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01:13:35 <esolangs> [[Turimg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97098 * Zip * (+4273) Created page with "Turimg is a minimalist language, meant to directly parallel how [[Turing machine]]s work. = Environment = The environment of Turimg consists of an infinitely long tape, with..."
01:21:20 <esolangs> [[Turimg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97099&oldid=97098 * Zip * (+102)
01:36:17 <esolangs> [[Dimensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97100&oldid=97094 * NutronStar45 * (+42)
01:52:19 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97101&oldid=95519 * NutronStar45 * (+4)
01:53:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97102&oldid=96609 * NutronStar45 * (+4)
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03:10:03 <esolangs> [[CheB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97103&oldid=96558 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ Add category
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05:23:23 <esolangs> [[Minimal assembly language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97104&oldid=97095 * Peter * (+15) /* Labels */
05:24:33 <esolangs> [[MASM Bitwise not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97105&oldid=96619 * Peter * (+69)
05:24:46 <esolangs> [[MASM Bitwise and]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97106&oldid=96620 * Peter * (+69) /* main.masm */
05:24:57 <esolangs> [[MASM Bitwise or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97107&oldid=96622 * Peter * (+69) /* main.masm */
05:25:13 <esolangs> [[MASM Bitwise nor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97108&oldid=96626 * Peter * (+69) /* main.masm */
05:25:24 <esolangs> [[MASM Bitwise xnor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97109&oldid=96636 * Peter * (+69) /* main.masm */
05:25:34 <esolangs> [[MASM Bitwise xor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97110&oldid=96637 * Peter * (+69) /* main.masm */
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08:52:33 <esolangs> [[SKNPR Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97111 * Hakerh400 * (+1142) +[[SKNPR Calculus]]
08:53:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97112&oldid=97102 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[SKNPR Calculus]]
08:53:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97113&oldid=95844 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[SKNPR Calculus]]
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11:24:15 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97114&oldid=97074 * Olus2000 * (-70) /* Code examples */ corrected info on output interpretation
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12:08:15 <HackEso> 1/1:535) <ais523> isn't a neutrino detector just a large vat of washing-up liquid with a bit of machinery attached? \ 1011) <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
12:53:44 <esolangs> [[ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97115&oldid=86397 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+167) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ISEW2C programming language on GitHub.
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13:08:29 <esolangs> [[ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97116&oldid=97115 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+581) Reformatted the command list, amended some orthographic mistakes, and inserted further elucidations concerning the commands.
13:10:45 <esolangs> [[ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97117&oldid=97116 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+224) Introduced an examples section, containing two initial members.
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15:36:45 <esolangs> [[Blackbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97118&oldid=90482 * CenTdemeern1 * (+9) Add WIP
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21:09:33 <zzo38> I notice something unusual in the hard drive temperature log: the log up to about an hour ago have "?" for about half of the values (usually, but not always, alternating between "?" and numbers)
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21:24:52 <zzo38> Is it possible to set up a computer so that the same data is written to both a spinning hard drive and to a SSD hard drive at the same time?
21:34:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, you could mirror a file system between both, but that's probably only worth if you read the data much more often than write; you can also set up a file system so that it's mainly on the spinny disk, but cached (either just for reading, or write-behind) to the SSD, and setting that up with read-only caching is probably almost always better than mirroring the whole thing
21:35:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: but confusingly there are like two or three different mechanisms for both just in software on Linux, not counting solutions helped in hardware
21:35:38 <b_jonas> and I don't quite understand how they work and how they differ. I think some of them are higher vs lower level solutions, some are just older mechanisms
21:36:35 <b_jonas> I was kind of planning to set up a read cache thing, and possibly even a setup where I mirror some important data between two hard disks, AND cache that and more data on an SSD,
21:37:42 <b_jonas> but so far I haven't set it up. I kind of got scared away by the parts where it seems like I can't easily set it up such that I can at least easily read the data with a rescue disk from just the hard disk partition file system without having the software modules that handles the caching and mirroring
