covid was part of it - too much depressing news around.
13:56:20 <oerjan> `dowg password
13:56:22 <HackEso> 12361:2021-02-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is in order again. \ 12360:2021-01-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is eerily topical \ 12355:2020-12-01 <b_jonäs> learn The password of the month is wake these token brings \ 12348:2020-11-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0 \ 12344:2020-10-01 <wib_jonäs> learn The password of the month is Algol Waterloo Athens aftermath quadrant hydrau
13:56:48 <oerjan> i see you've been keeping up.
13:57:29 <ais523> I have no ida how common Ørjan is as a name
13:57:34 <ais523> * no idea
13:58:56 <oerjan> <int-e> where's oerjan when you need somebody to discuss the latest TWIST in GG... <-- months away. i may have some catchup to do. and check if the twist i _was_ expecting actually happened.
13:59:29 <int-e> I forgot what that was about
14:00:00 <oerjan> ais523: i think when i checked it was the 50th most common first name for males in norway
14:00:12 <oerjan> my surname is 2nd, though.
14:01:32 <ais523> yes, but your surname isn't part of your IRC nick
14:01:40 <ais523> was wondering about the chances of people trying to steal your nick from you
14:04:15 <oerjan> when i first arrived here, it was actually taken (but expiring)
14:04:32 <oerjan> the "oe" probably helps too.
14:04:52 <ais523> is ø legal in IRC nicks?
14:05:00 <fizzie> o!
14:05:41 <oerjan> not in the basic version, although the legality of "|" is a legacy from when that _was_ used for ø in some charsets, iirc
14:06:03 <oerjan> (or ö, since irc is originally finnish)
14:06:18 <fizzie> That'd be the ISO 646-FI character set.
14:06:23 <ais523> ø and ö are notably different letters, though
14:06:40 <ais523> fizzie: oh wow, ISO 646
14:06:48 <Taneb> Famously so, I would say
14:06:55 <ais523> I thnk ISO 8859 has pretty much entirely replaced that, and both are nowadays obsolete
14:06:58 <fizzie> Yeah, but I'm sure there's some Norwegian-specific variant that has ø in there.
14:07:18 <ais523> ISO 646 is the reason C has trigraphs, I think
14:07:37 <ais523> if you don't have a | because your charset has a ö instead, you can write it as ??! instead
14:07:52 <ais523> that said, ö for OR isn't that hard to remember
14:08:03 <fizzie> ISO 646-FI indeed has [\]^ and {|}~ as the uppercase/lowercase variants of äöåü.
14:08:14 <ais523> german ö and English "or" have similar (but not identical) pronunciations
14:09:15 <int-e> that reminds me of my failure to learn the pronunciation of de Bruijn...
14:09:23 <fizzie> Not exactly sure why ü is on that list, since it's not really part of the Finnish alphabet. Wouldn't think it's the most common non-native letter or anything.
14:09:41 <int-e> ...my conclusion was that there's something in it that my ears aren't trained to hear
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14:10:00 <ais523> fizzie: maybe it's so the same character set can be used for both Finnish and some other language
14:10:06 <int-e> ais523: (they're not at all similar... to my german ear)
14:10:08 <ais523> German has äöü but also ß
14:10:27 <ais523> int-e: well ö is closer to "or" than o is
14:10:56 <ais523> but ö is more like "er" than "or", and still not that close
14:11:15 <int-e> ah is closer to eh than uh is... I suppose
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14:11:38 <fizzie> I think the German variant of ISO 646 omits the å to make room for ß.
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14:13:11 <int-e> oerjan: Oh I do remember. I wanted someone who knows the ins and outs of the Blitzengard family, at the time.
14:13:47 <int-e> (remember = I looked up the date in the logs and checked which comic I referred to)
14:14:01 <fizzie> It wasn't *that* uncommon to still see Usenet posts and emails and suchlike to get their äs and ös replaced with {s and |s when I was in university. And perhaps even more common to see them get replaced by d and v (which is what you get if you do 8-bit ISO-8859-1 but drop the 8th bit).
