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01:05:11 <zzo38> Hello, what question today?
01:06:42 <Guest56_> Nice to see you around here, I didn't know you were on esoteric as well. I ocassionally read your posts on the Usenet. Is Sqlnetnews still being maintained?
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01:07:56 <zzo38> Mostly I am working on a different project (Free Hero Mesh) at this time, although later I may work on sqlnetnews more. If you have any contributions or suggeations, then you may write where I may read them.
01:08:52 <zzo38> It is a puzzle game engine, for grid-based puzzle games such as sokoban and Hero Hearts.
01:09:20 <Guest56_> Sounds intresting - is it avaliable for download or something?
01:10:04 <zzo38> It is also meant to be compatible with puzzles from Everett Kaser's Hero Mesh (once they are converted), although it also has many new features too (including dynamic types, higher limits, etc).
01:10:27 <zzo38> Guest56_: There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui
01:11:15 <zzo38> It is in a state ready for testing, although it isn't close to complete yet.
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01:16:45 <zzo38> For now, I am trying to figure out what is causing some levels of the FALLING puzzle set with the $SeekerCloser class to not work properly.
01:22:24 <Guest56_> FYI: I am maintaning my own logs of this channel, alongside the ones above
01:22:26 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any comments, suggestions, bug reports, etc.
01:23:26 <Guest56_> I will check your think out zzo
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02:06:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81236&oldid=81123 * Trump Bot * (+790)
02:07:21 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81237&oldid=79175 * Sertdfyguhi * (+16) /* esolangs I made */
02:08:10 <esowiki> [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81238&oldid=79172 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:08:40 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81239&oldid=79181 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:09:06 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81240&oldid=79323 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:09:25 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81241&oldid=81237 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:20:09 <nakilon> IRL pixel art language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufic
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05:11:46 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81242&oldid=81218 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+96)
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07:21:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81243&oldid=81200 * Trump Bot * (+256) I sneezed by accident while posting and I can't delete it
07:22:00 <nakilon> this one reminds me the game on ipad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqNockPqPBg
07:22:42 <nakilon> there were wires and signals going through them by similar rules
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08:45:31 <zzo38> O, and there is a mirror of the Fossil repository for Free Hero Mesh at http://chiselapp.com/user/zzo38/repository/freeheromesh in case you need it
09:03:30 <nakilon> temp.c:8:5: warning: implicit declaration of function 'timespec_get' is invalid in C99
09:04:02 <nakilon> why doesn't cc agree to use the C11? it seems to understand the flag but the warning says...
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09:10:32 <nakilon> the same error with the snippet from https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/chrono/timespec_get while there on page their snippet runner compiles it fine with clang c11
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09:12:35 <nakilon> and when I press the "Share" button to get this link https://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/view?id=e84b765e6e9eb6d3and copy the command line from there I get the same error
09:12:48 <nakilon> I guess it's smth with my compiler but I didn't touch it...
09:14:19 <nakilon> they have clang 5.0 while mine is Apple LLVM version 10.0.1 (clang-1001.0.46.4) though and I don't know a shit about how do they correlate
09:49:20 <shachaf> MADV_FREE is a kind of bizarre API.
09:49:42 <shachaf> It should probably be set up to that either reads or writes give you the page, not just writes.
09:50:10 <shachaf> As it is you can have the odd behavior that you read a value from memory that's nominally available, and then you wait a while, and the value is different.
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11:01:23 <fizzie> nakilon: The "implicit declaration -- invalid in C99" warning (in Clang) is badly worded, and really just means "invalid *since* C99". But I don't know the actual cause of your problem; with my Clang, -std=c11 successfully adds timespec_get to the declarations from <time.h>, it just still gives the same warning for actually unknown names.
