01:11:10 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85387 * AmNow * (+2429) content
01:11:52 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85388&oldid=85387 * AmNow * (+3) no ambiguity
01:13:55 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85389&oldid=85383 * AmNow * (+13) added lang
01:14:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85390&oldid=85381 * AmNow * (+13) added lang
01:15:06 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85391&oldid=85388 * AmNow * (-1) /* Factorial */ fixed
01:21:08 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85392&oldid=85389 * AmNow * (+24)
01:32:13 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85393&oldid=85392 * AmNow * (+0)
02:00:43 <pikhq> having done math and humanities, it feels more akin to the humanities than to science
02:02:15 <pikhq> math (obviously) tends to be very rigorous in how it does things, _but_ in its practice it doesn't tend to resemble science at all. math very often does things for its own sake, and sometimes then discovers applications for that, and the way of finding truth in math is by doing argument and exploring the ideas...
02:03:22 <pikhq> which is all well and good; i have no objections, and consider math's typical approaches quite valid and rigorous ways of doing things
02:03:58 <pikhq> _but_, science is about methodological empiricism
02:05:24 <pikhq> within science, that which is true or false is discerned by observation of the outside world, and devising tests to better be able to observe the outside world -- those ideas which are shown to be consistent with what you see are (assumed) correct, and those ideas which are not are known to be wrong
03:14:54 <Corbin> Yeah. The main difference between formality in maths and formality in writing is that maths is "formally formal" these days; the way in which maths cares about formality can be used to derive and extrapolate the entirety of the rest of maths.
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03:25:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Easyaspi314 * New user account
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03:41:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85394&oldid=85279 * Easyaspi314 * (+190) /* Introductions */ easyaspi314
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04:24:15 <nakilon> math is an observational notation for physics
04:26:03 <nakilon> making notes sometimes help to discover laws of nature that we didn't yet use
04:30:22 <nakilon> teology researches specific fields of psychology that is based on evolution and biology
04:31:17 <nakilon> that is based on chemistry that is based on physics again
04:50:24 <zzo38> OK, but that does not make either math or theology to be science (although it describes their relation to science, at least according to one opinion)
04:58:09 <zzo38> Those are valid points, though. I am guessing that "teology" is supposed to be "theology"
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05:02:15 <zzo38> Another thing is xkcd 435, although it doesn't mention theology.
05:03:52 <zzo38> Math is not only an observational notation for physics, I think. But, that is one way that mathematics can be used. I am platonist though; the mathematics itself is still what it is even independently of the study and of the applications, although you can still have those things too
05:13:01 <nakilon> yeah I always confuse t and th because in russian it's always just t
05:13:19 <nakilon> we always don't join letters to build sounds
05:14:14 <nakilon> or was it th because of being based on ancient language? idk
05:15:34 <nakilon> what does it mean you are platonist?
05:15:59 <nakilon> google takes the "Platonism is the view that there exist such things as abstract objects — where an abstract object is an object that does not exist in space or time and which is therefore entirely non-physical and non-mental. Platonism in this sense is a contemporary view" out of the whole huge wikipedia article
05:16:18 <Corbin> It means that some mathematical objects ("abstracta") aren't physical objects in reality.
05:18:16 <nakilon> would you be able to research math without having physics? like would you some day invent some modern fresh discovered laws if you was living all your life with closed eyes drifting in vacuum?
05:18:51 <^[> Corbin: What's the alternative? I'd be hard-pressed to find a real number line out in the wild.
05:18:56 <Corbin> Yes. Many parts of number theory are extremely unphysical.
05:20:19 <Corbin> ^[: Some folks bring with them a metaphysics or ontology which asserts that all described things either exist or don't exist. It can be a journey just to go beyond that.
05:23:15 <^[> I think this is the part where I ask for a definition of "to exist", but I'm not falling for that one again!
05:25:35 <Corbin> Tao has a wonderful post about this: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/the-no-self-defeating-object-argument/
05:27:42 <nakilon> but then how is mathematically moving abstract things around different from "creating falsifiable theories"?
05:27:56 <nakilon> btw math is full of theories too that only later either get proved or disproved
05:28:37 <nakilon> literally half of those lists of "unsolved problems"
05:28:45 <spruit11> platonism draws a lot from the thought that there are 'essences' out there, idealized notions which underpin real objects. it's very old but people used to think in those terms
05:29:46 <spruit11> these days, one favored take is that math mostly deals with 'consistency', although you run into Godel
05:34:39 <Corbin> nakilon: Mathematical English is very specific here. A "theorem" is a proof statement. A "theory" is a field of research into some sort of objects.
