←2022-04-09 2022-04-10 2022-04-11→ ↑2022 ↑all
00:00:26 <esolangs> [[PrettyPrint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94643&oldid=94642 * B jonas * (+8) page number
00:00:47 <b_jonas> ok done
00:01:22 <b_jonas> we really should have IOCCC and Sigbovik categories on the wiki
00:01:40 <b_jonas> but I don't dare to create them after what you said to me when I created the ICFP one
00:01:48 <b_jonas> so I leave this to the wiki admins
00:02:00 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK really, it's all uppercase
00:13:13 <int-e> Btw if anyone wants to try for a smaller bitgrid GoL unit cell, one obvious (but messy) idea is to route the result *through* the circuit that computes it rather than around id.
00:13:59 <int-e> (since the circuit propagates stuff from left to right, one can propagate something else from right to left at the same time)
00:16:02 <int-e> Notation is still a big issue :)
00:16:52 <b_jonas> no, sorry, making smaller game of life circuits in bitgrid is not among my life goals, not even after I wrote game of life implementations in perl and J and C
00:17:23 <b_jonas> and the perl one is actually an interesting one
00:17:51 <int-e> Just putting it out there because I'm not going to do it either ;)
00:18:22 <b_jonas> (the J one is somewhat golfy but doesn't really have anything special in it; the C one was like twentysomething years ago and wasn't trying to be optimized or anything)
00:23:04 <int-e> I'm happy with the sorting network based evaluation function anyway... it's really about routing the signal... but that's more tedious than interesting.
00:23:07 <zzo38> Is there a specification for fragment identifiers in a URL for referencing specific tables and specific rows of tables in a SQLite database?
00:27:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: "choose to attack with normal mode or disabling mode" => why do you need that? you can just say "may choose a creature an opponent controls" or whatever, and then refer to "if you did", like in the template of Gaze of Pain.
00:27:56 <b_jonas> that template is not very common, because most of the time the ability just automatically does nothing when it can't find the creature you chose, but still
00:28:40 <b_jonas> `? pdf
00:28:42 <HackEso> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
00:28:49 <b_jonas> I wonder if I should put the page number thing there
00:29:24 <zzo38> That could work, although still it will need to remember and that others can refer to it too, and I am unsure if the creature that you choose should now be considered to be engaged in combat. Either way, it affects other rules having to do with combat, too.
00:29:53 <zzo38> (such as which declarations of blockers are legal, and what happens during the combat damage step)
00:31:04 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94644&oldid=94633 * Cube26 * (+180)
00:33:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: for Gaze of Pain, it's still in combat. I don't know of a card with an "attack mode" that then removes it from combat, normally you'd just use a tap ability instead.
00:34:31 <b_jonas> you could have an attack mode or an optional attack cost that removes the attacker from combat, but that would be a bit unexpected, and I'm not sure why you'd want to use that instead of a tap ability
00:34:57 <b_jonas> I mean maybe you really want the ability to be unusable if the creature can't attack
00:35:42 <zzo38> It isn't the attacking creature I mean, but the opposing creature that you are trying to affect with your attack (which might not necessarily be a creature by the time it is affected, but usually it is).
00:35:56 <b_jonas> and I guess you can have a variant where you can bounce the creature as a cost for your effect after it attacks
00:36:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, how would that work exactly then? what would be the full text?
00:37:32 <b_jonas> I assume you don't just want a Trap Runner
00:38:08 <b_jonas> or a Curtain of Light
00:38:14 <zzo38> It would have to be added to the rules; it is not a activated or triggered ability.
00:39:07 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94645&oldid=94644 * Cube26 * (+83)
00:39:19 <b_jonas> ok, but what specifically?
