←2021-02-11 2021-02-12 2021-02-13→ ↑2021 ↑all
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01:35:10 <nakilon> don't DVD rot in 10 years or so?
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01:42:15 <GGmahdude> Wiki is saying this is the most active forum even though the discord has 4 times the members
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01:48:53 <zzo38> Having more members does not necessarily make it more active, though.
01:50:39 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if the discord was more active, too.
01:50:58 <fizzie> But the wiki was almost certainly correct when it was written.
01:51:38 <fizzie> (I don't know anything about the discord, or any other discord, in case that sounded like it, I've just understood that to be a common pattern.)
01:52:10 <zzo38> Yes, it also might have been changed over time. However, at least in my opinion, IRC is much better in many ways.
01:52:38 <zzo38> (But, if you want to, you might write, "(as of [date])" in the wiki.)
01:53:59 <GGmahdude> Are the 2003 logs from this forum?
01:54:46 <fizzie> Probably. There are definitely logs from the year 2003 of this channel.
01:56:00 <fizzie> There's also some (not updated since 2016) charts of channel activity, showing that this place peaked around 2010-2011: https://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/activity_lines.html
01:57:26 <fizzie> (I know there's a lot flashier webby graphing frameworks around these days, but there's something quite pleasant about RRDtool output, however clunky it is.)
01:57:46 <GGmahdude> Same time as the esoteric forum got spammed to death
01:58:48 <GGmahdude> Didnt even know there were open sources discord alternatives too
01:58:54 <nakilon> discord is a cancer website that was made popular by intregrating it with League of Legends because their game devs were too lame to implement voice chat so they outsourced it to that website project
01:58:59 <fizzie> The thing that predated this channel was the sange.fi mailing list, and the thing that predated *that* mailing list was the other mailing list, and I don't know what predated that.
02:00:19 <zzo38> I don't like mailing list so much I think that NNTP is better. However, the implementation could be made to support the same messages with both mailing list and NNTP.
02:00:30 <nakilon> they've succeed in making it popular because most of the gamers don't have a clue in software and just weren't told there are already such things as IRC, Quakenet, Teamspeak, etc., and that they don't really HAVE to register themselves on that website and pass all their private messaging via their proprietary servers
02:01:18 <shachaf> Hmm, I think cancer is a lot worse than Discord. Cancer kills millions of people every year, whereas Discord allows millions of people to communicate with each other (even if I have some objections to the specifics).
02:02:44 <nakilon> discord does not allow to communicate -- it's working in the opposite way
02:03:20 <nakilon> if those people who are there were here I would communicate with them but they are not here because they've been told that they have to use Discord since it's the only existing way to communicate in the internet
02:03:37 <zzo38> I don't use Discord either.
02:03:54 <shachaf> I communicate with people using Discord that I wouldn't otherwise.
02:04:02 <shachaf> (Using a third-party client, though, usually.)
02:04:38 <nakilon> probably there are bridges between IRC and that cancer
02:06:11 <nakilon> meanwhile I've finally finished the autotagger -- now the talking thing can learn words from any amount of logs I pass to it
02:06:35 <nakilon> but logs of this channel require a bit of cleaning because there are messages with code, regexes, xml, etc.
02:07:58 <nakilon> the autotagging has 72% accuracy that means there is 28% of potentially grammarly incorrect text pieces
02:11:02 <nakilon> now need to implement the IRC client and something to make responses respect the context
02:11:40 <fizzie> The thing with IRC bridges that's most annoying is how they (at least on the IRC side) make all comments from the other side look like they're coming from the same person. (I'm on one bridged channel, with maybe an 80%/20% split in terms of comments in favour of IRC.)
02:13:01 <shachaf> Discord has many advantages over IRC, such as storing history on the server side, so you don't have to stay constantly connected, and supporting voice.
02:13:12 <shachaf> And being easy for people who just want to chat to use.
02:13:24 <shachaf> You gotta recognize those advantages even if you don't like Discord.
02:13:57 <nakilon> this could be better if the bridge is integrated with IRC server somehow so the PRIVMSG would be not from a bot but from a original nickname in another chat
02:14:15 <zzo38> Storing history on the server side is a feature of the implementation, not the protocol. It would be possible for a IRC server to do this too.
02:14:27 <zzo38> (It is just that, most don't.)
