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01:13:25 <spruit11> man page: https://egel.tiiny.site/
01:24:50 <zzo38> Can it be downloaded in the man page format instead of HTML?
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01:28:55 <fizzie> I'm guessing it would be the file at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/egel-lang/egel/master/man/egel.1
01:39:07 <spruit11> yah, it's generated from markdown. took a while to get accustomed to this syntax again though. page has quirks but ah well
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02:28:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shift-eleven * New user account
02:31:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87969&oldid=87918 * Shift-eleven * (+188)
02:32:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87970&oldid=87969 * Shift-eleven * (+0)
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04:24:01 <nakilon> 20:37:56 <hanif> [[w:Low (complexity)]]
04:24:03 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/1+
04:24:08 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/List%20of%20complexity%20classes
04:24:25 * Corbin should do more work on that page
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04:26:35 <nakilon> those roman letters will have no place in my charset; the one he included them was probably not told that there are fonts
04:32:52 <keegan> 11:58 < HackEso> [U+2188 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND]
04:32:55 <keegan> wow never saw this one before
04:33:42 <keegan> almost as cool as Multiocular O
04:33:49 <keegan> of which I am an official sponsor
04:38:47 <zzo38> I had tried to write to promote my project (perhaps one thing is I don't know what to write). Sometimes I did but not much happened. Sometimes I could not find it. Sometimes other things fail. In one case, I got a message about being banned due to my IP address, but the IP address they mentioned is not the correct address that I connected from, and there was a broken link to ask the administrator.
04:39:18 <nakilon> I just had a dream about being physically hacked
04:40:55 <nakilon> I was playing in some shooter video game and you know video games in dreams are always mixing with "reality", so we were shooting each other, getting loot, trying different weapons, and when you change or upgrade or idk, doing something with it there is a wall with a hole
04:42:25 <nakilon> where you insert something and get ammo in return, and instead of ammo something long starting coming out, some copper ribbon that never ends, and the game provides nothing to cut it so I was effectively stuck taking out that bought infinite ribbon
04:43:45 <zzo38> Now I don't know what to do.
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05:35:18 <nakilon> I don't like this OEIS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpi%C5%84ski_number
05:36:03 <nakilon> for years looking at those sequences I never suspected there might be numbers added in between of already computated lists
05:37:45 <nakilon> for example I could somehow find a yet unknown number in the list, so I put it in a search and it says no results
05:38:52 <Corbin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_or_Bust is a nice way to look at that particular situation; there are six "Colbert numbers" left, and that should slowly decrease to zero.
05:38:53 <nakilon> I mean the sequence should not be there or should be somehow marked that it contains gaps
05:39:31 <nakilon> that progress might never end
05:40:47 <Corbin> Sure, OEIS should probably indicate this somewhere. But I think it's fine for folks who are implementing sequences from OEIS to realize for themselves when a function is recursive or otherwise definitely gap-free.
05:41:39 <nakilon> so for any time you put some search sequence and find no results (or even if you find some!) there might be an unknown number of other OEIS sequences added like this one that won't show up in results
05:42:11 <nakilon> so there is no point to hold it there if it does not show up by searching even such small numbers as 5 digits long or even shorter
05:44:07 <nakilon> I think it should have additional list of "proven to not be there" attached
05:44:31 <nakilon> so the search results could say "maybe it is this OEIS, but definitely not this one"
05:45:54 <nakilon> or listing the yet unproved candidates, does not matter
05:59:45 <nakilon> https://programming.guide/worlds-most-copied-so-snippet.html
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06:53:40 <nakilon> how do you automatically decide what looks better? "1 mon 3 weeks" or "7 weeks 2 days" or "51 days"
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08:27:32 <b_jonas> I's like to complain about the touchscreen UI of the self-service checkout machine in a supermarket. the problematic case is when I buy a few, say 5, normal items, plus 12 cheap candy bars. I want to be able to check on on the touchscreen interface if it counted the right number of candy bars. the touchscreen displays the last 9 items that you scanned, which in this case will be "candy bar 33g 89 /
08:27:38 <b_jonas> candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89". there's a touchable pair of arrows that scroll the list up. if you press the up arrow, it tries to scroll up one full screen (9 lines), but doesn't scroll further than the top of the list. so you see "bread 1kg 360 / milk 1.4 1l 260 / garbage bag 35l 850
08:27:44 <b_jonas> / fruit-flavored juice 470 / sausage 1120 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89". if you scroll down again, it just goes to the previous state. VERY USEFUL, darned interface.
