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01:23:29 <esowiki> [[Container]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83026&oldid=79726 * Bangyen * (+416)
01:23:57 <esowiki> [[Container]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83027&oldid=83026 * Bangyen * (-2)
01:25:58 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83028&oldid=83021 * Bangyen * (+16) /* Implementations */
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01:36:11 <zzo38> {-} Conspiracy ;; Hidden agenda ;; When ~ is faced up, you may pay {2/U}{2/U}. If you paid, or if target spell's name is the chosen name, counter that spell.
01:39:57 <zzo38> What is your comment of this?
01:58:02 <imode> what would the actor model look like without the idea of a "process ID" or "address", I wonder, and instead replace that with some sort of adjacency requirement.
01:59:02 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83029&oldid=82712 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+110) /* Ideas for Names */ Implemented suggestions
01:59:59 <imode> a distributed idea of "what address belongs to who" is expensive to maintain, to the point of requiring entirely different software services to facilitate a mapping between identifiers and the actual processes (or machines) they signify.
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02:02:15 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83030&oldid=83029 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+105) /* Music */
02:05:54 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83031&oldid=83030 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+81) /* General Ideas */
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03:02:50 <esowiki> [[Spider solitaire]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83032 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+174) Added content
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03:20:25 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83033&oldid=82853 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+23) [http://www.archimedes-lab.org/tangramagicus/pagetang4.html# s]
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03:46:08 <esowiki> [[Num]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83034 * AndrewBayly * (+2415) Created page with "Num is an esoteric programming language that is also a subset of JavaScript. In most high level languages there is some representation of the natural numbers, or at least Inc..."
03:46:28 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83035&oldid=83034 * AndrewBayly * (+0)
03:48:11 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83036&oldid=83035 * AndrewBayly * (+24)
03:50:43 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83037&oldid=83036 * AndrewBayly * (-8)
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03:56:07 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83038&oldid=83037 * AndrewBayly * (+548)
03:57:04 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83039&oldid=83038 * AndrewBayly * (+7) /* Implementation */
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04:01:36 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83040&oldid=83039 * AndrewBayly * (+5534)
04:04:34 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83041&oldid=83040 * AndrewBayly * (+2598)
04:05:02 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83042&oldid=83041 * AndrewBayly * (-2) /* Arithmetic and Logical Operators */
04:05:58 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83043&oldid=83042 * AndrewBayly * (+459) /* Primes 1 through 8 */
04:06:19 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83044&oldid=83043 * AndrewBayly * (+154) /* Squares 0 through 3 */
04:06:45 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83045&oldid=83044 * AndrewBayly * (+141) /* Factorial 3 */
04:08:05 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83046&oldid=83045 * AndrewBayly * (+83)
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04:16:05 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83047&oldid=83046 * AndrewBayly * (+99) /* Pre-defined Functions */
04:27:01 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83048&oldid=83047 * AndrewBayly * (+170)
04:27:14 <esowiki> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83049&oldid=83048 * AndrewBayly * (+0) /* Turing-completeness */
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06:17:57 <zzo38> Maybe the "Four" and "Eight" keywords in Free Hero Mesh should be changed to "Rook" and "Queen" instead.
06:22:14 <zzo38> (But, not today; today I will sleep instead.)
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08:18:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83050&oldid=83020 * Sech1p * (+16) Add nya~ language
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09:23:00 <arseniiv> hm if one can say our inductive type N might contain nonstandard naturals which just have no closed terms corresponding to them, could a type X → Y contain uncomputable functions in it?.. Seems plausible but I don’t remember where did I read about nonstandards inside N. Maybe that was about equality types x = y, being inhabited not necessary only by refl_x terms
09:24:08 <arseniiv> but also some nontrivial loops and paths between different elements which just aren’t that different so it all still satisfies path induction
09:26:02 <arseniiv> likewise as you know nonstandars naturals satisfy the first-order induction. Though I don’t know how it translates to induction from a dependent-type theory: it might be a bit more strict due to all the types?.. (and cumulative type universes, if one takes a theory like HoTT in this regard)
09:27:46 <arseniiv> so it seems to make sense that function types would contain uncomputable functions “deep within”. But as I said I don’t remember arguments for that, like why would we want to say it? It seems we should want, for metalogic stuff to make more sense, but how exactly
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12:14:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83051&oldid=83018 * Sanscicondos * (+233)
12:16:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Sanscicondos * uploaded "[[File:Cheese slice.jpg]]": Royalty free image of a cheese slice. Src: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.peakpx.com%2F545414%2Fyellow-slice-cheese&psig=AOvVaw2Yopg2e5tX2Y-1hsl5V81i&ust=1621512748340000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAMQjB1qFwoTCJDTpu7b1fACFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD
12:16:35 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83053&oldid=83016 * Sanscicondos * (+2) added royalty free cheese
12:17:02 <fizzie> I heard there's no such thing as free cheese, but that seems to contradict the assertion.