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14:22:37 <tromp> int-e: thx for suggestion
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16:49:21 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80486&oldid=71469 * Rerednaw * (-9)
16:49:49 <NotApplicable> somebody made a copypasta language?
16:49:52 <NotApplicable> haha
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18:54:15 <shachaf> oerjan: helloerjan
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19:06:03 <shachaf> `ølist
19:06:06 <HackEso> ​ølist? No such file or directory
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19:10:54 <zzo38> But now, you can add headers into messages to indicate the charater set to use. Glk uses ISO-8859-1, but also supports UTF-32.
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19:27:59 <b_jonas> hello oerjan
19:32:56 <b_jonas> "<ais523> that said, ö for OR isn't that hard to remember" => sure, it's indexing your arrays like vÄlÅ where it gets ugly. it worked better on BASIC microcomputers because BASIC doesn't use brackets or braces for anything, though those computers sometimes used different character sets than ISO-646.
19:36:07 <b_jonas> but even the different character sets used the obvious idea of replacing the brackets and other characters that are not used in BASIC
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19:48:34 <fizzie> printf("Hello, world!Ön");
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19:49:56 <world> Hi
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19:50:28 <shachaf> C implementations that use Unicode should support this. They already support digraphs and trigraphs, so why not monographs?
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20:41:29 <esowiki> [[Powerlist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80487&oldid=39461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Truth machine */ Cat
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20:46:47 <kmc> which ASCII characters have their bit pattern dictated by external concerns? there's NUL (usable to reserve space, can be punched to any character), DEL (any character can be punched to it), and SYN (distinct from any bitwise rotation of itself, usable to maintain framing on synchronous links)
20:46:52 <kmc> any others?
20:49:56 <zzo38> I don't know; that is just what I have known of, what you mentioned too
20:59:57 <b_jonas> kmc: well it's certainly convenient to have the digits 0123456789 encoded as consecutive bytes, makes it easier to parse or format numbers. the same is true for ABCDEF .
21:01:44 <b_jonas> I'll also note that EBCDIC encoding letters in traditional alphabetic order was the one and only chance to get rid of the traditional phoenician-derived order of the letters in the alphabet and invent an entirely new order
21:02:22 <b_jonas> but it might have been too late, by that time alphabetized dictionaries compiled by hand may have been too well spread for technology to be able to overthrow that order
21:03:34 <b_jonas> I'm also hoping we could get rid of the traditional Hungarian alphabetization order that makes everyone's work harder in the uncommon cases
21:06:36 <b_jonas> Nobody other than the very few people whose name starts with Cu or Cz or Zu would notice if we silently got rid of the rule that the nine special letters (sz, gy, ny, cs, zs, ly, ty, dzs, dz; but never ch or th or cz) and their doubled versions are sorted differently when they're used for the sound they usually denote than when they're accidents.
21:07:07 <b_jonas> That's a rule that very hard to strictly follow by a computer, and it gains you nothing.
21:07:34 <b_jonas> It's just the sort of nonsense that you teach to kids so they have to suffer just as you suffered in school
21:08:05 <b_jonas> You should teach it only in high school as a curiosity in case they want to look up words in older dictionaries.
21:09:17 <kmc> yeah
21:10:33 <kmc> those sorts of rules are annoying for sure
21:10:41 <b_jonas> I mean treating sz, gy, ny, cs in *Scrabble* kind of make sense, but not for alphabetization
21:11:03 <b_jonas> but the Scrabble rules can be decided freely independent of the alphabetization
21:12:37 <kmc> Spanish used to collate "ch" and "ll" separately from "c" and "l" but they got rid of that in 1994, though they were still considered distinct letters until 2010 (per wikipedia)
21:14:38 <kmc> b_jonas: EBCDIC has the letters in traditional alphabetic order, but not contiguous
21:15:30 <kmc> they're hex 81-89, 91-99, A2-A9
21:15:46 <b_jonas> kmc: sure, but the not contiguous doesn't matter for alphabetization
21:15:48 <kmc> I forgot why this is, but it probably relates to its history as an extension of BCD (numerals are F0-F9)
21:16:46 <b_jonas> kmc: it relates to the Hollerith punch card encoding
21:17:23 <kmc> and in ASCII they're 30-39
21:17:53 <kmc> so that counts as an external concern: the low 4 bits of an ASCII numeral give you its binary/BCD representation
21:18:13 <kmc> whereas just having them contiguous in an arbitary place wouldn't
21:18:18 <fizzie> Does the single bit uppercase/lowercase thing count as well?