05:35:59 <spruit11> often mathematicians will still say they are 'platonists' which means they think reality is mathematical at heart
05:38:00 <Corbin> My personal Platonism is based on observations like the fact that the empty set isn't at any one particular location in spacetime, so it's not located in physical reality. Indeed it's only located within set theories.
05:43:21 <nakilon> I'm not saying about "set theory" or "propability theory" etc., I mean when they say "there is no solution to this equation, I have no proof but we'll jerk on it for the next 500 years"
05:45:03 <nakilon> similar to how we didn't know or didn't believe Einstein but still were able to fly at least above the clouds
05:45:26 <nakilon> many people still don't believe him
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05:47:43 <nakilon> probably there is a term for people who don't bother learning and prefer to build the imaginary world around based on likes and dislikes and would respond aggressively if you ask them to read a page on wikipedia and stuff
05:49:50 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85395&oldid=31933 * Bangyen * (+1291)
05:58:10 <Corbin> It's actually worse than that. Modern cryptography relies on the idea of one-way functions. We don't know whether one-way functions exist.
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06:22:04 <chronon> Surely one way functions exist. A hash function has no inverse for example.
06:24:16 <Corbin> We don't even know about P vs. NP. I personally assume that we're in a world where NP-complete problems can take exponential time (99% confidence), but I could be completely wrong.
06:25:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:AmNow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85396 * Bangyen * (+285) Created page with "=== [[=,-&~]] Question === I'm looking to create an interpreter for [[=,-&~]], but I had a couple questions that I posted on the talk page. Whenever you're free, clarification..."
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06:31:07 <chronon> Hash functions cannot be inverted because there is information loss in the forward process.
06:33:05 <chronon> I assume the NSA/GCHQ etc have massive databases of precomputed hashes so that they can reverse them by lookup, and same for large nearly primes, etc.
06:36:22 <Corbin> Or fix the input size, as is common in many practical attacks. Indeed, many hashes are broken by use cases like passwords, where the input is shorter than the internal state of the hash. I think sponge constructions can help with this a bit.
06:37:10 <chronon> I don't think *my* passswords have less entropy than the hashes. haha
06:37:21 <shachaf> My passwords certainly do.
06:38:02 <shachaf> People talking about inverting a hash function don't mean finding the specific original input, just any input that hashes to a particular value.
06:38:51 <chronon> I generate my passwords using hash functions, so I think by definition I'm ok. It's only the site that won't allow long keys that cause a sel-inflicted wound.
06:38:55 <Corbin> e.g. Bitcoin would be completely broken by this, even if SHA-256 isn't fully invertible.
06:39:57 <chronon> Yes, if you only need to find a hash collision it is easier than finding the original input.
06:40:36 <chronon> Hmm, there is a #crypto channel I think. ha!
06:50:23 <riv> yes we covered this exact question a couple days ago
06:58:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:CodyNinja1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85397 * CodyNinja1 * (+1) h
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07:48:17 <nakilon> so it's like 3 months passed since I made my personal hash-based storage and no one has since then broke it -- what was the point to make a few pages of flame?
07:48:36 <riv> hash-based storage is a really nice idea
07:50:34 <nakilon> oh, 1 month, I've lost a feel of time
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08:39:32 <chronon> What was the hash-based storage thing?
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09:15:55 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85398 * Dominicentek * (+2412) Created page with "A Slow Language is a 2D [[Befunge]]-like esoteric programming language made for a [https://www.youtube.com/user/luigiman2700 Truttle1] Esolang Jam. You control a turtle on an..."
09:17:07 <riv> maybe its different by in my case
09:17:26 <riv> you have a store/ directory where files are stored, the filename is the hash of the data in it
09:17:37 <riv> then you have a directory with symlinks into the store
09:17:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85399&oldid=85390 * Dominicentek * (+22) /* A */
09:17:43 <riv> so files can have normal paths and names
09:17:52 <riv> but everything is deduplicated automatically
09:19:27 <chronon> Ah, I see. I was thinking of doing exactly that for a backup solution. Never got round to setting it up though.
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09:25:01 <riv> i suppose deduplication could be implemented at the filesystem level
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10:04:55 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85400&oldid=85209 * Dominicentek * (+22)
10:13:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:=,-&~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85401&oldid=85374 * AmNow * (+149)
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10:32:12 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85402&oldid=85269 * Provitia * (-385) /* Package reference */
10:35:10 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85403&oldid=85402 * Provitia * (-179) /* Truth machine */
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10:50:53 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85404&oldid=85253 * AmNow * (+18) clarification
10:51:48 <esolangs> [[=,-&~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85405&oldid=85297 * AmNow * (+31) Clarification
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11:14:56 * oerjan manglol a magyar nyelvet egy kicsit b_jonasnak
11:15:13 <HackEso> Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms.