12:17:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83054&oldid=83051 * Sanscicondos * (+2) mmmmm formatting
12:19:37 <mniip> I've resigned from volunteering for freenode for a good reason and I think you should know as well: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt (sorry for the spam (wait that's cliche))
12:20:28 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83055&oldid=83014 * Sanscicondos * (+246) explanation to Hello World added
12:21:31 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83056&oldid=83053 * Sanscicondos * (-140) removed unneeded link
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12:24:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:General disclaimer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83057 * Sanscicondos * (+115) Created page with "====If you wish to inquire about the exact makeup of the Esolangs Wiki and its ingredients, please do so below.===="
12:26:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83058&oldid=83057 * Sanscicondos * (+320)
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12:28:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83059&oldid=83058 * Sanscicondos * (+99)
12:33:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83060&oldid=83059 * Sanscicondos * (+533) added pages with percentages
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12:54:41 <myname> so, is #esoteric going to move?
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12:59:42 <fizzie> Out of abundance of caution I did go ahead and register ##esoteric over on libera, and was just about to start a thread on [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] on whether an `#esolangs` community registration would be reasonable. But I think we might as well wait a bit to see what exactly happens. A number of Real Channels™ sound like they're going to just migrate though.
13:00:53 <myname> according to the second update in https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 it might just be a reasonable idea
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13:05:54 <fizzie> Yeah, obviously anyone who's uncomfortable simply being connected to freenode.net should do what they must. But I think I'll still be giving it a day or three before migrating things I'm responsible for, mostly because I kind of find it hard to come up with anything particularly nefarious a malicious entity could do with esolangs.org wiki updates or the kind of things fungot spouts out.
13:05:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, first of all, there was also my mother, my sister and my wife. his wife said to him: ' europe's currencies will be coexisting. lack of security, justice and home affairs remain too vague. we have to admit that we must totally change our quota system and at last i am in complete agreement. i hope that a call will come from rethinking whether our structural programme for social measures. so if you will allow
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13:11:54 <chibi> Hm? What's going on with freenode?
13:13:40 <chibi> >Freenode staff have stepped down. The network that runs at freenode.org/net/com should be assumed to be under control of a malicious party.
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13:27:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83061&oldid=81119 * Fizzie * (+1958) /* Freenode and the future */ new section
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13:36:19 <op_4> chibi: https://kline.sh, among others
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14:02:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Batata * New user account
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14:26:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83062&oldid=83025 * Batata * (+145)
14:30:31 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83063 * Batata * (+8) Created page with "i'm dumb"
14:31:27 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83064&oldid=83063 * Batata * (-1)
14:31:55 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83065&oldid=83064 * Batata * (+42)
14:32:43 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83066&oldid=83065 * Batata * (-37)
14:33:28 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83067&oldid=83066 * Batata * (+38)
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14:45:30 * Sgeo blinks at current Freenode controversy
14:45:55 <Taneb> Yeah, it's a whole thing
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14:55:50 <arseniiv> >Freenode staff have stepped down. The network that runs at freenode.org/net/com should be assumed to be under control of a malicious party. => woah
14:56:04 <esowiki> [[Neat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83068&oldid=83019 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+130) Cats
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15:04:24 <arseniiv> really scared me about NickServ db, dropped the account but hm maybe that’s insufficient
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15:19:05 <Taneb> God, I'm so drained
15:28:04 <Taneb> I have had some water and some chocolate and I am still drained
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15:31:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83069&oldid=83054 * Sanscicondos * (-1221)
15:33:36 <arseniiv> a bath or a shower make wonders sometimes, though of course you need to be home for that
15:34:49 <nooga> long time no talk hehehe
15:35:01 <nooga> aren't you guys moving to libera?
