00:41:52 <b_jonas> er what is that game called? Kittens Game?
00:42:14 <int-e> that's what they said
00:42:16 <b_jonas> when did esolangs start to play this? I didn't notice
00:42:33 <int-e> I still haven't figured out how many seconds a season is
00:42:38 <b_jonas> weren't they playing N-step Steve?
00:43:07 * int-e finished n-step steve part 2
00:43:19 <int-e> oh noes, a cold spring
00:44:27 <int-e> I didn't know either, I only started an hour or so ago.
00:45:58 <FireFly> IIRC a kittens game year is ~15 min
00:46:14 <FireFly> maybe? it's been years since I played
00:46:27 <FireFly> might be ~an hour, in which case a season is ~15 min :p
00:47:17 <int-e> looks like 200 seconds
00:47:32 <int-e> (100 days, 2 seconds per day)
00:47:47 <int-e> a *year* is about 15 minutes then
00:47:48 <FireFly> oh, yeah that checks out, then a year is 13.34 minutes, so my ~15 min memory was right
00:48:49 <FireFly> I played it at some point in the pre-covid times, so that's at least >3 years ago :p
00:49:15 <FireFly> maybe should replay it sometime and see what's been added since
00:50:09 <fizzie> I don't think it's as... interactive, as the puzzle games.
00:50:34 <int-e> it's funny that farming can feed a bit over one kitten regardless of the season
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00:52:28 <fizzie> I've got 6 farmers (and 152 catnip fields) feeding my 255 kittens.
00:52:40 <FireFly> well you have a couple upgrades :p
00:53:14 <int-e> It's year 4, winter
00:54:06 <fizzie> Production +95/s, (:3) village +130.31/s, |-> tools +80%, buildings +85%, solar revolution +982%, (:3) demand -2351.80/s, net surplus +4246.06/s.
00:54:18 <fizzie> It's mostly the solar revolution bonus, I guess.
00:54:39 <int-e> obviously I have no clue what that is.
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00:55:57 <int-e> But it's definitely more interesting and less clicky than the notorious cookie clicker
00:56:51 <FireFly> I haven't played a lot of them (and haven't played cookie clicker), but I think kittens is the only infinite idle game I've really enjoyed
00:57:18 <FireFly> there are some neat finite ones though, like A Dark Room (which kittens borrowed the aesthetic/visual design from a bit)
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00:57:49 <int-e> There's the JS programming one, Bitburner.
00:57:56 <FireFly> don't think I've seen that one, hm
01:02:28 <b_jonas> do you have, like, links to these?
01:02:48 <FireFly> kittens game is http://kittensgame.com/
01:02:58 <FireFly> a dark room is http://adarkroom.doublespeakgames.com/
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01:32:02 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
01:32:33 <GregorR> This is actually still a derivative of HackEgo, all these years on, innit?
01:33:18 <fizzie> I did rewrite the init, I think.
01:33:37 <fizzie> To use protos for getting the config from the Python script, for no real reason.
01:34:17 <FireFly> it's still doing UML things, I guess?
01:34:33 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/hackbot / https://github.com/fis/umlbox / https://github.com/fis/multibot -- they're all forks of your repos.
01:34:46 <HackEso> Linux version 4.9.82 (root@techne.zem.fi) (gcc version 6.3.0 20170516 (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1) ) #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018
01:35:13 <GregorR> Hm, thought that might say something about UML. Not sure how that gets translated :)
01:35:30 <GregorR> Well, how delightful to see that's still kickin'
01:35:41 <HackEso> Linux (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:36:10 <fizzie> I think maybe distribution UML kernels sometimes put "-uml" or something in there, but I probably just built that from the sources.
01:36:44 <fizzie> `` cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep model
01:48:33 <int-e> Ah, a second unicorn.
01:53:53 <fizzie> Thanks for reminding, I need to use up my unicorns.
01:54:10 <fizzie> What's the collective noun for a bunch of unicorns?
01:54:44 <fizzie> A blessing, suggests the Internet.
01:54:54 <fizzie> I guess that makes sense.
02:06:09 <int-e> `learn UML is short for "Umlaut". It powers Häckesö.
