←2022-09-04 2022-09-05 2022-09-06→ ↑2022 ↑all
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00:24:17 <esolangs> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102936&oldid=102880 * Salpynx * (-60) /* 2022 */ {{fact}}
00:35:49 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102937&oldid=102930 * PixelatedStarfish * (+272) /* Sources */
00:36:09 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102938&oldid=102937 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Sources */
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00:43:44 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102939&oldid=102938 * PixelatedStarfish * (+50) /* Token */
00:47:14 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102940&oldid=102939 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Relational Operators */
01:31:04 <zzo38> Is there a function in GNU C to retrieve the cookie value that has been passed to fopencookie?
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08:28:31 <int-e> b_jonas: FWIW, after some experiments it seems pretty clear what state isn't saved: Any items that are inside a production building (I've tested cutter, stacker, rotator (!), and color mixer) are lost when reloading. (Thanks to cheating I have a level 27 savegame at 1x speedup, which makes testing this quite easy.) Interestingly, the internal state of splitters *is* saved, and extractor progress...
08:28:37 <int-e> ...(time left until next item) is also saved.
08:29:37 <int-e> Which also means that my workaround (clearing the factories of items before saving) is pretty much the right thing to do.
08:38:23 <int-e> items buffered inside splitters are lost though. The only type of buffer that seems to be saved is the output buffer of filters
08:39:47 <int-e> (both outputs)
08:51:03 <int-e> Hmm, no, I was wrong... even splitters and/or mergers lose items... and that's without buffering. I guess their "processing" window is rather short so it doesn't happen all the time. So the fact that their internal bit (which side next) is saved is actually a bit surprising :P
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09:38:41 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh I also finally understood why it makes no real difference whether you saturate 12 belts or 16 at the hub, as long as it's enough to deliver 200/s... it's rather unintuitive to me, but the math does work out that way if you want to reliably win without making assumptions about the offset of the 10s window.
09:42:51 <int-e> (I've also finally realized how to divide by 3 cheaply)
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09:47:29 <wib_jonas> int-e: saves lose items inside certain buildings. I see.
09:50:14 <wib_jonas> Factorio is much more careful about saves because of network multiplayer. Clients have the whole game state and repeat most computations parallel to the server, mostly so that the graphics can show an up to date state better. When a client starts up, its game state gets initialized by the server sending a save. There are still a few things computed
09:50:15 <wib_jonas> only on the server. Mods need to be careful about this too or else they can't be used in multiplayer, and multiplayer is popular enough (plus good advertising for mods) that most mods want to work in multiplayer.
09:52:38 <wib_jonas> As for shapez.io I didn't really encounter these problems, except that one time in the rocket factory. I mostly built stuff robust enough, even when it cost optimizations, that I didn't notice when anything changed from a save. My shapez.io and factorio builds reflect my general programming style.
09:53:21 <wib_jonas> Given what you say though, it's possible that the museum of freeplay shapes could have lost a shape from a save-reload at some point.
09:53:43 <wib_jonas> I never tried to count the shapes in the museum and check the tally to the level number.
09:54:33 <int-e> Yeah it wasn't a problem except for my rocket factory (which uses the outputs of a 4-way-cutter in different ways, so different amounts of shapes are lost... eventually unbalancing the thing enough to slow it down)
09:55:35 <int-e> actually the logo factory was also affected by this, but it survived a larger number of load/save cycles without needing help
09:56:21 <int-e> anyway, I could flush belts for those and be happy... it's only noew that I'm really down to cycle-counting (so to speak) that it has become a "real" issue.
09:56:48 <int-e> "real"... in the end it's just a game.
09:56:54 <wib_jonas> I figured that there is also a theoretical but low chance that two adjacent freeplay levels use the same shape, in which case the circuit logic can't detect the leveling. Freeplay shapes have a pretty low entropy, less than 32 bits I think, because they're not uniformly distributed.
09:57:04 <int-e> right
09:57:25 <wib_jonas> Really? I don't think my logo factory was affected, but I guess you could make one that is.
09:57:32 <int-e> I'd have to manually control the delivery mechanism if that happened.
10:01:03 <int-e> oh no, it's the flower shape, because of this part: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-flower-detail.png
10:01:32 <int-e> which again, recombines outputs of a cutter with different intermediate processing steps
10:02:04 <int-e> ironically I can probably fix that in place by replacing the belt by mergers
10:02:16 <int-e> (which have an internal buffer... which can be lost)
10:02:23 <wib_jonas> Hmm.
10:04:16 <wib_jonas> I have parts in my freeplay factory that combine two quarters to opposite corners, but never three. I don't recall the details of how they're built.
10:04:44 <wib_jonas> But if they had locked up during saves that easily I would have noticed and fixed it.