15:37:42 <Taneb> arseniiv: and also not on the clock
15:44:43 <fizzie> nooga: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future
15:45:58 <arseniiv> <int-e> hmm, dungeon, or ruins? => now both of them are partially complete
15:47:29 <oren> I am going to keep both libera and freenode until i know more
15:48:18 <int-e> I grabbed a #esoteric registration on Libera, I still haven't figured out what's really happening.
15:48:32 <fizzie> int-e: I registered ##esoteric, because I really don't think we should have #esoteric per the policy.
15:48:40 <fizzie> It's really a historical accident we have on freenode.
15:49:07 <Taneb> fizzie: I can see the argument for us having #esoteric as a registered community
15:49:16 <fizzie> Taneb: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future
15:49:27 <fizzie> And I think it should be called #esolangs if registered as a community.
15:49:56 <Taneb> Well, now I need to figure out how to reply to a thread on talk page...
15:50:22 <int-e> I guess I could just forward people to ##esoteric then for now
15:50:46 <fizzie> Press edit on the section, put a... was it a `:`, in front of your comment, to indent it... something like that. MediaWiki isn't *great* for discussions, but I think it'd be nice to have it on the record.
15:51:08 <Taneb> I'll figure it out in a few minutes
15:52:51 <fizzie> I'm really not relishing the prospect of having double the number of windows in my IRC client, but based on the amount of "I don't care" comments on the channels I've been on, it wouldn't surprise me if it's not a clean break.
16:08:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83070&oldid=83061 * Taneb * (+237)
16:09:28 <nakilon> what do you guys know about https://www.kline.sh/
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16:14:33 <int-e> fizzie: there's alway +q *!*@* ;-)
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16:18:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Axuary * New user account
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16:21:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83071&oldid=83062 * Axuary * (+51) /* Introductions */
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16:23:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83072&oldid=83071 * Axuary * (+78)
16:29:10 <int-e> fizzie: and yeah I'm not relishing it either... I mainly went on the server with the wild west attitude of stating a claim. make sure nobody else grabs my precious nick...
16:30:14 <int-e> fizzie: I went as far as to make a new shell account just for the purpose so that right now I have a mirror of my irc client that connects to libera instead of freenode... that's not really sustainable.
16:31:31 <int-e> I'm kind of hoping that whole channels will switch over, or not, so that I can merge the two irssi instances again.
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16:38:19 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that'd be optimal. But I suspect there's some serious inertia to overcome. Unless a channel's administrators decide to force the issue.
16:38:45 <fizzie> How many hours before the first freenode-libera bridge goes up? ;)
16:40:38 <ais523> it'd be nice to have some sort of universal bridge between all the competing chat setups
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16:53:45 <op_4> oh hey ais523, about 13 years ago you helped me on my highschool maths homework. Thanks!
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17:02:03 * op_4 went by hiato back then, iirc
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17:05:07 <op_4> woo, alright my work here is done
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17:31:22 <pikhq> i've registered over there, i'll move whereever this channel goes
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17:32:32 <imode> what the fuck is going on.
17:33:20 <imode> what happened to freenode.
17:37:51 <int-e> Drama. I'm still figuring it out... https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html is a third party view at least.
17:38:37 <imode> thanks.. what the hell.
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17:44:47 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83073&oldid=82654 * Makonede * (+263)
17:45:10 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83074&oldid=83073 * Makonede * (+1)
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17:48:00 <imode> can I get an invite.
17:48:06 <imode> to libera's esoteric channel.
17:48:21 <fizzie> You should just need a registered nickname.
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17:48:44 <fizzie> As for why it's +r, there was a giant wave of "THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.FREENODE.NET" spam.
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17:50:27 <int-e> fizzie: that seems to have subsided though.
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17:52:41 <fizzie> I guess we could take +r off for a while then.
