←2023-01-13 2023-01-14 2023-01-15→ ↑2023 ↑all
00:00:11 <fizzie> Yeah, there's a different kind of (much later) building that affects the catnip refine bonus separately.
00:00:20 <b_jonas> I clicked on the refine 100 catnip button and got only 100 wood
00:00:29 <fizzie> Yeah, that's probably right.
00:01:09 <b_jonas> I know there's a workshop upgrade that makes it costs only 50 catnip per wood, and I got that already
00:01:42 <fizzie> (With +4372/s catnip production and +242K/s of wood production, there isn't really much sense in refining catnip to wood.)
00:02:23 <b_jonas> anyway, it looks like producing wood with woodcutters is faster than with farmers, that's what I wanted to know, that's why I was trying to understand how all these confusing numbers work
00:02:25 <FireFly> I think there was a period in which farmers + refining catnip paid off better than woodcutters
00:02:39 <FireFly> but probably only temporarily and only borderline
00:02:46 <FireFly> probably not worth optimising for :p
00:05:02 <b_jonas> yeah, but the numbers were so hard to understand that I didn't know it even though it's not even close now, woodcutters are much better
00:07:16 <fizzie> I would like to get a bit more (moderate spoilers) snvgu, orpnhfr bs gubfr ercrngrq eryvtvba obahfrf + yrff obahf ybff sebz nqbengvba, ohg vg qbrfa'g frrz ernyyl cenpgvpny, orpnhfr NSNVPG bayl grzcyrf fgber snvgu, naq ng 69 grzcyrf, gur arkg bar pbfgf 125X tbyq.
00:08:21 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't remember any catnip in N-Step Steve.
00:08:41 <fizzie> (Bxnl, abg fb zhpu yrff FE obahf ybff, zber yvxr orvat noyr gb erfgber vg snfgre ol fnivat hc zber snvgu.)
00:11:01 <FireFly> mmm
00:11:12 <FireFly> it's kind of designed around having reset at that point I think
00:11:20 <FireFly> (but yes, them kittens..)
00:12:50 <b_jonas> ok, I think I can capture more kittens
00:13:56 <fizzie> In my headcanon, they're joining of their own volition, not really get captured.
00:14:09 <b_jonas> yeah
00:14:16 <b_jonas> let's say I can attract more kittens
00:27:19 <int-e> . o O ( the cheat code is "c'mere kitty" )
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00:48:34 <b_jonas> you were right, some of these things that I can buy are very expensive
00:49:51 <b_jonas> well I can't buy them yet
00:50:08 <b_jonas> but they're offered from sale
00:52:05 <fizzie> "13.05Z havpbeaf unir orra fnpevsvprq. Lbh'ir tbg 167.04X havpbea grnef!" At some point these stop feeling like real things and just become numbers.
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01:01:37 <b_jonas> I hope I eventually get something that gives zber cebqhpgvivgl gb fzrygvat veba
01:02:03 <b_jonas> year 29, 11 kittens by the way
01:13:25 <int-e> > 28 * 800 / 3600
01:13:27 <lambdabot> 6.222222222222222
01:14:37 <FireFly> frig, accidentally had some kittens die :(
01:14:43 <FireFly> so much for keeping that zero
01:15:09 <FireFly> should've kept more of a safety margin
01:15:30 <int-e> . o O ( just use the "wipe" button and all will be forgotten )
01:18:26 <b_jonas> what's the difference between wipe and reset?
01:19:06 <int-e> For now, the statistics tab.
01:19:26 <int-e> Apparently there's some boni that carry over between runs later one? Not sure, just sounds like it.
01:19:40 <int-e> Wipe gets rid of all that too.
01:19:57 <FireFly> doesn't the 'Time' tab expand on that in the reset section?
01:20:19 <int-e> It's explained somewhere in the game, yeah.
01:20:20 <FireFly> (but yeah, that seems right)
01:20:28 <int-e> I don't have it open :P
01:20:36 <int-e> (So I'm still 21)
01:20:45 <FireFly> oh to still be 21..
01:20:48 * FireFly ducks
01:21:15 <b_jonas> FireFly: "Resetting the timeline will start the game from scratch. You will keep all your statistics and achievements. You receive various game bonuses."
01:21:44 <FireFly> right
01:21:54 <b_jonas> two more minutes and I'll be able to buy the expensive thing that will make the kittens very happy
01:23:45 <int-e> you'd think catnip would be enough
01:23:48 <b_jonas> bought it
01:32:41 <b_jonas> I just got my first unicorn
01:33:06 <b_jonas> clearly the expensive thing was worth
01:33:14 <int-e> huh
01:33:54 <int-e> hunters brought unicorns home for me in the first decade in two runs
01:33:59 <int-e> was I lucky?
01:34:14 <fizzie> Regarding fzrygvat veba, there's n qvssrerag ohvyqvat gung unf n zhpu ovttre onfr engr bs veba cebqhpgvba, cyhf inevbhf hctenqrf, but really what matters are the zber be yrff tybony cebqhpgvba obahfrf. For example, I'm cebqhpvat +11390/f veba, sebz n onfr cebqhpgvba svther bs zreryl +86.19/f, jvgu +333%, +175% naq +1010% obahfrf nccyvrq zhygvcyvpngviryl.
01:34:37 <fizzie> I don't think I needed to hunt _too_ long to get my first 'corn.
01:35:32 <int-e> Plural, btw, I got the unicorn pasture too. I saw a third one, but that took a long while.
01:35:59 <fizzie> Ah, if you've got a unicorn pasture, then you've seen its flavor text, I liked that one.
