00:37:55 <pgimeno> hm, if I understand the spec correctly, impossible.bf is not a well-defined language
00:38:57 <int-e> . o O ( so it *is* impossible? )
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01:51:28 <esolangs> [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102915&oldid=80772 * Suever * (-9) Update MATL Online URL
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02:33:20 <esolangs> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102916&oldid=50733 * Esolanger12345 * (+18)
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02:54:44 <esolangs> [[Idea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102917&oldid=64753 * Esolanger12345 * (+4)
03:42:44 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102918&oldid=78882 * Esolanger12345 * (+8)
03:43:01 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102919&oldid=102918 * Esolanger12345 * (+10)
03:44:14 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102920&oldid=102919 * Esolanger12345 * (+13)
03:44:40 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102921&oldid=102920 * Esolanger12345 * (-3)
03:46:46 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102922&oldid=102921 * Esolanger12345 * (+22)
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15:36:18 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102923&oldid=102898 * PixelatedStarfish * (+117) /* Libraries */
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16:10:36 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102924&oldid=102923 * PixelatedStarfish * (+701) /* Conditionals and Loops */
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17:32:02 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102925&oldid=102924 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63) /* Notes */
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18:18:10 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102926&oldid=102925 * PixelatedStarfish * (+31) /* Labels and Conditionals */
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18:28:47 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102927&oldid=102926 * PixelatedStarfish * (+503) /* Relations and Logic Gates */
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18:38:01 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102928&oldid=102927 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15) /* Logic and Truth Values */
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18:42:01 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102929&oldid=102928 * PixelatedStarfish * (+277) /* Standard Macros for Truth Values */
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18:48:46 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102930&oldid=102929 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) /* Relational Operators */
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19:46:19 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah, finally... my V4 shapez factory works and has solved a dozen 200/s levels at 60s each at uniform 10x speedup (which is what I reached regularly previously) so far. I'll keep it running to see whether it hits a snag, or needs 70s for some. (I did solve a hundred earlier levels, so it's really up to the buffering part.) I didn't rebuild the upgrade shape stuff though, so the bypass...
19:46:25 <int-e> ...system is largely unused (I'm feeding one bypass with star shapes just to see that it works)
19:47:36 <int-e> (I wrote a small mod which allows me to cheat levels and upgrade shapes... because I didn't want to go through all that again, but I did want to test the early freeplay levels too)
19:50:21 <int-e> Oh yes, it does miss the 60s mark sometimes. I could probably tweak it so it doesn't do that.
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20:38:17 <int-e> b_jonas: anyway, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-balanced-stacker.html is why I got so obsessed with perfectly lining up the outputs of the corner production.
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20:40:13 <int-e> This discovery was a bit of an accident. I wanted to make a binary tree so that the stackers wouldn't buffer anything. That the shapes would line up so nicely was a lucky accident.
20:41:10 <int-e> (Well, originally they only lined up in pairs, but then I realized that if I broke the symmetry for the first splitter, then things would work out perfectly.)
20:44:01 <int-e> > (71*60+7)/59 -- levels 811-869
20:44:13 <int-e> > (61*60+7)/59 -- levels 811-869
20:44:26 <int-e> or at least arithmetic is
21:00:42 <int-e> Well, updated the HTML a bit.
21:11:43 <int-e> Anyway. Glad that this is done... somehow these things always take more time than expected... (I had to fix a couple of bugs too, but there's always tweaking details which can take a lot of time... and of course there's a procrastination element.)
21:12:11 <int-e> Even happier that it actually works the way I hoped!
21:38:55 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't understand, what's this for?
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21:39:44 <b_jonas> ah, for leaving the buffers empty
21:39:49 <b_jonas> so you can produce the new shape faster
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21:44:07 <int-e> clean buffers is I got that virtually zero ramp-up time
21:46:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Forty-Bot * New user account
21:48:31 <int-e> Ah, saving and loading destroys the perfection.
21:48:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102931&oldid=102899 * Forty-Bot * (+136)
21:49:12 <esolangs> [[Emoticon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102932&oldid=75968 * Forty-Bot * (+119) Add link to an interpreter
21:54:18 <int-e> I guess I'll keep it running overnight to verify that it's indeed not happening while running
21:54:27 <b_jonas> can you restore it by cleaning all belts in a large rectangle selection?