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18:03:06 <imode> so, large question, _who_ had the authority to sell to a cryptobro.
18:03:49 <imode> I have been on this network for what seems like fuckin' ages.
18:04:07 <imode> who do I nut-punch for this.
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18:06:33 <zzo38> I am not sure that using Freenode will be a problem; disable requiring an account if you are concerned about the accounts, I suppose. If it does end up with problem, you can try to change it later, I suppose.
18:06:52 <zzo38> Or, set up your own IRC server.
18:07:08 <sech1p> what the hell happened with freenode?
18:07:14 <sech1p> because i don't understand
18:07:19 <imode> https://www.kline.sh/
18:07:40 <imode> some fucks sold the network to a cryptobro.
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18:21:10 <esowiki> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83075&oldid=75659 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+12578) Formatted the documentation, amended orthographic mistakes, and added an exemplary implementation in Common Lisp.
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18:25:25 <int-e> yeah it's not looking pretty
18:30:36 <zzo38> But, if you want to move into other IRC, can do and then we can connect on there instead. But, not unless is mentioned who it is, and the logs must be moved too
18:31:17 <imode> zzo38: the channel is already up.
18:31:41 <imode> https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
18:35:31 <zzo38> Yes, but I would hope also whoever manages this channel and the logs would handle it properly, including adding the mention of the server and channel name
18:37:03 <esowiki> [[Nya~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83076&oldid=83024 * Sech1p * (+121) Add Java nya~ implementation
18:39:57 <fizzie> Well, we'd need to sort of officially decide to move first. I think it's reasonable to give it a bit of time to see how the rest of freenode jumps.
18:40:13 <fizzie> I will set up a parallel instance of the logs I maintain, though.
18:40:48 <fizzie> (Not sure how to render the transition time if we decide to move over for good. Just merging the logs would probably be more than a little confusing.)
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18:48:01 <int-e> fizzie: merge the files, render one half with RTL
18:56:00 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83077&oldid=81502 * Sech1p * (+109) Add Malbolge implementation
18:59:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83078&oldid=83072 * Sech1p * (-7) Delete unnecessary repeat of my nickname
19:07:39 <zzo38> The log format we have doesn't have multiple servers, I think. If you have internally SQL then you can add a column, but that is not working for the exposed log format
19:13:24 <esowiki> [[BrainIf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83079 * VilgotanL * (+1425) created the page
19:14:36 <esowiki> [[BrainIf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83080&oldid=83079 * VilgotanL * (+0) swap computational class and implementations
19:18:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mase * New user account
19:20:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83081&oldid=83078 * Mase * (+114)
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19:43:41 <Sgeo> Is Gregor active enough to switch HackEso here if/when we move?
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19:50:30 <fizzie> Sgeo: I run HackEso, that's why it's called HackEso rather than HackEgo.
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19:52:18 <fizzie> Also considering running a second instance in parallel for now, since the architecture should in theory have no trouble with that (and changes made in a different network aren't any less understandable than changes made via private message).
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20:10:25 <esowiki> [[BrainIf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83082&oldid=83080 * Bangyen * (+10455)
20:11:41 <imode> https://twitter.com/freenodestaff/status/1395046345145307140
20:11:47 <imode> andrew lee et. al. now have full control.
20:13:42 <int-e> I should move lambdabot over :P
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20:17:14 <esowiki> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83083&oldid=83075 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+259) Added further documentation, elucidating the instructions and the interpreter implementation.
20:17:50 <esowiki> [[BrainIf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83084&oldid=83082 * Bangyen * (-6) /* Hello, world! */
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20:25:27 <esowiki> [[BrainIf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83085&oldid=83084 * Bangyen * (+25)
20:26:00 <esowiki> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83086&oldid=81339 * Sech1p * (+106) Add Pascal implementation
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20:26:30 <esowiki> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83087&oldid=83086 * Sech1p * (+1) /* Pascal */
20:28:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fargo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83088 * Bangyen * (+257) Created page with "== [[Truth-machine]] == How's the Truth-machine supposed to work? The first line looks like an infinitely recursive function, while the second line looks like it does nothing...."