21:18:49 <kmc> are there any interesting relationships between ASCII and Baudot/ITA2?
21:23:12 <kmc> also I learned (although I may have already learned, and forgotten) about the use of ASCII character ENQ
21:23:15 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enquiry_character
21:23:57 <kmc> when sent to a Telex machine it would automatically reply with an identification string encoded on a rotating drum
21:24:26 <kmc> useful when leaving messages at an unattended machine. you could check that you reached the right recipient, and also check that the connection was not dropped by sending it again at the end
21:25:10 <kmc> such a character also exists in ITA2, called WRU for "Who aRe yoU?"
21:30:44 <b_jonas> "interesting relationships between ASCII and Baudot/ITA2" => I don't think so, apart from stuff that both ASCII and Baudot wants independently, like how space, which is one of the most common characters, has just one hole
21:32:24 <kmc> I wonder if WRU is ever used in amateur RTTY
21:34:14 <kmc> b_jonas: do you think there's a better ordering for the latin alphabet than the phoenecian-derived one? what would you prefer?
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21:53:17 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80488&oldid=80399 * Not applicable * (+791) almost there...
21:53:29 <NotApplicable> oh
21:53:47 <NotApplicable> lol
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22:41:45 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm not sure. the difficulty is that the latin alphabet is used for a lot of very different languages and they use many letters in very different ways.
22:43:38 <b_jonas> but you might want something with vowels first or last, consonants in two series that are voiced then unvoinced, pairs in the same order, something like AIUOEYBDGVZJMNLRPTKFSCH
22:45:48 <fizzie> ETAOIN SHRDLU
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22:46:20 <b_jonas> also there's sort of a coordination problem, because you'd have to get all languages to use a similar order, just like how now basically all languages that use latin letters use the same order, except maybe for a few letters, and even all languages that use cyrillic scripts (sometimes very differently) use one consistent order, and that's not even considering greek/hebrew/arabic gemmatria
22:48:18 <b_jonas> oh, and braille latin letters have a mnemonic that only works with the current alphabetic order: ABCDEFGHIJ is represented the same as 1234567890, add a lower dot and it's KLMNOPQRST, add two lower dots and it's UVXYZ
22:49:52 <b_jonas> and the braille alphabet is quite old, it might actually have already been clearly established by the time the Hollerith and EBCDIC encodings were decided on
22:49:57 <b_jonas> so it might have been too late because of that
22:50:06 <b_jonas> I don't know the history of Braille, so I can't tell really
22:53:05 <kmc> fizzie: that's the keyboard layout used for hot metal typesetting!
22:53:09 <kmc> which I was also reading about last night
22:53:21 <zzo38> Many other things also work with the existing alphabetical order, including ASCII, punch cards, telephone numbers, etc.
22:53:27 <kmc> (I went from video terminals -> teletypes -> punched tape -> hot metal typesetting, kind of a backwards in time thing)
22:55:20 <NotApplicable> it's evolving, but backwards
22:56:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's how this started. "<b_jonas> I'll also note that EBCDIC encoding letters in traditional alphabetic order was the one and only chance to get rid of the traditional phoenician-derived order of the letters in the alphabet and invent an entirely new order"
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23:03:26 <zzo38> Were alphabetic orders made up by numerology? I know there are many different kinds of alphabets with different orders, and at least some of them are based on numerology.
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23:34:02 <kmc> zzo38: which ones are those?
23:34:57 <kmc> I have a friend whose four year old son is really into different alphabets
23:35:05 <kmc> I told her she should try to teach him Hangul
23:35:33 <kmc> it's the best
23:37:24 <zzo38> I do not remember, but I think I read that somewhere.
←2021-01-31 2021-02-01 2021-02-02→ ↑2021 ↑all