11:15:21 <oerjan> now with more hungarian
11:20:03 <oerjan> i think i got the words right but not sure of the order
11:20:35 * oerjan vaguely remembers something about topic/focus order
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11:24:17 * oerjan megmanglol b_jonasnak egy kicsit a magyar nyelvet
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12:14:23 <esolangs> [[Bedroom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85409 * AmNow * (+1103) content
12:14:52 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85410&oldid=85393 * AmNow * (+13) added lang
12:15:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85411&oldid=85399 * AmNow * (+14) added lang
12:19:26 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85412&oldid=85410 * AmNow * (+25)
12:42:43 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85413&oldid=85398 * Dominicentek * (+18)
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13:44:31 <oerjan> forgot the object agreement.
13:46:10 <oerjan> on the plus side, it now looks like an obscure swedish health product
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15:15:37 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85415&oldid=85414 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Logic Gates */
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16:54:50 <myname> you are doing it right now
16:56:30 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85417&oldid=85403 * Provitia * (+176) /* Package reference */
16:58:36 <fizzie> Yes; one that doesn't do much, just the wiki recent changes and logging.
16:59:11 <zzo38> Is there a such thing as LLVM with macros?
16:59:43 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85418&oldid=85417 * Provitia * (+31) /* Package reference */
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17:08:27 <^[> Would you consider any language with an LLVM frontend as being macros for the IR?
17:09:19 <nakilon> is it a good web design if 18 pieces of text on your page are written in 16 different styles?
17:10:16 <nakilon> 3 out of 3 voters voted that I'm wrong saying that it is bad
17:10:43 <^[> If it's good enough for Time Cube, it should be good enough for you.
17:10:59 <nakilon> subj: https://i.imgur.com/71PjkfA.png
17:17:18 <^[> What's the problem with that?
17:28:54 <nakilon> that 18 pieces of text have 16 different styles?
17:29:05 <nakilon> seems nothing bad, same as with these
17:29:26 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/c45hhKi.png
17:29:31 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/bLDkwxh.png
17:32:38 <^[> It might be a question of whether the styles are being put to good use.
17:35:16 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85419&oldid=85416 * PixelatedStarfish * (+37) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
17:35:32 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85420&oldid=85419 * PixelatedStarfish * (-30) /* External resources */
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17:35:44 <zzo38> nakilon: I think that it is probably bad (although I cannot be sure that there are not circumstances where such a thing is helpful).
17:36:15 <zzo38> I think usually is best to avoid the styles entirely
17:37:47 <zzo38> ^[: No I don't consider any language with an LLVM frontend as being macros for the IR; I mean to be more closely with LLVM directly, but with macros (which can be used for target-dependent stuff as well as for whatever other purposes you can use macros for)
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18:14:52 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85424&oldid=85423 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed cat program
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20:10:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85429&oldid=85428 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Grammar */
20:10:55 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85430&oldid=85429 * PixelatedStarfish * (-137) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
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20:11:57 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85431&oldid=85430 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* External resources */
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21:40:29 <fizzie> This is IRC, not Discord.
21:43:08 <fizzie> Sounds likely. As far as I know, we've never had any Discord bridges.
21:44:13 <NotApplicable> I know on the Esolangs Discord they have a relay to IRC of *some* sort
21:44:42 <NotApplicable> and this was the channel that it said to go to via the Community Portal
21:47:23 <fizzie> We're not affiliated (and probably don't really even have any overlap?) with either of the two discords, and that was the case for freenode #esoteric (which this channel is a continuation of) as well, so if they have an IRC relay, it's to somewhere else.
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22:24:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: makes sense, though it's not such a crazy idea to think that we might have a Discord overlay
22:24:53 <b_jonas> it's just that if we tried that, we'd have to set a new one up every two years as people migrate to a different app
22:25:21 <b_jonas> like, we'd have to set up a facebook bridge, an instagram bridge, a tiktok bridge, whatever the latest trend is
22:26:10 <fizzie[m]> At least with this Matrix thing, there's a network-wide bridge in place.
22:26:14 <NotApplicable> 2 years doesnt seem to be all that bad, especially with such a large community like this
22:28:28 <b_jonas> NotApplicable: yeah, but who is there in this community who follows the latest trendy apps and sets up bridges for that? I'm not saying that we're getting old, because fresh young people arrive all the time, but still
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23:56:10 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85439&oldid=85395 * Bangyen * (-2)
23:56:53 <esolangs> [[Circlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85440&oldid=85344 * Bangyen * (-2)