08:28:16 <b_jonas> a cashier did show me the workaround though: hold the feed button on the recipt printer, check how many candy bar lines are on the paper recipt so far
08:33:57 <nakilon> this is one of the best things about touchpad vs desktop with mouse
08:34:28 <nakilon> you can't count or even follow things that you scroll in chunks
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09:14:09 <Hooloovoo> well, I mean, some things have smooth scrolling
09:15:22 <Hooloovoo> at least where I live though, all the supermarket checkout things are touchscreens - I don't think I've ever really bought a lot of a single item like that though. seems like they could do it well with a scrollbar, but it might "clutter the interface" or something
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09:24:26 <nakilon> they just have to print "x6"
09:45:18 <fizzie> The Sainsbury's machines do group identical items together. Or at least the handheld scanner you grab to scan items as you go, I don't remember if the traditional self-checkout machines do.
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10:38:47 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cn="/hackenv/bin/fromroman";s=open(n).read();o=s.replace('{(sh','{uc((sh').replace('0]}','0])}');print(o);open(n,"w").write(o);print("write successful");
10:38:50 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$r{$t}=$_;$t}k for s""\$"..4e3;print $r{uc((shift=~/(\w+)/)[0])},$/ \ \ write successful
10:40:01 <int-e> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/generated/numpy.matrix.html "It is no longer recommended to use this class, even for linear algebra. Instead use regular arrays." would be *far* more helpful with a transition guide that explains how to do matrix operations the new way
10:40:34 <int-e> Since, apparently, A*B on arrays is pointwise, leading to *huge* confusion.
10:41:12 <wib_jonas> int-e: try either the .dot() method or, with new enough python, the @ infix operator
10:42:04 <int-e> wib_jonas: Oh now that I knew what I'm looking for that information was easy to find.
10:42:47 <int-e> Well, still missing one piece of the puzzle... but I guess that will fall into place momentarily
10:45:06 <wib_jonas> also, since this may not be easy to find, if you want matrix computations in C++, I recommend http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/
10:45:37 <int-e> I have used that one, maybe on your recommendation; I forgot.
10:46:53 <int-e> regardless, my complaint is that "use arrays instead" doesn't give any hint as to changed operator semantics
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10:47:39 <int-e> I guess you're supposed to infer that from "It has certain special operators, such as * (matrix multiplication) and ** (matrix power)."
10:51:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87971&oldid=87939 * VilgotanL * (+222)
10:52:52 <int-e> I may have come across this issue before and forgotten about it.
10:53:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87972&oldid=87971 * VilgotanL * (+12)
10:55:36 <int-e> actually this whole experience would've been a lot better if numpy didn't allow me to write matrix * array expressions.
10:56:55 <int-e> Because for the first half hour of debugging this I was quite unaware that I was juggling with two different types and getting into a huge mess because of that
10:57:47 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87973&oldid=87930 * VilgotanL * (+51)
11:02:20 <nakilon> "would be *far* more helpful" was never a consideration in pithon docs
11:09:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: I wasn't even aware that there was a "matrix" class in numpy
11:09:32 <wib_jonas> I don't think I ever constructed one; but then I haven't written my numpy code
11:09:42 <wib_jonas> I sort of have a love-hate relationship with numpy
11:10:06 <wib_jonas> it's well-written and well-known enough, but has too many odd quirks and irregularities\
11:10:34 <wib_jonas> but at least it has a nice python interface, also a C API, and its indexes are 0-based. those alone make it better than most array libraries.