00:39:30 <b_jonas> I assume it's also not an (additional) attack cost
00:41:20 <b_jonas> I mean an attack cost like Brainwash ... by the way it's weird that that ability doesn't also exist in blue
00:43:58 <b_jonas> blue can add an upkeep cost, or keep the creature from untapping (and possibly also tap it), and variations on that
00:44:04 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94646&oldid=94645 * Cube26 * (+408)
00:45:26 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if Thirst could be printed for 1U these days, or for U if it doesn't tap the creature
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00:47:11 <b_jonas> Take into Custody is a recent card that gives an idea of how you could price this these days
00:47:44 <zzo38> You would choose what creature (maybe it should be considered to be attacking that creature in disabling mode, instead of attacking a player). That creature cannot block unless something else blocks the attacking creature. During the combat damage step, if it is still in combat in this way, and the attack is not blocked, when it would assign the damage, instead stuns the target; power is ignored.
00:48:37 <zzo38> If an object stuns a permanent, then that permanent is tapped, and until its controllers cleanup step, cannot be untapped during the untap step, nor attack or block or use any activated abilities. A permanent with protection from the object stunning it is not affected.
00:49:12 <zzo38> If it is blocked, then damage should be assigned normally but also stuns each creature it assigns damage to; or, maybe the effect should be different in this case.
00:49:29 <b_jonas> either it's too late or you're phrasing that weird
00:49:38 <b_jonas> or I'm missing some context
00:50:02 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94648&oldid=94647 * Cube26 * (+5) More breaks between sentences
00:50:50 <zzo38> Yes, maybe. Or maybe I am unclear.
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01:00:39 <b_jonas> so this is an evasoin ability on your attacking creature, and it would place a weird blocking restriction that has to look at the whole blocking assignment, sort of like the "this creature can't block alone" or "this creature can't be blocked by more than one creature" or menace?
01:01:36 <b_jonas> and then after that evasion ability, if the creature remains unblocked, it does something with the same creature of the opponent that you chose earlier for the evasion?
01:02:08 <b_jonas> and the evasion is not stopped by protection but you want the stun to stop it?
01:02:14 <b_jonas> this sounds way too complicated for its own good
01:02:56 <b_jonas> ok, I admit it's not as crazy as banding
01:06:38 <b_jonas> hmm, we need a parody 5-cycle of legendary lands from Legends with “Blue legends lose banding and all ‘bands with other’ abilities.”
01:08:28 <zzo38> I mean that the creature being disabled cannot block anything unless the attacking creature that is trying to disable it is blocked by a different creature.
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01:09:23 <zzo38> And the creature using disabling attack mode will not deal any damage, since it does something else during the combat damage step instead (twice if it has double strike, although this is redundant unless it is blocked).
01:12:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that first part sounds like a complex restriction on the blocking assignment. it can't just be a trigger, because it's too late after the blocking assignments (unless you want something like banding that changes the blocking assignment after the fact) and too early before that.
01:12:24 <b_jonas> I still think all this together is too complicated, but you may save parts of it
01:13:04 <b_jonas> just the blocking restriction could work, but you're trying to add too many things after that
01:14:43 <b_jonas> or if you want to add more, then use something simpler than that blocking restriction, like you choose a blocker after the assignment and remove it from combat and detain it or something
01:15:43 <b_jonas> and don't try to add a clause where protection stops half of your ability but not the whole thing, either make it targeting so protection blocks it (and other abiligies that affect targeting find it too) or just don't have protection care about it
01:16:31 <zzo38> Like I said, it is meant to be a extra rule which is in effect if the creature has the static ability "disable"; it is not a triggered or activated ability. But, yes, it could be changed to work differently, anyways.
01:17:01 <b_jonas> or if you want protection to specifically affect something that isn't a target, you can make it a damage with a weird effect like wither/infect, or a damage trigger, or a replacement ability on damage
01:18:40 -!- Soni has changed nick to QueerDOVengeance.
01:20:22 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94651&oldid=94650 * Cube26 * (+510)
01:20:41 <zzo38> I had thought of that too, but there are some reasons why it will not work, such as if the power is zero, or if you are trying to stun a permanent that is not a creature or planeswalker, etc. It is not working like damage, I think. (I had also made up a "harmless" keyword ability which does affect damage, but it is used on different cards and has a different effect; but, that one is like wither, etc.)
01:20:43 <b_jonas> like “If ~ would deal combat damage to a player, you may prevent that damage and <do something else>.”