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13:24:40 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81244&oldid=79641 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Fix name
13:25:34 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81245&oldid=81244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Registers */ l->n
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18:38:03 <oren> what is the difference between aleatoric and stochastic
18:42:26 <int-e> . o O ( aleatoric sounds more musical. also I had to look it up. )
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19:18:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81246&oldid=81189 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Reverse cat */
19:19:16 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81247&oldid=81246 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ silly me. two-params are still confusing
19:20:28 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81248&oldid=81247 * Digital Hunter * (-49) /* FizzBuzz */ shorter one
19:21:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81249&oldid=81248 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* FizzBuzz */ oops
19:21:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81250&oldid=81249 * Digital Hunter * (-187) /* FizzBuzz */ oops oops
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22:24:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81251&oldid=81236 * Ais523 * (-790) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
22:25:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Trump Bot]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled, email disabled): looks like this user is just here to troll / advertise other forums, not to post constructively; temporary block to give them a chance to cool down / improve, but I'm not hopeful
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22:39:16 <ais523> shachaf: MADV_FREE is, in effect, basically "make it so that reading from any address in this range before it is next written is undefined behaviour"
22:39:29 <ais523> (which is a useful thing to do to allow the kernel to optimise the use of the physical memory backing it)
22:39:49 <ais523> but, you can't have *actual* undefined behaviour at the user/kernel interface because that might lead to security bugs, so instead they document the possible behaviours
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22:40:24 <shachaf> There's a particular claim someone made that they read a zero at the beginning of the page, wrote to the page, and then read a nonzero from the same place.
22:40:32 <shachaf> Which is a situation I'm skeptical about.
22:41:20 <ais523> I think that a) the API definition should allow that as a possible sequence of events in theory, but b) there is no reason to implement the kernel in such a way that that sequence of events would happen in practice
22:41:39 <shachaf> Anyway, why not have it set up so that either a read or a write faults, and keeps the page as-is?
22:41:47 <ais523> with the possible exception of kernel builds on which non-zeroed memory can be allocated
22:42:22 <ais523> shachaf: modifying page tables is expensive, even taking into account the length of time a system call takes
22:42:23 <shachaf> As far as I can tell that should only affect people who read from "uninitialized" memory, making the system more predictable, at no particular cost to anyone else.
22:42:33 <shachaf> Aren't they modifying the page tables anyway?
22:42:35 <ais523> but I guess they need to be modified regardless so that you can detect writes
22:43:34 <ais523> (Linux has an API for allocating uninitialized memory, but it's normally ifdeffed out by default for security reasons, and is only really there for high-performance embedded systems which don't care about security between processes)
22:44:24 <shachaf> Yes. But I don't think that's the situation here.
22:45:10 <shachaf> A person is saying, maybe this is a dirty page allocated by the same process, and therefore it doesn't contain zeros, but you can still get it without a security problem.
22:45:17 <shachaf> But I don't think Linux does anything like that.
22:45:37 <shachaf> Other than MADV_FREE, I mean, which only works this way if you keep the page in place.
22:46:17 <ais523> MADV_FREE isn't an allocation API, it's a deallocation API
22:47:26 <shachaf> Well, you can think of it either way.
22:47:54 <shachaf> It's sort of an optimized version of mmapping a new anonymous page at the same address.
22:48:35 <ais523> my favourite madvise option is MADV_HUGEPAGE which seems to actually have a noticeable performance impact in some programs
22:49:07 <ais523> and yet basically nothing uses it
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22:49:24 <ais523> it makes vmsplice(2) noticeably faster, but nobody uses vmsplice either
22:49:31 <shachaf> Last time I really tried to use huge pages for performance, you had to use hugetlbfs, I think.
22:49:42 <shachaf> And as I remember it didn't make much of a difference. But maybe I wasn't careful enough.
22:50:09 <shachaf> vmsplice is only for pipes, right?
22:50:38 <ais523> huge pages make pagewalks faster (most notably, recovering from a TLB flush, but some memory management operations make the kernel pagewalk)
22:50:59 <ais523> but they force memory management operations to have a larger granularity, so when you're using them, you have to be very careful to avoid anything that might cause a page copy
22:51:05 <ais523> otherwise you lose all your performance advantage
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22:52:11 <ais523> something I've discovered recently is that the way to optimise I/O from the writer's point of view depends a lot on what is reading the data, and how it's being read
22:52:29 <ais523> in particular, whether the data is going to be read out of your L1/L2/L3 cache or not
22:53:12 <ais523> if it isn't then it makes most sense to stream the data directly to the physical memory that's going to back the kernel's view of it (using mmap for files and vmsplice for pipes, plus nontemporal writes)
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23:00:46 <shachaf> Yes, but this was in a situation that should have benefited from huge pages (a database that managed its own cache).
23:03:52 <ais523> I actually think the largest benefits would be for, e.g., the memory backing large linked lists
23:04:15 <ais523> basically anything that makes a complete mockery of caches
23:04:45 <ais523> if something is cache-efficient then there won't be a large gain for hugepages because the TLB would be generally working pretty quickly anyway, so there isn't much to optimise
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23:05:06 <ais523> (other than recovery from TLB flushes, which I think the kernel does a pretty good job of reducing the frequency of nowadays)
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