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01:54:25 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte/VandalismTestPage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107107 * SpaceByte * (+2157) Created page with "This is a page for testing my vandalism bot. (this is spammed to meet character requirements to test the bot)(this is spammed to meet character requirements to test the bot)(this is spammed to meet character requirements to test the bot)(this
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01:55:22 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte/VandalismTestPage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107109&oldid=107108 * SpaceByte * (+2157)
01:56:53 <zzo38> Is the art and effects of the newer Magic: the Gathering cards too aggressive? It seems to me. (Homelands seems about right, though)
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02:17:39 <fizzie> Hmm, an unsolicited bot?
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02:45:48 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107147&oldid=107145 * SpaceByte * (+773) Undo revision 107145 by [[Special:Contributions/SpaceByte|SpaceByte]] ([[User talk:SpaceByte|talk]])
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02:53:16 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107157&oldid=107154 * SpaceByte * (+773) Undo revision 107154 by [[Special:Contributions/SpaceByte|SpaceByte]] ([[User talk:SpaceByte|talk]])
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08:13:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * XKCD Wrong Times Table * New user account
08:33:04 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107191 * Tesolang * (+527) i know this is a stub
08:33:45 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107192&oldid=107191 * Tesolang * (-2) jellang link was in square brackets so i fixed it
08:34:53 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107193&oldid=107192 * Tesolang * (+4) the commands were bunched up so fixed
08:37:07 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107194&oldid=107193 * Tesolang * (+42) why do i have to edit this page so much
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09:27:39 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107195&oldid=107002 * Tesolang * (+13) added jellang
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10:05:15 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in the wiki configuration, please update the oeis: interwiki prefix to point to the new website https://oeis.org/ . the old URL has sadly bitrotten and we had to replace it everywhere.
10:10:05 <FireFly> wait, where did it live before..
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11:00:10 <wib_jonas> something's wrong with the net connection, presumably on this side, keeps kicking me out of IRC… wait, maybe that's a feature, trying to make me do more useful work?
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11:28:14 <fizzie> FireFly: https://esolangs.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo&siprop=interwikimap has it at http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?Anum=$1 which is probably quite ancient.
11:29:15 <FireFly> probably; it seems oeis.org was rgeistered 2003, and at least as far as I've been aware of oeis it's been at that location I think
11:30:07 <fizzie> Apparently it's configured through the database, not through LocalSettings. And there's a default list -- https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/core/+/HEAD/maintenance/interwiki.list -- which has OEIS in the correct URL, but it might be that list is just the defaults for a new installation, not overriding existing values.
11:30:08 <FireFly> > In 2006, the user interface was overhauled and more advanced search capabilities were added. In 2010 an OEIS wiki at OEIS.org was created to simplify the collaboration of the OEIS editors and contributors.[8]
11:30:09 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: error: parse error on input ‘,’
11:30:24 <FireFly> at least as old as 2010 and probably at least 2006, I guess
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11:31:20 <fizzie> Our wiki seems to have started in 6 April 2005 if Main Page edit history is anything to go by.
11:37:11 <fizzie> But, in the MediaWiki defaults, the OEIS URL was updated only as late as 2014: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/core/+/348a329d5be3a2827cbc3f270a418b02e04e02f4
11:37:21 <fizzie> So that's where we'd've gotten the old one from.
11:38:01 <fizzie> I'll try to figure it out in the evening, there's some maintenance scripts around it but nothing that clearly states it'd update the table based on the defaults.
11:38:28 <wib_jonas> yes, but it seems the old URLs were still valid in 2010
11:42:19 <wib_jonas> from what I understand, some American universities decided that they don't want users to host controversial stuff on their servers or even on any webpage under their domain name, just in case some news site starts to claim "New Southshire University claims <controversial thing>" when it's really just the private webpage of a student under a URL
11:42:19 <wib_jonas> like http://studentlab.u-newsouthshire.edu/~drunkjoe/party.html , so to simplify matters they just broke all those links, because it's easier than to decide which ones might contain controversial content in the future
11:42:55 <wib_jonas> and this is why both the old OEIS links and the old links to Erich Friedman's pages and more are now dead and we have to replace them
11:43:15 <wib_jonas> it sucks but when they're quality resources like these two we do spend some effort on it
11:44:10 <wib_jonas> for the record https://erich-friedman.github.io/ is definitely Erich's Friedman's, not just someone else with a copy of his old homepage that used to be on http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/
11:51:18 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -r 12473: -T "u\n" -l 1 /hackenv/wisdom/password | grep -q || slashlearn 'password//The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.'
