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00:57:15 <zzo38> Another way to produce SVG from PostScript might be to import a file which redefines the drawing commands to inspect the graphics state and output the proper SVG commands to make the drawing.
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03:09:36 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84869&oldid=84728 * PolySaken * (+855) Update to latest version
03:11:49 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84870&oldid=84869 * PolySaken * (-106)
03:17:14 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84871&oldid=84870 * PolySaken * (+256)
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06:21:24 <nakilon> there was some talk about sudoku
06:21:31 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/c/CrackingTheCryptic/videos
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07:04:30 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4sLAQvEH-M&t=0s
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08:23:59 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84872&oldid=84871 * PolySaken * (+1086)
08:37:14 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84873&oldid=84872 * PolySaken * (+0)
08:44:28 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84874&oldid=84873 * PolySaken * (-18)
08:48:18 <esolangs> [[Category:Usable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84875 * PolySaken * (+0) Created blank page
08:50:05 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84876&oldid=84874 * PolySaken * (-51)
08:53:07 <esolangs> [[Stax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84877&oldid=83001 * Cameron * (+0) Document.html amended to document.html
09:10:54 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84878&oldid=84876 * PolySaken * (+463) add missing commands
09:34:02 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84879&oldid=84878 * PolySaken * (+118)
09:37:23 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84880&oldid=84879 * PolySaken * (+69) /* Execution */
09:38:58 <esolangs> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84881&oldid=81624 * Salpynx * (+4) Link to funge-98
09:40:59 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84882&oldid=84880 * PolySaken * (+105) /* Memory */
09:56:14 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84883&oldid=84710 * PolySaken * (+109) add Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss
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10:31:24 <esolangs> [[Timers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84884 * Rphii * (+6531) Created
10:32:21 <nakilon> I don't get it https://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Befunge-93
10:32:47 <nakilon> the first one looks like an infinite loop -- it dups twice, then prints and jumps, repeats
10:33:02 <nakilon> the second one prints every input twice
10:36:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84885&oldid=84843 * Rphii * (+13) /* T */ added Timers
10:37:34 <salpynx> first one seems to work as advertised: https://tio.run/##S0pNK81LT9W1NNYtqAQz//9XU7ayitdzUP7/34ALAA
10:41:06 <salpynx> The underscore is a horizontal if, and changes the direction if the input is 1
10:43:52 <salpynx> {1}#:: {reverse} :: . :: . :: . {repeat}
10:44:14 <nakilon> I thought it should ask again
10:46:03 <salpynx> It's a simple test program form to show how looping and a simple conditional work. Makes more sense for very low level languages where demonstrating anything is a challenge, and is a step up from Hello World
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11:12:03 <b_jonas> I was told that even though swedish "ö" and norwegian "ø" are basically the same letter with a different shape, the same is not at all true for swedish "ä" versus norwegian "æ". I think this is something I should have noticed, but every time I saw something that pointed to it, I just assumed it's because norwegian spells everything weird.
11:12:42 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84886&oldid=84884 * Rphii * (+161) /* Multiple Timers I */ fix mistake in comments
11:13:40 <b_jonas> This still means that the swedish alphabet and the norwegian/danish alphabet has letters in a different order, because swedish has "å" before "ö" but norwegian has "ø" before "å", which is still worrying
11:13:51 <b_jonas> but a bit less worrying than before
11:14:55 <b_jonas> because now I can hope that only "ö" or "ø" is in the wrong place
11:16:59 <b_jonas> of course it's still possible that a lot of letters are in the wrong place in all of those alphabets, but that's possible in a lot of alphabets
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11:42:07 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84887&oldid=84701 * Rphii * (+11)
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13:11:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DragonFighter603 * New user account
13:15:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84888&oldid=84863 * DragonFighter603 * (+238) first entry - hope i did everything right!!!
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13:18:10 <esolangs> [[User:DragonFighter603]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84889 * DragonFighter603 * (+237) hi, im here!
13:21:29 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84890 * DragonFighter603 * (+18) Created page with "Start of the page!"
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13:24:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84891&oldid=84885 * DragonFighter603 * (+30) added GridJSON
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14:46:17 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84892&oldid=84890 * DragonFighter603 * (+125)
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15:15:10 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84893&oldid=84886 * Rphii * (+0) /* Calculator */ fix mistake in code
15:46:32 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84894&oldid=84892 * DragonFighter603 * (+3457)
15:47:40 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84895&oldid=84894 * DragonFighter603 * (+46)
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18:15:44 <nakilon> are there [Usable for programming] languages simplier than Brainfuck?
18:18:12 <b_jonas> nakilon: that might depend on what you count as simpler, but probably so. bitfuck (brainfuck with just 0 or 1 values in each cell) or Bitfuck without - is arguably simpler.
