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10:53:00 * FireFly constructing Bofreingbevrf
11:07:38 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106120&oldid=104363 * Grs * (-70) /* Deadfish */
11:08:05 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106121&oldid=106120 * Grs * (-8)
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13:35:55 <b_jonas> whoa. I have 26 workshops, and one more is not possible right now because of my minerals storage capacity, even though I've been building warehouses and even a barn. the minerals storage limit never came up so far.
13:39:15 <b_jonas> I need to go for the printing press now because a lot of things cost manuscripts, including Theology, Temple
13:41:34 <b_jonas> heck this printing press is very expensive. I might be missing somethign
13:41:55 <b_jonas> maybe I just need more smelters
13:51:03 <b_jonas> hmm, this still says I need over three hours to get enough coal for printing press
13:51:35 <b_jonas> does that mean I should increase my mineral storage even further so I can build more workshops?
13:52:29 <b_jonas> yeah, I should probably go for reinforced warehouses first
13:54:39 <FireFly> more storage and more workshops never hurt
13:54:57 <b_jonas> my minerals lstorage limit is 15_040
13:55:04 <FireFly> but idk how much printing press would help over crafting manuscripts at that point
13:55:36 <b_jonas> but yes, that's what I have to do. I can get the Reinforced Warehouses workshop upgrade in less than an hour, and that'll increase minerals storage significantly, and then I can build a few more warehouses and barns
13:55:51 <fizzie> I imagine it helps if you plan to idle a lot.
13:56:40 <b_jonas> I don't see how I'd get enough fur to craft so many manuscripts
13:57:08 <b_jonas> though I guess at this point I should consider increasing my population a bit too
13:57:13 <FireFly> probably
13:57:27 <FireFly> how many kittens do you have?
13:58:01 <FireFly> happiness shouldn't really be that much of an issue at that point I don't think
13:59:07 <b_jonas> yeah, I can increase my population. I have 11 only and I want to be conservative because I don't want to have to kill kittens.
13:59:44 <fizzie> Hmm, these kitties are 276% happy, I think that's changed from last I saw it and I'm not entirely sure why.
14:00:07 <FireFly> b_jonas: yeah, you probably want a lot more kittens than that.. as long as you have some farmers I don't see why the worry
14:00:29 <b_jonas> I don't know how overpopulated they'll feel
14:00:34 <FireFly> you can definitely still be conservative and ensure positive catnip even in a cold winter if you want to be sure to not kill anyone off
14:00:39 <FireFly> mm fair
14:00:51 <FireFly> amphitheatres should help address that
14:01:09 <b_jonas> I don't need positive catnip in the winter. I have 50_000 catnip storage, I can survive more than a winter with no catnip income
14:01:23 <b_jonas> most of the time I don't have farmers at all
14:02:37 <fizzie> I have 56.45M catnip storage and still keep it positive in all circumstances. :)
14:03:04 <FireFly> I have.. 55 kittens now and 30 workshops/catnip limit 62.5K (but I think maybe a bit further ahead wrt science)
14:03:11 <b_jonas> I'll just have to remember not to go as low when refining catnip
14:04:15 <FireFly> you're probably better off to build some more huts and just allocate some woodcutters over refining catnip at that point (and probably add some farmers to compensate for more kittens, esp since farmers aren't affected by season/weather)
14:05:14 <b_jonas> yeah, I just built more huts. and I do get the majority of my wood from woodcutters, but I refine catnip because it reaches the max storage quickly and it's pointless to just let it go to waste
14:05:34 <FireFly> yeah fair
14:05:52 <FireFly> I've been doing that but only down to maybe 30K to have a pretty big safe buffer
14:06:07 <b_jonas> I have 16 kittens now, they're at 112% happiness with furs and ivory and consume 63/s food then, which means max storage catnip is enough for close to two years. I'll see in a moment what happiness they get with no furs and no ivory.
14:06:57 <FireFly> each of those should add +10%
14:07:02 <FireFly> well, percentage points
14:07:31 <fizzie> So 102% with one, and 92% with none.
14:07:42 <b_jonas> the extra loghouses have the secondary advantage of a bit more catpower storage
14:07:47 <b_jonas> (I built loghouses, not huts)
14:07:52 <int-e> none being one, because unicorns always count
14:08:06 <int-e> (unless, maybe, you see the unicorn pastures and spend all the unicorns somehow)
14:08:06 <fizzie> Right.