01:36:01 <int-e> But I guess it's still a matter of sparing a worker for hunting.
01:36:25 <int-e> Some of the flavor texts are funny.
01:36:31 <fizzie> I'm getting +188.10/s plain 'corns at the moment.
01:37:13 <int-e> I liked the aqueduct one too.
01:37:25 <fizzie> I don't think I can see it any more. :/
01:37:40 <int-e> "No swimming"
01:37:47 <fizzie> Ah, heh.
01:37:59 <fizzie> Wouldn't think a kitten community would need that sign.
01:38:09 <fizzie> Well, some cats do like to swim, I've seen them on YouTube.
01:38:14 <int-e> Heh, that didn't cross my mind.
01:38:31 <int-e> Though I've heard that *some* cats like water.
01:39:26 <int-e> Does the game also do the Civilization thing where a certain technology renders buildings obsolete?
01:39:43 <fizzie> That may or may not be the reason why I can't see the text any more. (Yes.)
01:40:23 <fizzie> Although... the way it works is, when you choose to "upgrade" a building type, you lose all the old ones you've built, and the new ones aren't in all cases just "same, but better".
01:40:43 <fizzie> Sometimes they do a different thing. And it's not done to everything, just a handful of things.
01:41:33 <fizzie> I think I stalled quite long before getting rid of aqueducts, because of having to allocate a lot of kittens for farming to compensate for the loss of catnip production.
01:42:35 <b_jonas> ooh, so now I have to craft in the workshop parchment from furs, while the kittens are quickly eating the furs to make this hard
01:42:46 <int-e> Okay, so not quite the same... Civilization had you scramble and rebuild everything.
01:43:05 <int-e> (well, "scramble"... it's turn-based after all)
01:43:15 <fizzie> By the way, on unicorns, there's one whole game mechanic that (from what I've read) a lot of people take a long long time to find, owing to the fact that the game doesn't actually show buildings you have already unlocked until you've got some sufficient fraction of the resources to build them.
01:43:20 <fizzie> So if a building needs some craftable resource, and you don't have any other reason to craft it, and it's an expensive one, you might never learn the building exists in the first place.
01:43:39 <fizzie> That's kind of bad design-wise, for anyone who doesn't just get spoiled by the internet.
01:43:43 <int-e> Oh.
01:43:55 <b_jonas> ah, I didn't know that
01:44:38 <int-e> That's pretty bad if you always decide what to build next and build it as soon as possible.
01:44:56 <int-e> (Which is even encouraged by the building queue.)
01:45:21 <fizzie> I don't think there's many cases where that's likely to happen, and it's not super relevant for the early game I guess, but still.
01:45:46 <int-e> There's also the resource tab to the left where you can convert stuff directly... but only if you've converted it before.
01:45:56 <int-e> I missed the "workshop" tab for a while.
01:46:27 <fizzie> Says somewhere you need to have available 30% of the resources needed for building a thing before the thing shows up in the bonfire tab.
01:47:06 <int-e> 30%. Yeah that feels consistent with what I've seen.
01:47:30 <b_jonas> wait, what increases catpower storage capacity?
01:47:46 <b_jonas> I used to have only 400, now I have 525
01:47:54 <fizzie> The number of kittens. Or housing, rather.
01:48:00 <b_jonas> I see
01:48:08 <int-e> (I've experienced that a) buildings don't show up when they're unlocked and b) that they show up way before I have enough resources to build them.
01:48:16 <fizzie> (And one more thing.)
01:49:18 <FireFly> oh yeah, the building queue is also new for me
01:49:23 <b_jonas> this first building I've seen that requires parchment showed up before I ever crafted parchment. probably because it also costs other resources which I had and those count into that 30%
01:49:43 <fizzie> It actually says the catpower increase in the hut / log house tooltips; it's not exactly the same catpower/kittens ratio between the two of them.
01:49:59 <b_jonas> indeed ti does
01:52:40 <fizzie> If you're worried about the one "missable" building and don't mind just its existence spoiled, it's n mvttheng, naq gur svefg bar pbfgf svsgl zrtnyvgu naq fpnssbyq (dhvgr rkcrafvir rneyl ba), naq vf haybpxrq ol pbafgehpgvba (gur fnzr nf r.t. ybt ubhfrf, fb cerggl rneyl).
01:53:19 <fizzie> It might not even do much before some other milestone, don't remember.
01:56:45 <b_jonas> I'm more worried about missable upgrades or research in the workshop, perhaps those also show up only if I have resources, though most seem to be locked behind other researches
02:00:11 <b_jonas> this game is very well done by the way. you can tell that from how there's an undo button.
02:14:52 <int-e> ideally it should have a way to export and import the state :P
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02:17:18 <b_jonas> int-e: there is a way to export and import the game state, bottom of the options menu
02:17:45 <int-e> Oh?!
02:17:48 <int-e> I'll have to check that.
02:18:57 <fizzie> Yeah, I've been doing Export → File (full name) as a way of backing up every now and then.
02:19:23 <fizzie> (Which was good, because it turned out I had configured the browser to forget all state when it gets closed, and then I had to reboot.)
02:19:53 <fizzie> That would've been a tragic tragedy.
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04:49:45 <zzo38> Do you know why sometimes I am unable to send on the internet even though I can receive (therefore, can continue to download files that are being downloaded but cannot initiate a download, and can receive IRC messages and eventually get a ping timeout, etc)?