21:54:57 <int-e> (cleaning belts also resets splitters)
21:55:32 <int-e> on the wire layer? nah it does nothing there
21:55:53 <int-e> I've never actually tried that on the wire layer
21:56:23 <b_jonas> sorry, that's an esoteric question, but you know
21:57:00 <int-e> yeah I'll do a quick experiment
21:57:22 <b_jonas> if not then you can probably cut and paste at least
21:57:39 <int-e> yeah, though usually you can just cut and replace a single wire
21:58:38 <int-e> So as far as I can tell, it really has no effect while on the wire layer,
21:59:08 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe the internal splitter state (which side next) isn't saved?
22:01:58 <int-e> Ah, you probably had counters where this would be really useful
22:02:21 <b_jonas> I have a reset in logic for the counter
22:02:24 <int-e> I'm doing all the delays with single items on belts.
22:02:40 <b_jonas> need reset for when level shape changes
22:02:56 <int-e> (Which just got destroyed... no wonder the level wasn't being cleared. I did keep my manual control for the buffer in place.)
22:03:01 <int-e> Ah, that makes sense
22:04:36 <int-e> Another nice thing about virtually instantaneous ramp-up is that there's no need to count.
22:05:15 <int-e> because a fixed delay does the trick
22:05:38 <int-e> unless you want to cope with levels between 27 and 811 efficiently... I decided not to try.
22:05:57 <b_jonas> so you implement fixed delay how? long belt?
22:07:07 <int-e> more or less. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-delay-track.png
22:08:09 <b_jonas> not much easier than counting but sure
22:08:11 <int-e> (the stripes are reminders that this is adjustable)
22:08:55 <int-e> it adjusts for changes in speedup... well, between 8-10. Between 10 and about 11.9 things are weird.
22:09:03 <b_jonas> sure, use a half-shape instead of a pigment and use cutters for fine-tuning delay :p
22:09:17 <int-e> Because in that range, belts get faster, but production doesn't.
22:10:12 <int-e> It's really odd. May be different for different versions... I've only used, uh, what is this, 1.5.5?
22:10:41 <int-e> b_jonas: I mean, the splitters *are* counting of course.
22:11:53 <int-e> I just didn't want to think about flip-flops so much. Though I do have a few... both r-s-flip-flops and an edge-triggered memory cell for arbitrary values in a few places.
22:13:28 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-v4-wires.png ...there's lots of space there, and it's mostly actual wires.
22:14:16 <int-e> which isn't saying that it's trivial... but I mostly avoided the need to really squeeze logic into small spaces.
22:15:21 <int-e> another thing that saves mess up is actually winning levels... the statistics gathering resets :-/
22:16:54 <int-e> b_jonas: one of the trickier things to get right in this design is controlling the bypasses (for dealing with empty corners and absent slices)... if you enable them too early, it'll destroy the balance.
22:17:29 <int-e> I actually got it wrong in my first attempt.
22:17:30 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I mean counting the shapes that you get from the factory in some way. might not need flip-flops, you can just let another shape/pigment on a belt for each level shape that passes on one belt with minimal logic, and count the second shape.
22:18:28 <int-e> the thing that most annoyed me about counting is having to split things until the arrival interval is longer than a second
22:19:03 <b_jonas> int-e: no need, you can ignore speed meters and use a storage to count fast
22:19:15 <int-e> that I didn't think of
22:19:47 <int-e> well, now I have no use for it :)
22:20:31 <b_jonas> that's how I count my shapes, though I only count one third of a belt, I split them anyway because I only produce 4 belts and need to flush 12 belts
22:20:46 <b_jonas> (you know, between 10 and 12 belts, but won't bother trying to split 4:11)
22:21:16 <b_jonas> by the way, Mindustry has horrible numbers. everything has weird ratios. you THINK vanilla Factorio is bad, with beacons and everything, but no. Mindustry is WAY worse
22:21:38 <b_jonas> I keep forgetting how many of any machine I need
22:21:53 <int-e> that's one thing that shapez gets mostly right (there's an oddity with the paint mixers)
22:21:59 <b_jonas> incidentally, if you want *good* ratios, the Factorio mod Industrial revolution 2 has really nice round ones
22:22:06 <b_jonas> the designer really payed attention to it
22:22:13 <b_jonas> got them much much better than vanilla
22:22:40 <b_jonas> everything is like 8 miners per belt, 1.5 or 3 or 6 or 12 or 24 of any machine per belt, etc
22:22:49 <int-e> (I've mentioned this before... nominally, 5 paint mixers should fill a belt, but in practice I've seen gaps when doing that. Not that it really matters anymore.)