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20:53:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esolanger * New user account
20:54:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83089&oldid=83081 * Esolanger * (+42) /* Introductions */
21:01:13 <Guest75150> We dont need to move anywhere else. We have freenode
21:01:29 <imode> we don't have it anymore.
21:04:10 <Guest75150> Yes we do. The server is still working, we can still communicate: thats all that matters
21:04:39 <imode> if that's all that matters, please ignore the wiretapping capabilities that the administrators are now afforded the next time you have a private conversation.
21:04:54 <imode> hope you like being milked for all you're worth as the intent is to turn IRC into Discord. https://irc.com/
21:05:12 <Guest75150> Freenode will remain the worlds number 1 irc server and all those channels will come back. When people think about IRC, they think freenode
21:05:26 <Guest75150> When people think of search, they think google
21:05:36 <imode> but have fun hanging out in a dead network, I guess.
21:05:52 <Guest75150> Is duckduckgo better than google? Yes. Is libera better than frenode? Yes
21:08:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jetison333 * New user account
21:11:22 <esowiki> [[RCEM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83090&oldid=83083 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2) Corrected two mistakenly unterminated ``<code>'' tags.
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21:17:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:Esolanger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83091 * Esolanger * (+945) Created page with "I made an Esolang called "ShortJV" ShortJV means short Java And Java, yeah there is no way in hell I am going to code a line as big as the earth. <pre> class Project > fn m..."
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21:40:15 <zzo38> Something that neither Freenode nor Libera it seems to do, is other channel types, and server-side public logs
21:41:30 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> so it's now looking rather about scandals than music I guess" => wait, was it (Eurovision) ever about music? must have been before my time.
21:43:48 <fizzie> I don't when it's been about music, but I feel it's been more about spectacle (and grumbling about unfair voting patterns) than scandals in the past.
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21:44:16 <fizzie> In any case, I watch it now because it's become a habit.
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21:55:30 <b_jonas> wait, so what "private data" on freenode are these scaremongers talking about? the one with the three active public logs?
21:56:40 <int-e> b_jonas: mostly the email address that you probably didn't need yet when you registered 15 years ago
21:57:02 <b_jonas> which one? ambrus@math.bme.hu ? that's pretty public too
21:57:08 <b_jonas> or it might be a plus-prefixed one
21:57:13 <int-e> I expect it'll be a death by a thousand needles thing.
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21:57:38 <b_jonas> do we actually know if any of those supposed resignation letters are from freenode ops, or are they just random links people throw around?
21:57:57 <b_jonas> I'm suspicious of any new thing that people say will replace freenode, when it's a new thing every year
21:58:05 <b_jonas> sometimes it's matrix, sometimes discord, sometimes telegram
21:58:12 <int-e> *apparently* a previous IRC network that Andrew Lee got involved in started to snoop on private messages; I'm not clear on whether there was a causal link (it was suggested, but not stated)
21:58:16 <b_jonas> if they stop and start saying the same thing for eight years, then I'll consider changing
21:58:38 <pikhq> FireFly, who is one of the Freenode staff members who just resigned recently, can probably confirm
21:58:53 <int-e> The one thing that really gets me is that Freenode's old staff basically abandoned ship.
21:59:22 <b_jonas> also if we want to leave, why would it be some new thing that someone sets up recently, rather than oftc which has been running strong and with a similar enough culture to freenode (except I think the two arguments to NICKSERV IDENTIFY are swapped so be careful with that, but maybe that's another network)?
21:59:28 <int-e> That tells me that the shit is hitting the fan and convinced me to at least be prepared to switch over at a moment's notice.
21:59:46 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but do we actually have proof for that, like any freenode staff confirming that those letter are from them?
21:59:59 <fizzie> The resignation letters on people's private domains are presumably at least believable.
22:00:09 <fizzie> Unless you assume those were hijacked too.
