00:16:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PixelatedStarfish * New user account
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01:05:59 <nakilon> zzo38 clipboard isn't necessary plain text, it can have rich text; it just needs even more rich text that would represent a portion of chat/comments with standard attributes like nickname, userpic, timestamp, message; the message may be a nested picture
01:31:56 <oerjan> the trouble is there are too many standards https://xkcd.com/927/
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01:41:03 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84828&oldid=84798 * Rphii * (+1686) /* Examples */ added "Hello, World!" program
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01:43:40 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84829&oldid=84828 * Rphii * (+146) /* [variable] */ clarified
01:59:28 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84830&oldid=84829 * Rphii * (+156) /* Hello, world! */ fixed a small mistake
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02:00:57 <zzo38> The different one are good for a different purposes, maybe, although sometimes some are just no good anyways, or they have various problems, advantages/disadvantages, etc
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03:31:37 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84831&oldid=84641 * Bangyen * (+0)
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04:39:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mecaneer23 * New user account
04:42:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84836&oldid=84769 * Mecaneer23 * (+221) /* Introductions */
04:45:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84837&oldid=84836 * Mecaneer23 * (+0) /* Introductions */
05:26:13 <esolangs> [[Bin-snake]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84838 * Mecaneer23 * (+702) Created page with "Bin-snake is a Python wrapper, in Binary. Bin-snake converts a Bin-snake file (.bs) to Python code, and then executes it to Python. ===Writing Bin-snake=== With an understand..."
05:27:05 <esolangs> [[Bin-snake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84839&oldid=84838 * Mecaneer23 * (+8) /* Running Bin-snake */
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05:29:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84843&oldid=84744 * Mecaneer23 * (+16) /* B */
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05:46:13 <zzo38> Do you like the Cistercian numbers? I think that there could be some improvements, such as the sign of 6 is no good and is better to make the sign of 6 to reverse the sign of 5, and also I can suggest to make place value of myriads, alternating upright (the low palce) and 90 degrees counterclockwise
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07:46:42 <shachaf> How strong is the connection between computing prefix sums and adding numbers with carry?
07:46:50 <shachaf> There seems to be a lot of similarity.
07:48:31 <shachaf> Specifically, a prefix sum takes n elements and produces n+1 elements, where the last output is like the carry.
07:48:51 <shachaf> Or you can say it takes n+1 and returns n+1, where the first input is added to every value (instead of having the first output be 0).
07:49:42 <shachaf> There seem to be connections between the fast parallel scan algorithms and the addition algorithms.
07:49:52 <shachaf> Though I don't really know all the fancy ways people make n-bit adders.
07:50:21 <int-e> not sure whether this extends beyond the fact that monoids are involved
07:51:15 <shachaf> What's the monoid in the adder case? 2-bit numbers?
07:51:54 <shachaf> It seems like there's a pretty strong connection between the kinds of algorithms you can do.
07:52:44 <shachaf> You have similar concerns with the total depth (where input carry->output carry, or computing the total output sum, is probably your longest path).
07:53:07 <shachaf> And you can do the thing where you split the thing into chunks and then connect them up to reduce the depth.
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08:02:26 <FireFly> there's a neat way of calculating & updating prefix sums with fenwick trees, but you might be familiar with them already
08:02:58 <int-e> Hmm. Well, the monoid I have in mind is a bit weird: it uses pairs (b, d) where b is a base, and n is a digit. And the operation is (b, d) <> (b', d') = (b*b', d*b' + d'). So this doesn't do addition; it represents base 2 numbers as (2, d[n-1]) <> (2, d[n-2]) <> ... <> (2, d[0]).
08:03:11 <shachaf> Oh, I was just thinking of binary numbers.
08:03:22 <shachaf> I'm sort of familiar but not in detail.
08:03:59 <shachaf> Is it different from the thing you get with a binary tree where you store summaries in the branches?
08:04:12 <shachaf> Or is it a way of storing the branch summaries compactly with implicit layout?
08:04:14 <int-e> So what you can do to do addition is to split each d into its bits and a carry. And then you can regroup and do case analysis on the incoming carries and derive all the cool carry propagation/carry prediction stuff.
08:05:24 <FireFly> shachaf: yeah, it's just that I think, usually with the binary tree implemented compactly the usual way for dense power-of-two binary trees
08:05:39 <FireFly> it gets you both logarithmic update and query, which is neat
08:06:02 <shachaf> There's a paper about Fenwick trees that I meant to read but haven't yet.
08:06:16 <shachaf> Aha, it's this one: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.12370.pdf
08:06:20 <int-e> shachaf: note that if you start out with a binary number, b is always a power of 2; it's mainly a bookkeeping thing that is important to make things associative
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08:06:56 <int-e> But as usualy I'm not sure which similarity you see. :P
08:07:07 * int-e tends to focus on differences.
