←2021-04-21 2021-04-22 2021-04-23→ ↑2021 ↑all
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00:49:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82360&oldid=82313 * Trump Bot * (+115)
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01:57:27 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82361&oldid=82340 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+202) /* Befunge */ Letterless version
02:04:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82362&oldid=82195 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (-1) /* Aheui */ Reduced from 2 lines to 1 line. It could even be further reduced to 6 cells, but no such programs have yet been discovered.
02:23:12 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82363&oldid=82361 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+732) /* Befunk */ 22 cells. Sorry, I can't upload pictures
03:10:13 <shachaf> `5 w
03:10:18 <HackEso> 1/2:cyberiad//The Cyberiad is not just a book. It's an M&S book. \ something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now. \ ioccclist//ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news \ hice//Hice is the plural form of house. \ lie algebra//A Lie algebra is what
03:10:20 <shachaf> `n
03:10:20 <HackEso> 2/2: you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
03:56:12 <pikhq> hichaf
03:58:11 <shachaf> hi
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03:59:17 <shachaf> I'm infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group, unfortunately.
03:59:29 <shachaf> So close, and yet so close.
04:09:18 * oerjan observes shachaf through a microscope
04:09:50 * oerjan adds a drop of nitroglycerin and stirs
04:17:33 <pikhq> hmm
04:17:41 <pikhq> i'm just having a chill evening after work
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07:31:19 <int-e> oerjan: shocking.
07:31:57 <shachaf> hi int-e
07:35:49 <int-e> hey
07:39:30 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82364&oldid=81116 * Voltage2007 * (-209)
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08:17:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Befunk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82365 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+374) Questions
08:20:03 <esowiki> [[Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82366&oldid=82156 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+684) /* Examples */ Hello World
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09:21:22 <esowiki> [[Befunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82367&oldid=82366 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+95)
09:22:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82368&oldid=82365 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+18)
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12:22:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82369&oldid=82363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* Befunge */ Does not use `v`
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14:26:57 <Sgeo> `olist 1232
14:27:00 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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15:49:19 <b_jonas> thanks, HackEso. thackEso.
15:52:45 <nakilon> is there a reason why we don't make articles on artifical video game languages?
15:53:17 <nakilon> like all the Zach games or Mindustry that I play now
15:54:32 <nakilon> here is the AI I made for example https://dpaste.org/z1Qq/slim
15:55:42 <Taneb> Hmm, I think there's a distinction between an esoteric programming language and one with limited applications, like you have in games
15:55:44 <int-e> they tend to be well (enough) documented inside the respective game, and mostly not too interesting
15:55:47 <Taneb> Some are certainly both
15:56:11 <nakilon> while basically game allows to either switch all the units you produce to go attack immediately or to rest at your base, this program makes them gather in a pack until they reach number 8, then all attack and retreat again if some of them die
15:56:33 <Taneb> TIS-1000 might be a fit on esolangs, the other Zachtronics games that I've played less so
15:56:40 <int-e> On the other hand, some games are accidentally TC and make it on the wiki: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baba_Is_You
15:57:12 <nakilon> Taneb yep, TIS-100 is the candidate I'm thinking about the most
15:57:28 <int-e> And yet, TIS-100 is *made* for programming.
15:57:55 <Taneb> It is made for programming, but to be distinctly unconventional
15:58:03 <int-e> Is it allowed on the wiki... sure. But I think there are reasons why nobody has bothered yet.
15:58:11 <int-e> (hmm, "sure
15:58:13 <int-e> ")
15:59:15 <int-e> I'm actually uncertain about the licensing side of this. I guess describing the pure language is fine, but screenshots may already be tricky?
15:59:42 <nakilon> "they tend to be well (enough) documented inside the respective game" -- those official docs are often read-only, not community driven, and so people make additional manuals on reddit, in their homepages, etc.
16:00:12 <Taneb> I think Opus Magnum is (or might be?) unintentionally turing complete
16:00:15 <int-e> I play those games to figure things out myself :P
16:01:19 <int-e> box-256 with its crazy threading and memory model felt far more esoteric than any of the zachtronics languages I've seen
16:02:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: you can absolutely make such an article. I think I created one on OpenTTD; I might create one for the games that I have played recently, which have some built-in computation with a somewhat interesting model
16:03:52 <b_jonas> "accidentally TC"? Baba Is You being TC isn't even that surprising, I'm not sure you can call it an accident.