18:18:43 <b_jonas> some might consider SK combinator calculus simpler
18:18:59 <int-e> or lambda calculus
18:20:00 <int-e> I don't know anybody who can program combinatory logic directly... personally I can only do it through abstraction elimination.
18:20:00 <b_jonas> then there's some weird ones that ais523 invented, most notably Last ReSort and Three Star Programmer
18:20:17 <b_jonas> int-e: or an interpreter, I assume
18:20:33 <b_jonas> I mean an interpreter for a higher level language implemented in combinatory logic
18:20:45 <int-e> The thing is, lambda calculus *is* fairly programmable, mainly because you get a usable form of abstraction.
18:21:16 <int-e> where let x = y in z translates to (\x -> z) y
18:22:15 <nakilon> I'm just looking for a language to implement fully in rasel, but brainfuck needs at least two stacks -- data and code
18:22:33 <nakilon> idk how fizzie made his one
18:23:35 <nakilon> I could store one stack on even indices and another one on odd though, lol
18:24:48 <fizzie> I just use the playfield, both for the code and data. And the (Befunge) stack just has two things: the execution pointer and the data pointer.
18:25:11 <int-e> . o O ( you have rational numbers, maybe translate from generalized Collatz functions? )
18:26:04 <b_jonas> nakilon: Rasel has arbitrary precision integers, and now also random access to its stack. so I suggest implementing The Waterfall Model, either as a translator by encoding the matrix into the program text, or by having the matrix on the stack
18:26:45 <b_jonas> nakilon: implementing a translator from Blindfolded arithmetic should be easier, or just a direct translator from a multi-stack machine with fixed sized alphabet for the stacks
18:27:26 <b_jonas> you have infinite code space and nopfunge's directional commands, so implementing arbitrary control flow shouldn't be hard, you can just do non-blindfolded arithmetic
18:29:21 <int-e> The main point is... since random access into the stack is so awkward, exploiting bignums to get unbounded storage seems like the easier route to go. And then all you need is a formalism that's easy to implement with bignums. Minsky machines are another obvious candidate.
18:30:12 <nakilon> what was the command to print the link to the wiki
18:31:15 <nakilon> I imagine it would be nice if you could put some markers inside your messages so bot would append the links because I have to copypaste your suggested languages names into google ..D
18:31:58 <nakilon> like: ... so I suggest implementing [wiki The Waterfall Model], either as a ...
18:32:54 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, you can just translate from a multi-stack machine with three stacks of bits with arbitrary finite control
18:33:30 <b_jonas> you might still have to use Rasel's pokeswap instruction to access a fixed sized Rasel stack, but that's not not really random access
18:34:02 <int-e> b_jonas: there's only one stack though? or are you using bitnums... in which case, yes, you can do that
18:44:11 <b_jonas> int-e: three bignums in three elements of the Rasel stack simulate three stacks of bits each
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18:44:18 <b_jonas> you encode the stack of bits as a single binary number
18:44:27 <b_jonas> Rasel can work with any base
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18:45:34 <b_jonas> to push 0, you multiply the number by 2; to push 1, you multiply the number by 2 and add 1; to pop, you take modulo 1, dup the reminder, use one copy to subtract it from the bignum before dividing by 2, then the other copy for a conditional jump
18:45:47 <b_jonas> and those are the only operations you need, apart from perhaps some IO
18:46:43 <b_jonas> you connect the program states with control flow by adding befunge style arrow paths
18:47:43 <b_jonas> the Rasel stack will have to temporarily grow to a bit larger than 3 for that bignum arithmetic, but you restore it to just the three bignums between each step
18:48:12 <b_jonas> you have to store them on the stack because Rasel doesn't offer much else for storage
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18:48:30 <b_jonas> you do have some choice between this and using random access on a larger stack
18:50:00 <b_jonas> but a longer stack doesn't really help for translating a multi-stack machine
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18:59:38 <arseniiv> so hot here :( I’d wish that was exploited somehow
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19:00:16 <arseniiv> can’t make myself write synth code and hear what sound it makes
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19:10:15 <esolangs> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84896&oldid=79483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) It was based on JS
19:25:55 <lambdabot> (Monad m, ?f::(m (m a) -> m a) -> t1 -> t2, ?g::t1) => t2
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20:49:20 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84897&oldid=84882 * PolySaken * (+9)
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21:24:40 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84898&oldid=84897 * PolySaken * (+1008) add errors
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22:06:25 <nakilon> made a simple tests implementation so I don't need to start another bot instance to just test if reply works
22:08:20 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84899&oldid=84898 * PolySaken * (+444) update examples
22:09:31 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84900&oldid=84899 * PolySaken * (+59) /* Examples */
22:09:56 <nakilon> so b_jonas mentioned [wiki bitfuck] then there is probably a [wiki user:ais523] page then [wiki Last ReSort], [wiki Three Star Programmer], [wiki FRACTRAN] and maybe [wiki The Waterfall Model] and also [wiki Blindfolded]
22:10:01 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitfuck https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last ReSort https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran https://esolangs.org/wiki/The Waterfall Model https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded arithmetic
22:12:15 <nakilon> it should be able to search [wiki random stuff] in text too
22:12:36 <nakilon> it should be able to search [wiki something] in text too
22:13:06 <nakilon> ah, nope, need another wiki api endpoint, I'll add it
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22:15:23 <fungot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
22:15:51 <salpynx> is another good target for TC proofs, but not very usable. Comparable to the Waterfall model though
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22:16:50 <fungot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/something
22:17:18 <salpynx> [wiki BCT] is comparable to [wiki The_Waterfall_Model] for [wiki TC] proofs
22:17:21 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
22:19:47 <salpynx> I see, it checks for the existence of the page before providing a link (why TC didn't work), and didn't recognise underscores as spaces for TWM
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22:23:20 <fizzie> I'm confused by the syntax, because usually when people link to articles on-channel, they use [[Internal Links]], not [external-links-except-not-even-a-URL].
