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01:06:36 <zzo38> A feature I consider harmful in programming languages is a Unicode string type. It tends to be misused in API specifications (and it is sometimes the case even for programming language that do not have a Unicode string type, unfortunately). A feature such as GOTO is not harmful; it is helpful, and you do not have to use it if you do not want to, and even if you do, it doesn't affect interfaces.
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01:55:21 <esolangs> [[Bitflipper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105201&oldid=94152 * Dtp09 * (+1319)
01:56:08 <esolangs> [[Bitflipper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105202&oldid=105201 * Dtp09 * (-2) /* Interpreters */
01:57:23 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105203&oldid=103604 * Dtp09 * (+23)
01:57:50 <esolangs> [[Drawfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105204&oldid=103606 * Dtp09 * (-38)
01:58:10 <esolangs> [[Drawfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105205&oldid=105204 * Dtp09 * (-8)
02:00:06 <esolangs> [[Bitflipper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105206&oldid=105202 * Dtp09 * (-14) /* Truth Machine */
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02:02:12 <esolangs> [[WholesomeFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105207&oldid=101942 * Dtp09 * (-557)
02:02:49 <esolangs> [[STACKIE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=105208 * Monochromeninja * (+8936) created
02:08:38 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105209&oldid=105203 * Dtp09 * (+63)
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02:17:28 <masterbuilder> zzo38: Why do you consider Unicode string types harmful?
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03:26:30 <zzo38> Because libraries tend to misuse them in the interfaces they expose.
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06:41:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Xaxa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=105211 * PkmnQ * (+99) Created page with "What would `-^` do? --~~~~"
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07:27:33 <esolangs> [[Tile/Textile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=105212 * Dtp09 * (+4822) Created page with "'''Textile''' is an attempt at a written form of Tile created by [[User:Dtp09]] on December 9th, 2022. It's name is a portmanteau of the words "Text" and "Tile", which is exactly what it is. A text representation of Tile. Textile uses an assembly-like syntax, and wa
07:28:17 <esolangs> [[Tile/Textile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105213&oldid=105212 * Dtp09 * (+0)
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09:27:32 <esolangs> [[Gar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=105214 * Masalt * (+289) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{Stub}} :''The language '''gar''' is lowercased, except at the start of a sentence.'' ""Gar"" is an [[esoteric programming language]] invented by [[User:masalt]]. ==[[Popular problem|Examples]]== ===[[Fibonacci sequence|Fibonacci Sequence]]=== > > { % :
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09:30:53 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105215&oldid=105214 * Masalt * (+12) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
09:31:57 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105216&oldid=105215 * Masalt * (+2)
09:35:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105217&oldid=104931 * Andor ch * (+357)
09:39:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Sonfic .png]]"
09:39:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105219&oldid=105217 * Andor ch * (+167)
09:40:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105220&oldid=105219 * Andor ch * (+5)
09:41:02 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105221&oldid=105220 * Andor ch * (+0)
09:41:21 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105222&oldid=105221 * Andor ch * (-3)
09:42:29 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105223&oldid=105222 * Andor ch * (-8)
09:44:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105224&oldid=104211 * Andor ch * (+55)
09:49:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105225&oldid=105223 * Andor ch * (+26)
09:51:35 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105226&oldid=104886 * Masalt * (+9) /* Languages */
09:54:01 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105227&oldid=105216 * Masalt * (+330) /* Examples */
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10:13:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Psycoder-x * New user account
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10:26:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105228&oldid=105183 * Psycoder-x * (+205) Psycoder-x's sign
10:36:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:13 bytes :D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=105229 * Stysan * (+112) Created page with "amazing --~~~~, the 16 bytes creator"
10:50:22 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105230&oldid=105227 * Masalt * (+52) /* Examples */
10:53:20 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105231&oldid=105230 * Masalt * (+28) /* Examples */
11:07:33 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105232&oldid=105231 * Masalt * (+0) /* Examples */
11:50:00 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105233&oldid=105232 * Masalt * (+82) /* Examples */
12:10:07 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105234&oldid=105226 * Masalt * (+13) /* Languages */
12:14:51 <fizzie> ChatGPT is bad at writing polyglots: https://zem.fi/tmp/polyglot-1.png
12:14:54 <fizzie> "When compiled as a C program, the compiler will ignore the lines of code that are not valid C -- When interpreted as Python, the interpreter will ignore the lines of code that are not valid Python, --"
12:14:58 <fizzie> If only it were that easy.