05:22:23 <b_jonas> hmm, there's now a promote button, it complains "not enough gold" if I try to use it, but it doesn't tell how much gold I need
05:22:27 <b_jonas> odd mystery mechanic
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11:59:23 <int-e> Hah, https://xkcd.com/2724/ (yesterday's) reminds me a bit of this channel.
12:20:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106085&oldid=106022 * Xyzzy * (+127)
12:21:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106086&oldid=106085 * Xyzzy * (-72)
12:25:07 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106087&oldid=102963 * Xyzzy * (+230)
12:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106088&oldid=106087 * Xyzzy * (+12)
13:13:10 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah "the bottom of the options"... I didn't see the scroll bar in the options box. (It auto-hides. Grumble.)
13:16:26 <int-e> But the two `file` buttons don't work for me? Hmm.
13:17:07 <int-e> The text box is fine, I suppose.
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13:19:18 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106089&oldid=106058 * Grs * (+118)
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14:28:51 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106103&oldid=106102 * Grs * (+599)
14:29:20 <FireFly> (kittens) whei, new tab
14:30:12 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106104&oldid=106103 * Grs * (+63)
14:30:35 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106105&oldid=106104 * Grs * (-1)
14:33:44 <b_jonas> int-e: at least one of the file buttons to export the save worked for me.
14:36:34 <b_jonas> also I was stupid, turns out I'm stuck in science because I didn't have enough science storage capacity.
14:37:11 <b_jonas> they're not even expensive to build or anything, I just wasn't looking at that possibility: the 9000 storage capacity seemed so high compared to previous science upgrades that I thought I'd never run out of it
14:38:06 <b_jonas> also yay! while I was idle my village attracted its second unicorn, so now I can finally start unicorn industry.
14:40:10 <b_jonas> oh wow, I made my cats too happy
14:40:49 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106106&oldid=106105 * Grs * (+406)
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14:49:50 <int-e> Well you need to store a lot of books for philosophy
14:58:44 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm still baffled why those unicorns eluded you for so long. Surely you sent out hunters?
15:05:16 <fizzie> I've got a red science update because it needs 23.75M science, which is quite a bit more than anything else has so far (my current cap is 9.37M). :/
15:09:49 <fizzie> There's a point at which science updates start including other things in addition. Because those other things are science-related, the game displays a very high science requirement, so there's even an extra hint text in the description about how you don't need all that science at once.
15:12:52 <GregorR> You haven't done enough science mining?
15:13:01 <GregorR> Didn't send the science miners to the science mine to collect enough science?
15:13:41 <fizzie> The problem is more on managing to keep all that science rather than collecting enough.
15:14:52 <FireFly> int-e: I think the rate for those is very low, so maybe you got lucky and b_jonas got unlucky :p
15:14:55 <GregorR> Ahhh, you need more or more reliable science silos, or you have science rats eating your science stock or something. I see. Maybe you need some science cats to eat the science rats, assuming you have enough science to unlock science cats. (I have no idea what we're talking about)
15:15:27 <FireFly> GregorR: http://kittensgame.com/ seems to have sniped some of the channel
15:16:02 <GregorR> So... talking about science unlocking science cats was more prescient than I could've imagined.
15:16:14 <FireFly> yes :p
15:18:05 <fizzie> Aww, turns out Ibvq Evsgf qba'g nssrpg gur nagvznggre fgbentr pncnpvgl. Jnf ubcvat gurl'q qb. Whfg ohvyg gur svefg bar.
15:18:39 <FireFly> *nod*
15:20:14 <b_jonas> int-e: I sent out hunters, but not very often, usually had only one hunter working at a time, and the expensive Hunting Armor improvement was one of the last things I researched
15:21:02 <int-e> I don't have that one yet.
15:21:36 <int-e> I did send out hunters early though and usually had 2 of them. They brought two unicorns back the first decade.
15:21:46 <int-e> But... maybe I was lucky.
15:22:21 <int-e> I finally have culture though.
15:22:48 <b_jonas> fungot, compared to typical lions, how much more difficult is a pack of carillions?
15:22:48 <fungot> b_jonas: probably. but now tabbed browsing doesn't work properly
15:22:54 <int-e> (I wish they'd display the stat when it's researched rather than when you produce it for the first time)
15:23:27 <b_jonas> GregorR: I think you just can't store science outdoors, they have to be catalogued in libraries and academies
15:24:43 <int-e> Year 27 now btw.
15:29:24 <int-e> Yeah the hunting armor thing is starting to look attractive now.
15:34:54 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106107&oldid=106106 * Grs * (+335)
15:38:43 <b_jonas> well now I have over 15000 science storage, so I can research for the next sciences, but of course the science tab has already revealed technologies that take more science storage than that
15:39:17 <fizzie> FireFly: By the way, do you happen to know jurer oynpxpbva fcrphyngvba unccraf? V erfrnepurq gur Oynpxpunva, ohg pna'g svaq nal arj ohggbaf, rira gubhtu lbh'er fhccbfrq gb or noyr gb genqr eryvpf sbe oynpxpbva.
15:40:30 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106108&oldid=106107 * Grs * (+2275) Truth-machine
15:41:03 <FireFly> I think it's haqre genqvat jvgu yrivngunaf
15:42:17 <fizzie> Ah, okay. Then I guess I can't do it orsber zrrgvat Yrivngunaf, juvpu vf tngrq ol ohvyqvat n Oynpx Clenzvq, juvpu erdhverf haybpxvat Zrtnybznavn svefg. So another of those things I'll look into at year 15000.