02:06:12 <HackEso> Learned 'uml': UML is short for "Umlaut". It powers Häckesö.
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02:39:05 <zzo38> Do you like the puzzle games like Hero Hearts? Many of the newer games you will need Steam or Windows or iPhone or something else, and have some problems, that is why I wrote my own instead. Many other people on here had play other game, but I had play a different games than anyone else did because they don't like it, I suppose
02:45:42 <zzo38> Do you like ZZT game?
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07:42:47 <zzo38> Do you have mathematically-oriented ideas about custom cards of Magic: the Gathering? (e.g. prime numbers, Fibonacci sequence, etc, and maybe even such things not directly related to numbers, e.g. category theory)
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09:59:57 <wib_jonas> zzo38: you don't need to. mathematics is concerned with natural objects that already exist and pop up everywhere without you having to add them. that's why for example M:tG can do Turing-complete computations (and maybe more depending on what the infinite loop rules mean) even though Wizards didn't specifically aim to add a Turing-complete computer
10:01:18 <wib_jonas> sometimes non-mathematical coworkers are confused on why we're using mathematics to solve something, it's not because we like mathematics so much that that we use it as a tool for everything, it's because mathematics is already the right tool and was hiding behind the natural problems that we want to solve
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11:14:47 <wib_jonas> wait, so 13 inch floppy disks never existed, they started with the 8 inch ones? what kind of weird computer history is that?
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13:06:24 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106081&oldid=106016 * Orisphera * (+88) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
13:07:35 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106082&oldid=106081 * Orisphera * (+53) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
13:49:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ElBe * New user account
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14:28:52 <int-e> . o O ( +69.00 science! )
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18:14:23 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106083&oldid=103058 * Joaozin003 * (+48) /* Links */
20:27:10 <esolangs> [[AnruBfiankc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106084&oldid=105983 * Angrylad * (+79) added see also
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21:39:58 <b_jonas> oh wow, this Workshop offers some very expensive but powerful improvements
21:40:54 <int-e> Everything in this game is expensive.
21:41:32 <int-e> (Not currently playing, but I did start a run in my other browser profile that keeps state.)
21:42:13 <int-e> "We've noticed that you like expensive things so here's something even more expensive!" -- the game in a nutshell?
21:42:25 <b_jonas> yeah, I can get improvements that improve improvements that improve the speed of workers that produce materials
21:42:32 <int-e> The science tree also sounds a lot like Civilization.
21:43:10 <int-e> (There's Writing (if you haven't seen that yet... you'll see it soon. I'm only at year 20 or so.)
21:43:33 <b_jonas> will there be an improvement that gives cats minimal intelligence so if they would starve they abandon what they're working on and start farming instead?
21:44:19 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think there's such an improvement.
21:44:30 <int-e> I don't know. Since I started over I've actually managed to plan ahead for the winters with catnip to spare. I'm also keeping cat numbers relatively low.
21:44:39 <int-e> My first run I killed 3 kittens the first year.
21:44:58 <int-e> But the record of that is gone ;-)
21:44:59 <fizzie> Though there's enough boosts to catnip production that it's no trouble keeping the number positive even in cold winters without allocating many kittens to farming.
21:45:36 <int-e> The solution is to invest catnip in spring.
21:45:53 <int-e> Or, well, at the start of winter when you know how bad it is.
21:46:13 <int-e> Though I guess there's a chance that it gets more complicated again.
21:46:28 <b_jonas> isn't this supposed to be an idle game? why should I pay attention at every winter?
21:46:29 <int-e> (Adding emergencies.)
21:46:33 <fizzie> Personally, I just kept the number positive at all times, because I'd've felt real bad for a dead kitten.
21:47:04 <int-e> b_jonas: It doesn't have to be the next spring.
21:47:04 <b_jonas> I guess I will be able to after some farming improvements
21:47:32 <fizzie> It's summer now, so not exactly comparable, but my 6 farmers (out of 255) are producing a net +4403.42/s catnip.
21:47:50 <int-e> I'm not sure how much of an actual idle game this is early on. Though I looked at the dark room thing and it seemed *terribly* attention-grabbing in comparison.