12:15:33 <fizzie> I got an even less sensible result when I tried on my phone, but didn't save it.
12:55:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yufang321 * New user account
13:35:02 <int-e> (* This is a comment in Pascal *)
13:36:03 <int-e> "When compiled as a C program, the compiler will ignore the lines of code that are not valid C, [...]"
13:36:33 <int-e> Maybe that's the future.
13:37:13 <int-e> Accepting illegal programs will make AIs much better at writing compilable code.
13:43:35 <b_jonas> the easiest way is probably to put all the c code inside single-line #defines except one invocation, and put all the python code in a C comment that starts in a #define line.
13:48:06 <int-e> b_jonas: http://paste.debian.net/1263539/
13:48:29 <int-e> (Yeah, this won't scale.)
13:48:43 <esolangs> [[User:Bananaapple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105235&oldid=77332 * Bananaapple * (-126) Blanked the page
13:49:13 <esolangs> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105236&oldid=79914 * Bananaapple * (-315)
14:13:25 <b_jonas> unless you make the whole python program just a call to exec
14:21:17 <b_jonas> that is a convenient way to share data between the two languages though, since the syntax of double-quoted strings is compatible enough
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16:59:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fly * New user account
17:06:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105237&oldid=105228 * Fly * (+119) /* Introductions */
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17:39:12 <tech_exorcist> hello, is there a web-based interpreter for the M?! language?
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18:26:28 <fizzie> `blsq {"noop" "addx 123" "addx -123"} {wd{{rdn!}f[ps++}m[}\m " today's parsing trick "vv
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18:31:33 <b_jonas> fungot, please make a prediction on when Taneb will have invented enough ice cream flavors that we shall group them into a separate wisdom?
18:31:33 <fungot> b_jonas: to define not bigger than 30 minutes?
18:34:10 <b_jonas> 30 minutes eh? ok, I can wait that long
18:34:11 <fizzie> ^rainbow belated happy 20th anniversary rainbow
18:34:12 <fungot> belated happy 20th anniversary rainbow
18:34:21 <fizzie> I guess the day was yesterday.
18:41:05 <fizzie> `blsq "noop\naddx 123\naddx -123\n" WD{J:rd./ps++}\m " even better "vv
18:45:07 <earend1> one liner chiptune sounds generator: http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=t%20*%20((t%3E%3E12%7Ct%3E%3E8)%2663%26t%3E%3E4)&oneliner2=&t0=0&tmod=0&duration=30&separation=100&rate=8000
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18:48:25 <earend1> `blsq "noop\naddx 123\naddx -123\n" WD{J:rd./ps++}\m " even better "
18:48:26 <HackEso> " even better " \ {0 0 123 0 -123}
18:48:54 <earend1> `blsq "noop\naddx 123\naddx -123\n" WD{J:rd./ps++}\m " even better "v
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18:48:55 <HackEso> ERROR: Unknown command: (v \ )! \ " even better " \ {0 0 123 0 -123}
18:49:32 <earend1> `blsq "noop\naddx 123\naddx -123\n" WD{J:rd./ps++}\m " even better "x0sa
18:49:33 <HackEso> ERROR: Burlesque: (sa) Invalid arguments! \ ERROR: Unknown command: (x0)! \ " even better " \ {0 0 123 0 -123}
18:49:58 <earend1> `blsq "noop\naddx 123\naddx -123\n" WD{J:rd./ps++}\m " even better "'x0sa
18:49:59 <HackEso> "xeven better " \ {0 0 123 0 -123}
18:50:48 <earend1> `blsq "halo" " even better "'x0sa
18:51:08 <earend1> `blsq "halo" " even better " "c"'x0sa
18:51:09 <HackEso> "x" \ " even better " \ "halo"
18:51:48 <earend1> `blsq "halo" " even better "vv "c"'x0sa
18:55:19 <earend1> is it some kind of inverted polish notation?