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01:23:05 <zzo38> Like I said, I didn't really like that and instead tried to make it a part of the rules (which would allow the card to have more abilities too; otherwise they won't fit).
01:26:49 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94654&oldid=94653 * Cube26 * (+7)
01:26:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can trigger on "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked", that template exists in several cards, if you're sure you want it to work even if the power is zero. It's not common, because making it deliberately not work when no damage is dealt is usually a better choice for card design.
01:27:06 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94655&oldid=94654 * Cube26 * (-14)
01:27:39 <b_jonas> Zealot il-Vec is probably a good example
01:28:15 <zzo38> (Also, I don't hate banding, either.)
01:28:28 <zzo38> Yes, although I was not asking about templating, anyways.
01:28:39 <b_jonas> hey, I don't hate banding, I like banding, I'm just saying it's complicated
01:29:52 <b_jonas> I have used banding because there wasn't a simlar but simpler ability printed later that could replace it when I built the deck
01:30:54 <b_jonas> It's nice to be able to have a cheap creature that I can sacrifice (in the non-comprules sense) to save its comrade by taking combat damage from it, and have this on a simple 1/1 for W creature
01:31:17 <b_jonas> banding comes with additional rules bagage cover that, but I don't have a 1/1 for W creature that does just that
01:32:33 <b_jonas> sure, if that rules baggage is there then I will use it to my advantage, like I'll use it as a steed bird to carry a soldier to block a flying creature or whatever
01:33:05 <b_jonas> but it was still a mistake to have these in such a complex ability
01:33:26 <b_jonas> print steed birds, or creatures that can redirect damage to itself when it would be dealt to their comrades, etc
01:34:36 <zzo38> I disagree. I like the banding how it is, except to change the "bands with other" rule slightly, so that a creature with "bands with other [quality]" does not need to itself be [quality] for the ability to work.
01:34:52 <b_jonas> they did change the "bands with other" in a comp rules patch
01:34:56 <b_jonas> I think exactly that way
01:35:02 <b_jonas> ah no
01:35:08 <b_jonas> sorry, I misunderstood you
01:35:35 <b_jonas> they changed it so that "bands with other cats" now doesn't require that the other cat also has "bands with other cat" to be able to band with it
01:36:06 <b_jonas> this effectively made the "bands with other" abilities stronger, but nobody cares because the cards that refer to "bands with other" are so weak and new ones won't be printed
01:36:37 <b_jonas> "bands with other" probably just shouldn't have existed in first place, but it's too late, and admittedly that was in the early days of magic
01:36:53 <zzo38> Yes, that is how they changed it. My own change is a more minor change.
01:37:20 <b_jonas> the sixth edition rules overhaul had a chance to replace how banding works with something saner, but that chance was missed, and it's too late to change it now
01:38:04 <b_jonas> although how excatly it interacts with the damage assignment order could have been specified better when the damage assignment order was new
01:38:55 <zzo38> How I should think that disable should interact with banding is: Rule 702.22d applies; all creatures in the band must attack the same thing. (This mostly useful to absorb damage in case it is blocked, but might also be able to use multi attack modes in one band if opponent controls a permanent that is both a creature and a planeswalker.)
01:40:00 <zzo38> I like banding the way it is because I am nobody, I suppose.
01:41:28 <b_jonas> as for damage assignment order (unrelated to banding), I assume you heard that unofficial proposal to change the rules so that you are allowed to assign non-lethal damage to more than one creature, all that's required is that all creatures that you assign lethal damage to precede the ones that you assign non-lethal damage to in the damage assignment order. (this is well-formed in that there's always at
01:41:34 <b_jonas> least one valid damage assignment, namely assigning all damage from every combatant to the first creature in the damage assignment order for that creature.)
01:42:24 <b_jonas> this also interacts nicely with deathtouch
01:43:27 <zzo38> I had not heard of that, although it will work. But, I think that it is OK the way that it is (and the way that my "harmless" ability works, I had assumed the existing rules; in this case it is possible to assign lethal damage to a creature without having any effect on that creature).