21:48:10 <int-e> fizzie: what's your year?
21:48:27 <fizzie> It's currently year 5655 here.
21:48:29 <int-e> also, do kittens die of old age?
21:48:57 <b_jonas> I think if they die of old age, the hut just immediately replace them with a new younger kitten that can do just as much work
21:49:08 <b_jonas> the young ones are just as good scholars as the old wise ones
21:49:26 <fizzie> No, they're canonically the same kittens. There's a tech that gives you a list of names, ages, traits and ranks of all your kittens in the second tab.
21:49:51 <fizzie> So my kitten leader, Lily Fur, was 11 years old already over five millennia ago.
21:50:28 <b_jonas> furs and ivory? what the heck are those?
21:50:35 <fizzie> (As far as I'm aware, the names and ages are absolutely meaningless. The traits and ranks do have a gameplay effect.)
21:50:42 <b_jonas> oh no, the cats are eating i
21:50:54 <int-e> it makes them happy
21:50:54 <fizzie> Yeah, the cats consume luxury resources. :/
21:51:05 <int-e> also, happy kittens need more food
21:51:16 <int-e> that almost killed me at least once. well, not me.
21:52:02 <fizzie> Current resource stats, which I guess might qualify as mild spoilers in terms of what's to come: https://zem.fi/tmp/res.png
21:52:03 <int-e> "need more food"... it's not a whole lot more food... just noticable when you're balancing food production and consumption
21:52:11 <fizzie> (Not a complete list.)
21:53:30 <fizzie> I think I found happiness a bit tricky to manage earlier on, actually. There's a fairly strict overpopulation penalty past... some number of kittens, maybe 20?
21:54:05 <fizzie> But there's two different building types later on to partially mitigate that penalty, so my kittens are currently 268% happy.
21:54:15 <int-e> fizzie: it already ramps up at 10
21:54:26 <fizzie> Ah, that early. Yeah, it was a thing.
21:54:57 <int-e> It's 1% per kitten up to 10, then 2%... I wouldn't be surprised if it grows further, but I haven't grown beyond 12.
21:55:32 <fizzie> I think it's flat 2% forever, actually. Well, or at least for the first 255.
21:56:04 <fizzie> Because my happiness score lists a penalty base of -500%, and 10*1+245*2 is that.
21:56:12 <int-e> I have unicorns so the baseline is now 96%.
21:56:14 <FireFly> kittens is a game that really punishes you if you don't spend the time/investment to boost the multipliers for other resources (like mines for minerals, workshops especially for all the derived resources)
21:56:23 <fizzie> (Of which, 499% is mitigated.)
21:57:22 <fizzie> Yeah, that was a worthwhile upgrade. The others that trade catnip for energy, more of a mixed sword.
21:57:48 <fizzie> I think I combined a two-edged sword and a mixed blessing together accidentally.
21:57:51 <FireFly> (I kinda wanna be a bit conservative with building/etc names, because I think at least for me I really enjoyed the exploration side of my first run)
21:58:00 <FireFly> so I don't wanna spoil that for others :p
21:58:10 <int-e> FireFly: I actually do like the fact that I started playing and starved 3 kittens... mixing in detrimental effects sets this game apart from other incremental games.
21:58:29 <b_jonas> I find it odd that the first research is Calendar, described as "Develops the ability to predict when the seasons will change." yet the game still doesn't tell me how many seconds more of winter I have. It only says how many days the winter has lasted so far, but nothing else is measured in days.
21:58:43 <fizzie> A real mixed sword, or as some people call it, a two-edged blessing.
21:58:48 <int-e> FireFly: Well, that I've seen. I haven't really played that many.
21:59:12 <int-e> fizzie: You have two-edged unicorns (pural)?
22:00:50 <fizzie> Odd, the game displays a year of 5655, but with a tooltip saying the real year is 5661, even though I haven't done any time shenanigans.
22:01:02 <fizzie> Maybe that's just from the negative days.
22:01:18 <FireFly> they work in paradoxical ways after all
22:01:39 <fizzie> Yeah, it's a fine line to tread, discussing this stuff.