22:00:28 <b_jonas> I don't know what the staffer's private domains were
22:00:35 <b_jonas> though some of them seem to be away, let me check
22:00:39 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: someone was linking to one of them in a k-line message
22:00:55 <FireFly> My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I know at least Fuchs moved his out of /privat, updated it to include more info, and has vouched for it
22:01:26 <pikhq> i've also had them verified as such from ariadne (a former freenode staffer, tho she had resigned _prior_ to all this), and i trust her as a source
22:01:27 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: thanks, that's better
22:01:46 <FireFly> you can /who freenode/staff/* to see which staff-cloaked users share a channel with you
22:01:53 <b_jonas> as for a bridge, that might be a good idea
22:02:58 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes, I can see #freenode , it's suspiciously empty of staffers. I might wait a few more days to see what happens
22:03:11 <b_jonas> and its topic is scary too
22:03:13 <int-e> FireFly: wow... that... is short compared to the same thing on libera
22:03:41 <int-e> (I'm on #libera there and on #freenode here which should help to get a more or less complete list)
22:03:50 <FireFly> ye, that should be pretty complete
22:05:41 <b_jonas> that said, those kill messages are not quite inspiring me to trust those staffers to follow to their designated replacement
22:06:57 <b_jonas> so I say if we want to leave here, we go to Oftc. they have seniority, I know their network for almost a decade
22:07:20 <b_jonas> not some fancy newly set up passionate replacement that may or may not live up to its hype
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22:13:37 <int-e> What exactly is the connection between oftc and freenode? tomaw is involved in both...
22:17:14 <b_jonas> int-e: I think they split over some difference in the prehistory, before I ever joined IRC
22:17:32 <b_jonas> but that was in the long past, now they seemed to be just peacefully coexisting
22:17:53 <b_jonas> or maybe they still hate each other and I just don't care about the politics
22:19:29 <b_jonas> fizzie or ais, I'm b_jonas on oftc too, if you want the registered channels with the obvious names, ask me
22:20:06 <int-e> In any case it seems that most of the migration from Freenode is heading towards Libera. It does have the right people to live on, too, I think. The last thing I want atm is add *two* new irc servers to my client.
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22:20:35 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it's an IRC network with policies similar to Freenode, presumably until you get deep into the lore where they have some irreconcilable differences about whether the liturgy language that they no longer use is greek or latin
22:20:37 <int-e> (one for #esoteric, one for #haskell, and keep freenode for some random channels that probably won't care)
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22:20:56 <b_jonas> irc server hostname is irc.oftc.net , homepage is https://www.oftc.net/
22:21:25 <b_jonas> int-e: no, that's the loud hype right now, we won't know where the actual migration goes for months
22:22:04 <b_jonas> I will join there too for now because I don't care about being joined to many irc servers at least for a while, then we'll see what sticks
22:22:42 <b_jonas> but I'm not convinced we should let the loudest scaremongering people decide what the replacement is
22:23:47 <b_jonas> though on the other hand, I guess I should let fizzie decide
22:23:56 <b_jonas> at least for the case of #esoteric
22:25:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: if I private message HackEso on freenode, does it reply on libera?
22:25:59 <b_jonas> is that, like, deliberate?
22:26:18 <fizzie> No, I probably screwed something up.
22:26:29 <int-e> cool, spooky action at a distance
22:26:38 <b_jonas> I guess it's a way to authenticate the two to each other
22:26:46 <fizzie> They're two entirely separate instances, but I guess neglected something about multibot's weird Unix domain socket communication thing.
22:26:55 <fizzie> I probably need to change a parameter somewhere.
22:27:24 <b_jonas> two entirely separate instances? you *forked* HackEso? or do you mean their underlying hackenv disk is still the same?
22:27:36 <fizzie> Just two separate instances of multibot.
22:27:48 <int-e> ah, it'll reply in #esoteric of course
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22:28:03 <int-e> so we won't see it in ##esoteric
22:29:34 <b_jonas> well we sort of have a bridge
22:29:49 <int-e> so a garbage chute
22:29:59 <fizzie> Yeah, the Unix domain socket name of multibot is hardcoded to be /tmp/multibot.<nick>, and obviously they've got the same nick.
22:30:08 <fizzie> I think I just need to recompile with a patch.