02:14:35 <nakilon> (assuming that one's IRC client won't crash if he gets the PRIVMSG to the channel from the person that isn't here)
02:16:02 <shachaf> zzo38: No, it's a feature of the protocol, surely?
02:16:20 <shachaf> You can ask the server to search history and to fetch particular parts incrementally and things like that.
02:16:21 <nakilon> history does not have to be stored in the server, because: 1. it's a commercial project and they are profiting from integration with Twitch to sell lootboxes -- they don't give any fuck about preserving your history and will delete or corrupt it in any moment
02:16:39 <shachaf> Well, nothing stops you from storing history locally too.
02:17:10 <shachaf> I'm just saying, you gotta recognize the benefits, rather than calling people gamers who don't have a clue in software.
02:17:21 <shachaf> Don't be https://twitter.com/1990slinuxuser
02:17:30 <nakilon> 2. because it's basically not a secure practice to store history without making the chat owner implicitly enable it -- I don't need my logs to be synced to undetermined amount of machines
02:18:06 <zzo38> shachaf: The Discord protocol may have commands to access the history, unlike IRC, but that doesn't mean a IRC server can't do that. The logs could be available in a HTTP or Gopher server, and/or the IRC server could provide an extension command to access the logs.
02:18:09 <nakilon> I see you are just triggered
02:18:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, but the things you're describing are certainly part of the protocol.
02:18:34 <shachaf> Even if it goes over Gopher or whatever. A regular IRC client won't know to do this.
02:18:42 <shachaf> Also, Discord supports longer messages, and also images.
02:18:47 <nakilon> that happens to gamers when they hear something they didn't realise and that is critical towards the services they use
02:19:20 <shachaf> Right, you've got it in one.
02:19:35 <zzo38> An IRC server could also easily increase the maximum message length. (If it is long enough, you could post images using a data: URI. I have actually seen this once, although the image was split across several consecutive messages.)
02:19:53 <shachaf> I was just lying when I said I object to things about Discord. What I meant to say is that it's perfect.
02:19:59 <nakilon> there is no need in images in the text chat
02:20:22 <zzo38> nakilon: I mostly agree. (And in the few cases that you do need images, usually you can just post a URL.)
02:21:24 <fizzie> Are you quite sure "triggering" isn't what happens when IRC people hear the slightest nonnegative opinions about a thing they hate? Because I can't exactly tell the difference.
02:21:48 <zzo38> It is true, a regular IRC client won't know how to access logs over Gopher or HTTP, but it could be mentioned in the server's HELP file (and the MOTD could mention it too). Even this IRC has the URLs of logs in the TOPIC message (even though it is client-side logging).
02:22:31 <nakilon> how is "Discord has many advantages over IRC" nonnegative?
02:22:44 <fizzie> Are you saying it's negative, then?
02:23:01 <nakilon> chats with images, server side logs and voice communications existed before Discord -- for example Skype
02:23:27 <nakilon> these tools are just for different purposes and one can't have "advantages over" another one
02:23:48 <shachaf> I'm very confused about what I was interpreted as saying.
02:23:57 <nakilon> IRC is for communication, Discord is for memes and noisy voice chat rooms
02:25:48 <zzo38> I think that if the channel is public, then it should be OK to save the logs. If the channel is private, then they might not want logs saved.
02:27:22 <fizzie> That just sounds like nonsense. Even without ever using it myself, I'm pretty sure there's some amount of people using it for what's unquestionably "communication" instead of "memes" and "noisy voice chat rooms", just based on what I've heard from people I can't imagine would have any reason to mislead.
02:27:41 <nakilon> that's the only bad side of Slack btw -- once the Team owner buys the "premium plan" it can read all chats
02:27:58 <fizzie> (I've no idea how big a fraction that is of their total user base, and since I don't know anything about it, I don't think I care to argue about it particularly much.)
02:28:15 <zzo38> Yes, people do use Discord for communication, but IRC is better; for one thing, it can be used without specialized software.
02:28:55 <zzo38> (Well, depends on the kind of communications being made. For some things, email, NNTP, etc may be better.)
02:29:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Sounds to me like you're a gamer and you heard something you didn't like.
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02:30:27 <zzo38> (Other people prefer Matrix over IRC, and bridges between Matrix and IRC do exist.)
02:30:52 <shachaf> I really don't like Matrix/IRC bridges.
02:31:06 <shachaf> IRC doesn't support the same features, and the bridges compensate for that by writing annoying text.
