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01:08:08 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87822&oldid=87818 * PixelatedStarfish * (+102) /* Syntax */
01:09:44 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87823&oldid=87822 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Commands */
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01:19:41 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87824&oldid=87823 * PixelatedStarfish * (+132) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:21:49 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87825&oldid=87824 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:22:17 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87826&oldid=87825 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:24:23 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87827&oldid=87826 * PixelatedStarfish * (+123) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:36:11 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87828&oldid=86949 * CosmicMan08 * (+0) clarification
02:00:33 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87829&oldid=87827 * PixelatedStarfish * (+660) /* Values on the Deque */
02:04:17 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87830&oldid=87829 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) /* Cells and the Grid */
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02:21:30 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87831&oldid=87830 * PixelatedStarfish * (+325) /* Accessing Memory Addresses */
02:22:03 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87832&oldid=87831 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Grammar */
02:27:46 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87833&oldid=87832 * PixelatedStarfish * (+326) /* Syntax */
02:28:20 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87834&oldid=87833 * PixelatedStarfish * (+44) /* Accessing Memory Addresses */
02:29:19 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87835&oldid=87834 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) /* Tokens */
02:29:35 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87836&oldid=87835 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Tokens */
02:30:23 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87837&oldid=87836 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
02:34:02 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87838&oldid=87837 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Memory */
02:36:01 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87839&oldid=87838 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71) /* Program Examples */
02:36:44 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87840&oldid=87839 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Truth Machine */
02:37:40 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87841&oldid=87840 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Truth Machine */
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02:44:15 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87842&oldid=87841 * PixelatedStarfish * (+699) /* Program Examples */
02:44:31 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87843&oldid=87842 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
02:45:05 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87844&oldid=87843 * PixelatedStarfish * (-99)
02:45:46 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87845&oldid=87844 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43)
02:46:26 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87846&oldid=87845 * PixelatedStarfish * (-42)
02:55:04 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87847&oldid=87846 * PixelatedStarfish * (+221) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
02:56:05 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87848&oldid=87817 * PixelatedStarfish * (-289) /* Plans */
02:58:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87849&oldid=87848 * PixelatedStarfish * (+160) /* Unimplemented Languages */
02:59:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87850&oldid=87849 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Vessel */
03:00:53 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87851&oldid=87850 * PixelatedStarfish * (+47) /* Heck */
03:05:41 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87852&oldid=87847 * PixelatedStarfish * (+339)
03:06:07 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87853&oldid=87852 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
03:07:12 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87854&oldid=87853 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28)
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03:07:39 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87855&oldid=87854 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
03:08:50 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87856&oldid=87821 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48)
03:11:54 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87857&oldid=87855 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68)
03:13:06 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87858&oldid=87712 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:13:22 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87859&oldid=87135 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:13:39 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87860&oldid=86810 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:13:58 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87861&oldid=87699 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:15:43 <nakilon> what does "CPart of cycle" mean at https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters ?
03:17:37 <Hooloovoo> it means that in the directed graph of languages which can interpret other languages, the language is part of a cycle
03:18:00 <Hooloovoo> bub can do brainfuck, bf can do bub
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03:24:35 <nakilon> I've just realised that I don't need two growing stacks to interpret brainfuck because I can store [] stacks within the same stack of bf code so I might finally make it in rasel
03:25:41 <nakilon> Hooloovoo indeed, only once use of C
04:09:54 <esolangs> [[Dc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87862&oldid=87740 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Computational class */ this isn't actually a list at all, so it probably shouldn't have commas (and if it does they should come in pairs to offset a parenthetical)
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05:15:46 <nakilon> ah, nope, the second stack was bf's tape; anyway, I can store bf code in every 2i cell and bf tape in every 2i+1
05:30:23 <oerjan> if your "stack" actually has random access you only need one indeed
05:57:57 <nakilon> since there is no argv in rasel and so there is only one kind of getc I suppose I have to define an format
05:58:29 <nakilon> such as "brainfuck code should end with 0x00 and then goes the bf stdin"
06:04:36 <oerjan> it is somewhat customary to use ! as the separator
06:04:59 <oerjan> although technically that's a legal comment character (but then so is 0x00)
06:05:32 <oerjan> (well at least several of our bots use it
06:05:53 <oerjan> hm apparently lambdabot doesn't
06:06:10 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
06:06:38 <oerjan> which means it might not be able to do input
06:06:57 <oerjan> @bf ,[.,]]another logical option
06:21:06 <nakilon> hmmm thinking now about the difference between the "translator" and "interpreter"; I already made the translator few months ago -- it kind of reformats the bf code into rasel 2d code and then you can run it with any existing interpreter of rasel; in case of making an interpreter now the rasel code won't be generated per bf program and it will act
06:21:06 <nakilon> depending on the input bf code; i.e. there is no "snapshot" state then you run after it's generated -- you might think that there is a definition of the difference between translator and intpreter here somewhere; but! since "there is no argv" and that my "bf rasel interpreter" will have to preload all the bf code before execution it's technically
06:21:06 <nakilon> possible to "save the state" after the preloading and before the running and export it as a rasel code that would artificially fill the stack with bf code and then the "interpreter" to be appended
06:22:40 <nakilon> so if you save the interpreter state in a special (pure rasel code) format it would be effectively the same as translating
06:27:38 <nakilon> or is the difference between translator and interpreter in that translator does not reformat the original language code stream? but then ok, if I reformat the bf code stream into a chain of razel base36 literals you may say that's where the "translation" was, at least partically; but what if I use the stringmode ("") instructions to preserve the
06:31:56 <oerjan> nakilon: i think you've just proved that there is no firm boundary. some interpreters will compile (translate) on the fly, and some languages (i think perl?) allow you to save the current state of the runtime after things like parsing for quicker startup.
