00:17:27 <zzo38> If unofficial cards are made up then such a rule may need written, too.
00:19:28 <zzo38> I had also thought of making up a new keyword ability "disable"; I had done such a thing before but it wasn't very good so I can consider to change its working entirely.
00:20:07 <zzo38> One possibility is to add attack mode and defense mode, which is specified for each attacking or blocking creature. Usually, the only possible mode is normal attack mode and normal defense mode.
01:52:12 <zzo38> And then, if a attacking creature has disable ability then you can choose to attack with normal mode or disabling mode; if disabling mode then you must select a creature controlled by defending player to attempt to disable. If that creature's type changes so that it is not a creature, it is still trying to be disabled though, although it must be a creature when being selected.
01:54:43 <zzo38> That creature cannot block unless a different creature blocks the creature using disable ability. And then, during combat damage step if it is unblocked then the effect is different from normal combat damage. Protection still helps, though.
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11:56:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: There's a modification to the CR that I'd like to suggest. This changes 104.3a, 104.5, 405.6, 704, 800.4. When a player concedes or an effect or 801.14 says that they lose the game, that player half-leaves the game. If a player half-left the game, and if a rule requires that they make a choice, then the next player in turn order makes that choice. If a player half-left the game, then any effects
11:56:39 <b_jonas> saying that they control another player end. If a player half-lost the game then they don't get priority, and if they have priority now then they pass it. As a new state-based action, if a player has half-left the game or then they leave the game when sba are checked, thus the rest of 800.4 apply from then. If a player has 0 or less life or attempted to draw from an empty library, when sba are checked
11:56:45 <b_jonas> they lose the game, and if they lost the game (no effect says that they don't or can't) then they half-leave the game and leave the game immediately (rather than only in the next loop of sba). If a player left the game, they can't leave the game again.
11:59:39 <b_jonas> The rationale for this is that 800.4 is a very complicated long rule, and it annoys me that its effect can apply any time, because a player can concede any time. So I make it so that most of it applies only at sba time instead. But if a player concedes, they shouldn't make decisions anymore, or get priority, so we patch that. This isn't perfect either, multiplayer rules are complicated, but I think it's
11:59:45 <b_jonas> better than the present rules.
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16:00:34 <esolangs> [[Linguarcana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94419&oldid=94414 * FrankPujo * (+27)
16:30:48 <zzo38> Yes, rules for conceding should need changed, and your suggestion could work, maybe.
16:46:17 <zzo38> One possible variant would be that effects causing that player to control someone do not end yet but are ignored. If any player has priority then state-based actions are checked immediately, just before the player who currently has priority gets it, unless it is the player who conceded in which case they pass (like you mentioned above). If all players except one team has half-lost the game, then te game ends immediately.
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16:54:07 <zzo38> I would also get rid of rule 800.4n. (If players agreed before the game started that the winner can keep those cards (for whatever duration), then that will still apply, but the cards would no longer be a part of the game (e.g. Darkpact cannot be used to retrieve it, effects that count the number of cards in ante zone do not count it, etc).)
16:57:07 <zzo38> Additionally, making half-leaving the game into full-leaving the game should also apply before turn-based actions are checked and before any object in the stack would begin to resolve.
17:01:44 <int-e> . o O ( What happens if all players half-left the game and there's a choice to be made? )
17:02:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: the reason why I added the rule that effects causing the half-left player to control another player ends is only for the stupid edge case when they're controlling the next player in turn order and so there's a loop in determining who makes choices for the half-left player
17:04:18 <b_jonas> but a secondary effect is that we don't want to give the replacement decider too much power, the main limit on that is that the half-dead player doesn't get priority, but the replacement decider (I guess I should call them a steward) suddenly at least seeing another player's hand and possibly being able to cast instants in their name if they happen to have priority is weird
17:05:01 <b_jonas> also it would lead to a situation where you're technically making decisions for another player as a steward but can't see what's in their hand
17:05:51 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what "effects causing that player to control someone do not end yet but are ignored." means. what would be the difference?
17:07:04 <b_jonas> "If all players except one team has half-lost the game, then te game ends immediately." => I'll have to think about that, that might be a good rule
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17:07:41 <b_jonas> "If any player has priority then state-based actions are checked immediately, just before the player who currently has priority gets it," => you have a point, so some of the alternate rules I said about priority might be redundant
17:09:42 <b_jonas> "Additionally, making half-leaving the game into full-leaving the game should also apply [...] before any object in the stack would begin to resolve." => I think that only happens after a pass, and a pass only happens after sba were checked in a loop, so that's redundant.