22:30:19 <int-e> chroot to the rescue ;)
22:31:13 <b_jonas> or renick it to HackEvo or HackEto or whatever
22:31:30 <int-e> HackEsO, maybe it's case sensitive
22:32:27 * int-e ponders the look of "hACKeSO"
22:33:34 <b_jonas> no, we'll fork the channel, that's more confusing
22:33:49 <Guest75150> Is this official or is it what you think will happen
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22:34:11 <Guest75150> Well what ever happens ill move there too
22:34:21 <Guest75150> Just dont think we should grt into others drama
22:34:24 <b_jonas> Guest75150: well right now we have two instances of HackEsos, so it's sort of official
22:34:39 <fizzie> Yeah, that's honestly really just because I wanted to play around.
22:34:41 <b_jonas> or more like one HackEso connected to two networks
22:35:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: well ok, but you know we'll follow our bots and ops, right?
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22:35:45 <b_jonas> so HackEso and fungot sort of determine where the real channle is
22:35:45 <fizzie> I think they're distinct personalities now.
22:35:45 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, in response to the excellent speech by the president of the commission on his behalf. the importance of the euratom treaty is to be considered. regarding the structure and, especially, children for removing organs, is a great pity if the council, for i was the rapporteur and say that europe's agricultural objective should be.
22:36:14 <fizzie> And fair enough, but I wouldn't want to enforce anything.
22:36:30 <fizzie> I did start a thread (if two messages count as one) on the Wiki, FWIW: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future
22:36:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, you can't *enforce* anything
22:37:25 <b_jonas> but I think more IRC folks watch the IRC logs than the wiki
22:38:06 <fizzie> That's plausible. But I think the official official status is whatever [[Esolang:Community portal]] says. :)
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22:38:49 <b_jonas> I wonder what will happen to the logs
22:39:00 <b_jonas> also we need some sort of decycling protocol for the bridges
22:41:07 <fizzie> If we didn't already use colors in the logs, we could do a HomeStuck ~ATH reference and just merge the logs on the same page, with one network in RED and the other in BLUE.
22:42:11 <b_jonas> I'm not reading Homestuck so I don't get that reference, but merged logs might make sense
22:42:17 <b_jonas> or we just log either and there'll be a bridge
22:43:39 <fizzie> It's not a very good reference. We've got a page about it on the wiki, too: https://esolangs.org/wiki/~ATH
22:43:56 <fizzie> It just had a red/blue universe bifurcation thing going on, as that last example program shows.
22:44:46 <int-e> attention! hang up!
22:45:17 <esowiki> [[Super Mario 64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83092 * Icecream17 * (+3754) Create sm64
22:45:33 <fizzie> That'd be more like +++ATH0.
22:46:30 <esowiki> [[Super Mario 64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83093&oldid=83092 * Icecream17 * (+25) add languages category
22:46:34 <int-e> I remember a time when that caused people to disconnect from IRC
22:46:46 <fizzie> Hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayes_command_set#Hayes'_solution claims patens are the reason why some modems would hang up on that even when there's no pause after the +'s.
22:47:06 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, because of some stupid antivirus that decided that was an attack trying to hack your system and so disconnected you
22:47:17 <b_jonas> got freenode staff very angry when people started to abuse it
22:47:41 <b_jonas> wait, I think it was *routers*, not antivirus
22:47:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83094&oldid=83050 * Icecream17 * (+21) /* S */ +Super Mario 64, also (realphabetize, space < P)
22:47:49 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure +++ATH0 used to literally disconnect modems because of what it is.
22:47:51 <int-e> b_jonas: I though that was some DCC stuff? The +++ATH0 was poor modems not waiting for a delay after +++ and not distinguishing between incoming and outgoing data
22:47:53 <b_jonas> "smart" routers protecting you by breaking the TCP ting
22:48:02 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, that's the original meaning
22:48:07 <int-e> and by "poor" I mean "poor quality"
22:48:09 <b_jonas> but this happened much later, when nobody was using such modems anymore
22:49:25 <zzo38> The email address I have registered with Freenode is one which is no longer valid anyways, so if they sell it, it will be unusable. Even if I changed it to a valid one, the same would be true; I use a separate email address for each thing, so that if it receives spam, I disable it.
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22:49:40 <b_jonas> does firefox now ignore when a https page says that it has a CSS style sheet at a http address, because it knows better about security than the HTML that declares where its style sheet is?