18:56:10 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
18:56:42 <HackEso> `log? No such file or directory
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19:00:00 <tswett> So I came across this question on Stack Exchange: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/645763/how-many-transistors-at-minimum-do-you-need-to-build-a-general-purpose-computer
19:00:08 <HackEso> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. mroman created it for finance analysis because the traditionally used K and Dyalog APL are unreadable. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque )
19:00:24 <tswett> And I'm thinking: well, obviously, you can implement a general-purpose computer using just *one* transistor.
19:01:38 <b_jonas> where's the guide on the wiki for configuring Cyrus SASL to authenticate esolangers by the monthly password?
19:02:12 <tswett> So who wants to figure out how to create a Turing-complete system consisting only of shift registers and one single NAND gate? :D
19:02:22 <earend1> u need one for a single boolen gatter .. like AND afaik. that + diode and you have NAND. and you can derive all other logic from NAND
19:02:44 <earend1> so you need many transistors and diodes.
19:02:47 <b_jonas> tswett: what would store the infinite state?
19:03:53 <earend1> for display you can apply little lamps on the output. and for storage just don't power off. :)
19:04:42 <b_jonas> for storage you could use core memory or magnetic tape or disk. no transistors.
19:04:47 <earend1> combined cascaded circuits would make a bit / lamp.
19:04:56 <tswett> Let me be a little more precise. I think it'd be possible to make a system out of shift registers and one individual NAND gate, which could simulate any finite state machine with n states by using a shift register of size O(log n).
19:06:58 <b_jonas> wait, that doesn't work. core memory still needs transistors or relays for the addressing logic, though asymptotically much fewer, only like a cube root in the size of the memory rather than linear for SRAM or DRAM
19:08:24 <tswett> Can you store a bit stream on a magnetic tape without using any transistors or other similar things?
19:09:11 <tswett> Yeah, that oughta do it.
19:09:13 <earend1> thats just mechanics. some tape. with on and off. holes in paper were common.
19:09:24 <earend1> sampe principle everywhere.
19:09:54 <b_jonas> tswett: no, you probably need transistors for the tape reader, but only like a constant amount of them
19:10:00 <b_jonas> the core rings might be relevant though:
19:10:21 <earend1> you could use a ghettoblaster. or something more in the goonies incredible machine theme.
19:10:49 <tswett> Assuming that we already have a shift register, the obvious thing that you could do with one single NAND gate is a recurrence relation. You can do something like f(n) = f(n - 97) NAND f(n - 100).
19:10:52 <earend1> with terrified chickens planting eggs etc.
19:11:43 <tswett> But I don't think you can implement general computation using a recurrence relation of that form.
19:12:10 <earend1> how would O(log n) be the _size_ of a register?
19:13:26 <b_jonas> you know how for DRAM, you arrange the one-bit memory cells in a square grid, with wires through each row and column, right? each row and column needs at least some transistors or similar so you can individually enable a row and then temporarily store the result of each column, amplify it, then rewrite it. so in addition to the transistors in the DRAM itself, you need asymptotically a square root amount
19:13:32 <b_jonas> of transistors in the number of bits stored, right?
19:14:37 <tswett> earend1: Well, a shift register has a size, right? If you have a shift register with one input and two outputs, and one of the outputs is the 87th-last input and one of the outputs is the 1,000,000th-last output, then that's a shift register of size 1,000,000.
19:15:09 <tswett> b_jonas: Yeah, you definitely need some transistors-or-something for the memory. I'm trying to figure out how to minimize the number of transistors needed for just the logic unit, disregarding the memory.