17:10:07 <b_jonas> int-e: "What happens if all players half-left the game and there's a choice to be made?" => oh, good question
17:10:09 <int-e> . o O ( Valve and WotC present: Half-Life: the Gathering )
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17:15:02 <b_jonas> int-e: as for terminology, yes, ideally we'd want only two terms instead of the three "leaves the game", "half-leaves the game", "loses the game", with "loses the game" meaning what I use "half-leaves play" means here.
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17:20:05 <b_jonas> and the game ends rule should probably be "If every player half-left the game then the game ends, the game is a draw, and all players and teams tournament-rule-won. Otherwise if every player from all but one team half-left the game then the game ends, that one team and all its players tournament-rule-won, all other teams and their players tournament-rule-lost."
17:22:09 <b_jonas> on one hand, "loses the game" should ideally be the term used for half-leaves the game, the thing that happens immediately, and the thing that Platinum Angel's effect should inhibit, so that the text of Platinum Angel and Door of Destinies can say "loses the game" and sound nice
17:23:20 <b_jonas> but on the other hand, you should make clear that if someone left the game and their teammate wins then they won the game in the tournament rules sense and didn't lose the game in the tournament rules sense, so there is something else that you might want to call "loses the game"
17:24:11 <b_jonas> I'd probably just say "CR-loses the game" for the former (half-leaves the game), and "tournament-loses the game" for the latter, but those are developer terms that probably shouldn't go to an official CR
17:26:53 <b_jonas> also I would have to check the CR for references to "loses the game" and "left play" in case they need to be modified with those alt rules; and also carefully read the finer points of 800.4 in case there's anything else that really ought to happen immediately
17:27:18 <b_jonas> as well as possibly other variant rules elsewhere that need to be modified for this
17:33:15 <b_jonas> somewhat different M:tG CR question. you know how the CR tries to have these invariants where (1) if all players know the rules and oracle texts perfectly then you can play the game without a judge, and (2) if one player knows the rule and oracle texts perfectly and can think fast enough then they can verify that no other player made a mistake or cheated by lying about game state (as opposed to cheated
17:33:21 <b_jonas> by sleight of hand), at least they can do so retroactively right after the end of the game when they can check that face-down permanents that were played with morph indeed had morph?
17:34:37 <b_jonas> and (2) applies even to outsiders examining public information or players who have left the game too, not just players
17:35:02 <b_jonas> my question is mostly, what are hard cases for these invariants, where either they break or they are close to breaking and hard to do
17:35:29 <b_jonas> there are probably some involving objects exiled face down
17:36:17 <b_jonas> and/or involving face-down permanents and/or involving permanents whose controller changed
17:39:21 <b_jonas> I phrased this a bit awkwardly but you can probably understand what I meant
17:41:51 <b_jonas> btw I have to admit the one drawback of the rule modifications that I suggested: the original rules are slight better in that if a player concedes because they have to leave quickly, they can take their physical cards with them earlier in some edge cases without confusing the other players too much
17:43:18 <b_jonas> to partly fix that, we could add the rule that if someone concedes while someone else has priority, then the priority is interrupted, the player half-leaves the game then sba are checked in a loop, then the player who had priority gets priority again
17:50:05 <b_jonas> or the better way to do this would be: if someone concedes at a time when it's trivially easy to reroll the game to the point when an sba loop ended (so no decisions were announced since that, nobody looked at hidden information that they didn't know yet, nobody generated randomness, there wasn't a large amount of computation or physical activity done, nobody was just about to announce their decision
17:50:11 <b_jonas> after a lot of thinking etc) then the decision is interrupted, the game is rolled back to right after the sba loop, then the sba are rechecked in a loop (so that the player who conceded can leave the game).
17:54:18 <b_jonas> another modification could be that if a player who half-left the game needs to make a decision, then the steward that makes the decision instead of them isn't necesarily the next player in turn order, but the next player in turn order who is their teammate and hasn't half-left the game, and if there's no such player, then the steward is the next player in turn order who hasn't left the game
17:55:00 <b_jonas> this is a minimal change but would read better
18:36:53 <esolangs> [[4DChess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94420&oldid=78601 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2909) Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
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