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08:08:27 <shachaf> int-e: Aha, I see, that's an interesting perspective, now that I read what you said.
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08:10:46 <shachaf> Let me see if I can say explicitly why they seem so similar.
08:11:27 <shachaf> The naive algorithm for adding two numbers is a ripple-carry adder, where you just add the way long addition works, figuring out the next bit and carry at a time.
08:12:13 <shachaf> And the naive algorithm for a scan is similar -- you go from beginning to end, outputting the current sum and adding values as you see them.
08:12:30 <shachaf> And these are both optimal sequentially.
08:13:28 <shachaf> When you want to parallelize it, one thing you can do is break the thing into chunks, and compute the result for each chunk.
08:14:11 <shachaf> The result you get isn't quite right, though, but you can correct it with the output from the previous chunk, and correcting it takes less work than computing the whole thing from scratch.
08:15:50 <int-e> Ah. I think I actually got the right idea then. It's just that the ripple carry story is quite a bit more complicated than the prefix sum story in the details.
08:16:21 <shachaf> Maybe I should start by saying "increment" rather than "add".
08:16:31 <shachaf> Since that's what I was really thinking.
08:16:43 <shachaf> And there are similar things going on.
08:16:48 <int-e> (because the prefix sum stuff is just about regrouping addition in clever ways; it's already a nice monoid as is)
08:16:57 <int-e> or maybe semigroup, we don't need the unit
08:17:22 <shachaf> Hmm, interesting, I think of prefix sum as needing a unit, but the version with carry just takes the 0 value as an argument anyway.
08:17:25 <int-e> (it doesn't hurt either)
08:18:02 <int-e> (the unit is only strictly needed if you allow an empty prefix)
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08:18:40 <shachaf> Anyway, maybe the connection would be stronger if I'd just said increment to start with.
08:28:01 <shachaf> OK, here's a post that answers several of my questions: https://gist.github.com/pervognsen/c89b0726da133fed8791e68cd72864cf
08:38:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Py10 * New user account
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10:07:11 <nakilon> there is no standard here though
10:07:44 <nakilon> clipboard is basically either plain text, or rich text, or an image, or a path in a filesystem
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10:29:02 <nakilon> or for example, there are RSS and Atom to make posts look the same
10:31:09 <nakilon> would be nice to see random copypasta in web taken from twitter/fb/discourse/reddit/tumblr/etc. all formatted in the same way
10:33:02 <nakilon> instead of screenshots with random ugly fonts, getting compressed with each reupload (since most of the people don't know what is the URL and instead of linking they download and upload the media; not even saying that they often use phone to take a screenshot of text from the monitor)
10:34:34 <nakilon> in perspective if there is a wireless connection between the smartphone and the machine that you screenshot its display then if would be possible to even apply the format I imagine even when you are trying to make a photo of the screen
10:35:55 <nakilon> my English is bad, gotta sleep
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12:13:51 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84845&oldid=84844 * ResU * (+149) added truth machine
12:15:57 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84846&oldid=84845 * ResU * (+19) /* Commands */
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12:51:41 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84849&oldid=84848 * ResU * (+1) /* See also */
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13:13:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asriel77 * New user account
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14:19:27 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84850&oldid=84489 * Zero player rodent * (+653)
14:19:31 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84851&oldid=84776 * Zero player rodent * (+278)
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14:43:49 <Taneb> Astronomy : Astrophysics :: Gastronomy : Gastrophysics
14:49:47 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84853&oldid=84851 * Zero player rodent * (+8)
14:57:07 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84854 * VilgotanL * (+580) Created page with " is an [[Eek!]] derivative by the Amogus Esolang Crew, mostly by [[User:VilgotanL]] and [[User:Zero player rodent]]. The only difference between and Eek! is that E, e,..."
14:57:38 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84855&oldid=84854 * VilgotanL * (-13) fix table head cell
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15:05:20 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84856&oldid=84855 * VilgotanL * (+0) fix table because my brain didnt work
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16:31:17 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84857&oldid=84262 * S1(210) * (-134)
16:35:01 <fizzie> Taneb: Astronomy : Astrology :: Gastronomy : Gastrology?
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17:01:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84860&oldid=84837 * DjAlac * (+203) /* Introductions */
17:01:38 <esolangs> [[User:DjAlac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84861 * DjAlac * (+20) Created page with "Working on language."