11:11:49 <wib_jonas> and designing a good easily usable numerical array library without odd quirks is a very hard problem, possibly impossible, possibly just not yet solved
11:29:28 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87974&oldid=87973 * VilgotanL * (+176) fix truth-machine
11:48:02 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87975&oldid=87974 * VilgotanL * (+123) add implementation
11:49:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87976&oldid=87972 * VilgotanL * (+203) update
11:52:50 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87977&oldid=87975 * VilgotanL * (+2507) add hello world
12:08:52 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87978&oldid=85328 * VilgotanL * (+12) add mogus to language list
12:33:13 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/%F0%9F%90%A2
12:33:26 <velik> 🐢 is an esolang by VilgotanL created for an esojam in Truttle1's discord server, it uses an accumulator and a cell tape that can both hold unbounded integers. https://esolangs.org/wiki/%F0%9F%90%A2
12:41:47 <esolangs> [[Suscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87979 * VilgotanL * (+1383) Created page with "Suscript is a cell-based esolang by people in the amogus esolang crew, this page is a WIP. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" |- | <code>eject ''"string"''</code> || Pri..."
12:46:56 <nakilon> there is some alternative reality with Not applicable and other guys who make languages every week
12:56:52 <esolangs> [[Suscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87980&oldid=87979 * VilgotanL * (+179) add computational class
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13:54:00 <nakilon> wow this was long ago https://i.imgur.com/fTVRjAl.png
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15:43:43 <esolangs> [[List of complexity classes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87981&oldid=87267 * Corbin * (+1644) Add a section on L.
15:44:14 <Corbin> keegan: ^^^ Please LMK if this is headed in the right direction. I'm trying to be precise while not wasting words.
15:53:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * G cat101 * New user account
15:56:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87982&oldid=87970 * G cat101 * (+154)
15:56:53 <zzo38> I also want to complain about touch screens; I don't like touch screen, and I think using a keyboard would be better
15:57:09 <esolangs> [[BuxRo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87983&oldid=58964 * G cat101 * (+0) fixed the typo
15:59:46 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87984&oldid=87926 * AceKiron * (-8818) Replaced content with "'''School''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] developed by [[User:AceKiron]], it originally started development on June 15th 2021, but has been deprecated. Later it..."
15:59:48 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/An%20esoteric%20programming%20language%20(ess-oh-terr-ick),%20or%20esolang,%20is%20a%20computer%20programming%20language%20designed%20to%20experiment%20with%20weird%20ideas,%20to%20be%20hard%20to%20program%20in,%20or%20as%20a%20joke,%20rather%20than%20for%20practical%20use. https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:AceKiron
16:00:04 <nakilon> time to implement the ignore
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16:09:12 <hanif> Corbin: looks like there's already a channel for esolangs https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO-PlVJRfGIVZuzu6e_0qOvqRnM_TdNye
16:24:01 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> int-e: I wasn't even aware that there was a "matrix" class in numpy => b_jonas: AFAIK today that class is just for backward compatibility, it’s suggested to use ndarrays all the way
16:24:55 <arseniiv> <nakilon> there is some alternative reality with Not applicable and other guys who make languages every week => there is a discord server somewhere, there was a ton of people when I once checked what that was
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16:48:54 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87985&oldid=87958 * Nakilon * (-2) test [[the]] ignore
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16:52:09 <nakilon> the thumbnail for Whitespace video on that channel
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16:54:56 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87986&oldid=87984 * AceKiron * (+458)
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17:34:46 <int-e> wtf *is* velik doing there... turn [[link]] into URL, fetch that URL, then turn that into an URL again?
17:39:59 <nakilon> only searches to make full url
17:40:46 <nakilon> and makes url too because why not, the response already has text and you might want to read more
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17:55:33 <int-e> nakilon: so how did that <esolangs> message trigger that particular result which evidently includes contents of [[esoteric programming language]]?
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17:58:42 <nakilon> that's not contents, that's URL of the article ..D
18:00:49 <nakilon> probably needs category Unusable for programming btw
18:01:20 <int-e> Huh. So that is a valid link... but why didn't it end up on the more obvious https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language?
18:02:28 <nakilon> hm, my IRC client does not include the trailing "." so if you click you don't hit the correct address
18:03:12 <nakilon> /shrug https://i.imgur.com/Wyye3Id.png
18:03:53 <nakilon> same with brainfuck -- wiki seems to dislike exact title match
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18:19:32 <hanif> i've had to resort to my search engine to search wikipedia several times
18:28:27 <hanif> to find me the matching wikipedia article
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18:29:25 <hanif> (mostly when i'm not bothered to spend effort in spelling correctly)
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18:31:52 <int-e> "my search engine" is usually similar to "my car"
18:32:07 <int-e> It's the one I use, it doesn't mean I built it.