15:42:35 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106109&oldid=106108 * Grs * (+38) Truth-machine is yet unfinished
15:42:50 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106110&oldid=106109 * Grs * (+1)
15:42:55 <fizzie> I've been thoroughly spoiled by the wiki at this point. :)
15:45:46 <b_jonas> I don't understand this unicorn industry yet, but I think more things connected to it will be revealed later
15:46:45 <b_jonas> so far I can use unicorns only on ohlvat havpbea cnfgherf, juvpu cebqhpr zber havpbeaf naq erqhpr gur xvggraf' abezny sbbq cebqhpgvba
15:47:33 <fizzie> There's zber havpbea fghss uvqqra oruvaq gung bar rnfvyl zvffnoyr ohvyqvat V zragvbarq lrfgreqnl.
15:47:53 <b_jonas> I see
15:48:22 <FireFly> fizzie: ah right... yeah, so that entire branch is gated for you
15:49:07 <b_jonas> that thing actually has a reasonable cost now, so I'll probably invest in revealing it
15:49:27 <b_jonas> not right now but soon enough
15:49:56 <FireFly> oh the kittens wiki looks Weird now :P
15:50:10 <fizzie> Well, ten kiloyears is not so long, it's... 40M real-world seconds, or 462 days. Okay, it's a bit long.
15:50:10 <FireFly> I guess the wiki software was upgraded at some point
15:51:11 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Welcome to the twentieth international hub of esoteric programming language analysis, adoption, anniversary, and kittens! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
16:04:10 <fizzie> Hmm. Vs lbh (n) trg lbhe cnentba cbvag rirel 1000 pnyraqne lrnef engure guna erny lrnef, naq (o) ner fgvyy ryvtvoyr sbe gur vafnar irefvba 40X lrne npuvrirzrag whfg ol ernpuvat erny lrne 40X, gura V thrff V pbhyq pbzohfg n srj GP'f gb fubegra gung hc.
16:07:47 <FireFly> I don't think both of those hold (but I don't remember very well to be honest)
16:14:28 <b_jonas> huh, V pensgrq n fpnssbyq ohg gur rkcrafvir ohvyqvat vf abg erirnyrq ba gur Obasver gno. qb V arrq gb pnfg n Zrtnyvgu gbb?
16:16:25 <fizzie> b_jonas: Vg pbfgf 50 bs obgu, fb vg zvtug arrq zber bs obgu gb fubj hc. Abg fher rknpgyl.
16:16:52 <b_jonas> ah.
16:17:15 <fizzie> (Naq bar oyhrcevag.)
16:18:37 <b_jonas> well then I'll pensg bar zrtnyvgu gb frr vs gung erirnyf vg, naq vs abg, gura V'yy errinyhngr zl cevbevgvrf. vs gung'f gur pbfg vaqrrq gura V'yy arrq zber jbexfubcf.
16:22:16 <fizzie> FWIW I'm not sure if the thing it unlocks is terribly relevant early on, other than n punapr gb trg bar zber erfbhepr glcr gung tvirf gur +10% unccvarff obbfg ohg vfa'g rngra ol gur terrql pngf.
16:23:32 <b_jonas> the game already revealed another super-expensive thing: gur pbzcraqvhz
16:26:01 <b_jonas> yeah, pensgvat n zrtnyvgu gbb qvqa'g erirny gur rkcrafvir ohvyqvat
16:27:35 <fizzie> Aw. Well, the cost is what it is, and it's not too important now. Qbvat nalguvat jvgu vg gnxrf n ybg bs havpbeaf gbb; ng yrnfg 2500.
16:30:32 <b_jonas> the other expensive thing does promise a relevant bonus, but it's too expensive for now
16:31:49 <b_jonas> I'll look around for what less expensive thing I should go for next
16:36:02 <esolangs> [[Terrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106111&oldid=106110 * Grs * (+245)
16:37:08 <int-e> Oh god, decisions.
17:08:55 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106112&oldid=106082 * Orisphera * (-9) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
17:30:10 <b_jonas> ooh! this technology unlocks multiple things!
17:32:30 <b_jonas> reduces my what? do I even have that?
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17:47:08 <FireFly> :o
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20:01:05 <b_jonas> `? kittens
20:01:07 <HackEso> kittens? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:07:57 <int-e> @where kittens
20:07:57 <lambdabot> I know nothing about kittens.
20:11:30 <b_jonas> perlbot kittens is Kittens Game "https://kittensgame.com/", a contagious video game that #esolangs caught in 2022-01
20:11:30 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored kittens is Kittens Game "https://kittensgame.com/", a contagious video game that #esolangs caught in 2022-01
20:12:01 <b_jonas> perlbot kittens
20:12:01 <perlbot> b_jonas: Kittens Game "https://kittensgame.com/", a contagious video game that #esolangs caught in 2022-01
20:30:59 <fizzie> 2022-01?
20:31:17 <int-e> it's a long incubation period
20:31:22 <fizzie> I see.