22:23:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but in the end I still just recommend a three-stack machine with two symbol alphabet (or possibly a three-counter Minskey machine if you are into that) for the stacks and arbitrary control flow, assuming you want to translate to Rasel rather than have a universal interpreter in Rasel, and those are classical models of computation that we don't have specific pages about on the esowiki,
22:23:50 <b_jonas> though they're mentioned often at reduction proofs about particular esolangs
22:25:42 <b_jonas> well we do have a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine page
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22:27:39 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you want just a translation to Rasel, or a universal interpreter in Rasel with a fixed program that gets the interpreted program as input?
22:28:13 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84901&oldid=84719 * PolySaken * (+124)
22:31:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84902&oldid=79446 * PolySaken * (+37) /* Paradigm */
22:32:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84903&oldid=84902 * PolySaken * (+29) /* Paradigm */
22:33:49 <esolangs> [[Category:Prototype-based paradigm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84904 * PolySaken * (+179) Created page with "Languages that use a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Class-based_vs_prototype-based Prototype-Based] approach to OOP rather than a class-based appro..."
22:34:49 <nakilon> mediawiki escaping is weird
22:35:04 <nakilon> it escapes ' ' but not '?'
22:35:39 <nakilon> oh no, it escapes '?', anyway
22:38:10 <nakilon> fizzie that would need to blacklist esolangs bot explicitely to ignore the changelogs and actually people can use [[...]]] syntax for other purposes in messages, like to show a nested array
22:40:18 <nakilon> (or 1 dimensional array in Mathematica)
22:41:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84905&oldid=84891 * PolySaken * (+36) /* C */ add Clart
22:41:44 <b_jonas> you can always use <nowiki>...</nowiki> when you want to have a lot of literal brackets
22:43:12 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84906&oldid=84900 * PolySaken * (-26)
22:43:24 <nakilon> hoping that people won't chat about triple nested arrays
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22:45:28 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84907&oldid=84906 * PolySaken * (+51)
22:46:32 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84908&oldid=84907 * PolySaken * (+30)
22:49:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: what do you mean? I just mentioned three-star programmer earlier. what would be a better triple nested array than that?
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22:49:52 <b_jonas> but note that triple-nested arrays don't actually confuse mediawiki markup, because they don't have "[[" anywhere
22:51:31 <b_jonas> that's why C and C++ could agree to standardize "[[" for new style attributes, even though that's sort of silly in the https://xkcd.com/927/ sort of way, because there were already two or three vendor-specific attribute syntax that are general enough that they could just be supported by other compilers and standardized
22:52:23 <b_jonas> it can technically clash with C++ lambda syntax, but only in weird code that probably nobody ever wrote in the real world before attribute syntax was invented
22:52:41 <nakilon> heh, there is wiki article "???" but it doesn't show up in search results
22:52:56 <nakilon> if you search by "???" on search page
22:53:00 <b_jonas> and it might clash with objective C syntax I think
22:53:59 <nakilon> b_jonas I don't talk about mediawiki markup, I'm saying about IRC bot automatic linking
22:54:01 <b_jonas> but, you know, C++ syntax has or had like twenty different syntax ambiguities that actually sometimes come up in real programs, and this isn't one
22:54:15 <b_jonas> nakilon: IRC bot automatic linking? I don't particularly like that
22:54:55 <b_jonas> if it's looking inside messages that is, not just an invocation at the start like HackEso commands
22:55:06 <nakilon> why would I want to go to esolang wiki site and then copypaste titles from chat to search field if I could just click it here
22:55:08 <b_jonas> wait, velik actually does that?