21:38:08 <b_jonas> it's probably possible to set it up correctly but so far I haven't had much need for fast disk access so I haven't bothered
21:38:30 <b_jonas> at least I have bought an SSD before their price spiked, so in that sense I'm future proof – if only I had bought a video card too
21:39:13 <b_jonas> part of the problem is of course that you can do the setup incorrectly and lose data because of that even when you hadn't lost that data if you just use one spinny disk file system with no complications
21:41:08 <b_jonas> that said, according to what I heard from people who do need to store lots of data and access it fast, this kind of thing is quite stable and Linux is suitable for it
21:42:22 <b_jonas> oh yeah, part of the problem with me setting it up was that all the cheap hard disks (including the ones I bought, all three brands) are now SMR, controlled purely by the firmware, with the SMR control not exposed to the OS such that the OS could control it if it wanted
21:43:40 <b_jonas> whcih is evil in itself and I hope it will change, but it can't really because if there are no disks that at least have an optional OS-controlled SMR mode then the kernel and file system developers can't test software SMR handling in realistic ways for future cheap drives
21:44:23 <b_jonas> it's the same stupid thing as back when all solid state pendrives tried to fake not being a solid state pendrive and didn't give the OS control over them, such as discarding blocks or FLUSHING
21:45:43 <b_jonas> anyway, the problem is that the firmware controlled SMR drive hits a state where all the non-SMR parts are full and it needs to write, it can reputedly lock up in a rearranging busy state for a too long time, at which point the software raid will (reasonably) think that the disk is dead and remove it from the raid array, and that's why I didn't set up mirroring
21:46:01 <zzo38> I do want to set it up so that if either one fails then the data is still readable from the other one, though. (even if that requires changing one of the configuration files using a live CD before the hard disk will boot)
21:46:08 <zzo38> What does "SMR" means?
21:46:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: the shingled thing, where there are short sequences of cylinders that can only be written in a certain direction, because writing one cylinder clobbers the data in the next cylinder (but not in the previous cylinder)
21:47:56 <b_jonas> IIUC the physical mechanism is that the write head has to write a wider track than the read head can read, so if the tracks as written overlap you can still read the early edge of the earlier track even though most of the width of the track is overwritten by the later cylinder
21:49:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can set it up so that if one fails it's readable from the other. what may be hard is to set it up so that it's readable from one drive without the kernel module (and possibly user-space software) that handles the raid
21:49:31 <b_jonas> this may be by design so that you don't accidentally *write* it without raid-compatible software
21:53:36 <zzo38> That makes sense, but possibly file system flags could be used (if the file system supports such flags)? SQLite header already has such a capability, even though it is not currently used. So, I should think that it might be possible to design file systems to support such a thing too, maybe
21:54:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's almost certainly possible to set it up, IIUC for the caching thing you can still mount the spinny disk file system without the software BUT you have to use a loop device with the correct offset, because the partition will have a header before the real file system that you have to skip
21:54:52 <b_jonas> I don't know about with raid mirroring
21:55:04 <b_jonas> perhaps someone else on IRC knows
21:56:37 <b_jonas> that said, these days even linux rescue disks will have llvm so it's probaly not actually a problem assuming you're using linux
21:59:49 <sprout> I never was much of a hardware man
22:00:07 <b_jonas> as far as I can see this is a software thing. should be anyway.
22:01:01 <sprout> that's how much of not a hardware man I am
22:02:43 <b_jonas> I mean I'm not saying that there shouldn't be raid acceleration hardware on some motherboards, but those are relevant for setups with parity, not with the raid 1 setups that we're talking about here. And while I think it's silly to advertise every piece of computer hardware as "gaming", even the hardware raid motherboards, that's besides the point here.
22:05:01 <sprout> sure, it's just that you're getting hardware to work by messing with the software
22:05:26 <sprout> cannot say I never did that. but these days certainly I try to avoid all that
22:06:20 <sprout> why not buy a raid solution with a cache? too costly?
22:14:54 <fizzie> I have a very "asynchronous" setup here where there's a mirrored RAID setup with two larger spinny drives, and one significantly smaller SSD. A bunch bulky and/or rarely accessed data is on the spinny side, but the home directory itself is on the SSD, and to guard against data loss from SSD failure I just have it back up the SSD contents nightly to the spinny disks.
22:15:31 <fizzie> Always keep thinking I should replace it with something a bit more "online", like just using the SSD as a block device cache with LVM, or something. So that it'd be all in sync automatically, and also I wouldn't have to organize what goes where by hand. But never seem to get around to figuring that out.