02:31:07 <nakilon> fizzie the thing is that taking all kinds of people who are using Discord I meet in internet 99% of them just didn't hear about IRC, 99,9% never used IRC, 90% didn't hear about Teamspeak, most of them didn't really try to use other services to collectively share screen or use webcam -- Discord users are mostly just those who didn't know about
02:31:08 <nakilon> software that already existed
02:31:08 <fizzie> Anyway, I've heard you can't argue with success, and the fact this IRC/Discord thing has been the longest "conversation" (if you want to call it that) in a long while says something about the success of this particular channel in particular, which I (from looking at netsplit.de charts) suspect is more widely applicable than that.
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02:31:55 <nakilon> this is how impractical things become popular -- you just need to put enough advertising in it; IRC isn't monetized by default while Discord is -- they made it to integrate games, twitch and stuff
02:33:06 <fizzie> I think it's quite interesting how freenode's been a lot more resistant, though. Truly this is the Rivendell of IRC networks. Or is it Lorien? Anyway.
02:35:46 <nakilon> the amount of talk about anything does not mean that it is cool
02:35:48 <zzo38> Well, a server that supports multiple protocols for the same messages or files is possible. Features that one doesn't have, other one might have, although extensions are possible, if the protocol supports that. There are different kind of communication, so you would only use the protocols for those kind of communication.
02:36:41 <zzo38> There are also some features that some users (or administrator) might just not want.
02:42:02 <zzo38> Do you like NNTP?
02:47:12 <fizzie> I do like the Usenet network in the abstract (or did back when I still partook of it). I don't have much of an opinion on the protocol. I got the impression it had some slightly obscure things around how control messages are treated? And I also heard that one specific server was hard to administer, but that's an implementation detail.
02:47:31 <fizzie> INN, right.
02:49:19 <shachaf> Do you like TCP?
02:49:24 <fizzie> I ran a very small NNTP-based network for a small group, but not sure with what. Definitely used Leafnode at some point as a local caching/batching thing for newsreading.
02:50:28 <fizzie> Our university's local NNTP newsgroups had a group called "-h" for the CS students (all the other groups were under a more conventional hierarchy of groups), and I don't think I ever found out why it was named like that.
02:51:05 <fizzie> It was the group where the script you ran when someone left their screen unlocked and their account logged in posted the message to.
02:51:07 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so too (and INN also does a lot more than I need), so I wrote my own implementation, which stores the messages in a SQLite database. (Some things are not currently implemented, but should be in future, such as authentication, and full support for copying messages between servers (it might be a separate program, which may be set up in cron or anacron).)
02:52:05 <fizzie> Oh, I should've archived those newsgroups, wonder why I never thought of that. They're gone now.
02:53:01 <zzo38> (Also in future, alternative interfaces (also as separate programs) with the same database, might also be implemented. Other people can help with that if wanted, I suppose.)
02:53:02 <fizzie> I feel like they probably weren't accessible from outside the university or student campus networks either.
02:55:44 <zzo38> Do you remember what was written on those newsgroups?
02:57:15 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80691&oldid=80659 * Digital Hunter * (+152) /* Digital root */
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03:01:04 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80692&oldid=80691 * Digital Hunter * (-4) /* Numbers */
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03:05:11 <nakilon> I'm sorry for being a bit edgy
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03:07:46 <kmc> happy Chinese New Year / Lunar New Year
03:21:08 <zzo38> Maybe I might make Chinese cookies
03:23:38 <nakilon> is there any rule in English that adjective can't go before the pronoun? like "additional horse" is ok, "it runs" is ok, "horse runs" is ok, but "additional it" isn't ok
03:24:01 <nakilon> hoped to see it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun but no
03:29:17 <nakilon> hmm, https://ell.stackexchange.com/q/116505/33819
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04:54:32 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80693&oldid=80690 * Salpynx * (+1010) disable UTF-8 output to enable arbitrary binary data generation
05:04:10 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80694&oldid=80693 * Salpynx * (+26) heading
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08:01:00 <zzo38> Confused Maze {?} World Tribal Enchantment - Wall ;; Objects enter the battlefield tapped.
