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07:11:22 <Taneb> b_jonas: I'm afraid Gnorwegian is a Tanebvention. It's the language spoken in Phinland
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08:36:33 <esolangs> [[Kwert]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107538&oldid=107527 * Arctenik * (+6228) Expand on various aspects, including new command ID syntax
08:46:13 <esolangs> [[Kwert]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107539&oldid=107538 * Arctenik * (+1) /* Evaluation */ Add break before note about skipping the first command
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09:27:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Methewhenmethe * New user account
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09:29:56 <esolangs> [[User:Andriy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107540&oldid=103047 * Andriy * (+41)
09:36:35 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107541 * Andriy * (+541) started work on the page
09:38:21 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107542&oldid=107541 * Andriy * (+322)
09:40:40 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107543&oldid=107542 * Andriy * (+90)
09:54:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andriy * uploaded "[[File:GraphAddress.png]]": An explanation of addresses in Graph Oriented Fictional COmputer
09:55:18 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107545&oldid=107543 * Andriy * (+27)
09:56:26 <esolangs> [[Borsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107546&oldid=91955 * Andriy * (-8)
09:57:47 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107547&oldid=107545 * Andriy * (+116)
10:00:34 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107548&oldid=107547 * Andriy * (+312)
10:01:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107549&oldid=107536 * Andriy * (+40) /* G */
10:02:52 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107550&oldid=107548 * Andriy * (+77)
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10:15:21 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107556&oldid=107555 * Andriy * (+37)
10:19:32 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107557&oldid=107556 * Andriy * (+228)
10:22:56 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107558&oldid=107520 * Andriy * (+115) /* golfuck */ adding Graph Oriented Fictional Programming Language
10:25:38 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107559&oldid=107558 * Andriy * (+169) /* Graph Oriented Fictional Computer */
10:29:44 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107560&oldid=107557 * Andriy * (+54)
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12:24:27 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107561&oldid=107560 * Andriy * (-25) It doesn't use xml
12:25:03 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107562&oldid=107561 * Andriy * (+11)
12:25:11 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107563&oldid=107562 * Andriy * (+0)
12:25:22 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107564&oldid=107563 * Andriy * (+1)
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13:47:54 <river> https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.10798.pdf
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17:31:46 <wib_jonas> river: nice catch, thank you for linking it. if you want to post an answer to https://mathoverflow.net/q/182440/5340 , ping me and I'll delete my answer
17:44:41 <int-e> Hmm, a periodic tiling or aperiodic tiling...
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19:54:38 <zzo38> The maximum UTF-32 code point is 0x10FFFF, and the minimum TRON-32 code point (other than ASCII control characters) is 0x212121, so they don't overlap.
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20:19:01 <b_jonas> Factorio and Spelunky 2 have seeded map generation but they support only 32 bits of entropy for the seed. I find this so weird. These are modern games running on modern hardware, so why limit the seed so much?
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20:39:12 <int-e> How much of a limitation is that? I guess it makes Minecraft-style reverse engineering of the seed less complicated.
20:41:20 <int-e> (cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF4k2_-C40 ...hmm I wonder whether there is an accessible first-hand account of the brute force computation effort.
20:41:53 <int-e> also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaRurhiK-Lk
20:52:21 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, people did brute-force search all the Factorio seeds using some automated criteria to find good ones for the any% speedrun
20:53:17 <b_jonas> or maybe not all just a lot of them? I'm not sure.
20:53:54 <b_jonas> each one takes a few seconds to generate the map around the starting area so you need serious parallelism to brute force all of the, but it's not out of question
20:54:15 <b_jonas> but more importantly you get repeats if you generate lots of random seeds, at least in Factorio
20:54:38 <b_jonas> I don't know how Spelunky works, maybe it uses a larger seed for non-seeded games, in which case you won't get repeats
20:54:44 <b_jonas> Factorio only has seeded games
20:55:35 <b_jonas> (though of course Factorio mods may override the map generator, so one could plausibly use a larger seed, though there's a drawback, the modded map generation is always much slower than the vanilla one)
20:58:59 <int-e> Anyway as to "why" I imagine nobody gave it much thought? And for entertaining humans, 2^32 is a lot of scenarios. Or even 2^20 if there are duplicates.
20:59:50 <b_jonas> int-e: for Spelunky, one possible explanation is that it displays the seed in the interface in-game, probably to watermark videos to show that they're seeded
21:00:27 <int-e> "But with 64 bits brute force could find better seeds." doesn't make a great argument in favor either.