11:51:23 <HackEso> Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERNS [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information. \ Relearned 'password': The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.
11:51:46 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -r 12473: -T "u\n" -l 1 /hackenv/wisdom/password | grep -q . || slashlearn 'password//The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.'
11:51:55 <wib_jonas> this is why we should have a command for this
11:52:17 <wib_jonas> I even have what I think is a correct one in the logs, just haven't created a script in bin
11:52:22 <HackEso> The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.
11:54:57 <wib_jonas> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2022-09.html#lSI is the command
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12:43:45 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107196&oldid=107194 * Tesolang * (+0) edited a bit
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13:57:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MixoMAx * New user account
13:59:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107197&oldid=107079 * MixoMAx * (+224)
14:05:29 <esolangs> [[AsPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107198 * MixoMAx * (+2196) initla commit of the Ascii Programming Language
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17:03:57 <esolangs> [[XY problem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107199 * Hakerh400 * (+1466) XY problem
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21:00:13 <ais523> suppose I have two regular expressions (in the mathematical sense – concatenation + Kleene star + alternation + empty string + letters from the alphabet), which are defined using a language that has macros
21:00:55 <ais523> i.e. I can do something like «$a = "(ab*|cd)", $b = "${a}${a}${a}"»
21:01:16 <ais523> the macros obviously don't increase the computational power, but they can potentially make the source a lot shorter
21:02:01 <ais523> I'm looking for an efficient way to find a string that matches both expressions simultaneously
21:02:38 <ais523> this problem is clearly decidable by converting both to NFAs or DFAs, but that could incur an exponential blowup…
21:07:06 <b_jonas> ais523: it probably doesn't matter, but are those macros recursive, eg. can you write '$x = |a$x' instead of '$x = a*' ?
21:08:03 <b_jonas> make that the recursive macro only occuring on the right so they remain regular instead of CF
21:08:57 <ais523> b_jonas: in the original, yes but I got rid of the recursion already by replacing it with Kleene star
21:09:38 <ais523> so only nonrecursive uses are left
21:10:21 <b_jonas> wait a monent, I don't think you can even hope to get rid of an exponential buildup because something like $b = aa; $c = $b$b; $d = $c$c; ... $z = $y$y describes a language with just one string that's exponentially long
21:10:54 <ais523> b_jonas: this is the hard part, I think – presumably we can use macros to describe the output string too
21:11:09 <ais523> so the issue is to handle the exponentially long strings without an exponentially long increase in runtime
21:13:25 <ais523> your example can be handled just by run-length encoding but I suspect that might not be enough for the general case
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21:21:18 <ais523> I think, maybe it might be possible to calculate differences between two macros?
21:22:05 <ais523> like, "here's the set of strings $x for which there's a string that's both a $b$x and a $c, and the set of strings $y for which there's a string that's both a $b and a $c$y"
21:26:11 <esolangs> [[AsPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107204&oldid=107198 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+148) External resources, categories
21:31:53 <b_jonas> so in the input you can use the macros to abbreviate repeating by a fixed count to as short as the binary representation of that count. that means to take the intersection you kind of have to be able to solve a chinese reminder problem with two moduluses
21:32:33 <b_jonas> not hard, we know how to use the extended euclidean algorithm for that, but it kind of constrains what kind of solution you can expect
21:33:33 <ais523> yes – I actually noticed the Chinese remainder problem problem before I noticed the exponential blowup, and that's about as far as I got before turning to #esoteric for help
21:35:33 <ais523> the naive solution ends up iterating over all possible tuples of remainders, which feels like it should be optimisable
21:35:52 <ais523> but maybe it can't be – this problem can't be TC but it might be something-else-complete
21:36:13 <ais523> …I guess NP-completeness is the most likely form of completeness?
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21:36:38 <ais523> ooh, I think you can implement subset sum in this, can't you?