16:04:04 <b_jonas> Baba Is You is clearly a programming game
16:04:13 <b_jonas> it doesn't even disguise that
16:04:37 <b_jonas> what's this TIS-100?
16:04:41 <int-e> b_jonas: it does disguise itself as a puzzle game
16:04:43 <b_jonas> is it a Terminator model?
16:04:51 <int-e> b_jonas: a Zachtronics game
16:05:13 <b_jonas> int-e: well of course, Baba is You should have a goal, and puzzles are often the best thing to add
16:05:37 <b_jonas> you can make games that don't specifically have puzzles, you just have to figure out how to use the mechanics effectively
16:05:44 <b_jonas> but some have specific puzzles designed in
16:05:58 <b_jonas> OpenTTD does not have these extra puzzles
16:10:56 <int-e> b_jonas: in any case I'm not convinced that Baba is You is deliberately TC. It obviously is designed to be programmable, but you can get a lot of puzzles out of plain finite state machines.
16:11:06 <int-e> But I don't know.
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16:24:38 <nakilon> b_jonas isn't OpenTTD just Squirel?
16:47:48 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82370&oldid=80081 * Tape * (+16) /* Clamp */
16:48:15 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82371&oldid=82370 * Tape * (+0) /* Math */
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16:58:07 <b_jonas> nakilon: what is a squirel? there doesn't seem to be a wiki entry
16:59:13 <b_jonas> int-e: it might not be deliberately TC, but it's deliberately programmable, and does not have any deliberate restrictions to curtail TCness, eg. it lets all entities move at the same time, lets you spawn any number of the same entity on the same square, there isn't a resource system where creating entities costs you something, etc
17:00:09 <b_jonas> is Baba is You known to be TC on a finite map by the way?
17:00:31 <int-e> I thought there was a Minsky machine
17:00:48 <int-e> which would mean yes.
17:01:44 <b_jonas> int-e: do you have a link or something? I'm curious now
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17:01:56 <b_jonas> I expect that such a thing should exist, but I wonder if someone explicitly proved it
17:03:07 <int-e> I don't have a link at hand. Hence "I thought" rather than the claim and a supporting link :P
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17:07:28 <b_jonas> thanks
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17:29:11 <zzo38> There are some good feature that were supposed to be in HTML, CSS, HTTP, etc, but the features that are usually implemented are usually the bad ones instead.
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17:56:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82372&oldid=78577 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Data types */ Type the data
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18:20:53 <nakilon> b_jonas
18:20:54 <nakilon> https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Development/Script/Squirrel
18:21:21 <nakilon> but maybe you was saying about railroad signs logic
18:25:06 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel_%28programming_language%29
18:25:07 <nakilon> http://www.squirrel-lang.org/
18:27:26 <nakilon> IIRC I used Squirrel for procedural generation in my CS:GO map https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1332505502
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18:45:06 <periish[m]1> hello!
18:45:20 <periish[m]1> i am curious
18:45:42 <periish[m]1> would anyone here define colorforth as an esoteric language, and why? if not, why not?
18:46:09 <imode> funny you say that.
18:46:30 <imode> had a member of the ISO C++ committee argue, long ago, that forth in general was an esoteric language because it's niche and ultimately not widely used.
18:47:04 <imode> by that extension COBOL is esoteric, so..
18:47:06 * imode shrugs.
18:47:23 <zzo38> Was that as part of the C++ committee, or just someone who happened to be a member, arguing independently?
18:47:40 <imode> I _wish_ it was an official statement.
18:47:49 <imode> was just a dude who I hung out with.
18:47:55 <imode> acting independently.
18:48:05 <zzo38> OK
18:48:21 <imode> would've loved to see the standards committee shit-talk forth hobbyists.
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18:48:59 <zzo38> I think somone else on this IRC once mentioned that PostScript is both esoteric and non-esoteric at the same time, and I think that might be about right (it is also general-purpose and domain-specific at the same time, and text and binary at the same time).