20:33:53 <b_jonas> uh
20:33:54 <b_jonas> `datei
20:33:56 <HackEso> 2023-01-14 20:33:55.573 +0000 UTC January 14 Saturday 2023-W02-6
20:34:02 <b_jonas> yeah, haven't got used to that yet
20:35:21 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @echo fact kittens is @@quote d @fact kittens^^=~s/22/23/r^^
20:35:22 <perlbot> b_jonas: Compose failed to find a plugin named: "Kittens
20:35:50 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @echo fact kittens is @quote d @fact kittens^^=~s/22/23/r^^
20:35:50 <perlbot> b_jonas: Error: unmatched closing parenthesis in compose
20:36:03 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @echo fact kittens is @quote d @fact kittens^=~s/22/23/r^^
20:36:03 <perlbot> b_jonas: fact kittens is "Kittens Game \x22https://kittensgame.com/\x22, a contagious video game that \x23esolangs caught in 2022-01=~s/22/23/r"
20:36:13 <int-e> <3
20:36:14 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @echo fact kittens is @quote d @fact kittens^^=~s/22/23/r^
20:36:14 <perlbot> b_jonas: fact kittens is "Kittens Game \x22https://kittensgame.com/\x22, a contagious video game that \x23esolangs caught in 2022-01"=~s/22/23/r
20:36:50 <int-e> (What is this, quoting for beginners?)
20:36:50 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @echo fact kittens is @eval @quote d @fact kittens^^=~s/22/23/r^^
20:36:51 <perlbot> b_jonas: fact kittens is Kittens Game "https://kittensgame.com/", a contagious video game that #esolangs caught in 2023-01
20:37:01 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @fact kittens is @eval @quote d @fact kittens^^=~s/22/23/r^^
20:37:02 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored kittens is Kittens Game "https://kittensgame.com/", a contagious video game that #esolangs caught in 2023-01
20:37:11 <b_jonas> that shouldn't have taken so many tries
20:38:14 <b_jonas> perlbot kittesn
20:38:15 <perlbot> b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [kitties] [kthx] [k thx] [klaxon] [kaitlyn] [bitcoin] [ehtsham] [patogen] [kingemer] [botsnack]
20:38:19 <b_jonas> perlbot kittens
20:38:19 <perlbot> b_jonas: Kittens Game "https://kittensgame.com/", a contagious video game that #esolangs caught in 2023-01
20:38:40 <b_jonas> there's probably already a macro for this, a sedlearn or something
20:39:36 <leah2> oh no
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20:55:06 <b_jonas> apparently a lot of things are locked behind fgrry
20:59:14 <int-e> I probably won't get far in this game... I closed it again in year 31.
21:00:57 <int-e> I was about halfway in my research towards fgrry.
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21:06:31 <int-e> we have pastures but they don't produce fur
21:10:56 <esolangs> [[Cathain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106113 * Nurdle * (+1893) Created the article
21:13:58 <fizzie> There's a building type that consumes gold and catpower, and produces furs and ivory.
21:14:10 <fizzie> Which is effectively what sending hunters does, except as a passive effect.
21:14:25 <esolangs> [[User:Nurdle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106114&oldid=105469 * Nurdle * (+53) /* Esolangs */
21:15:20 <esolangs> [[User:Nurdle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106115&oldid=106114 * Nurdle * (+109) /* Implementations */
21:15:40 <fizzie> Oh, I guess sending hunters doesn't actually cost any gold.
21:15:54 <fizzie> Anyway.
21:16:40 <fizzie> Maybe the in-universe rationale is, the cats working in the building get paid in gold? Though you'd think hunters have to get paid too. Hmm.
21:18:18 <b_jonas> maybe they're making luxury items, gilded, that are effectively equivalent consumables as furs and ivory, just not made from real hunted animals?
21:18:28 <b_jonas> nah, that would be weird for cats
21:19:16 <int-e> FWIW, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kittens-buildings2.png ...I may be a bit too focussed on science. I don't know.
21:20:08 <b_jonas> I'm not hurrying the science right now, I'm doing science slowly and spending most of my resources on buildings to get bonuses
21:20:44 <fizzie> I was pretty focused at going through the science tree, FWIW.
21:20:53 <b_jonas> like I just got enough academies and libraries to have 20_000 science storage space, a bunch of lumber mills, mines, warehouses, and now I want to spend more on workshops
21:21:10 <b_jonas> workshops before warehouses would have been more logical... oh well
21:22:17 <int-e> You're forced into the rest anyway. Some interesting stuff is locked behind 1000 cat power, and other stuff is locked behind getting furs en masse (where I kind of hope steel will help... maybe you get better knifes or something)
21:23:44 <int-e> Eh. I think I'll slowly push this to year 101 and then maybe stop, unless I still find it interesting. I can go to wiki and/or dissect the source code to see what I'm missing.
21:23:56 <fizzie> Can't build more workshops, because the next one would need 20.74M minerals (and 5.19M wood), and my cap is just 18.67M minerals (and 15.54M wood). There's always something.
21:24:03 <fizzie> Guess that's just how it goes though. The storage cap increases from adding buildings are linear, but the price growth is exponential.
21:24:05 <int-e> I don't really enjoy having stuff run constantly in the background.
21:24:16 <int-e> Or being forced to wait, really.
21:25:32 <int-e> I'm not made for this. If it's running I have to check every minute that nothing catastrophic happened. Kittens might die!
21:26:42 <fizzie> I'd just roll back to a previous save if any did die. :) Anyway, as long as all the production rates have a + sign in them even in a cold winter, there's not much that can go wrong.
21:27:09 <int-e> I've had negative food production in every winter so far.
21:28:34 <fizzie> It's probably more optimal to do that, otherwise you waste effort in other seasons, but yeah, it's kind of worrying.
21:29:02 <b_jonas> "locked behind 1000 cat power" => I don't think I can increase catpower storage without admitting a lot more kittens, and I don't want that yet.
21:29:05 <b_jonas> "
21:29:20 <int-e> fizzie: Oh there's also the fact that I send a party of hunters out every 100 seconds.