14:08:12 <int-e> see -> sell
14:08:15 <FireFly> hovering over the orange happiness thing should give you the breakdown
14:08:35 <fizzie> "Rare resources: +99%"
14:08:36 <b_jonas> by the way, should I be promoting kittens more often? mine are only rank 1 and rank 2
14:08:59 <b_jonas> orange happiness thing where?
14:09:14 <FireFly> in the top bar, where it says 112%
14:09:19 <b_jonas> I'll have more gold now because I'm mass smelting
14:09:22 <b_jonas> ah
14:09:28 <FireFly> with an outline of a cat (that used to be saying (:3) in a previous version, heh)
14:09:33 <b_jonas> thank you
14:10:00 <b_jonas> anyway, yes, 91% without furs
14:10:07 <fizzie> The production tooltips still use "(:3) Village".
14:10:07 <b_jonas> so they aren't too overpopulated
14:10:55 <FireFly> it'll probably quickly go down as you get more kittens, but amphitheatres should also quickly counter that if you try to build some of those
14:11:25 <FireFly> with my 55 kittens I have 118% happiness currently (penalty base: -104%, penalty mitigated: 75% -> population penalty: -29%)
14:11:47 <fizzie> My 276% is from base 100% + buildings 70% + rare resources 99% - population 540% + mitigated 539% + environment 8%.
14:12:00 <b_jonas> I'll go with just 16 kittens now, I can still more easily attract more later than send them away
14:12:06 <FireFly> that's fair
14:12:32 <FireFly> I'm trying to convince mroenf to give me gvgnavhz
14:12:40 <b_jonas> now I just have to pay attention to all the crafting
14:12:58 <FireFly> (to be honest, that's probably parseable even without de-rot13, or at least inferrabel)
14:13:00 <FireFly> inferrable*
14:13:08 <b_jonas> probably some trade thing
14:13:43 <fizzie> FireFly: I've finally got mroenf gb or arhgeny, abj gung vg ernyyl qbrfa'g znxr zhpu bs n qvssrerapr.
14:14:37 <FireFly> oh I didn't know it's possible to get them to that point, I think that might also be new
14:15:03 <fizzie> I think it's from having sufficient tradeposts and/or embassies, not sure which.
14:15:16 <fizzie> I guess I could cvpx Mroen Eryngvbaf: Oryyvpbfvgl whfg gb fcvgr gurz abj.
14:15:26 <FireFly> I think I saw the embassies, but only when previously like, taking a look to see if anything changed since I played properly
14:15:41 <FireFly> so I'm still a bit fuzzy on the mechanics of those
14:15:49 <FireFly> fizzie: :p
14:16:37 <b_jonas> also don't tempt me, I'm trying to not learn any rot13, just as I'm trying to not learn the digits and letters of the vision test charts, and both are hard
14:17:19 <FireFly> oops
14:18:12 <b_jonas> they're at least no longer using the 42 chart for serious purposes on me anymore, which helps, but the new vision test chart also only has 30 letters and 30 numbers, 10+10 in each of three sizes, so that doesn't sound like I can keep not learning it for my whole lifetime
14:18:35 <b_jonas> hopefully by then technology gets cheaper so they can get new sets of letters and digits in the projectsr
14:21:57 <fizzie> Back home the vision tests all used this thing which only contains the letter E, but it's in the four possible orientations.
14:22:14 <fizzie> And then you just say "up", "down", "left", "right", depending.
14:22:31 <fizzie> I guess you could still learn the directions though.
14:22:55 <fizzie> Assuming they don't have a set of differently randomized ones.
14:23:06 <b_jonas> yes, there's a set of three charts with the same layout as the 42, one is the 42 one with digits, one with letters, and one with hands in three different rotations (so young children that don't yet know digits or even left and right can show the directions on their hand)
14:23:11 <int-e> . o O ( especially if you have trouble keeping left and right apart )
14:23:14 <b_jonas> forks or epsilons really
14:23:38 <b_jonas> all three have been used for decades
14:23:56 <int-e> Isn't there also a circle-with-gap one?
14:25:04 <b_jonas> not with the same layout as these as far as I recall
14:27:57 <fizzie> "These include Snellen Chart, LogMAR Chart, Jaeger Chart, E Chart, and Landolt C Chart."
14:28:15 <fizzie> The last one is apparently circle-with-a-gap.
14:29:26 <int-e> Ah that explains the C name.
14:37:14 <b_jonas> am I missing something for how to increase my coal production? I don't have a steamworks yet
14:37:59 <b_jonas> I have both coal-producing Workshop upgrades
14:38:10 <b_jonas> I guess coal is just slow
14:41:52 <b_jonas> I could buy even more smelters I guess, but I have 17 now
14:44:12 <b_jonas> more workshops will help I guess, since the productivity applies twice to gears but only once to plates
14:44:37 <fizzie> It's pretty slow. Most of my coal production is from not-a-building, but that gets unlocked later.