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18:49:36 <zzo38> What do you think?
18:49:45 <b_jonas> I don't think that statement would be in-scope for the committee, unless perhaps they want to define a standard for interoperation between that language and C++
18:50:06 <b_jonas> fungot, at what temperature is revenge best served?
18:50:06 <fungot> b_jonas: 2. if the callframe isn't held somewhere, either in scheme, thats y, i get really frustrated with its limitations. the reader can't possibly detect that reasonably, and the
18:50:17 <b_jonas> fungot: celsius or fahrenheit?
18:50:17 <fungot> b_jonas: ( but they're already in scope. i dont believe at microsoft research. aaaaand, guess what, they were already cool, because i'll be doing something *completely* wrong
18:50:43 <b_jonas> "cool", not cold. I assume it's celsius then.
18:50:47 <periish[m]1> i wouldnt call forth itself esoteric
18:52:03 <imode> I guess it depends on your interpretation of the definition of esoteric.
18:52:12 <zzo38> Neither would I, but there may be some interest to some esoteric programmers
18:52:20 <imode> "understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest"
18:52:31 <imode> I'd call Forth esoteric by that definition.
18:52:38 <imode> RPN langs in general, I guess.
18:52:39 <periish[m]1> hm?
18:52:41 <zzo38> (Also, I think I read somewhere that the inventor of INTERCAL programs in PostScript; of course, that has nothing to do with being esoteric or not)
18:52:41 <periish[m]1> how so
18:52:58 <imode> most of the general programming population are not forth users.
18:53:17 <periish[m]1> that is true of most minority languages, yes
18:53:27 <imode> yeah, hence why I said COBOL is technically esoteric.
18:53:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: I assume that was after he invented Intercal, because Postscript is a newer language
18:54:05 <b_jonas> I have exactly one interesting program in postscript, http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/catalan.ps , and I don't think I'll ever write another one
18:54:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, probably.
18:54:32 <imode> I like PostScript. but I like my language more.
18:54:45 <periish[m]1> the thing is, its hard to present something like forth and scheme as esoteric by that definition because they dont really.. close themselves off?
18:55:23 <imode> if you narrow that definition by excluding one of the 'or' clauses, it's "understood by the select few who have interest".
18:56:01 <imode> so, you could make the argument.
18:56:10 <imode> I don't like the argument, but you could make it.
18:56:55 <periish[m]1> aye
18:57:14 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> is Baba is You known to be TC on a finite map by the way? => wait, how, wouldn’t all possible states a finite set in this case?..
18:57:34 <arseniiv> (I haven’t finished the game yet, still, though)
18:57:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can have multiples of the same entity on a square. and I think you can push or destroy one in some way.
18:57:52 <imode> you can have multiples of the same entity on a square?!
18:57:58 <b_jonas> I believe so
18:58:24 <imode> huh.
18:59:11 <imode> yeah that'd be TC if you could push and pop from at least two stacks conditionally form a tape and you're done.
18:59:16 <arseniiv> <periish[m]1> would anyone here define colorforth as an esoteric language, and why? if not, why not? => I would say it’s definitely esoteric even though I’m not too versed in forth and colorforth (but I’ve investigated concatenative programming languages and I heard about colorforth a small deal)
18:59:51 <zzo38> I would think that it would be difficult to see in such a case unless there is some sort of inspection menu (like Free Hero Mesh has)
19:00:32 <arseniiv> <imode> by that extension COBOL is esoteric, so.. => wait how nononononono it shouldn’t, esoteric languages should be at least quite fun and not corporative
19:01:07 <imode> arseniiv: it hurts, but it's true. :(
19:01:36 <zzo38> Also, there might be the case for some things to be called "quasi-esoteric", although, it is unsure.
19:01:46 <b_jonas> what do you mean? BANCStar is clearly commercial and still counts as esoteric
19:02:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can have multiples of the same entity on a square. and I think you can push or destroy one in some way. => thanks! Yep indeed now I remember a couple of clipping situations, though it would be interesting to know how to remove exactly one of entities
19:03:18 <b_jonas> perhaps you can't *push* one off, but I think you can destroy one
19:03:36 <zzo38> Also see the prehistory of esoteric programming.