01:44:52 <zzo38> The proposal is OK but I think that it is not worth changing it at this time; if they did that at first then it would be OK, though.
01:45:09 <zzo38> (The other option would be to use a damage prevention step like the older rules do.)
01:53:26 <zzo38> (Although, a damage prevention step would be more complicated to implement with the modern kind of rules; it won't work very well.)
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04:11:24 <esolangs> [[Unnecessarily Large HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94677&oldid=94514 * Lemonz * (-168)
05:37:00 <zzo38> Would inventing a custom set of Magic: the Gathering cards with some ideas based on some of the unusual ideas of esoteric programming languages?
05:42:24 <zzo38> The rules of Magic: the Gathering that I do not like are the ones that seem klugy and mismatching, such as double face permanents cannot be turned face down, creatures cannot be attached to anything, and the rule that the legendary supertype has a different meaning (that does not match) if it is a permanent or not. (The contrast is ongoing; there are some similar state-based actions, that would make sense to suppress in this way.)
05:43:04 <zzo38> (In some cases they have improved them, such as removing the planeswalker redirection rule which is no good, so it is good that they had removed that rule.)
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07:38:52 <esolangs> [[255]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94678&oldid=94638 * AceKiron * (+985) Added the popular problem: 99 bottles of beer.
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10:50:41 <esolangs> [[SOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94679&oldid=94199 * Celtschk * (+18) Linked name to user page
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13:35:53 <b_jonas> tom7's full video for his SIGBOVIK 2022 project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcJSW7Rprio
13:39:35 <river> oh suckerpinch is tom7
13:39:45 <b_jonas> yes
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14:20:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lynx * New user account
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14:44:13 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94683&oldid=84866 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* External resources */ Add categories
14:45:36 <Corbin> Hm. I hate to tell Andrew, but I think De Bruijn indices might have shown up before 2021.
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17:41:06 <b_jonas> `? bond
17:41:08 <b_jonas> ~? james bond
17:41:09 <HackEso> bond? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:41:26 <b_jonas> `? james bond
17:41:28 <HackEso> james bond? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:52:23 <b_jonas> this veal dish was too spicy-hot for my taste
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19:21:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lemon Machine * New user account
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20:11:41 <zzo38> I think that MIME and UTI both have some problem for the identification of file types, which is why I wanted to make up my own one, attempting to fix it. (Although, maybe you also have some ideas for improvement, too.) There will just be the set of types which you can have more than one, and optional parameters (such as code page). For example, "zip:epub" and "text:json" are possible (but can be in any order; "json:text" is same as "tex
20:13:06 <zzo38> (You can also more easily handle polyglot files in this way, and may sometimes be able to display unrecognized formats, etc.)
20:16:13 <zzo38> (Although, maybe you might want to be able to specify contained formats, e.g. "zip<html>:epub", or "ogg<vorbis;theora>", etc. Or maybe some other way; I don't know)
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22:40:55 <zzo38> Why is the bell not as loud as it was before, even though the other things are still loud?
22:55:25 <int-e> maybe you're striking it more softly than usual
22:57:14 <zzo38> No, I mean the bell in the computer; it doesn't have the indication how hard it is struck
23:07:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94685&oldid=72928 * Robolta * (+126) Leaving a note
23:07:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94686&oldid=94685 * Robolta * (-8) Fixing bottom line
23:13:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:End]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=94687 * Robolta * (+223) Created page with "10-04-2022 Any chance you could give more details? Perhaps information about how you suspect it may work or maybe minor information you didn't think to include originally? Mil..."
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23:36:44 <esolangs> [[IGNORED]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94690&oldid=94023 * WhoeverKnew123 * (+128)
23:37:20 <esolangs> [[IGNORED]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94691&oldid=94690 * WhoeverKnew123 * (+11)
23:37:44 <esolangs> [[IGNORED]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94692&oldid=94691 * WhoeverKnew123 * (+1)
23:43:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94693&oldid=94416 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+280) Please
23:51:02 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=94694&oldid=94689 * Cube26 * (+1035)
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