14:45:59 <fizzie> (Also turning steamworks on has a really hefty penalty on coal production.)
14:46:21 <b_jonas> I don't have a steamworks yet, it seems like I couldn't use it yet
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15:08:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: I can understand why you want to keep catnip production positive: the crafting section of the left column has a button to refine all your catnip to wood, so if I clicked that in the winter that would be an almost instant starve all kittens button. (almost instant because technically I'd have up to 50 catnip left, so I may have more than a second of grace time to start farming)
15:24:24 <FireFly> at some point it's just a nice insurance to put like one or two kittens on farming when it's enough to sustain your hundreds of kittens
15:24:30 <FireFly> even if there's a slight "waste"
15:25:30 <b_jonas> yeah, but right now I'd need 3 out of 16 kittens to guarantee that
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15:33:36 <b_jonas> bam! Reinforced Warehouses
15:37:51 <fizzie> Oh, hey, it's year 6008, welcome to the new millennium.
15:50:08 <int-e> b_jonas: . o O ( aka storage tanks )
15:51:32 <fizzie> Ohh, it's the leader's trait that the little symbol in the tab titles is indicating.
15:51:38 <fizzie> I've pretty much permanently had a scientist leader, and was wondering why there's a small atom symbol next to the "Science" tab.
15:52:34 <fizzie> Now I switched to something else because there isn't really any science to buy, except for one upgrade that costs 25M science that I can't afford any time soon.
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16:06:43 <b_jonas> I had to produce extra iron with the coal, so I'm now buying two Lumber Mills
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16:11:04 <b_jonas> then I'll buy workshops now that I have the larger mineral storage limit, and might also buy a barn, and then once the warehouses make crafting cheaper I'll buy more warehouses
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16:19:18 <b_jonas> I guess I may as well hunt a bit more and craft some manuscripts, since my culture storage is full
17:01:39 <fizzie> I've got culture pretty much permanently at cap, with culture production wasted, since there isn't really an obvious sink for it.
17:03:47 <int-e> (Nor a way to limit its production.)
17:03:58 <fizzie> Incidentally, speaking of those percent effects, I've built 83 tradeposts, each gives -4% reduction in furs/ivory/spice consumption, shift-hovering on the building indicates all three are "X demand reduction: -332.00%", but the kittens are still consuming a little bit.
17:04:15 <fizzie> Instead of having started paradoxically to produce those things.
17:06:56 <b_jonas> oops, I forgot that steel production also unlocks this Steel Axe upgrade. I should have researched that long ago.
17:07:41 <b_jonas> well, not very long ago, but earlier today, before Reinforced Warehouses and Steel Armour
17:51:33 <b_jonas> nice! this is the first time in game that I have barns maxed out in that I can't buy another barn because the wood storage capacity isn't enough for the next one
17:52:09 <b_jonas> I think this is only temporary because I can still buy warehouses
17:52:32 <b_jonas> but also now I have enough storage space to buy yet another workshop
17:52:36 <b_jonas> I have 28 right now
17:55:29 <b_jonas> ok, so next I want to build workshops and warehouses and buy Printing Press
17:55:34 <b_jonas> the upgrade that is
18:00:02 <b_jonas> er... maybe I shouldn't have waited till the start of spring to buy the catnip field?
18:00:50 <b_jonas> it didn't go bad, but I should think before I click that button
18:29:13 <b_jonas> warehouses are technically infinite because they're built from resources that don't have a storage limit
18:31:35 <b_jonas> but of course their price rises so there's a practical limit
19:11:09 <b_jonas> drat, I misclicked
19:11:22 <b_jonas> sold a bunch of smelters
19:12:10 <b_jonas> now I can see why the options has a setting to hide the sell button
19:12:45 <FireFly> there's rarely a reason to sell buildings, so I just keep the button disabled apart from the off-chance that I want it for some reason
19:13:04 <FireFly> you might be able to undo the sale though?