21:29:30 <int-e> b_jonas: sme
21:29:33 <int-e> +a
21:30:21 <b_jonas> "locked behind getting furs en masse" => that helps for making parchments. I already did some of that, but you don't need all that much because you can store parchments and manuscripts, I don't have to spend all the furs at the same time. unless there's something else requiring furs other than parchment that I don't know of yet.
21:30:35 <fizzie> There's a thing that can make a building contribute to the maximum catpower, but it's quite a bit later.
21:30:39 <b_jonas> oh right, it's trade that's locked behind lots of catpower
21:30:58 <int-e> All the parchments I've had went into amphitheatres. I have two.
21:31:38 <int-e> Anyway. The fact is I can't keep this running in the background as is, so I won't get very far unless that changes drastically.
21:31:39 <fizzie> If you want to keep the happiness up but still have a bunch of kittens, amphitheatres are kind of a must-have.
21:32:51 <b_jonas> I researched steel
21:33:12 <fizzie> (Amphitheatres do have a diminishing returns kind of thing going on though.)
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21:35:14 <b_jonas> hmm. will steel let me craft locks so I can build huts or log houses closed to new kittens, used only for storing catpower?
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21:35:31 <b_jonas> I don't want so many new kittens as would be needed for 1000 catpower
21:35:39 <b_jonas> but also I'm not too interested in trade at the moment eithr
21:36:21 <fizzie> So you'd want to build some housing not for anyone to live in, just for investment purposes? Quite... modern.
21:36:28 <int-e> Hmmmmmm. Sell the huts, make log houses instead. (Unrealistic, that's way too much wood.)
21:37:54 <int-e> But, I'd have 150 extra catpower capacity if I did that.
21:38:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: they'd be storehouses. I get enough running water and heating in them so they can later easily get reconfigured to living quarters without having to tear down everything, but they'd be storehouses for now.
21:38:56 <int-e> b_jonas: I think the idea is that the power comes from the kittens though.
21:39:10 <int-e> The houses are just a proxy for that.
21:39:39 <int-e> It's very political, singles are more powerful than couples taken as two individuals.
21:40:03 <b_jonas> hmm
21:40:16 <b_jonas> so it charges the kitten's fur with electricity and that stores the power?
21:40:22 <b_jonas> they're capacitors
21:40:27 <int-e> hehe
21:40:47 <int-e> electrostatic charges can be very painful... beware
21:40:55 <int-e> err, discharges rather
21:41:24 <b_jonas> ok, so I researched steel, but I can't use it until I get the coal furnace improvement in workshop
21:41:53 <int-e> That... makes sense, technologically.
21:42:18 <int-e> (I don't think I've seen that upgrade.)
21:42:21 <b_jonas> yes, but was coal furnace even unlocked before steel?
21:42:26 <int-e> But I imagine you're 20 years ahead of me or so.
21:43:26 <b_jonas> I had a lot of things unlocked that require steel, and at least one thing that required coal, so I was looking for coal, and I don't think that was unlocked, but maybe I just wasn't looking
21:44:09 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think you can get any coal before researching Steel.
21:45:10 <b_jonas> I've had things that cost gears unlocked for a while, and even gears was unlocked, but I couldn't make them without steam
21:46:01 <int-e> I imagine that's "steel". Actually, I've seen gears, so I know it's steel.
21:46:24 <int-e> Though I guess that without steel they *are* vaporware.
21:46:26 <b_jonas> yes, s/without steam/without steel/
21:49:29 <b_jonas> also I have fgrnzjbexf unlocked, and that's not usable without coal, but it won't be usable even with coal and steel available, because it needs oyhrcevagf. I think I get that from researching cevagvat cerff, but I'm not entirely sure because the description for that says it lets you nhgbzngvpnyyl cevag znahfpevcgf, which is odd because I can already make znahfpevcgf, and so I'm confused what the
21:49:35 <b_jonas> relation between znahfpevcgf and oyhrcevagf is.
21:50:25 <int-e> if the effects are similar (I haven't seen oyhrcevagf) maybe the diminishing effects are separate?
21:50:42 <b_jonas> now I have several different upgrades unlocked in the workshop and I'll have to pick from among them. after coal furnace presumably. some of them look reasonable, some look very expensive.
21:51:08 <fizzie> Yeah, the cevagvat cerff just makes znahfpevcgf. It just gives you them automatically, from nowhere, instead of crafting them.
21:51:14 <b_jonas> int-e: but it's not just the side effects that I care about, oyhrcevagf are used as direct cost in the fgrnzjbexf
21:51:17 <int-e> I have to make a policy choice and I don't like it.
21:51:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: but if that's not it, then how do I get oyhrcevagf?
21:51:53 <fizzie> Mostly by trade, early on.
21:52:00 <b_jonas> ok
21:52:16 <int-e> Ah, so a bit like unicorns?
21:52:22 <b_jonas> so I'm not just missing a button hidden somewhere, and they definitely aren't free like Factorio blueprints
21:52:41 <fizzie> Any trade (with anyone) can occasinally give you one oyhrcevag.
21:52:42 <esolangs> [[Cathain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106116&oldid=106113 * Nurdle * (-121) fixed the output
21:52:43 <int-e> "You have to do that weird thing that has no immediate use, otherwise you're not going to get this other thing that's not even mentioned)
21:52:46 <int-e> "
21:53:16 <b_jonas> yeah, "You have a small chance of getting rare resources.", says trade
21:53:27 <int-e> (The similarity is quite direct: Any hunt will occasionally give you a unicorn.)