22:01:53 <fizzie> Well, there's "time stuff", let's leave it at that.
22:02:09 <fizzie> I mean, I guess the time tab is there from the very beginning.
22:02:10 <b_jonas> yeah, the time tab is probably not just for the single button
22:03:19 <b_jonas> yeah, two, there's Reset as well
22:04:44 <b_jonas> ok, I reached the stage where the next catnip field is so expensive that I need to improve storage to buy it. I have to decide if I want to buy a barn or if I want to buy the much more expensive upgrade that makes my barns bigger
22:05:26 <FireFly> <int-e> I'm not sure how much of an actual idle game this is early on. Though I looked at the dark room thing and it seemed *terribly* attention-grabbing in comparison. <- yeah, I think ADR gets a bit idle-y too at a point, but it's also a bit different in that it takes maybe a day or two to finish, and there's like, a definitive end with credits and things
22:05:45 <FireFly> so it's not really quite an idle game in the same way? I think it's one of the first ones in that genre of webgames
22:06:54 <b_jonas> apparently I need all my barns full of wood to but this barn size upgrade
22:07:17 <int-e> You need 4 barns to upgrade barns.
22:07:21 <int-e> Guess how many barns I have atm.
22:08:40 <b_jonas> making iron from wood is odd
22:08:50 <b_jonas> oh right, the wood is for heating the furnace
22:09:01 <b_jonas> so apparently the minerals don't include coal
22:09:35 <int-e> FWIW: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kittens-buildings.png (There may be two or three building types there that you don't have yet.)
22:11:21 <FireFly> I think it's probably still worth getting more kittens btw, though yeah, it's a balance act with the happiness stuff
22:11:56 <int-e> Well I can see that I need more catpower soon-ish.
22:12:19 <int-e> And at this point that means more huts and/or houses.
22:12:58 <FireFly> you have a building at your disposal to help fight the overpopulation problem
22:13:15 <FireFly> I think it's fine if you're in the like, 90+ happiness range consistently
22:13:29 <int-e> It's still very early in the game.
22:13:36 <int-e> I'm not overly worried :)
22:13:53 <fizzie> I think I was trying to shoot for 90+%, yeah.
22:14:13 <fizzie> And once that building you mention upgraded to the other building you alluded to, it stopped really being a problem at all.
22:15:00 <FireFly> the game does like doing those things where after a while you just get a hammer to deal with a problem once and for all
22:15:05 <FireFly> not for _every_ problem, but for many of them
22:15:05 <int-e> FireFly: I also have only one smelter which means anything that needs gold is excruciatingly slow. I have not spent any gold yet.
22:15:39 <b_jonas> but a second smelter isn't too expensive, so you can invest into that if you need lots of gold
22:16:00 <int-e> So you can see that gold was discovered 446.5 days ago. ;-)
22:16:28 <int-e> Yeah, priorities. I have tons of other things that don't need any gold yet.
22:17:59 <fizzie> Ooh: "Color scheme permanently unlocked: Vintage"
22:18:09 <fizzie> (Not a spoiler, because you can see the full list of them in settings.)
22:18:29 <int-e> Yes, spoiler: You can unlock color schemes? ;-)
22:18:46 <int-e> (I don't care. It doesn't affect the game. Well, I hope.)
22:18:55 <fizzie> No, it's entirely cosmetic.
22:19:00 <FireFly> pretty sure it's quite literally just cosmetic yea :p
22:19:24 <fizzie> It's in the Options menu, and it also says "Relock Themes" which kind of implies you can *un*lock them too.
22:19:32 <fizzie> Well, maybe that only shows up once you have some unlocked.
22:19:57 <FireFly> speaking of options menu, might be worth giving it a look-over, there's some useful ones that can be tweaked to one's preferene
22:20:10 <FireFly> like hiding sell buttons :p
22:20:36 <fizzie> I turned web worker on, because at least in my Chrome otherwise switching to a different virtual desktop froze the game.
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22:26:41 <b_jonas> I do want to be able to sell huts
22:27:28 <int-e> But the kittens don't just leave... and I don't know what happens to their happiness.
22:27:53 <fizzie> I would think a homeless kitten would be a sad one.