19:15:10 <b_jonas> but core memory can do better, you only need a cube root. the cores can be arranged in a cube (logically, not physically), there are enable lines that span a whole plane in two different direction, and sense lines spanning a plane in the third direction, and you get away with that because the core rings themselves work not only as storage but as a logic gate: they activate only when both sense lines
19:15:16 <b_jonas> going through them have current
19:15:44 <b_jonas> and perhaps with some unrealistic physics, you could even get them to do a logical and on more than two enable lines
19:16:32 <b_jonas> basically when only one enable line sends a pulse, the core is still in its hysterisis state, but when both send a pulse, it definitely needs to be past hysterisis and change state
19:16:42 <tswett> Of course, it's possible to implement a computer using _only_ memory devices, so you have to make the decision about what the memory is allowed to do without that being cheating.
19:17:06 <b_jonas> so maybe if you have a crazy good ring where the boundary between reliable hysterisis and reliable overwrite is thin enough, you could get away with as few as a logarithmic number of transistors
19:17:18 <b_jonas> or maybe you could use the rings for logic itself somehow, replacing transistors
19:17:49 <b_jonas> the problem is that you need transistors or vacuum tubes or relays for the amplification of signals, the core ring or magnetic tape or disk itself can't do that
19:17:56 <b_jonas> and you can't really get rid of amplification
19:18:33 <b_jonas> you can of course pick between relays, vacuum tubes, and solid state logic, solid state is just usually more practical these days
19:18:46 <b_jonas> except sometimes for large currents
19:19:15 <earend1> and are you sure you're not making this up to substitute desire.
19:20:35 <earend1> daughter take these jewels of animal rights. they have sacred power.
19:21:01 <earend1> oops. wrong estoeric channel.
19:21:21 <earend1> what do you think of seafood?
19:21:46 <tswett> I don't eat seafood much. I like sushi, though.
19:22:17 <b_jonas> earend1: picking what memory to use? you could try a PC floppy drive, I think it has no logic at all, that's all in the floppy controller on the motherboard
19:22:45 <b_jonas> the signals from the motherboard through the floppy drive cable just go into the stepper motor and head and hole sensor and motor sensor and all that nonsense that you need
19:23:07 <b_jonas> so you'd need to build a more primitive disk controller for that.
19:23:47 <b_jonas> only perhaps assume a larger capacity disk, because asking the user to change disks is probably cheating how complex your computer is
19:24:32 <tswett> Now I'm trying to figure out the smallest number of NAND gates (alternatively, the smallest number of NOR gates) required to implement the rule 110 operation, which is (b + c)(a' + b' + c'), or, equivalently, a'c + b'c + bc'.
19:26:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TaserTheFox * New user account
19:26:44 <b_jonas> tswett: part of the problem is that if you make the logic too simple, then you need a ROM to store enough of your program to bootstrap your computer, like for booting from the floppy, and a ROM also needs either transistors for each of the cells that are set to 1 plus transistors for decoding logic, or core memory
19:27:53 <b_jonas> well, there's a modified version of core memory for read-only data that takes up way less space, but even then you need addressing logic
19:28:44 <b_jonas> it's sort of the same trick as ROM versus RAM
19:29:00 <b_jonas> needs much fewer rings, because the rings themselves aren't what stores the data
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19:29:28 <b_jonas> but still, you can't get rid of the addressing logic until you can bootstrap enough to read/write your disk or tape
19:30:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105238&oldid=105237 * TaserTheFox * (+167)
19:55:01 <b_jonas> you know there's the sitcom trope where someone is in a hurry, so instead of oven cooking meat for six hours, they cook it for two minutes but on 180 times higher temperature than normal. that never works out. but could you instead cook 180 times more meat for two minutes?
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19:58:03 <tswett> That sounds like a good idea.
20:02:54 <tswett> On an unrelated note, every so often, I try to figure out how diodes actually work, and it keeps on turning out to be more complicated than I thought.
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20:13:08 <esolangs> [[User:TaserTheFox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=105239 * TaserTheFox * (+215) Created page with "'''Taser''', also known as '''TaserTheFox''' is a casual furry who does random things. ==Languages== A language my friend and I created on a whim, Inspired by [[FurASM]]<br> <br> [[EsoFur]] (page creation Pending)"
20:14:04 <esolangs> [[User:TaserTheFox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105240&oldid=105239 * TaserTheFox * (-1)
20:16:04 <tswett> Soooooo metals have a band that's roughly half full (half electrons, half holes), and that's how they conduct; p-type silicon has a band that's almost completely full (tons of electrons, few holes); and n-type silicon has a band that's almost completely empty (few electrons, tons of holes). And if I understand right, n-type silicon has a somewhat
20:16:05 <tswett> negative Fermi level (it has some tendency to lose electrons and become positively charged) and p-type silicon has a somewhat positive Fermi level (it has some tendency to lose holes and become negatively charged).
