00:01:12 <oerjan> hm xkcd updated earlier than usual lately
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00:52:50 <HackEso> hicken and \ remaining 1/4 cup of chopped celery and cornstarch. Stir in \ and remaining honey. Repeat with chopped fresh lettuce; \ cheese mixture over baking sheet. Season together and stir meat into egg salt. \ Add the shapes of flour with the corner and sugar in a large \ pan. Serve with peanut oil and almonds. Pour the cake on a bowl, stirring \ occasionally and remove from heat; cook over moderate heat, stirring constantly, \ until the meat is
00:53:52 <b_jonas> serve first, then cook again? interesting, recycling food to serve it twice
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01:17:07 <BusyBeaver42> Hi, long time no chat, I'm one of the guys working on the Magic the Gathering most damage without going infinite deck, we are currently implementing the waterfall model (https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model)
01:17:39 <BusyBeaver42> Today we found an infinite that ruins a lot of progress
01:18:03 <nakilon> I would take out the edits one by one until the issue is gone
01:18:27 <nakilon> then I put it back and take out from the other side
01:18:28 <BusyBeaver42> It would be fixed however if the 'flooding' variant of the waterclocks were Turing Complete
01:19:56 <BusyBeaver42> where flooding clocks instead of adding their row once when they are triggered, add it X times where X is the number of times the clock was incremented
01:20:01 <oerjan> nakilon: that's not bisection if you do it "one by one"
01:20:23 <nakilon> imagine I said bisect in the first message )
01:20:29 <nakilon> just doing it from one side, then from another
01:21:29 <int-e> . o O ( But n+1 = n + 1 is splitting n+1 into two parts. )
01:22:41 <BusyBeaver42> This cause the clocks to explode in value and behave apparently erratically.
01:23:51 <b_jonas> BusyBeaver42: did you return because of https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5661 Striking new Beeping Busy Beaver champion, or is this an unrelated renewal of interest?
01:23:51 <esolangs> [[DDR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87339&oldid=65332 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+41) Fixed order of arrows
01:23:55 <esolangs> [[DDR/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87340&oldid=63978 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+60)
01:24:47 <esolangs> [[DDR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87341&oldid=87339 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+0)
01:25:00 <BusyBeaver42> I returned because its now very relevent whether or not the flooding version is TC
01:25:59 <BusyBeaver42> we missed a way to set dralnu's crusades up to allow us to halt an infinite computation at an arbitrary point
01:26:06 <oerjan> ais523 needs some pinging for this.
01:26:40 <b_jonas> yeah, he'll probably appear within a day
01:26:50 <b_jonas> though I think he already thought about that
01:27:19 <BusyBeaver42> so we'd need to either only do one BB computation, or cut dralnu's crusade
01:27:51 <BusyBeaver42> cutting the crudase makes us the 'flooding' version and we dont know if it is TC
01:29:36 <b_jonas> I admit don't really understand how the waterfall model comes into this
01:33:01 <BusyBeaver42> we set up Xathrid Necromancers according to the waterfall model matrix, Coat of arms keeps the tokens the right size while 2x arcbond keep triggering each other until the computation halts
01:34:07 <BusyBeaver42> Dralnu's crusade lets each clock have a triggering creature type that activates the necromancers
01:34:42 <BusyBeaver42> so that they dont trigger on each creature dying, just the one
01:34:47 <b_jonas> yes, but I can't recall what made that never go infinite. was it a trick with M:tG's infinity rule that makes some infinite loops a draw before you start them?
01:35:40 <b_jonas> yes, but that would normally still let you deal an unbounded amount of damage depending on the play you choose
01:36:09 <BusyBeaver42> which is why the deck is set up that we can't break out of a computation
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01:36:35 <BusyBeaver42> so if the computation never halts, we can't damage them
01:36:43 <b_jonas> yes, but before you set up the loop
01:37:09 <b_jonas> can't you set up a loop that will eventually deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage, more than any natural number that I choose?