22:51:02 <zzo38> For the modem commands, I would think that it would be better to have a separate stream for commands and data, although RS-232 doesn't have that, therefore Dual-RS-232 must be used instead.
22:51:38 <esowiki> [[Sm64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83095 * Icecream17 * (+28) create temporary redirect (if you need to name, you can change this)
22:52:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: Sounds that way. They have a page about "mixed content blocking", https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/mixed-content-blocking-firefox
22:52:18 <fizzie> Doesn't say since when they've been doing that.
22:52:29 <esowiki> [[Super Mario 64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83096&oldid=83093 * Icecream17 * (+29) add joke languages cat
22:52:55 <imode> b_jonas: re: "is this real", most if not all of the freenode staff straight up resigned, the letters are real, and the scare-mongering isn't really scare-mongering.
22:53:30 <esowiki> [[Super Mario 64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83097&oldid=83096 * Icecream17 * (+19) Add category 2021
22:53:53 <b_jonas> imode: it so is. saying "unregister your accounts and change their password, because someone is going to steal your private information" is scare-mongering, no matter how much they don't like whatever is happening to the network
22:54:12 <imode> nobody's saying that.
22:54:46 <imode> there is a single statement on kline.sh on how to remove, if you wish, your nickserv association.
22:55:11 <imode> there have been legal threats to the freenode staff if they don't comply with handing the reigns over to lee.
22:55:46 <zzo38> Also, I would expect the password to be hashed, meaning they cannot steal it unless you log in again after they change the software
22:55:58 <imode> they have assumed control as of today.
22:56:19 <int-e> zzo38: They'll see it when you identify with services
22:56:33 <int-e> zzo38: so /potentially/ they can log it right there and then
22:56:43 <b_jonas> imode: I'll quote that message: “If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.”
22:56:54 <int-e> which is how ultimately, this is a question of trust
22:56:56 <imode> b_jonas: putting it mildly, if you look at the statements put forth by the staff, along with chat logs, and look at the history, this is legitimate. I don't know why you think the opposite other than to be a contrarian.
22:57:10 <pikhq> it is a fact that the new controllers of freenode have possession of that data, and could _in principle_ abuse it
22:57:23 <pikhq> it is unclear if they will, but they are unambiguously able to
22:57:34 <int-e> b_jonas: yes, I'd agree that qualifies as fear-mongering. but it's also a personal opinion by *one* of the former Freenode staff.
22:57:54 <pikhq> it is maybe a bit inflammatory, but, if you don't have trust for the new controllers of freenode?
22:58:10 <imode> considering the purchase of the holding company tied to freenode happened in 2018 (2017? time means nothing these days) there were fears that PIA would do something shady.
22:58:26 <imode> they're trying to assert authority over the entire network via threatening to bankrupt the existing staff.
22:58:37 <imode> and bragging about taking over freenode on other networks.
22:58:54 <imode> I don't trust like that.
22:59:12 <imode> no matter _what_ way you spin it, this isn't a good thing.
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23:02:04 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, it is what I said; once you log in then they can steal it, if they have changed the software to steal this information.
23:02:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83098&oldid=83070 * B jonas * (+341) /* Freenode and the future */
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23:17:23 <oren> i mean... as long as you don't use the *same* password with nickserv as with anything else
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23:33:41 <pikhq> i know some people will
23:33:59 <pikhq> not that that's a good idea
23:34:34 <int-e> or the same password with every nickserv
23:47:19 -!- watchingfreenode has changed nick to ripfreenode.
23:47:57 <zzo38> I also don't know what they intend to do with Freenode once they take it over; but, it is potentially of some concern.
23:55:47 <kmc> i don't trust the new owners of freenode
23:55:54 <kmc> but i also don't trust facebook or google and i still use their platforms too
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23:56:17 <zzo38> Whether or not you will trust someone, depend, what you will trust them with; it can be different.
23:57:57 <pikhq> tbqh i suspect freenode isn't long for this world regardless
23:58:01 <zzo38> I sometimes use Google Search, as well as V8, but none of their other services. I don't use Facebook at all.
23:58:27 <pikhq> freenode's lost all the people that ran it
23:58:38 <pikhq> that's hard to come back from