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10:12:27 <int-e> The rocket factory is the most affected. You can actually *see* it in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-rocket-clog.png ... the bottom one is freshly reset; the top one is after one save cycle (maybe two, not sure)... note how the belts from the lower cutter are populated to a different degree
10:12:34 <wib_jonas> In other eso news, I decided that my previous plan about Consumer society will never work.  I wanted only release anything about it after I design the standard library, write a reference interpreter with a certain eso property in its implementation (not fully obfuscated, mind you, still a readable reference interpreter, just doing one weird
10:12:34 <wib_jonas> thing), add optimizations for parts of the standard library (arithmetic mostly) in the implementation, write a pure Consumer society implementation of as much of the standard library as possible (so all of the numerics), implement some of the variants, write multiple example programs, AND write all the documentation. I will never finish that.
10:13:17 <int-e> and in fact, the upper factory has to wait for the left one of those pieces to travel from the cutter to the stacker... and that slows production.
10:13:21 <wib_jonas> So I'll compromise, and started to write the documentation and will release it before everything is done, probably before I release any part of the implementation.
10:13:31 <int-e> I *suspect* that it will never grind to a halt completely
10:14:18 <wib_jonas> I see
10:14:38 <wib_jonas> I still want a large chunk of the documentation written before I release it, so don't hold your breath.
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11:29:36 <esolangs> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102941&oldid=81323 * Xyzzy * (+442) /* Examples */
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12:42:38 <Nick> Hello!
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13:48:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PotatoeCat * New user account
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13:51:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102942&oldid=102931 * PotatoeCat * (+128) /* Introductions */
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17:21:52 <b_jonas> int-e: ah no, I've been careful with how I make the diagonal two quarter shapes. https://i.stack.imgur.com/A435z.jpg I split one output of the quad-cutter and glue the two split quarters. that won't lock up.
17:22:55 <b_jonas> takes a bit more space than rotating and gluing two outputs admittedly
17:23:10 <int-e> I see
17:24:37 <b_jonas> that's after painting btw, I just happened to take the screenshot when the output was to be gray
17:27:00 <b_jonas> here's a three-quarter in the logo factory: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0tdxe.jpg
17:27:28 <b_jonas> that one is partially locked up
17:27:29 <b_jonas> oops
17:27:43 <b_jonas> you can see that some of the belts are mostly empty
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17:28:55 <b_jonas> I should fix that if I get back to this save
17:29:22 <int-e> not sure... there's always the phenomenon that the first factories in the lines are filled up (because otherwise the splitter won't distribute enough items to the right... but I guess that should also be true for the 6th out of the 8.
17:29:57 <b_jonas> yeah
17:30:07 <b_jonas> splitters are half-half, not priority
17:30:16 <b_jonas> probably still produces at full speed
17:30:41 <int-e> I do think that I understand splitters quite well at this point :)
17:30:58 <b_jonas> heh
17:31:37 <int-e> hmm won't you have to cut this thing apart again down the road?
17:32:07 <b_jonas> yes, after stacking. one quarter is support for a floating part.
17:32:41 <int-e> ah, right.
17:33:55 <int-e> Hmm, funny. This is doing basically the same thing as https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-flower-detail.png
17:34:19 <int-e> your's a bit more compact
17:35:34 <b_jonas> how do you know if it's more compact? you don't see the rest of the factory. it's big.
17:35:42 <b_jonas> oh well
17:36:00 <int-e> No, I mean this detail does the same operation
17:36:50 <int-e> (if one of use rotates the input piece by 180 degrees, the outputs will be the same)
17:38:00 <int-e> it would be interesting to see what's inside your tunnels :/
17:38:43 <int-e> because the way I understand it currently, these are what should be getting clogged up in your thing
17:39:14 <int-e> (tunnels *don't* lose items when saving)
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17:45:08 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102943&oldid=102940 * PixelatedStarfish * (+96)
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17:48:56 <esolangs> [[Bellbase]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102944 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) Created page with "[[Bunnybell]] rename"
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17:56:11 <b_jonas> "(tunnels *don't* lose items when saving)" => no surprise. in games like this, people sometimes use tunnels instead of long straight belts, so that less graphics has to be drawn
17:56:24 <b_jonas> so it would be very annoying if tunnels lost shapes
17:57:08 <b_jonas> also sometimes people use tunnels for belt weaving on a long distance too
17:57:20 <b_jonas> it doesn't happen too often in shapez.io because of the storage exploit
17:57:28 <b_jonas> but can still happen
17:57:33 <int-e> b_jonas: they might still use a few at transition points... but I have not caught the game in doing that
17:57:39 <b_jonas> I only have some short sections of belt weaving at a chokepoint
17:57:53 <b_jonas> well sure, there will be some belts, so not all shapes are lost
17:58:01 <int-e> I have *not* tested this for the storage.
17:58:04 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe later.
17:58:05 <b_jonas> oh, you mean "lose a few at transition points"
17:58:17 <int-e> oops, yes I do
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21:43:05 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102945&oldid=102887 * Ilikecreepers * (+271) /* the complcated stuff */
21:46:23 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102946&oldid=102945 * Ilikecreepers * (+129) /* the complcated stuff */
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