01:37:49 <BusyBeaver42> nope, as computation is bounded by the busy beaver function
01:38:04 <b_jonas> I think we had this discussion and I'll just have to go back in the channel logs to find it
01:38:34 <b_jonas> oh, is the argument to the busy beaver (of some variant) the number of basic cards you have in the deck or something like that?
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01:39:04 <b_jonas> like you have to sacrifice a Plains every time you add a state to your machine, and you can't get any other than by drawing them from your deck?
01:39:05 <BusyBeaver42> yeah the size of the computation is limited by other resources
01:39:50 <b_jonas> or an Island. it's always an Island. nobody would mind sacrificing Plains.
01:40:23 <b_jonas> (Arcane Spyglass is a card I love, though it's not really useful for this kind of deck)
01:40:41 <BusyBeaver42> We are a bit more efficient than that and can get BB(5->5->5->5->5) or
01:41:00 <b_jonas> yeah, so not just the argument to the BB function, but eventually the argument of some fast-growing function
01:43:38 <BusyBeaver42> before the infinite was found we were thinking we could then do more computation, building off of the output from that
01:44:15 <BusyBeaver42> and actually do quite a lot of computations actually
01:45:34 <BusyBeaver42> but now we either have to switch to the flooding version, or only get the one BB iteration
01:50:16 <BusyBeaver42> so we really would like the flooding version to be TC
01:52:04 <BusyBeaver42> (Technically we could get away with a bit less than TC, but that's splitting hairs)
01:53:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87342&oldid=87105 * Ais523 * (-31752) clear Sandbox
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02:30:42 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87343&oldid=87314 * Razetime * (+4) spelling corrections
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02:56:11 <ais523> BusyBeaver42: I'm here, but I still don't have much of an idea of whether it's TC or not – it seems like a hard language to do a TCness proof or disproof for
02:59:31 <ais523> b_jonas: I think the requirement was to get the opponent's life total as negative as possible, so most loops with a damaging effect in would just set it down to -1 or -2 or so and then stop because you'd won the game
03:00:35 <ais523> hmm, now I'm reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xigxag, which is the sort of language which seems very unlikely to be TC and yet it's hard to disprove
03:02:37 <ais523> flooding Waterfall Model is better-behaved than Xigxag is, so it's more likely to be TC, but presents the same sort of problem in trying to prove it
03:26:06 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, if you don't use DMM's group's rule about that then that's another way to avoid some infinite loops, but that doesn't help avoid big finite loops. for that you need a limited resource, such as your deck or your own hit points, and BusyBeaver42 says they have one in that deck
03:32:39 <BusyBeaver42> yeah, the short version is we'd get a batch of computations for every sorcery we cast, the cheapest sorcery costs 2 life, and we gain life via 1 red mana, gain red via blue gain blue via white and gain white via green, gain green by drawing black lotus, draw cards with floating dream zubera with some other optimizations in there.
03:34:47 <BusyBeaver42> with the 'exchange rate' of those resources improving to the output of the last BB computation, the numbers get astronomical even if the busy beaver function was linear
03:37:35 <BusyBeaver42> ais523: one question I have that's maybe slightly easier than TC-ness is is any halting waterfall machine has a halting flooding machine that runs for at least as long
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03:38:55 <ais523> if you could prove that, I suspect you could prove TCness
03:39:24 <ais523> I don't think it's even theoretically possible for a sub-TC language to have a busy beaver that grows faster than a TC language
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03:40:35 <ais523> certainly, it's impossible for a language whose halting problem is decidable to have a busy beaver that grows faster than a TC language's
03:40:36 <ais523> (but I'm not sure about the possibility of sub-TC but undecidable languages)
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03:44:07 <ais523> if you have two languages A and B, B is Turing-complete, and A is computable (i.e. not super-Turing), then BB_A(n) < BB_B(n+k) for some constant k
03:44:24 <ais523> so it's impossible for a sub-TC language to have a busy beaver function that grows meaningfully faster than that for a TC language
03:45:37 <ais523> or, hmm, this actually relies on B having some sort of fairly sane string literals
03:45:40 <ais523> but The Waterfall Model does
03:45:58 <ais523> otherwise you can create a language with an insane encoding
03:50:43 <BusyBeaver42> I guess that makes sense, I was hoping for a shortcut, but seems like no such luck
03:57:02 <BusyBeaver42> Though we dont need "meaningfully faster" than the BB function.