19:13:05 <FireFly> not sure
19:13:12 <b_jonas> you can undo only one step
19:13:15 <FireFly> ah yeah
19:13:25 <b_jonas> I was trying to click on the minus button several times to turn off some smelters
19:13:51 <b_jonas> doesn't matter, they aren't too expensive
19:14:06 <b_jonas> not the worst misclick
19:14:18 <b_jonas> ok I bought all of them back now
19:17:40 <FireFly> that was quick
19:17:56 <b_jonas> selling them does return part of the cost
19:18:09 <b_jonas> I think I sold five or six, and could immediately buy back like half of it
19:18:35 <b_jonas> I had 17 total and that's what I bought back up to
19:19:03 <b_jonas> anyway, I'm starting to collect coal and steel for the expensive Print Works upgrade now
19:19:27 <b_jonas> this will take more than an hour for the steel
19:20:00 <b_jonas> also the coal storage limit is low so I have to spend it on steel regularly
19:21:27 <esolangs> [[Post-Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106122&oldid=105999 * Ais523 * (-31) is usable for programming because +-,.<>[] all have the same functionality as in brainfuck, thus it's trivial to compile brainfuck programs into this language
19:24:01 <b_jonas> my kittens are now all at least rank 2
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20:43:06 <esolangs> [[User:Nurdle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106123&oldid=106115 * Nurdle * (+15) /* Esolangs */
21:04:15 <b_jonas> ok, I've got the Printing Press research, but I can't use it until I get a blueprint from trade
21:04:26 <b_jonas> so I have to look into trade now, I haven't done any of that yet
21:10:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fallow64 * New user account
21:16:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106124&oldid=106086 * Fallow64 * (+144) me!
21:16:37 <b_jonas> hmm, I must have misclicked on Log House while trying to build academies because I suddenly have 17 kittens
21:17:57 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106125&oldid=105737 * Fallow64 * (+1) typo: changed "replace" to past tense
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21:46:15 <b_jonas> hehe, I found a minor bug
21:47:11 <b_jonas> I built a warehouse, which raised my mineral storage limit enough that I can now collect for the next workshop (I have 30), but the workshop button remained red text until I switched away and back to bonfire
21:48:32 <int-e> hmm did you pawse?
21:48:40 <b_jonas> no, I didn't try pawse
21:49:04 <b_jonas> also why is that spelled pawse instead of paws? isn't it paws traditionally since Lemmings?
21:49:16 <b_jonas> hmm wait, Lemmings doesn't actually spell it out, it just has a paws icon
21:51:02 <int-e> wait, is that why lemmings had that button
21:53:03 <b_jonas> yes
22:05:34 <b_jonas> ok, so now I just have to trade until I get a blueprint
22:06:51 <b_jonas> I got spice
22:06:55 <b_jonas> from trade
22:14:31 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if I should invest in a temple
22:20:25 <b_jonas> I probably should.
22:24:56 <b_jonas> do trading posts make it more likely to get rare resources from trade?
22:26:46 <b_jonas> heck, so I need 1 blueprint to build the (first) Steamworks, and 5 more blueprints to research High Pressure Engine
22:27:17 <b_jonas> also lots of more manuscripts
22:33:25 <fizzie> I don't think tradeposts affect the blueprint or spice success rate, or the blueprint amount (it seems to always stay at 1), but the trading efficiency they boost might give you more spice per trade.
22:35:16 <b_jonas> I bought a temple and will buy a few more amphitheatres
22:35:35 <b_jonas> then I'll go grind all the culture and fur and science that I need for Theology
22:36:09 <b_jonas> I'm leaving the trade for blueprint to after that
22:36:49 <b_jonas> Theology might open up something new of course
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22:41:34 <b_jonas> current stats: 17 kittens in village. year 170. buildings: 77 catnip field, 32 pasture, 30 aqueduct, 5 hut, 7 log house, 37 library, 29 academy, 11 barn, 27 warehouse, 30 mine, 27 lumber mill, 0 steamworks, 17 smelter, 8 amphitheatre, 1 temple, 31 workshop, 4 tradepost, 12 unic. pasture. I have no policies, all science before Theology, many workshop updates where the missing ones shown are: Titanium
22:41:40 <b_jonas> barns (needs titanium), Ironwood huts (needs much more science storage), Workshop automation (I'll be able to get this soon enough but currently have no need of it), High pressure engine (needs 5 blueprints).
22:42:52 <b_jonas> ok, now I need to create 19 more manuscripts for Theology. the craft productivity bonus from the 31 workshops will help here.
22:44:09 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/buildings.png but it's of course heavily spoilerrific.
22:44:37 <fizzie> Oh, it's a cold winter going on in the screenshot.
22:45:33 <b_jonas> yeah, those are nice hard numbers
22:45:51 <b_jonas> eh, cold winters aren't that har
22:45:54 <b_jonas> aren't that rare
22:46:20 <b_jonas> fungot, your previous answer wasn't satisfying, so let's try again. compared to typical lions, how dangerous is a pack of carillions?