22:55:28 <b_jonas> one star programmer, two star programmer [wiki three star programmer], four star programmer
22:55:29 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer
22:55:35 <b_jonas> oh there's no way we can't bot loop that
22:55:36 <nakilon> 01:09:56 <nakilon> so b_jonas mentioned [wiki bitfuck] then there is probably a [wiki user:ais523] page then [wiki Last ReSort], [wiki Three Star Programmer], [wiki FRACTRAN] and maybe [wiki The Waterfall Model] and also [wiki Blindfolded]
22:55:39 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitfuck https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last ReSort https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran plus plus https://esolangs.org/wiki/The Waterfall Model https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded Arithmetic
22:56:08 <nakilon> do bots react on messages starting with https://?
22:56:47 <b_jonas> maybe this is something that is only bad if more than one bot does it, so it's irresponsible but not immediately bad?
22:57:01 <b_jonas> I mean [wiki fungot] reacts obviously
22:57:01 <fungot> b_jonas: ok so not quite " rendering"
22:57:02 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungot
22:57:20 <b_jonas> not to that, no, because he doesn't like to be called Fungot
22:57:56 <fungot> nakilon: maybe their dns system just became " aware" of them rather than " yo estoy bueno. but
22:58:18 <b_jonas> yes, fungot's chatter is hard to bot loop
23:00:07 <b_jonas> fungot: because no bot before velik was listening to lines that start with "mr. president,", that's why
23:00:07 <fungot> b_jonas: dunno, it seems different :) i.e. bending a verb when an existing verb works perfectly well.
23:03:18 <b_jonas> perlbot learn function https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three can has [wiki Three Star Programmer]
23:03:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored function https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three as [wiki Three Star Programmer]
23:03:26 <b_jonas> [wiki three star programmer]
23:03:35 -!- delta23 has joined.
23:03:42 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer
23:03:56 <b_jonas> you need to invoke perlbot by name on this channel
23:04:22 <b_jonas> perlbot forget https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three
23:04:23 <perlbot> b_jonas: Forgot https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three
23:05:27 <b_jonas> and I can't just put square brackets into a wiki article title, mediawiki explicitly bans them
23:05:39 <b_jonas> (and even if you could, they'd be escaped in the URL)
23:05:57 <b_jonas> well I'll have to remember this when the second such bot comes up
23:06:28 <salpynx> `! befunge98 r #:,_@#:"[wiki Funge-98]"
23:06:30 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funge-98
23:06:35 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funge-98
23:08:29 <b_jonas> or third, if fungоt counts
23:08:43 <b_jonas> I mean technically there was the bridge too
23:09:11 <b_jonas> but I might not have been allowed to botloop that
23:10:13 <nakilon> 02:03:36 <velik> thread error -- I guess this was esolang wiki ddos prevention because there were two search requests in parallel, but I'm not sure
23:11:45 <nakilon> if I scroll the server stdout logs up the screen with hang the process and it will disconnect, lol, while file logs are formatted in base64 and I didn't make reader yet
23:13:25 <b_jonas> how about [wiki wiki:Three star programmer]
23:16:13 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:37 -!- velik has joined.
23:19:07 <nakilon> you mean [wiki:Three...] ?
23:19:34 <nakilon> finally I've found SO the break their code formatter over the years https://stackoverflow.com/a/547133/322020
23:23:07 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:38:47 <b_jonas> nakilon: one wiki to invoke velik, one wiki as an interwiki prefix that the esowiki would resolve
23:38:56 <b_jonas> except it doesn't do that when you *search*
23:39:02 <b_jonas> which is why I guess this failed
23:39:54 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:40:12 -!- velik has joined.
23:43:48 <nakilon> what about [befunge] and then in the end of the message you say /wiki
23:44:49 <nakilon> btw I fixed escapings: search with spaces [wiki bitwise cyclic tag], users [wiki user:nakilon], ignore dups [wiki user:nakilon], in text [wiki nakilon], weird chars [wiki created by Stack Exchange users]
23:44:53 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise%20Cyclic%20Tag https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nakilon https://esolangs.org/wiki/Velik https://esolangs.org/wiki/%3F%3F%3F
23:45:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84909&oldid=84905 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Non-alphabetic */ Please stop putting Alphabetic languages in the Non Alphabetic section
23:46:57 <salpynx> `! befunge98 [wiki Funge-98..]#
23:46:58 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funge-98
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