04:01:59 <ais523> when it comes to busy beaver functions, there's usually no real difference
04:02:43 <BusyBeaver42> We could also potentially have 2 'normal' waterclocks
04:02:48 <esolangs> [[The Language That Explodes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87344 * Ais523 * (+2423) new joke language
04:03:54 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87345&oldid=86876 * Ais523 * (+79) /* General languages */ +[[The Language That Explodes]]
04:04:34 <BusyBeaver42> Though i'm not sure how much that helps with TC
04:05:58 <ais523> yes, that would make things easier (although they're probably still too difficult)
04:06:46 <ais523> what's the precise rule for determining how much gets added to a flooding waterclock?
04:08:48 <BusyBeaver42> when a flooding clock trips, instead of sending 1 copy of its row, it sends X where X is how much it has been incremented since the last time it tripped.
04:13:17 <ais523> I need to go to bed; I may think about it some more, but I can't guarantee that I'll find the answer (it seems like a pretty hard problem, and finding the original version of Waterfall took me years)
04:13:41 <ais523> it might be interesting to create a page on the wiki about it, in case it attracts attention of any of the esolang experts who don't use IRC (although that's a fairly long shot)
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04:38:38 <b_jonas> "even if the busy beaver function was linear" => now that's an odd hypothetical
04:39:34 <BusyBeaver42> yeah, i mean it would be less than the BB function
04:39:56 <BusyBeaver42> but you start chaining arrows together and things get big fast
04:40:50 <b_jonas> you mentioned 5->5->5->5->5, that's already big
04:45:40 <BusyBeaver42> last year's standard deck got to (42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→50→7
04:48:06 <BusyBeaver42> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wjjHXZgGTnI0Qu6-L8pSyz9RZ72XL5xj4FszvHr2eaU/edit?usp=sharing
05:01:10 <zzo38> What rules are you using for "most damage without infinite" Magic: the Gathering, such as: What format and deck restrictions? What is opponent (if any) doing? What are you trying to damage (or does it matter)? Are any state-based actions ignored? etc?
05:16:54 <BusyBeaver42> mainly, vintage. opponents deck is 60 wastes, and will act against our interests, we are damaging the opponent, and all rules of MTG are observed the entire time
05:19:10 <BusyBeaver42> We've been doing a standard deck every year, though those don't need to go off turn 1
05:20:03 <zzo38> OK. What will be done with random effects (including shuffling)?
05:21:01 <BusyBeaver42> though the distribution is so skewed that this is the average damage as well
05:27:42 <BusyBeaver42> sideboard would basically make the deck 74 cards + a wish
06:35:37 <esolangs> [[Flooding Waterfall Model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87346 * FortyTwo * (+1826) Rough draft of flooding waterclocks
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07:05:26 <nakilon> someone here asked how to move the edge around block in own analogue of dot
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07:06:13 <nakilon> judging from -v verbose flag I assume dot creates fake vertices along the edges to optimize them
07:08:23 <nakilon> looks like 1500 vertices is too much for him ..( https://i.imgur.com/LZGkV8T.png
07:09:36 <nakilon> 1500 vertices and 9000 edges
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09:07:58 <nakilon> probably I didn't have to invent a wheel of reducing the graph few months ago (if you remember, it was about homebrew deps tree)
09:08:09 <nakilon> https://graphviz.org/pdf/tred.1.pdf -- this thing seems to be installed with graphviz
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10:15:43 <b_jonas> BusyBeaver42: and your deck is limited to 60 cards?
10:16:24 <b_jonas> "sideboard would basically make the deck 74 cards + a wish" ah, that answers it. so yes, 60 cards.