19:03:39 <b_jonas> and add one, and check if there's at least one left, which should be enough, if you get some control structures working
19:03:49 <imode> question is, is it a bug, or is it a feature.
19:04:07 <imode> if it's a bug would it be right to call baba is you turing complete, or a particular version of baba is you turing complete when/if the bug is fixed.
19:04:13 <arseniiv> <imode> arseniiv: it hurts, but it's true. :( => I think now it’s time to devise an arith… esoteric hierarchy. Like, sum languages, product languages and delta languages which no one understands what that means
19:04:24 <b_jonas> I don't think it's a bg
19:04:39 <imode> arseniiv: fun languages.
19:05:40 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> what do you mean? => commerce kills fun! I have a signed evidence somewhere in an imaginary room
19:06:29 <arseniiv> <imode> question is, is it a bug, or is it a feature. => I think I remember one puzzle requiring that clipping/stacking of entities
19:07:39 <zzo38> Does Baba Is You have an inspection menu like Free Hero Mesh has, or anything else that would allow to see what it is (e.g. displaying a number in the grid if there is more than one)?
19:07:57 <arseniiv> I have a sweet spot for Minsky machines and my generalized kind of them, and someone not from here gave me an idea to write a story book about them. But I don’t know what story that could be
19:08:54 <arseniiv> zzo38: if there’s no new stuff in the level editor (which I haven’t seen yet) then probably no
19:09:08 <imode> I take it you prefer the 2-register minsky machine
19:09:49 <arseniiv> I like to use an arbitrary inductive family of polynomial types instead of just Nat = S | Z Nat
19:10:03 <arseniiv> Nat = Z | S Nat, sorry of course
19:10:08 <zzo38> One nonstandard feature I often use when programming in PostScript is the possibility to read command-line arguments, which is implemented in Ghostscript by defining a array named ARGUMENTS which has the command-line arguments.
19:11:05 <arseniiv> like you can have { Even = Z | S1 Odd; Odd = S2 Even } or { Nat = Z | S Nat; List = Nil | Cons Nat List } or binary naturals or something else
19:11:06 <zzo38> (And, it is a feature I would want to standardize in the next version of PostScript, which if official would be called "level 4 PostScript", but since it isn't, I should call it "Computer PostScript".)
19:12:04 <arseniiv> very versatile, and you can just as easily generalize the recursive function formalism to that too, so they remain in step with each other. For me this is really neat I can’t get over it
19:12:35 <b_jonas> "an arbitrary inductive family of polynomial types" => at which point they're not just Minsky machines, they're at *least* stack machines
19:12:42 <arseniiv> imode: ↑
19:12:44 <b_jonas> possibly more, because they could manipulate trees too
19:13:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: but I think Nat is a stack of elements, we just can’t discern them
19:14:00 <arseniiv> though I agree they can be classified any way which would make sense
19:14:01 <imode> what you're telling me is that everything is all linear media.
19:14:28 <arseniiv> in optical sense?
19:14:31 <zzo38> What kind of features would you want to add/change in PostScript? (I have many ideas myself, including removing a small number of things that are in level 3 PostScript, which would not be applicable to Computer PostScript, such as the system parameter to count the total number of pages ever printed, which is only applicable on printers, not on the computer)
19:14:35 <imode> in a tape/stack sense.
19:14:47 <imode> zzo38: custom syntax would be nice.
19:15:28 <arseniiv> ah, then I don’t know what is a linear medium/a
19:15:29 <zzo38> imode: Can you give an example? You can already read arbitrary text inline from the source file by using the "currentfile" operator
19:16:19 <imode> arseniiv: basically anything that can be expressed/is-a linear sequence.
19:18:47 <arseniiv> I think it’s also neat that as easily we can have a generalized Minsky machine for { Bool = False | True } and that would be just a finite state machine which is not TC, but also we can have all those TC machines. Though then it’s just those two: either TC or functions between finite sets, nothing inbetween nor anything more than TC
19:19:42 <imode> wouldn't that generalized minsky machine just be a finite state machine with different kinds of memory.