20:26:45 <esolangs> [[BigBrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105241&oldid=105200 * K * (+111) new instruction
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20:37:38 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105242&oldid=105233 * Masalt * (+80)
20:49:48 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105243&oldid=105242 * Masalt * (+30)
21:06:58 <esolangs> [[BigBrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105244&oldid=105241 * K * (+0) az
21:23:07 <earend1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCRPUv8V22o + http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/
21:25:39 <esolangs> [[Tile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105245&oldid=105182 * Dtp09 * (+120)
21:41:02 <earend1> tswett: yeah .. the funcion is basically that you can make current flow in one direction, and block the other. NAND : https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.nDo-obvCmsxO-iGejTp33AHaE7?pid=ImgDet&rs=1
21:42:21 <earend1> diode is its the trangular NOT thingy. [ direction is relevant ]
21:48:38 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105246&oldid=105243 * Masalt * (+148) /* Examples */
21:50:18 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105247&oldid=105246 * Masalt * (-63)
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22:06:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SMA * uploaded "[[File:Primes.png]]"
22:09:00 <esolangs> [[BiTrax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105249&oldid=104861 * SMA * (+108) Primes example
22:16:36 <esolangs> [[BrainJuice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105250&oldid=100671 * A Monitor * (-8)
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22:24:41 <zzo38> masterbuilder: OK, I can try to explain better.
22:26:18 <zzo38> Sometimes, you will want to pass through data without dealing with character encoding (which might be anything, or maybe even unknown). Sometimes, it is incorrectly assumed that file names or something else are Unicode text, even though it isn't. Sometimes, it is Unicode but there will be mismatched surrogates. Sometimes, a character encoding cannot be unambiguously (or at all) converted to Unicode.
22:27:13 <zzo38> Sometimes, rendering, even if it is converted to Unicode, you will have to know the original code to render it correctly anyways. Sometimes they insist on using Unicode for everything and even leads to security issues, including homoglyphs and many others.
22:27:53 <zzo38> The Unicode Conspiracy making everything use one character set, to try to be suitable for everything, is causing many problems with computer programs.
22:35:05 <earend1> `zalgo long may last chtulus reign
22:35:07 <HackEso> l̃ͯo̢ͯńͪg̛̑ ̵̙m̡͙ă͟y̘͌ ͗̆l̢ͯa̫ͪsͭ̎t͔̾ ̹̇c͈̾h̩̭ṯ̨u̸͏lͮ͑u̴͙s͉͊ ̩͉ŕͅe̼͢i็͏g̹͛n̄ͪ
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22:41:58 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105251&oldid=105234 * Masalt * (+483)
22:42:28 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105252&oldid=105251 * Masalt * (+15) /* masalt */
22:43:13 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105253&oldid=105247 * Masalt * (-1)
22:45:49 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105254&oldid=105253 * Masalt * (-1)
22:47:03 <earend1> zzo38: how do you deal with this.
22:49:18 <earend1> like in one or two lines of code .. or i dont know. a link to one or two lines of code. but not a book recommendation. unless .. ok (:
23:00:51 <zzo38> Well, sometimes I just write my own programs.
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23:33:17 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105255&oldid=105254 * Masalt * (-6) /* Disan Count */
23:45:53 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105256&oldid=105255 * Masalt * (+77) /* Examples */
23:49:06 <esolangs> [[MCBlocks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105257&oldid=99080 * BoundedBeans * (+41) Added Multi-dimensional languages category
23:51:47 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=105258&oldid=105256 * Masalt * (+40) /* Factorial */
23:55:16 <masterbuilder> zzo38: Thanks, wasn't sure what you meant, it's clear now