22:28:07 <int-e> Because in my case they starved before I could figure that out.
22:28:51 <int-e> (Story from my first ill-fated run. I couldn't farm yet.)
22:29:58 <FireFly> I think many first-time players have bad experiences with winter in their first run
22:30:07 <FireFly> especially if they get unlucky with a cold one, heh
22:30:41 <int-e> I just did the normal thing... spend all my resources, max out on workers.
22:31:00 <int-e> *can* you even get unlucky the first year?
22:31:23 <int-e> I kind of doubt it, but my sample size is small. Three runs.
22:32:00 <int-e> (I had the first run, then a better experimental run yesterday up to year 10, but on the forgetful browser.)
22:32:20 <FireFly> yeah you're right, I think the cold/warm might only kick in after a few years
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22:37:31 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes, starting from year 4. my winter in year 4, winter in year 5, and the spring after winter in year 5 were all cold.
22:40:04 <b_jonas> oh... even with the expanded barns I can't buy the next catnip field
22:40:39 <b_jonas> there's something wrong with that. does the extnded barns not store more catnips?
22:40:54 <b_jonas> it only increases the other capacities?
22:44:35 <b_jonas> ah yes, the description says "Expanded Barns. 75% more storage space for wood and iron"
22:45:01 <b_jonas> ooh, happiness can go above 100%
22:47:05 <b_jonas> hmm, now I can build warehouses
22:47:28 <FireFly> for housing all your warez
22:54:39 <b_jonas> I can trade with hostile Griffins
22:55:01 <b_jonas> that's fun because they have almost as many different English spellings as Phoenixes
22:55:45 <b_jonas> and I could discover new lands if I had more catpower capacity, though I have no idea how to increase my catpower capacity
22:56:31 <b_jonas> there's also a Stats page, showing that I starved 8 kittens near the start of the game
22:57:10 <fizzie> The Griffins hate you for no reason.
22:57:25 <FireFly> the real bastards are the zebras..
22:58:00 <FireFly> oh yeah, that's a silly bug
22:58:13 <FireFly> I think the only reason it hasn't been fixed is it's literally only a problem before one selects their first leader
22:58:47 <fizzie> The only policy set I've not made a choice between that I've been eligible to is Zebra Relations, because neither of the two options really appealed to me.
22:58:56 <fizzie> For everything else, I've picked something.
23:00:05 <b_jonas> hmm, does buying a second workshop unlock more researches that I can buy in the workshop and/or more craftable materials?
23:00:36 <fizzie> It improves your craft effectiveness.
23:00:46 <b_jonas> yeah, I know that part, it says so
23:01:01 <fizzie> That's "all" it does, but that's not an unimportant benefit.
23:01:09 <fizzie> Since a lot costs craftable resources.
23:01:44 <fizzie> I'm at +786% craft effectiveness, for example.
23:01:47 <b_jonas> sure, and there are multi-depth crafting recipes where you get the productivity bonus multiple times
23:01:54 <FireFly> it's one of those things that'll end up having-- yeah
23:03:58 <fizzie> FireFly: Did you start making spreadsheets? I understand that's kind of a thing to do with these things.
23:04:00 <fizzie> I've done a few little things, but nothing really major.
23:04:44 <FireFly> I remember taking some notes around trading with the different trading partners at least
23:04:51 <FireFly> but yeah, only minor things for me I think
23:04:54 <b_jonas> I have written my own calculator tool for Factorio, and have more TODO how I should improve it. does that count?
23:04:55 <FireFly> I'm not _that_ much of a minmaxer
23:05:24 <fizzie> Different game, but definitely the same sort of thing.
23:06:11 <b_jonas> I don't think I'll get very deep in Kittens
23:07:09 <b_jonas> ok, that might have been the last catnip fields that I bought
23:07:58 <fizzie> Some of those things really ramp up in cost. Huts in particular.
23:08:22 <b_jonas> I have 71 catnip fields and 5 barns, and I'd need to buy another barn to buy the catnip fields, and I could probably only buy like two or three before the next barn after that
23:08:48 <b_jonas> so I guess I'll just have to invest into science until I discover better food production methods
23:09:07 <FireFly> that's a lotta catnip fields
23:09:38 <fizzie> I've got 156 catnip fields, but the six farmers still outperform them in terms of catnip production.