21:37:17 <ais523> by using the macros to RLE numbers, so that the input represents the lengths of the strings in binary (or some similar base), not unary
21:38:27 <ais523> this is a disappointing result in a way, but now that I know there are cases that can't be done efficiently, it saves me from worrying about the general solution and I can just look for special cases that are common and easy to solve
21:39:04 <b_jonas> do we know it's even NP by the way?
21:40:43 <ais523> hmm, good point – I kind-of assumed that by going nondeterministic you could just guess the correct branches for the regex every time
21:40:52 <ais523> but that doesn't necessarily make it run in polynomial time
21:42:28 <ais523> it's clearly doable in exponential time and linear space
21:44:25 <b_jonas> if you say polynomial space then I can buy that
21:44:48 <b_jonas> I'm not convinced of linear space
21:45:31 <ais523> oh, I meant nondeterministic linear space
21:46:15 <ais523> when you can do it simply by keeping a pointer into every macro recording whether and where that macro is being evaluated for the first regex, and again for the second
21:46:27 <ais523> …although you can do it in deterministic linear space too
21:47:01 <ais523> use a counter of the possible nondeterministic executions
21:47:06 <ais523> to decide which way to go
21:47:37 <ais523> there are exponentially many possible executions, so the counter will take O(log(exp(input))) bytes to represent = linear in the size of the input
21:48:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Periotun * New user account
21:49:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107205&oldid=107197 * Periotun * (+123)
21:51:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:XKCD Wrong Times Table]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107206 * Periotun * (+256) Created page with "It seems that you're trying to introduce yourself. You're supposed to do it on [[Esolang:Introduce_yourself|this page]]. The page also contains other people's introductions. ~~~~"
21:53:51 <b_jonas> ok, nondeterministic linear space sounds possible
21:54:09 <b_jonas> I don't think deterministic linear space is
22:03:22 <ais523> ah, I think you may be right there
22:04:24 <ais523> my reasoning was wrong because for the counter to work, it has to remember which choices were made in each use of each macro, which might be exponential itself
22:05:04 <b_jonas> also if you wanted to intersect not two but any number of macroed things (with just alternation, no kleenee star) then you could directly encode SAT of conjunctive normal form boolean formulas into it
22:06:29 <ais523> it's actually interesting that the Kleene star doesn't seem to be fundamental to this problem being diffiult
22:06:54 <ais523> the context is that I've been looking into context-free grammars, and trying to work out which of them can be efficiently parsed
22:07:13 <b_jonas> ais523: we don't know that! all you showed without the Kleenee star is that it's at least NP-hard. but it may require double-exponential time instead of just simple exponential or something and you may need the star for that
22:07:18 <ais523> and which of them can be efficiently determined to be unambiguous
22:07:46 <ais523> b_jonas: right, but NP-hard counts as "difficult" even if there are more difficult variants of the problem available
22:08:26 <b_jonas> and if you try to do it deterministically then the lack of star helps because you can iterate on all the (finite number of) execution traces of a regex in the more straightforward backtrack way
22:10:33 <b_jonas> I also don't know how hard this is without the macros, or without macros or stars, and then you can try to allow macros and/or stars in just one of the two intersected thingies
22:10:46 <b_jonas> and I'm too tired to really think about these now
22:15:00 <b_jonas> finding a string that matches one grammar but not the other is already NP-hard if you allow macros but no stars, because you can encode a disjunctive normal form boolean formula in the second language, but this doesn't easily translate to your original intersection problem
22:16:27 <ais523> regexes can be negated, but it often causes an explosion in size – I wonder if the macros would prevent that?
22:16:48 <ais523> because you can have a negated version of each macro and define the negated versions recursively
22:17:19 <b_jonas> you can also encode the dnf thing to the difference of two grammars with stars but without macros by the way
22:30:47 <ais523> after thinking about the "look for ambiguities in a context-free grammar" problem for a while I'm starting to consider it to be an esolang, it's a) well-known to be TC and b) supports a surprising range of programming techniques
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23:13:06 <fizzie> I've updated the OEIS interwiki prefix. (By just resetting the list to the current default, after eyeballing the diff.)
23:13:35 <fizzie> (I don't know of a page with an [[oeis:...]] link though.)
23:15:14 <ais523> we use interwikis to Wikipedia occasionally, but that's about it I think
23:15:34 <ais523> (I've assumed that the "wikipedia:" prefix has to be visible on those, just like links to userspace)
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