21:00:41 <b_jonas> I don't think there are so many duplicates that there are only 2↑20 though
21:01:09 <b_jonas> if larger seed size could find much better seeds that just means your map generator is not balanced enough
21:01:09 <int-e> b_jonas: I was hoping so, just saying that I think this is still enough.
21:02:37 <int-e> Below 2^20 things may get iffy, mostly because of the birthday paradox amplified by a large player base.
21:04:15 <b_jonas> note that Factorio is effectively even faster than Spelunky, because speedrunners run the default settings category, in which you can't choose explicit seeds, but you can roll a random seed and preview the map, watching the preview counts in the speedrun time, and players just keep rerolling that until they get an acceptible seed, taking just a few seconds between rerolls
21:04:32 <int-e> b_jonas: Hmm, I guess factorio is too long-term of a game to suffer the Minecraft speedrunning effect (where finding the right stuff early on is so important)
21:05:23 <int-e> But I don't know. I've watched Minecraft speedruns, I haven't watched anything from those other two games so I know almost nothing about them.
21:06:13 <b_jonas> int-e: not true, it's short term, the early part is where randomness matters the most, at least in those speedrunning categories
21:07:06 <b_jonas> for later in the game you can lose a lot on execution, but not on randomness, because in shorter categories you see everything already on the preview map, while in longer runs the randomness just doesn't matter as much proportionally
21:07:24 <int-e> So... I guess "balancing" actually means reducing the randomness then?
21:07:38 <b_jonas> it's not all in the preview by the way: one thing that can ruin runs is that rocks drop a random amount of stone and coal when you mine them,
21:08:21 <b_jonas> and in a speedrun you want to mine a few rocks (that spawn close to your starting point, which is random but you can see from the preview) and hope they give good drops, and if not then you just restart in the first few minutes
21:08:49 <b_jonas> but this is more important in the seeded categories; in unseeded just the generated map matters more
21:09:40 <b_jonas> int-e: kind of, or at least taming the randomness so it can't give you crazy overpowered maps in seeded runs, which by the way both Spelunky 2 and Factorio seems to do well
21:10:23 <b_jonas> in Spelunky 2, good shops and secret shops in 1-2 and 1-3 can help a lot, but they can only help so much that people quickly found seeds that have the best shops
21:11:35 <b_jonas> also important, though not really for the seeded stuff, that you balance the game so no seed can screw you over too much, which Spelunky 2 and Factorio also do really well
21:12:00 <b_jonas> in Spelunky 2 when players die they almost always feel that it's their fault, not the game's fault
21:12:07 <b_jonas> it's a really well made game
21:13:45 <b_jonas> and if you want a particular item, even if you could get that item from a lucky shop in the first biome (dwelling), there's also some guaranteed or at least very likely way to get the same item in any random seed. there's no way to likely get *all* items together, but you also don't get them randomly from shop drops in seeded
21:17:38 <b_jonas> eg. there's a guaranteed jetpack in Duat, a guaranteed spike boots in ice caves, a practically guaranteed cape in Sun Challenge (you may not be able to get one but it's likely your own fault, not randomness), a guaranteed altar with sacrificable potential corpses in Madam Tusk's Palace (it doesn't generate if you kill Madame Tusk earlier, but that basically only happens by the player's fault), a
21:17:44 <b_jonas> guaranteed large set of shops called the Black Market in Jungle, etc
21:18:10 <b_jonas> a guaranteed Dice Shop in Tide Pool, and more
21:18:57 <b_jonas> and there are enough levels and altars are frequent enough that you'll almost certainly get a random altar besides the one in Tusk's Palace, though often not on the level where you want to get them
21:20:15 <b_jonas> but the dungeon is also designed so you can't get everything at once: there are two sections where you can branch to one of two biomes. first is Volcana vs Jungle where in Jungle you get the Black Market with lots of normal items in shops plus glue, whereas in Volcana you get one very good item, Vlad's Cape instead; second is Sunken City vs Temple which have their own set of interesting tradeoffs
21:21:07 <b_jonas> and even besides the guaranteed items, the game is designed so that the items only make your work easier, you can usually still progress without items, it's just harder,
21:21:43 <b_jonas> so together with the randomness this makes the game quite variable and less boring at the highest level, where the players are good enough to survive with any incomplete set of items
21:23:34 <b_jonas> anyway, *because* the game randomness is well designed, I think it would be even better if it allowed longer seeds
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21:58:00 <b_jonas> and yes, https://tasvideos.org/3080S nethack is the example for where the random map generation is balanced wrong: you can die on turn zero or get a wand of wishing very close to your starting point
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