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10:15:20 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80695&oldid=80694 * Salpynx * (-17) remove .pl extension
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10:32:48 <esowiki> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80696&oldid=41893 * Salpynx * (+216) A possible Esme implementation. Works according to the info available from this wiki
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16:27:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80697&oldid=80686 * IOKG04 * (+188) /* Introductions */
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18:11:54 <b_jonas> you know how it can be hard to find the sockets on the back of monitor, because monitors are heavy and big so you can't easily rotate them to see those sockets, right? and you know who the typical TFT monitor is shaped like an elognated letter D, with the flat side facing the viewer and the curved side on the back getting ventillation? and how a HDMI connector is also shaped like an elognated letter D?
18:12:00 <b_jonas> it would be such a great mnemonic if the HDMI socket were placed on the monitor such that the flat side faces towards the viewer, but no! it's backwards, at least on some monitors. WHY? why do they design such a connector then mess up the mnemonic?
18:12:34 <b_jonas> HDMI isn't even the first digital monitor port, that's DVI, so by the time HDMI was invented they'd have had experience to know all this.
18:15:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: re your public files, are "gopher://zzo38computer.org/" and "http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/" the only roots? I don't promise anything because I have a backlog of useful websites that I should download, but neither "http://zzo38computer.org/" nor the gopher root seems to link to the fossil directory, so there might be more roots that I missed
18:21:44 <b_jonas> in other news, Nintendo's new Mario game has this schtick where every enemy is turned to a cat by adding cat ears and sometimes a cat tail: it has cat goombas, cat koopas, cat piranha plants, catfish etc. So now I wonder: does unicode have a combining cat ears character, so that we can represent a multiocular o with cat ears in unicode text?
18:31:15 <fizzie> Re the HDMI mnemonic, I wonder if that's just things like the HDMI connector they got sourced the cheapest being oriented a given way in terms of the PCB it's mounted to, and there being some practical reason where that board's in.
18:31:52 <fizzie> But it is annoying. I usually try to feel for those sockets, but my fingertips aren't good enough to really tell the orientation, especially when it's hard to reach in the first place.
18:33:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80698&oldid=80697 * SKPG-Tech * (+174) /* Introductions */
18:34:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the female socket in the monitor is completely sunken into the housing, just like with USB, so you can't feel it, you can only feel the cutout on the plastic cover, which doesn't help enough
18:34:57 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80699 * SKPG-Tech * (+902) Created page with "Pewlang is an [[esoteric programming language]], that translates to [[brainfuck]]. It was mostly inspired by [[Z]] and was made as a joke in the [https://pewpew.live/discord P..."
18:37:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80700&oldid=80698 * Tasty Kiwi * (+203)
18:40:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tasty Kiwi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80701 * Tasty Kiwi * (+80) Created page with "I am one of the creators of [[Pewlang]]. I like coding in Python and JavaScript."
18:40:34 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80702&oldid=79895 * SKPG-Tech * (+141) /* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */
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20:16:33 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80703&oldid=80699 * SKPG-Tech * (+3042)
20:19:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: The files in the gopher are dynamic; only the URLs starting with "gopher://zzo38computer.org/1textfile/" are not dynamic. For the Fossil repositories, you must use the Fossil protocol to clone them; simply downloading the file won't work.
20:20:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, then let's say "gopher://zzo38computer.org/1textfile/" is one of the roots
20:20:43 <b_jonas> and yes, I can clone from the fossil repositories (could pull from some of them some years ago at least)
20:21:51 <b_jonas> "http://zzo38computer.org/" should probably link to the fossil directory, and to "http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/" which mirrors the gopher
20:23:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I will fix that later. Right now I will shower and eat, and then I can find if there are other files that should be, and fix that.
20:27:08 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80704&oldid=80703 * SKPG-Tech * (-35)
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22:07:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80705&oldid=80700 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+167)
22:13:50 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80706&oldid=80478 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+131) Added IDE link
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23:08:27 <b_jonas> `ping
23:08:28 <HackEso> pong
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23:23:00 <zzo38> There are some other files, and there is also other things such as the NNTP service; maybe I should add some way to make backups remotely in a way which only copies changed files and can easily be extended for use with multiple types of realms (ordinary files, collections of artifacts referenced by hashes (e.g. Fossil repositories), netnews articles, etc).
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23:32:21 <zzo38> (I don't know if rsync supports such extensions)
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23:49:03 <fizzie> We use zsync for publicly available backups of the wiki contents, but I'm not sure it's really worth the hassle. I think it's mostly intended to do what rsync would do (download only changed blocks) even when the file is served from a "dumb" HTTP server, as long as it supports range requests. And I don't think it easily extends to other kinds of data.
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