06:32:17 <oerjan> *some language runtimes
06:34:09 <oerjan> so in the right context, an interpreter can be turned into a compiler or vice versa.
06:49:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, but if you have a hard to program language like rasel, then there is a difference between eg. a bf interpreter written in pure rasel, one that reads the bf code with the rasel IO and needs nothing but rasel to run it, and a translator that translates bf code to rasel code and possibly input to that code
06:50:01 <b_jonas> s/difference/firm boundary/
06:50:27 <nakilon> hmm, maybe in this exact case the differenve between the existing "bf to rasel translator" and the future "interpreter" is in that the translator had to be written in ruby, not in pure rasel and the interpreter would be a thing that does not need any additional ruby code
06:50:51 <b_jonas> this is most obvious if you think of a bf to bf translator versus a bf interpreter in bf
06:53:27 <nakilon> I guess the "difference between translator and interpreter" is just a different question from the "difference between these two I'm making"
06:54:09 <oerjan> yeah if you think of it as a bootstrapping problem then it's a firmer distinction
06:54:23 <nakilon> because theorethically I can make a translator from bf to rasel in pure rasel
06:54:59 <oerjan> nakilon: of course the bootstrapping way is to translate the translator
06:55:25 <oerjan> after which you can throw away the non-rasel stuff
06:56:15 <oerjan> but then it has to translate its own language
06:57:48 <nakilon> https://i.gifer.com/origin/4c/4c9aa95eab8893f208b8406e103a3fed.gif
07:06:40 <nakilon> lol I never checked out the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJ1dbyDcrI
07:08:10 <oerjan> nakilon: this _shouldn't_ be mindblowing, it's essentially how something like gcc or clang gets ported to a new computer architecture - you add a new backend that allows it to translate itself to the new machine code
07:12:19 <oerjan> (ok i guess everything can be mindblowing the first time)
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07:18:33 <b_jonas> admittedly rasel isn't as limited as brainfuck, so it's easier to write an interpreter in rasel than in bf
07:21:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: that gcc thing skims over a lot of real world technical problems that come up when you do that, but sure
07:22:38 <nakilon> by implementing rasel in rasel I would be able to "throw away" the ruby gem rasel but not the ruby runtime though
07:23:08 <nakilon> wait, that won't even be enough
07:25:33 <nakilon> it's more layers that just gcc/clang thing
07:26:03 <nakilon> even if ruby was compilable
07:58:32 <nakilon> found about "!" here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Extensions but the example snippet isn't clear; it's like eating the first space characters that's not a universal thing to do
07:59:37 <nakilon> or it was just a bad choice to format this wiki part with code block instead of a marker list maybe
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08:16:15 <nakilon> yesterday I woke up in the middle of a dream where some guy was teaching me how to easily draw any angle via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straightedge_and_compass_construction using some cleer iterative divisions by 2, 3, etc. -- then I woke up and could not remember _<>
08:17:37 <nakilon> this is saying not any angle can be drawn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructible_polygon but I'll now go try catch that guy again
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11:27:29 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87863&oldid=72193 * YamTokTpaFa * (+40) /* External resources */
11:34:41 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87864&oldid=87863 * YamTokTpaFa * (+149) /* External resources */
11:38:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87865&oldid=87769 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* V */ .
11:48:54 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87866&oldid=87864 * YamTokTpaFa * (+5) /* Loops and events */ 1. Blank line to be formatted; 2. Were you missing a '-' from '<-'?
11:50:20 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87867&oldid=87866 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* Operand overloading */ Why slat while you are talking about backslat?
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14:50:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I can prove https://esolangs.org/wiki/Infinite_Vector Turing-complete. I can simulate a one-dimensional cellular automaton in it, with almost any rules with the restriction that the alphabet is at most 2**256 sized (the size of the largest built-in integer type), and that the 0 state is sessile (so if the neighborhood of a cell is 0
14:50:10 <wob_jonas> then the cell will stay 0 in the next step).