22:19:18 <fizzie> I used to buy WD "Red" drives, and they did a thing where they had both SMR models (WD40EFAX) and CMR models (WD40EFRX) but with the exact same branding, and I bought one of the CMR models from Amazon, and they sent me the SMR one, so I returned it for a replacement, and I'll be darned if they didn't send me _another_ SMR one.
22:20:17 <fizzie> Since then they've changed the branding of the CMR drives from "WD Red" to "WD Red Plus", which I kind of would hope would make that less of an issue.
22:21:33 <fizzie> https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/ "We want to thank our customers and partners for your feedback --"
22:21:36 <fizzie> That's public relations code for "we received an incredible amount of bad press about this".
22:26:50 <b_jonas> sprout: wait, how do you avoid "getting hardware to work by messing with software"? that sounds so general there's no way you can avoid it all
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22:36:02 <b_jonas> the four disks that I bought with this computer are: WD WD40EZAZ Blue, 2× Toshiba HDWD240UZSVA P300, Seagate ST4000DM004. all four SMR, all four 4 TB capacity.
22:36:24 <sprout> b_jonas: no idea. but I personally just push buttons on the laptops I buy and try to avoid all hardware settings
22:40:59 <zzo38> If I have "tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors" but also have -v (verbose mode), can I see what the errors are (e.g. by logging them)?
22:42:03 <sprout> https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/tar.1.html
22:43:09 <zzo38> I do have the man page on my computer and I have read it
22:44:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably just log the whole stderr of tar in that case, and grep for errors
22:44:24 <fizzie> I have a Seagate ST4000DM000, which I believe is old enough that it was still CMR, and then to pair up with it (when another old drive gave up) I got a Seagate ST4000VN008 (one of those IronWolf "NAS" drives), which is CMR as well.
22:44:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: a typical error is chmod or chown failing on a FAT partition, so if you are extracting to a FAT partition and running tar as root (which makes it chmod by default), then try tell it --no-same-permissions --no-same-owner
22:45:40 <b_jonas> another typical error is adding files and one of the file names that you tell it is a nonexistent file
22:46:10 <fizzie> I do also seem to have a ST4000DM004 as well, in the set of three drives that form the chain of "offsite" backups (one in the computer receiving incremental backups, one on the shelf at home, and one in a bank vault at an undisclosed location), but I think that particular use case works fine with SMR.
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22:46:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh wow, you actually use a bank vault, as opposed to a relative's home?
22:48:15 <fizzie> Well, for now. The banks in, uh, the undisclosed country, have been aggressively turning down those services for some reason. But it hasn't hit the particular location ours is in yet.
22:49:25 <fizzie> To be clear, it's like a 5cm by 25cm by 32cm locker in a glorified filing cabinet of sorts, but at least that cabinet is _inside_ a vault with an impressive door.
22:50:10 <fizzie> There's a copy of the wiki in there too, although it's something like two years old at this point, since during the pandemic I haven't been traveling to where it is.
22:50:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I know, but I know how expensive bank lockers are.
22:50:45 <b_jonas> the monthly fee is like crazy. it can be worth if you're storing precious metal, but for a hard disk less so
22:51:00 <zzo38> I store backups on DVDs in a cupboard in the basement.
22:51:02 <fizzie> Well, this particular one costs something like 5€/month, and is even mostly covered by a loyalty scheme bonus credit system.
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22:51:39 <fizzie> I imagine the low prices have something to do with why banks are no longer offering that.
22:53:11 <fizzie> If/when we do have to give it up, I've been considering just keeping the "offsite" drive at the office instead.
22:55:10 <zzo38> I am just splitting the backups manually, now. I wrote on a paper, which directories are backup in which file. For now I am writing them to a USB flash drive, and will later record them on a DVD. (Due to the hard drive keeping resetting, I will not record them from the hard drive directly to DVDs.)
23:07:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: office can work too if a relative isn't available, sure
23:08:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: my bkpprog split does allow splitting manually, or a combination where you split manually but then it splits each manual group to archives based on file sizes
23:08:31 <b_jonas> I do use the partial manual splitting actually
23:09:40 <b_jonas> and I keep the bkpplan file next to the backups, or each disk with the backups, since that's an index that tells which directory is in which archive chunk
23:37:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97119 * CappyIsCrappy * (+72) Created page with "Brainfry is a '''brainfuck derivative''' made by [[User:CappyIsCrappy]]."