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18:26:48 <nakilon> https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C&lang=ru-en
18:27:13 <nakilon> I though there is a word to gastrole in English
18:27:23 <nakilon> would be astrole if your tour is between stars
18:28:52 <nakilon> I hate so much that copying from address bar escapes russian letters -- I'm pretty sure they are working in URLs for years already; have to replace them manually when you want to make the URL shorter; would be awesome to have some chrome flag for that
18:31:10 <nakilon> this link is working for all of you in chat, right? https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=гастролировать&lang=ru-en
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18:45:38 <arseniiv> nakilon: works. At least Firefox allows you to copy URIs as is by adding a space at the end and then copying
18:46:08 <arseniiv> don’t know about Chrome, seems not that esoteric a browser :-|
18:48:02 <arseniiv> . o O ( now I see why browsers are that huge: they need to support SVG rendering )
18:48:32 <immibis> SVG is not huge, compared to HTML and CSS. HTML and CSS are not huge, compared to their interaction with JavaScript
18:49:21 <riv> SVG is so cool
18:49:40 <immibis> you can write a webpage in SVG
18:49:54 <immibis> a browser that only supported SVG webpages would probably be smaller than one which only supported HTML
18:50:09 <immibis> SVG tells you where to place each object. there is no layout algorithm
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19:07:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KakkoiiChris * New user account
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19:15:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84862&oldid=84860 * KakkoiiChris * (+166) /* Introductions */
19:16:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84863&oldid=84862 * KakkoiiChris * (+78) /* Introductions */
19:24:56 <zzo38> I made on my computer to never display non-ASCII characters in the address bar. I prefer to use only ASCII it avoids problems with homoglyphs, invisible characters, etc
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19:48:11 <myname> as a german, i wouldn't want to miss the umlauts
19:51:50 <zzo38> Then use the German character encoding, I suppose
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20:00:48 <riv> the square-1 puzzle is evil
20:01:50 <zzo38> What is a square-1 puzzle?
20:03:23 <Koen_> I spent the last 15 minutes trying to get the pun in the sentence "as a german, i wouldn't want to miss the umlauts"
20:03:39 <Koen_> now I read zzo38's sentence just above and realise there is no pun
20:04:40 <myname> not everything has to be a pun
20:05:13 <riv> zzo38, https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVcciDqsX6uwzdtrm08e35exne0v-GEc2lOw&usqp=CAU
20:05:20 <Koen_> I assume you don't live in a country that survived the second world war by making puns on the radio
20:05:40 <Koen_> as a ways to pass secret messages
20:06:06 <Koen_> riv: that's not a square
20:06:09 <Koen_> that's not even a cube!!
20:07:07 <int-e> Koen_: but it's a cube in solved configuration
20:07:35 <int-e> (Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-1_(puzzle))
20:10:12 <riv> https://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/square1d.htm
20:10:32 <riv> this is a graph for the shpes
20:10:39 <riv> but you also need to solve the colors
20:12:43 <arseniiv> riv: I have tried to make some simple procedural art using SVG as an output, that went nicely. Filters and <use> are a good hand though I used just blur filters for shadows. And grouping is indispensible too, so yeah, SVG is a very good format, though rendering a complex document efficiently still seems for me a giant programming task, especially due to filters. So I’m actually glad one can fall back to a browser and test this or that right in jupyt
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20:28:17 <riv> i made a sq1 simulator which produces svg graphics
20:28:50 <riv> https://i.postimg.cc/br7157wX/Screenshot-2021-06-21-21-28-33.png
20:43:52 <zzo38> Ghostscript does not include a SVG output, so if I want to use SVG output with Ghostscript, one way is to produce PDF, and then use a separate program converting PDF into SVG.
20:46:20 <riv> can we convert PS to SVG directly?
20:47:03 <zzo38> It would be possible, although Ghostscript does not currently include this driver. (There may be an unofficial one maybe)
20:47:23 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84864&oldid=70898 * KakkoiiChris * (+1292) /* Minim */
20:47:38 <zzo38> Also would be wanted to detect the approximations of circles it makes in order to convert them to SVG circles, maybe
20:49:15 <zzo38> Another thing might be wanted is if you want to put hyperlinks in the SVG file, then you might want some uses of the pdfmark command to work too
20:49:27 <riv> i didnt know postscript doesn't have circles
20:50:11 <zzo38> It has a command to draw circular arcs, although using this produces an approximation involving Bezier curves instead
20:53:22 <riv> https://spencermortensen.com/articles/bezier-circle/ i see, they are 0.02% off at worst
20:54:28 <zzo38> Yes, although coding them as circles in SVG file would be more efficient than coding the Bezier curves
20:54:42 <riv> I would leave them as bezier curves
20:54:53 <riv> what if someone had done a bezier curve that is close to a circle intentionall
20:55:05 <riv> and it got incorrectl turned into a true circle
20:55:47 <zzo38> Yes, that is a valid point too. (Although I meant it only for the approximations produced by the arc commands in PostScript, not if you made your own)
20:56:30 <zzo38> PostScript has a command to iterate a path and that requires that it uses Bezier curves rather than circular arcs, although modifying the PostScript interpreter could be done to check specifically if you use the commands for circular arcs
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23:44:01 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84867&oldid=84865 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Implementations */ Cat
23:45:37 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84868&oldid=84864 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* 99 Bottles */ CatstaC