22:23:23 <int-e> (Because now I need a bit over half a belt worth of paint... it needs to be more to make up for paint loss in switchovers)
22:24:26 <b_jonas> incidentally, have you considered making all 32 quarter shapes (possibly storing in storages), selecting from them and merging them to a belt quickly with like a tree of storages? it seems like it's not worth it but not obviously impossible so it still bugs me
22:25:01 <int-e> I have thought about it.
22:25:34 <int-e> I don't think I can select from 32 different sources in a small enough space...
22:25:55 <b_jonas> Mindustry v6 has 7 types of solids that you mine from the ground, and they have 5 differeng mining speeds
22:26:04 <int-e> It would help with the resource gathering, I suppose.
22:26:15 <b_jonas> and it's not like round ratios anywhere
22:26:25 <int-e> or, well, could help. It's hard to pull that off.
22:27:15 <int-e> Btw, resource gathering. I got really lucky on this map... I could satisfy all stars directly and all wings by cutting and reassembling halves.
22:27:47 <b_jonas> those are then multiplied by one of 5 different speeds depending on the miner that you use and whether you rinse the miners
22:28:05 <b_jonas> int-e: I think I got lucky that way in my longest played map two. not completely sure.
22:28:21 <b_jonas> the map that I started more recently is less lucky
22:28:41 <b_jonas> and then many of the machines have weird ratios
22:28:53 <b_jonas> the belt speeds have weird ratios too
22:29:38 <int-e> start another map, hmm
22:29:54 <b_jonas> not saying I'll complete it
22:29:59 <b_jonas> starting is cheap, you know
22:30:12 <int-e> I cheated for a reason... the early game was instructive the first time but now it looks just tedious
22:30:26 <b_jonas> I actually quite enjoy the early game in shapez.io
22:30:37 <b_jonas> except for one or two levels
22:30:39 <int-e> I did enjoy it the first time
22:30:49 <b_jonas> no, I mean I played through it like 5 times
22:31:02 <int-e> I don't see the appeal.
22:31:18 <b_jonas> well Factorio early game is even better, mind you
22:32:06 <int-e> Now if there was a kind of NG+ where you start out with 100k blueprints... maybe I'd be more interested
22:32:14 <int-e> (I could do that with a mod too)
22:33:03 <b_jonas> yeah, we Factorio players have all sorts of conflicting preferences of what kind of mods we like to make early game better or don't like because they feel cheating
22:33:22 <int-e> my mod does something useful as well... it has a key to pick nice zoom levels (where each block is 3x3 or 6x6 or 12x12 pixels exactly)
22:34:46 <int-e> And a key to clear useless shapes from the hub.
22:35:57 <int-e> The other two things are cheats... advance a level, and add upgrade shapes and blueprints to the hub: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-mumble.js
22:38:13 <int-e> As far as I can make out you get unrestricted access to the game data and APIs. But there's basically no documentation, gotta read the source.
23:17:53 <int-e> Oh well. I'm working around the savegame problem by having a button that can shut down the factory (well, the merging part of it which is the delicate one) and also restart it again.
23:18:09 <int-e> And I have autosaves turned off anyway.
23:28:26 <int-e> so one can now load https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/V4-final.bin and push the start/stop button and it should all work as designed.
23:29:04 <int-e> and to save, push the button again, wait for the level to complete and the belts to clear, then it's safe to save
23:29:32 <int-e> (TODO: figure out which part of the state is lost when saving)
23:29:56 <int-e> though I don't expect to be able to work around it.
23:30:39 <int-e> well, except for that button thing I did.
23:41:25 <esolangs> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102933&oldid=77125 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+203) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Consequential programming language on GitHub and introduced the category tag Implemented.
23:42:13 <esolangs> [[Consequential]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102934&oldid=102933 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+26) Improved the formatting of code snippets in the command table.
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23:47:51 <esolangs> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102935&oldid=102934 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+650) Introduced an example section with two initial members.