21:54:04 <b_jonas> ok, I'll ignore the fgrnzjbexf for now then, and concentrate on the workshop uprgades, as well as buying a few more workshops
21:54:23 <fizzie> You can in fact eventually craft oyhrcevagf in the workshop, but it's quite expensive, and not actually unlocked until approximately halfway through the tech tree.
21:54:25 <b_jonas> I'm going to need more and more crafting so it's worth to buy workshops
21:54:53 <b_jonas> "approximately halfway through the tech tree." => I have no indication of how long the tech tree is so I don't know what that means
21:56:32 <b_jonas> hmm wait, there's another workshop upgrade that can produce coal
21:56:36 <b_jonas> deep mining
21:56:59 <fizzie> Yeah, those are both unlocked by the steel tech, you get two ways to make coal.
21:56:59 <b_jonas> I probably want both
21:57:08 <b_jonas> hehe, the flavor text for Deep Mining is fun
21:57:23 <int-e> does it allude to scamcoins?
21:57:47 <b_jonas> no
21:58:52 <b_jonas> Factorio and Mindustry both give you two ways to get coal, and Factorio Industrial Revolution 3 gives you three ways, so this is a popular arrangement
22:00:49 <fizzie> If I read the boxes right, my base coal production is 1.53/s from mines, 3.51/s from smelters, and 18.24/s from a third thing, plus a couple of general production bonuses giving a total of 8660.18/s.
22:01:49 <fizzie> It's really those multiplicative bonuses that tend to make the numbers meaningfully bigger.
22:02:00 <b_jonas> (technically in IR one of the three ways gives you charcoal, which is not quite the same as coal)
22:02:33 <b_jonas> yes, this game is very much dominated by all the bonuses
22:05:56 <fizzie> int-e: By the way, you don't *have* to make policy choices, you can just leave them hanging.
22:06:21 <fizzie> I still have one (from the 5000 culture cost tier) where I've picked neither option.
22:06:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's also what I'm thinking, I don't like almost any of the policies that are offered to me
22:09:46 <int-e> fizzie: Hmm, for liberty/traditionalism there seems to be no downside, except for blocking the alternative.
22:10:09 <fizzie> Yeah, I think many of them (at least later on) are just straight bonuses, with no downsides, where the only reasons why you might not pick one would be what you might call "roleplaying". Just because you can only pick one beneficial thing doesn't mean you shouldn't still pick one.
22:10:49 <int-e> I did punt on strip mining and deforestation.
22:11:19 <int-e> (That's the earliest decision you can make.)
22:11:28 <FireFly> fizzie: still requires making a choice :p
22:11:32 <FireFly> (that's permanent for that run)
22:11:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, Stoicism is the one that's silly from the role-playing perspective
22:12:04 <fizzie> Yes. Also some of them have "downstream" effects in the policy tree, in terms of what you can pick later on. Which is a bit rude.
22:12:17 <int-e> fizzie: exactly!
22:12:38 <int-e> I don't mind the choice so much as the downward effect of reducing later choices.
22:12:43 <int-e> err, downstream
22:13:11 <fizzie> There's also one policy that costs 7500 culture, has the description text of "Has no effect", and to my knowledge in fact has no effect.
22:13:13 <int-e> Though story-wise this does make sense.
22:13:21 <fizzie> Other than of course subtracting 7500 culture.
22:13:29 <int-e> But it hinders exploration.
22:13:35 <b_jonas> and locking out other 7500 cultures I presume
22:13:42 <fizzie> There are no others.
22:13:48 <fizzie> It's just on its own.
22:14:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: are you sure? sometimes cultures are not unlocked at the same time, and that's the case for the third 2000 cost one next to strip mining and clear cutting
22:14:23 <b_jonas> s/cultures/policies/
22:15:22 <fizzie> Yes. I mean, later versions of the game could hypothetically change that. But at least according to the wiki, it has no counterparts, and also no effect.
22:15:58 <FireFly> I should pick some policies
22:16:05 <fizzie> I did still "choose" it at the point when I just naturally had sufficient culture for other reasons.
22:16:33 <b_jonas> a lot of these policies are annoying because the role-playing aspect clashes with what the mechanics want to make me choose
22:18:22 <fizzie> The zebra thing is the only one I've not picked either option for. Although it'd be nice if they had a "no effect except blocking the other two" choice for that, just to get rid of the button.
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22:22:12 <b_jonas> huh, so Deep Mining has mines produce coal without kittens working in it
22:22:22 <b_jonas> the miner kittens only mine the minerals
22:22:32 <b_jonas> only the shiny things
22:22:33 <int-e> very mechanical
22:22:52 <int-e> I mean the coal mining must be very mechanical, perhaps even automated.
22:23:11 <fizzie> There's also one technology thing that gets unlocked relatively early on (after the thing that requires 20K science), and then it itself requires 650K of science and 5 of a thing that will take a very long time to get to, meaning that button will just hang out there, teasing.
22:23:14 <b_jonas> coal powered probably
22:23:34 <fizzie> (Pretty sure that's really there for subsequent, post-reset runs, for people keeping resources from past runs.)
22:24:25 <b_jonas> it makes sense, Catnip fields, Amphitheatres, Unic. Pastures all produce resources without kittens driving them
22:24:47 <b_jonas> and I think Pastures effectively do too, though it's not quite clear if they do or if they give a per kitten production
22:27:15 <FireFly> fizzie: I think that's an intentional tease that has one question whether it's obtainable :p
22:29:59 <fizzie> Possibly that, too. But AIUI gur pelcgbgurbybtl hctenqrf fgvpx nebhaq cbfg-erfrg (ohg gur pelcgbgurbybtl grpu vgfrys qbrfa'g), fb V jnf guvaxvat vg'f nyfb gurer fb lbh pna haybpx vg rneyl jvgu lbhe fnirq eryvpf.
