←2021-04-22 2021-04-23 2021-04-24→ ↑2021 ↑all
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00:15:03 <kmc> `recipe
00:15:04 <HackEso> ​ In a large bowl, combine flour, 1 fat for \ peppercorns, tomato paste and salt in a large bowl. Sprinkle \ more or cold water; beat together cookie sheets. Beat in Egg; \ Cut in small ball of the brown sugar in the bowl. Fill the \ cacaof and or steaming, or should be for a mortar. Then add the sugar and \ saute onion and salt and pepper. Beat the olives or lettuce, \ onions,peppy chiles, salt, and blend all ingredients. Season cream
00:16:47 <zzo38> Are you going to cook any of those recipes? (Although, there are some problems with it, such as they don't tell you how much flour, tomato paste, salt, etc)
00:19:56 <kmc> it would be... interesting
00:20:24 <kmc> i can imagine a beef and peach pie being good
00:20:32 <kmc> but you would need to be careful about the other ingredients
00:21:57 <kmc> yes, cheesecloth is a cotton cloth used for straining solids and squeezing out liquids
00:22:00 <kmc> such as when making cheese
00:22:05 <kmc> or cannabutter :3
00:23:21 <kmc> b_jonas: what's extra weird is the British use of "pudding" to mean dessert in general
00:23:29 <kmc> as in "how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat"
00:23:35 <kmc> in this case meat pudding is not pudding!
00:28:27 <zzo38> Yes, some words have more than one meaning, and sometimes that is confusing.
00:46:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82375&oldid=82315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+269) /* Copyright violations */ Make reply
00:47:57 <zzo38> One idea of HTML is to allow an optional AUTH attribute for any <FORM> and <A>; if specified, it specifies the authentication method to use, and other information that is required for that method to work. It can safely be ignored; it is there in order that it can optionally be handled as a part of the form, before it is submitted, but if it is ignored, it will be handled once the reponse is received.
00:49:21 <zzo38> I saw mention of a command to group multiple headings together; I don't know if any software implements this, but, with my idea of a table of contents window, it could be used (if grouping is enabled by the user) to display the heading and subheading on one line if that it applicable to the structure of the document.
00:58:18 <zzo38> (Many of my ideas, together, involve some things that probably cannot be done with existing engines unless a lot of modifications are made.)
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03:39:10 <pikhq> what if meat pudding, pudding
05:36:30 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82376&oldid=81521 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+13)
05:49:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82377&oldid=82362 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+539) /* Befunk */ 10 cells within 2 lines. Sorry, I haven't learnt how to put pictures here. Not sure if working
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08:00:32 <esowiki> [[Gifunk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82378 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+456) /* Examples */
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12:29:06 <nakilon> I think the "esoteric" should mean "has features that made the language harder to use on purpose"
12:30:45 <nakilon> (while the esolang wiki does not focus on such definition to chose which langauges to document)
12:31:50 <nakilon> by my definition asm and dc aren't esoteric while befunge and TIS-100 are
12:32:47 <Tape> Where would I put a page for the Wireworld Computer (https://www.quinapalus.com/wi-index.html)?
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14:39:46 <esowiki> [[Gifunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82379&oldid=82378 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Cat
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14:55:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Amqzon * New user account
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14:59:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82380&oldid=82334 * Amqzon * (+163) added my welcome message :)
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16:47:57 <zzo38> I like the existing definitions for esoteric programming found in Wikipedia ("designed to test the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, as software art, as a hacking interface to another language (particularly functional programming or procedural programming languages), or as a joke") and esolang wiki ("experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical us
16:48:27 <zzo38> These definitions might be perhaps a bit incomplete, and it might not always be as clear as a simple definition like that, but it works for now.
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17:00:48 <b_jonas> fungot, what do you call a map whose square is the identity?
17:00:49 <fungot> b_jonas: ( file fnord scheme)." at work.
17:01:39 <kmc> I wasn't sure whether Qoppa qualifies as esoteric but it does according to the Wikipedia definition (first two clauses in particular)
17:02:21 <kmc> it's not deliberately hard to use, or deliberately complicated
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17:02:28 <kmc> but then again neither is Brainfuck
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17:24:27 <zzo38> I don't know how to make up a better definition.
17:24:47 <kmc> "I know it when I see it"
17:25:17 <kmc> there are also programming languages that unintentionally have esoteric qualities
17:25:36 <kmc> or things that function as esoteric languages that were never intended to be programming languages at all
17:25:51 <zzo38> "I know it when I see it" can be unclear too, and not always in agreement. But, yes, there are programming languages that unintentionally have esoteric qualities, and things that function as esoteric languages that were never intended to be programming languages at all, too.
17:26:02 <kmc> C++ is the former, C++ templates are the latter :P
17:27:40 <imode> the difference between the "good" esoteric definition and the "bad" esoteric definition is aesthetic.
17:28:04 <imode> an esoteric aesthetic is "something that doesn't line up with common trends".
17:28:27 <imode> esoteric languages have this aesthetic.
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17:29:35 <pikhq> In my opinion you can also do esoteric programming in objectively _not_ esoteric programming languages, by doing so in unusual ways. Making heavy use of obscure features, for example.