14:55:48 <wob_jonas> I store the state of the CA in a vector such that cell k is stored in the element of index (1<<k)-1, and all other elements are 0. If A is such an array, then Ar0++Ar1=A;Ar=Ar0$Ar1; computes the cells cyclically rotated by 1 into Ar, and similarly Al0$Al1=A;Al=Al1++Al0; computes the cells cyclically rotated left by 1 into Al. To evolve the state by
14:55:48 <wob_jonas> a step, you compute all the rotations to get the neighbor elements that the rule depends on, then use a conjunction of comparisons to determine which rule of the CA applies, and a ?: conditional chain with those conditions and the new cell state if that condition is true.
14:58:29 <wob_jonas> Every iteration of the Infinite Vector loop computes one step of the cellular automaton. You use A=A++0; to add a 0 padding to the right of the CA array, and do enough of this each step that it simulates the CA array being padded by zeroes, so the cyclic rotations only rotate in zeroes. At the start of your program, you use a constant
14:58:29 <wob_jonas> initialization statement to start from the CA's starting step.
15:00:11 <wob_jonas> To add a halting condition, you have to use a CA that zeroes itself out in the halting state, and add a A:-( statement to the IV program. But you can compile any program to such a CA state if you translate it from a one-tape Turing-machine program, and write the Turing-machine program to track where the ends of the parts it uses of the tape are and
15:00:12 <wob_jonas> zeroes out the whole tape before halting, and you can translate that from a two-stack machine.
15:01:11 <wob_jonas> Infinite Vector is probably not non-interactive-IO-complete the way you defined its IO now.
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15:10:31 <wob_jonas> when you translate from the Turing-machine to the cellular automaton, you'd translate both the halting state of the TM and the empty state of the tape to 0, this looks ambiguous at first but I think it works
15:16:34 <wob_jonas> alternately you could start from any TM (that need not zero itself), then when the TM reaches halting state, which would be represented by the halting state appearing in exactly one cell of the CA, you change it to two special states, say 1 and 2, in two neighboring cells, then add new CA rules such that 1 moves left by several cells and zeroes out
15:16:34 <wob_jonas> everything it passes, 2 stays stationary, and when the 1 meets the 2 from the other side, they annihilate to all zeroes, only this time the 1 should propagate faster than how fast you expand the array that represents the CA, and so also faster than the speed of light of the TM
15:17:28 <wob_jonas> you could probably also modify a CA directly, but you have to be slightly more careful with the rules because the halting cell value could show up multiple times
15:20:09 <wob_jonas> (and of course you have to reduce the TM or the CA to fit in the 2**256 limit, but the standard method works for that)
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15:48:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ithkuil * New user account
15:50:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Demons]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87868 * PixelatedStarfish * (+138) Created page with "Let me know if you like an interpreter or a logo for this lang! I cannot really a hard completion deadline, but I think this would be fun!"
15:50:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Demons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87869&oldid=87868 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27)
16:00:22 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87870&oldid=87856 * PixelatedStarfish * (+90) /* Syntax */
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16:21:03 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87871&oldid=87870 * PixelatedStarfish * (+62) /* The Metalanguage */
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16:41:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87872&oldid=87819 * Ithkuil * (+133) /* Introductions */
16:42:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87873&oldid=69431 * Ithkuil * (+1089)
16:43:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87874&oldid=87873 * Ithkuil * (+21)
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17:15:20 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Bijection between reals and the powerset of naturals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87875&oldid=87720 * Hakerh400 * (+141) Forbid a specific 3-tuple
17:18:31 <Corbin> Hm. I wonder if Hakerh400 knows about continued fractions yet, or other ways to make streams of naturals into productive real numbers.
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19:21:58 <b_jonas> ok, what I said earlier about Infinite Vector wasn't count right, because the array roll operations don't work as is. let me figure out if that's some simple typos that can be fixed, or if it's a significant flaw
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19:44:46 <b_jonas> it can be fixed. the element index k of the CA array is stored in element index (1<<k) in the IV vector (rather than (1<<k)-1 which I said before), the statements to roll right is A0++A1=A;Ar=A0$A1;, and the statements to roll left is A0$A1=A;Al=A0++A1;,
19:45:33 <b_jonas> you still store zeros in every other item of the IV vector, and you still grow the CA array with a zero on the right by doing A=A++0;
19:49:53 <b_jonas> ais523: ^ correction to what I said earlier today about Infinite Vector the esolang
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22:10:12 <b_jonas> (you can also make the original scheme work, but you have to be more careful, you can't just use it as cyclic shifts, you have to use them as normal shifts that UB if you shift zero out in either direction)
22:11:59 <nakilon> the guy with ruler and angles wasn't there (
22:18:44 <nakilon> omg, I don't understand how gemified rasel-ide worked for me but it isn't now; it requires jquery-3.6.0.min.js that isn't attached to the bin/ shims
22:21:19 <nakilon> never decide that you are done with something when you want to sleep
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