22:30:53 <FireFly> ah yeah, probably
22:31:09 <FireFly> (and that's accurate)
22:34:28 <FireFly> I'm slowly approaching one of the first big walls in the game :P
22:34:35 <FireFly> kinda
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22:42:51 <b_jonas> also one of the workshop upgrades that got revealed costs 25 scaffolds
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22:43:21 <b_jonas> and the scary thing is that that only seems very expensive to me, not so expensive that I should just ignore that upgrade
22:44:04 <b_jonas> I may run out of workspace upgrades so I have to consider that, depending on what Theology unlocks
22:47:16 <fizzie> That's in fact the thing that unlocks the other thing that you can't unlock in a long while. (Among many other things.)
22:49:19 <b_jonas> wait, Theology costs 35 manuscripts
22:49:30 <b_jonas> that sounds like I won't get that until printing press
22:50:46 <b_jonas> most things that I have access to now are very expensive, a few are just expensive
23:06:48 <fizzie> Yeah, they start adding more things than just pure science into the technologies.
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23:13:43 <b_jonas> yeah, the pasture says "Catnip demand reduction: -0.5%" so it's likely per kitten
23:14:14 <b_jonas> I wonder if that means that 200 pastures would make the kittens not eat at all. but maybe the 200th has an infinite cost.
23:17:26 <int-e> the unicorn pastures also reduce food consumption
23:18:25 <int-e> b_jonas: Also, if you get 201, will the kittens start producing food?
23:19:54 <fizzie> Most things like that have a "diminishing returns" adjustment applied at some point, with (situation-specific) caps at which point it starts/ends.
23:21:30 <fizzie> So it'll work the way that up to (for example) 75% the actual effect is the same as the one shown, but then it'll start to scale so that at "100%" it's actually a bit under 90%, and it'll approach (but never reach) 100%.
23:22:09 <fizzie> Not that that really matters for unicorn pastures, because their cost in unicorns really ramps up, and the benefit in catnip demand reduction really isn't all that relevant after some point.
23:22:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, I mean this for normal pastures, not unicorn pastures
23:23:20 <b_jonas> but you have a point, unicorn pastures provide the same bonus, so you need less than 200 normal pastures
23:23:50 <int-e> b_jonas: I rather suspect the author has done the math
23:24:34 <fizzie> Oh, right. I think pastures have the same diminishing returns thing, though they're definitely more relevant than unicorn pastures, and the price ramps up much more slowly.
23:24:54 <fizzie> I don't remember how many pastures I had at the peak, but I think it was somewhere between 100-200.
23:25:29 <int-e> One easy thing to do would be to apply all reductions multiplicatively.
23:25:46 <fizzie> (They're one of those buildings that has an "upgrade", that I at least postponed for quite a while because of the tradeoffs. The upgraded building doesn't do anything to catnip demand.)
23:26:14 <int-e> But then you don't get round numbers, and there are plenty of different ways to limit the reduction.
23:26:44 <fizzie> As for unicorn pastures, they definitely have a higher-than-normal price multiplier, because I've only built 25 of them, and the next one already costs 1.63 million 'corns.
23:27:09 <b_jonas> by the way, I got both coal techs, plus I now have 26 workshops, and that's where I put the game away for today
23:27:44 <int-e> Which year are you at?
23:28:17 <b_jonas> tomorrow I'll buy a few more workshops, think of how many more cats I want to admit to the village (it's hard because I don't dare to just kick them out or starve them if it's too many), and look at which of the expensive or very expensive things I want to get
23:28:45 <fizzie> Death is the only way out for kittens, I believe.
23:28:49 <b_jonas> int-e: year 129, but some of that was just leaving the game running last night even though it just filled up everything to the storage limit and then did nothing
23:29:21 <int-e> Yeah that's part of what I meant when I said that the early game isn't much of an idle game.
23:29:25 <b_jonas> and a false start at the start of the game where I somehow had 8 kittens total starve
23:29:42 <int-e> It kind of wants your attention... hmm... every 5 minutes or so where I am.
23:29:48 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah
23:31:03 <int-e> I kind of want a version of this game that lets you skip ahead to the next event, keeping track of the time you *would* have taken.
23:31:15 <b_jonas> it promises to be more of an idle game later, with Something Automation and Steamworks perhaps
23:31:59 <fizzie> It takes a bit, but you can definitely make it so that it'll at least keep increasing all your craftable stuff without paying any attention to it.
23:33:27 <fizzie> (And since those don't have caps, it's not "wasted".)
23:33:51 <b_jonas> part of the annoyance is that I want less than a whole kitten on hunting, and the catpower storage limit is too low so I have to swap jobs quickly
23:40:55 <b_jonas> so yes, that building that you mention earlier might help in the future
23:45:21 <fizzie> Yes. Though not for putting a fractional kitten for catpower generation. But by adjusting the number of those buildings, you can use up the catpower generated.
23:48:42 <b_jonas> yep, it's another outlet to spend catpower so I can keep one whole cat on hunting for a longer time without filling up the storage
23:49:23 <b_jonas> I could of course also spend a ton of furs on manuscripts, but it doesn't seem like that's worth now
23:49:43 <b_jonas> right now I'd prefer to have half a cat on hunting and the other half on the more common tasks like mining or woodcutting
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