17:30:06 <pikhq> (some entries in the IOCCC feel like they count, for example)
17:30:12 <zzo38> You might also examine on the esolang wiki where someone wrote about VAX, about prehistory of esoteric programming, and about programming languages with unusual features.
17:30:25 <imode> that fits the traditional definition of esoteric, where not a lot of people really use those features.
17:31:06 <imode> but COBOL/C++ templates/etc. don't really have an esoteric aesthetic. they _were_ popular at some point, or are a part of a larger system.
17:31:21 <int-e> pikhq: indeed some IOCCC entries do have their own esolang page
17:31:34 <pikhq> ah right :)
17:31:44 <zzo38> Also, can a programming language be esoteric and not esoteric at the same time? I think someone (other than myself) on this IRC said this about PostScript, although that isn't the only possibility/ Also, it may be more complicated than that.
17:32:00 <imode> forth. it went to space, but doesn't get much use.
17:32:01 <pikhq> zzo38: I wanna say that was RodgerTheGreat?
17:32:05 <pikhq> Sounds like him at least
17:33:01 <zzo38> Maybe, but I am not sure; see if you can find it in the logs; I think it was recent (within the past month)
17:33:15 <pikhq> oh huh
17:33:29 <pikhq> In that case not him; he's not been in this channel for... quite some time
17:34:04 <zzo38> (Something else I can say about PostScript is that it is both general-purpose and domain-specific.)
17:34:22 <pikhq> imode: Yeah COBOL is very much not esoteric, just archaic. C++ templates... only if you're using the turing tarpit nature of them
17:34:27 <zzo38> Well, there is the possibility that sometimes more than one person will have the same ideas
17:36:04 <imode> pikhq: thing is, by definition they can be considered esoteric... but the thing that gets you onto the esowiki, for example, is the aesthetic. they're intended to be esoteric by design. COBOL just kinda.. became that with time.
17:36:14 * pikhq nods
17:36:27 <pikhq> COBOL was a _completely_ normal and mundane programming language of its time
17:36:34 <zzo38> imode: Yes, I think you are probably correct
17:36:36 <pikhq> It's just that time is now historical
17:39:19 <b_jonas> no, COBOL sucked already when it was created
17:39:29 <b_jonas> it's like Excel, a programming language intended for non-programmers
17:39:47 <imode> yeah but you didn't consider excel esoteric at the time it was made.
17:40:03 <kmc> I enjoy spreadsheet programming a lot
17:40:52 <b_jonas> kmc: even when the keywords are translated and you have to keep looking up how you spell VKERES in English or SQRT in Hungarian?
17:41:20 <kmc> :P
17:42:11 <zzo38> Does it allow you to set the keywords to English when the menus are written in other languages, if you want to do?
17:42:47 <zzo38> Did you read: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Programming_languages_with_unusual_features http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures
17:43:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think so, at least not if the menus are in Hungarian. maybe there's some language where the keywords are not translated, so you get English function names. but on the plus side, current versions of Excel just let you download the English language pack from the internet and use Office in English, rather than having to buy a separate installer
17:45:49 <zzo38> (Some of the features of VAX are actually ones that (prior to knowing about VAX) are also what my ideas were for designing an instruction set too, including the huge VLIW microcode with each instruction having a jump, and the orthogonal instruction set with the possibility to write to immediates, it turns out)
17:45:54 <b_jonas> so I actually have all the software working in English on my work machine. this did require me to set the language to English in at least five places, and to figure out how to reset Firefox to English every two years when they change how it works, but it's totally worth.
17:47:04 <b_jonas> fungot, how long is the longest infix made of only letter "i"s in the word Hawaiian when it's spelled correctly?
17:48:20 <b_jonas> like five years ago, I still had to deal with some of the software messages in Hungarian
17:49:28 <int-e> I think as far as the wiki is concerned, we have used a fairly inclusive definition of "esoteric". So, a page on TIS-100 is likely to survive if it's not ripping off in-game material or spoiling all the tasks (which would raise copyright concerns wrt. CC0). Heck we tolerate (begrudgingly) a ton of Brainfuck variations, we can suffer a more constructive contribution which doesn't feel as purely...
17:49:34 <int-e> ...esoteric.
17:50:02 <int-e> (Re: nakilon)
17:50:49 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, we're inclusive as a public service, to serve as a trap to divert useless content away from Wikipedias
17:51:07 <int-e> b_jonas: that's... cynical
17:51:52 <b_jonas> well that's not the only goal of the esoteric wiki, but it's a good reason to be inclusive
17:52:31 <int-e> Another good reason is that it's a wiki. Apart from making `random page` more noisy, there isn't really much harm in having another page.
17:52:44 <int-e> :P
17:53:42 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, though the names of some of them are stupid. like https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX . we should rename that page.
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18:38:26 <b_jonas> fungot: got it, it's called an involution
18:38:31 <b_jonas> `? involution
18:38:33 <HackEso> involution? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:38:35 <b_jonas> `? amortized
18:38:37 <HackEso> An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember.
18:47:27 <arseniiv_> hm
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20:31:51 <river> tricking IRC bots into looping is the highest art form
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