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18:43:57 <fizzie> Yeah, there was a similar thing where the first hit for https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=Brainfuck&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 is "Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php" (which again is a silly title rather than a piece of a URL).
18:44:22 <esolangs> [[JSInstruction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87987&oldid=87968 * Dominicentek * (-55)
18:44:51 <fizzie> I think it might dislike exact matches in the results list because it has a separate dedicated message ("there is a page named X on this wiki") for those.
18:45:11 <esolangs> [[JSInstruction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87988&oldid=87987 * Dominicentek * (-2)
18:45:31 <fizzie> I've no idea how it does ranking though.
18:54:32 <nakilon> I can make it select the one closest by levenshtein if this will happen a lot
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20:05:18 <oerjan> Corbin: i suspect your definition of s,t-forest accessibility is wrong, because it looks like just s,t-connectivity, which is NL-complete.
20:05:48 <oerjan> (i don't know what the former _should_ be, unless it's just that the graph must be a forest.)
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20:11:09 <oerjan> hm, "The same problem for undirected graphs is called undirected s-t connectivity and was shown to be L-complete by Omer Reingold."
20:12:58 <oerjan> i may have known that already but almost forgotten
20:13:27 * oerjan never actually took a class on complexity theory, just picked up some here and there
20:17:46 <oerjan> Corbin: btw L and NL are also self-low.
20:20:36 <oerjan> also, one of my favorite facts about L is that showing arithmetic is in it has some surprisingly deep parts (division, base conversion, and multiplying lists of numbers)
20:21:09 <oerjan> (it's easy to show multiplying just two numbers is in L, or adding a list)
20:22:28 <oerjan> i think perhaps once you have those deep parts you can also do power series
20:22:50 <oerjan> so you should get trigonometry etc. as well
20:23:12 <b_jonas> multiplying a list of numbers is in L?
20:25:08 <Melvar> <int-e> "my search engine" is usually similar to "my car" – Or, as some languages would have it, “my<alienable> search engine”, not “my<inalienable> search engine”.
20:29:48 <oerjan> b_jonas: well, integers at least. i haven't thought carefully about floating point.
20:30:45 <oerjan> all of these deep things work via doing arithmetic modulo a heap of small primes... the hard part is converting that back to a number in normal format
20:31:34 <oerjan> easy in P (use chinese remainder theorem)
20:35:11 <oerjan> and the clue if i recall correct is to find out just how to _compare_ numbers in chinese remainder format. which i've forgotten the details of.
20:36:33 <oerjan> also, much of this, perhaps all, works in the even lower complexity class TC^0.
20:36:58 <oerjan> (but i found it mindblowing enough to get L)
20:50:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, in P I can do it too, because you can multiply two numbers in linear time, so multiply a list of numbers in quadratic time
20:51:09 <b_jonas> and you don't even need to know that youc an multiply two numbers in linear time for that
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20:53:28 <oerjan> hm a corollary of this is that you can do factorial in linear working space
20:53:47 <oerjan> (with write-only output not counted)
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21:08:17 <Corbin> oerjan: I may have misread the 1986 paper I linked, but it showed s,t-connectivity for "forests", which includes both directed and undirected graphs. I am happy to learn that I've misunderstood.
21:36:16 <HackEso> complexity zoo? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:36:21 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the new link to it?
21:36:21 <fungot> b_jonas: que se fnord!!" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
21:36:34 <b_jonas> http://paste.lisp.org/display/fnord ?
21:38:36 <oerjan> Corbin: forests are by definition acyclic, unlike general graphs. also the directed version has an additional stipulation "outdegree zero or one".
21:43:42 <oerjan> also the cycle detection listed seems to be undirected
21:48:32 <oerjan> Corbin: however, it is a famous theorem (the one i quoted above) that general undirected graph connectivity is L-complete, which was not known yet at the time of that paper (UCONN in FL is listed as an open problem).
21:57:19 <Corbin> oerjan: Hm, okay, thanks.
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22:29:59 <nakilon> should I visit a fest tomorrow to take a selfie with 1 mln subs youtuber or should I stay at home keeping distancing