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12:57:57 <nakilon> also it is in Mathematica https://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/TransitiveReductionGraph.html
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15:24:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thesundidntvanish * New user account
15:43:54 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87347&oldid=87220 * TheJonyMyster * (+3205) Added Headascii section
15:44:43 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87348&oldid=87347 * TheJonyMyster * (-20) removed unnecessary table title
15:47:22 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87349&oldid=87017 * Spargle * (+188) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
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16:41:37 <esolangs> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87351&oldid=63921 * Cortex * (-94) bye i guess
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16:49:03 <BusyBeaver42> b_jonas yeah both decks are limited to 60 cards
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17:45:50 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87353&oldid=87352 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+96) /* Syntax */
17:54:03 <esolangs> [[YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87354&oldid=87153 * Martsadas * (+1307)
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18:30:00 <BusyBeaver42> good news for you ais523, flooding clocks have a similar problem with infinites, so its not super relevant if its TC or not
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18:34:48 <BusyBeaver42> The infinite is related to the fact that some of our creatures have two types, and we can have three of those arcbonded and kept barely alive by two different clocks that refill themselves, then reordering the arcbond triggers can cause them to die (123123 ->12131213)
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19:09:02 <BusyBeaver42> it might still matter if we replace arcbond with massacre girl, but she's very restrictive as we don't want to be able to set off a computation too easily.
19:12:11 <ais523> it's still an interesting question in theory, although I'm a little relieved it doesn't have an urgent practical use
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19:59:54 <esolangs> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87355&oldid=82405 * RocketRace * (+87) portsy
20:00:33 <BusyBeaver42> that's a pretty generous definition of practical
20:25:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Heptor * New user account
20:29:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87356&oldid=87338 * Heptor * (+210) /* Introductions */
20:33:17 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87357&oldid=87127 * FLeckami21 * (+260) adding Sokolang
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20:48:26 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87358 * Heptor * (+1409) Matrixfuck is a brainfuck derivative with the memory being a 2d array.
20:50:17 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87359&oldid=87358 * Heptor * (+104) /* Syntax */
20:55:52 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87360&oldid=87335 * FLeckami21 * (+0)
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21:23:05 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87365&oldid=87364 * Heptor * (+33) /* Syntax */
21:35:36 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87366&oldid=87365 * Heptor * (+245)
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21:53:11 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87370&oldid=87273 * TheJonyMyster * (-10) toggles implies on or off, can probably be cleaned up still though
21:54:05 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87371&oldid=87369 * Heptor * (-31) /* Syntax */
21:58:08 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87372&oldid=87371 * Heptor * (+290) /* Syntax */
21:58:55 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87373&oldid=87343 * Salpynx * (+11) /* turing */ 'truth-machine' is what this program form is known as
21:59:38 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87374&oldid=87372 * Heptor * (+17) /* Syntax */
22:02:56 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87375&oldid=87374 * Heptor * (+106) /* Implementation notes */
22:03:20 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87376&oldid=87375 * Heptor * (+0) /* Syntax */
22:04:12 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87377&oldid=87376 * Heptor * (-2) /* Syntax */
22:04:28 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87378&oldid=87377 * Heptor * (+8) /* Syntax */
22:06:18 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87379&oldid=87378 * Heptor * (+57) /* Syntax */
22:06:55 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87380&oldid=87379 * Heptor * (-57) /* Syntax */
22:07:42 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87381&oldid=87380 * Heptor * (+93) /* Notes */
22:38:30 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87382&oldid=87381 * Heptor * (+313)
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22:43:00 <nakilon> someone's new online befunge interpreter https://tjol.eu/rfunge/
22:43:16 <nakilon> written in rust, aims for 98
22:45:37 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87383&oldid=87382 * Heptor * (-119) /* Implementation notes */
22:51:32 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87384&oldid=87383 * Heptor * (+56) /* Notes */
23:07:00 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87385&oldid=87079 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+3130) Added TwoBrainsfuck
23:13:17 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87386&oldid=87384 * Heptor * (+130) /* Notes */
23:13:31 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87387&oldid=87386 * Heptor * (-8)
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