22:46:20 <fungot> b_jonas: we could add a test ( or a hash table using its location in memory is found to be effective. for bipolar disorder they've used even bigger doses.
22:47:03 <fizzie> There's a pub hereabouts called The Cat's Back, just noticed recently while walking past it their upstairs function room is called The Lion's Den.
22:47:22 <fizzie> The thing about The Cat's Back, though, is that despite the name, they don't have a pub cat.
22:47:36 <fizzie> In fact I think they advertise themselves as dog-friendly.
22:47:44 <b_jonas> the cat has them instead?
22:47:46 <b_jonas> oh...
22:47:52 <fizzie> (Though I guess that's fair enough, some cats are friendly to dogs.)
22:48:55 <b_jonas> oh heck this is the annoying part, I have to click on the send 8 hunters button and then the buy all parchments button about every minute, because with all 17 kittens hunting, the 825 cat power fills up in like 70 seconds
22:49:15 <b_jonas> I mean I could parallelize it so half of the cats research science, so it's self-inflicted annoyance
22:51:41 <fizzie> The building that kind-of obsoletes hunting (though I think you still get a better (furs+ivory)/catpower efficiency from hunting, at least to start with) is three science updates away from Theology, if you go straight there (of course you can't tell in advance the direction).
22:52:04 <b_jonas> wait, I can stop, I have enough parchment
22:52:15 <b_jonas> I've had enough parchment for a while in fact
22:52:18 <b_jonas> I just wasn't paying attention
22:52:33 <b_jonas> I made 55 extra
22:52:52 <b_jonas> now I just have to wait for the culture, which is kind of slow
22:53:09 <b_jonas> oh right, I should buy extra temples then
22:53:22 <b_jonas> or... hmm
22:53:33 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if a second one would help
22:56:26 <b_jonas> meh, it's worth for the long term anyway, I'll get a second temple
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23:08:46 <b_jonas> ok, so I got a second temple, but of course since I spent half my manuscripts, I need to wait just as much for the culture until I get theology
23:11:38 <b_jonas> ok, so I'm waiting for culture, and in the meantime I'll try the trade randomness
23:11:48 <b_jonas> "Griffins hate you for no reason" typical
23:12:01 <b_jonas> at least they didn't *kill* any of my envoy
23:13:23 <fizzie> If you trade with a friendly race, sometimes they're all "X think your kittens are adorable".
23:13:45 <fizzie> Which I can identify with.
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23:22:46 <b_jonas> they gave me spice again
23:24:28 <b_jonas> I'll try a Tempus Fugit
23:25:11 <b_jonas> er I don't understand
23:25:17 <b_jonas> where do I see the status of the Temus Fugit?
23:25:43 <b_jonas> ah
23:25:55 <b_jonas> I have to click on the on/off button, not the Temus Fugit button
23:28:38 <fizzie> Yeah. It collects temporal flux when you've paused the game, and then you can spend it to effectively speed up time (although I think it's maybe just a production bonus?) to get some of that back.
23:28:54 <b_jonas> yeah, just the UI is confusing
23:29:35 <b_jonas> BLUEPRINT!
23:30:12 <fizzie> There's a different offline progression thing that's toggleable from the options menu, which I've only read about, not turned on, since I've pretty much just kept the game running since I learned of it.
23:30:23 <b_jonas> I got a blueprint, so I'll be able to build the steamworks. I'm definitely going for Theology irst though
23:31:53 <fizzie> But AIUI when the offline progression is turned on, when you get back to the game from it being paused or closed, you'll get the regular resource production you've "missed" (up to a cap).
23:32:16 <fizzie> Though I don't know if it applies to craftable stuff; if not, it's kind of pointless, since everything would probably just hit the resource caps.
23:36:33 <b_jonas> also hey look, Ziggurat is now revealed
23:36:46 <b_jonas> and it also costs a blueprint
23:38:02 <b_jonas> and now the Griffins give me a second blueprint
23:38:17 <b_jonas> they also cheated me out of the iron that we agreed on several times, but I don't care, I don't need iron right now
23:38:45 <b_jonas> I didn't even bother to send envoys in the months when they give the most iron
23:41:05 <b_jonas> "Your kittens return empty-pawed"
23:41:19 <b_jonas> at one point they also gave me spice only with no iron
23:41:32 <b_jonas> also I'll get Theology in two minutes
23:46:16 <b_jonas> I got Theology. my temple now produces faith.
23:46:45 <b_jonas> also there's a religion tab with a "Praise the sun!" button
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