19:21:40 <arseniiv> imode: hmmm. Well at least we know many countable sets don’t have a computable bijection with ℕ so they aren’t necessary a sets of sequences; also for many sets that do, there are no natural computable bijections so we have full rights to treat them as having their own structure which is not related to ℕ. For example all those types like lists of nats or pairs of nats or whatever
19:22:37 <imode> arseniiv: I can't read that glyph, is that R?
19:22:37 <arseniiv> <imode> wouldn't that generalized minsky machine just be a finite state machine with different kinds of memory. => I think in general only if you can say that about the usual Minsky machine (I don’t know)
19:22:47 <arseniiv> imode: \mathbb N
19:23:01 <imode> ah.
19:23:33 <arseniiv> it displays in my IRC client in a strange manner, I don’t know what font substitution black magic is there
19:24:03 <arseniiv> so I better abstain from using it, then
19:25:23 <arseniiv> imode: there is a technical description of GM machines on the wiki, I placed it somewhere, I’ll post a link, though my descriptions are too dense usually
19:26:06 <arseniiv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Generalized_Minsky_machine
19:29:07 <imode> that still implies a data structure with a successor/predecessor operation.
19:45:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82373&oldid=82372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+836) Put more things onto the page
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20:08:52 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82374&oldid=82045 * Zzo38 * (+169)
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22:26:09 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: shocking. <-- it made sense in context. well, to me anyway.
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22:28:46 <b_jonas> `recipe
22:28:48 <HackEso> black pepper \ -(10 oz) orange juice \ 1 ts Cornstarch \ 1/2 ts Cayenne pepper \ 1/2 ts Pepper \ 3 tb Granulated sugar \ 2 c Canned peaches, drained \ - minced \ 2 ts Baking soda \ 8 oz Green onions \ \ Combine flour and butter or cooking spray. Topped: Cook beef and peppers. \ Cool completely. \ \ Preheat oven to 375F. To cool completely onto prepared cheesecloth. Cover and simmer for 30 minutes, until \ all ingredients are d
22:29:08 <b_jonas> peaches with onion, pepper and more pepper?
22:29:15 <b_jonas> oh, it ha beef too\
22:29:44 <b_jonas> cheesecloth
22:29:48 <b_jonas> what's a cheesecloth?
22:30:38 <fizzie> Isn't it a sort of a gauze-like fabric?
22:30:47 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some subtle difference.
22:31:27 <fizzie> You can use it as a filter to strain things, I think. I don't think it makes too much sense in that context.
22:31:39 <b_jonas> ok
22:33:22 <fizzie> For some reason I always associate "mince" with meat, which makes the mince pies they eat here at Christmas always sound a little odd. (Also, I don't like the taste at all.)
22:34:23 <fizzie> `` recipe | paste
22:34:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.24487
22:34:48 <fizzie> I was hoping the formatting would be better, but it really wasn't all *that* much.
22:35:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, but if it had meat, then it would sound odd because you associate "pie" with fruits and flour-based light dough
22:37:09 <fizzie> They do a lot of meat-based pies here too. Steak and ale pies and so on.
22:37:23 <b_jonas> ok
22:37:56 <fizzie> And of course shepherd's pie and cottage pie, neither of which has *anything* to do with an actual pie.
22:38:34 <b_jonas> yeah, the British have all sorts of strange food names, like "pudding" that has meat
22:39:03 <b_jonas> not that our food names are better
22:39:07 <b_jonas> I'm just more used to them
22:39:10 <fizzie> Shepherd's / cottage pie is a dish that's got lamb or minced beef on the bottom together with carrots and such, and then it's covered with mashed potatoes.
22:39:26 <fizzie> I guess it looks vaguely pie-ish when it comes out of the oven.
23:39:29 <zzo38> I read that someone made a blank page in Microsoft Word and converted it to PDF, and it is twelve kilobytes. Why does it need twelve kilobytes for just one blank page? I did the same on my computer with Ghostscript and it is only two kilobytes long (approximately)
23:46:56 <zzo38> Does Microsoft Word add some stuff extra that Ghostscript doesn't add?
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