23:10:40 <fizzie> And of course aren't affected by seasons, which is maybe not very realistic.
23:11:05 <b_jonas> whoa, log house, I didn't notice that
23:11:31 <FireFly> ! I came across my first new game mechanic (since I last played)
23:12:43 <FireFly> (Lbhe xvggraf ner fhssrevat ab vyy rssrpgf sebz cbyyhgvba.)
23:13:42 <fizzie> Vg cebonoyl pbhagf nf purngvat, ohg V whfg 'abcr'q gung. Naq sebz jung V ernq, gur vagebqhpgvba bs vg jnf n yvggyr pbagebirefvny gbb.
23:14:38 <fizzie> (Gurer'f n gbttyr va bcgvbaf / zber sbe vg. Gubhtu V qvq vg ol QVL.)
23:17:38 <fizzie> V guvax zl znva fghzoyvat oybpx va gur ab-erfrgf nccebnpu evtug abj vf, lbh qba'g trg npprff gb frpbaq-gvre havpbea eryvtvba fghss jvgubhg Zrtnybinavn, juvpu pbfgf 5+10 cnentba (jvgu gur cererdhvfvgr), fb V yvgrenyyl pna'g qb zhpu zber orsber jnvgvat gra gubhfnaq zber lrnef.
23:18:24 <fizzie> Playing without resets is probably objectively nonsensical, but eh.
23:19:07 <FireFly> I think at least if you continue that approach you'll get an achievement after silly amounts of time
23:19:23 <FireFly> yeah I'm not sure it's worth it :p
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23:20:12 <fizzie> I suspect I'll leave it in the background for extended periods of time eventually.
23:23:08 <b_jonas> huh, the workshop lists a craftable material that is crafted from a material that I don't know yet
23:23:50 <b_jonas> I don't know how this works
23:24:14 <fizzie> I suspect it means the initial storage capacity of the thing you don't have yet is sufficient to craft whatever it is it's for.
23:25:31 <fizzie> Or maybe it's a craftable resource that has no caps. But in any case, I think red's reserved for the case where you couldn't possibly build something because of the caps.
23:34:10 <b_jonas> ooh! I got a new way to get more catnip
23:35:57 <fizzie> Now that I think of it, I'm not sure it's healthy for kittens to subsist only on catnip.
23:38:02 <b_jonas> maybe the catnip is a game simplification for multiple plant-based cat food
23:38:51 <b_jonas> ooh! free items from the workshop productivity
23:39:56 <FireFly> "catnip" just sounds more fun than "food" (and I guess works better with the refinement to wood.. well kinda, I mean it's the kind of game where you need to suspend some disbelief I guess :p)
23:40:23 <fizzie> I guess it's a catnip forest, after all, that's already a bit odd.
23:46:23 <fizzie> Heh, I just realized I kind of stopped building warehouses a long time ago (there's so much bigger storage upgrades), and now they're relatively speaking really cheap.
23:46:30 <fizzie> Like, at the count I'm on (62 warehouses), the price is ~2k beam and slab, and I've got a stockpile of 4.71G beam and 3.13G slab. I guess I could throw a hundred million each at it, for something like... 70 more warehouses, if my math was right.
23:47:15 <fizzie> Yeah, ended up at 137 warehouses before the slab count dipped to 2.99G.
23:47:42 <fizzie> Didn't actually boost the resource caps very much though.
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23:56:02 <b_jonas> ooh! so this new thing boosts catnip production both on the fields and by farmers
23:57:46 <fizzie> The tooltips about bonuses are sometimes kinda hard to interpret.
23:58:27 <fizzie> They've got some |-> notation sometimes which I've inferred is trying to indicate what bonuses apply to what.
23:58:52 <b_jonas> hmm, refine catnip to wood doesn't benefit from the workshop bonus?
23:59:17 <fizzie> For catnip, I think it's (fields * weather + village * tools) * buildings * other things.
23:59:42 <fizzie> Maybe that one was special, actually.