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00:42:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kotnen * New user account
00:45:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113363&oldid=113296 * Kotnen * (+197) i (rax) introduced myself
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02:50:56 <Sgeo> I found a page where ESR calls Amiga cooperative, even though it's usually called pre-emptive. Is that ESR just using Linus Torvalds's argument or is he just wrong?
02:51:37 <Sgeo> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taouu/html/ch02s05.html
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04:30:40 <zzo38> I notice in the picture, it says: "Red-Copy, Yel-Copy/Rename, Blue-Delete". Are there colours of mouse buttons?
04:35:38 <zzo38> And, I think the device on the left is used for chorded input (perhaps similar to the Baudot code, although maybe it uses a different code), and not a touch tablet. (Actually I think I read somewhere that is what it is, but I do not remember the details)
04:36:39 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113364&oldid=82888 * Lebster * (-4) /* Hello World */
04:37:13 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113365&oldid=112939 * Lebster * (-4) /* StupidStackLanguage */
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04:58:35 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113366&oldid=113364 * Lebster * (-71) Remove C++ interpreter (it was missing some instructions and a new version will be created soon)
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07:11:58 <esolangs> [[Psychairefatback (Archive)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113367&oldid=68846 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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10:32:47 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113368&oldid=113365 * None1 * (+61) /* Qugord */ QuineFuck
10:35:06 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113369&oldid=113362 * None1 * (+5) It is WIP, but still quite powerfull
10:36:53 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113370&oldid=113369 * None1 * (+28) Tell that collaborators are welcomed
10:38:49 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113371&oldid=113370 * None1 * (+36) /* How it works */
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10:41:46 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113372&oldid=113332 * None1 * (+82)
10:44:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113373&oldid=113292 * None1 * (+16) /* Q */
11:56:30 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113374&oldid=113371 * None1 * (+932) /* Examples */ Added Finite Fibonacci sequence
11:56:46 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113375&oldid=113374 * None1 * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
11:59:08 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113376&oldid=113375 * None1 * (+259) /* How it works */
12:03:14 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113377&oldid=113372 * None1 * (+178) A refactor of my user page because it is too messy
12:03:28 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113378&oldid=113377 * None1 * (+30) /* My GitHub Profile */
12:04:13 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113379&oldid=113378 * None1 * (+27) /* My Esolangs */
12:05:21 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113380&oldid=111263 * None1 * (+0) /* Offline Interpreters */ ambiguity
12:11:23 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113381&oldid=113379 * None1 * (+424) Added a part that introduces what I like and hate
12:13:22 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113382&oldid=113381 * None1 * (+28) /* What I like */
12:13:29 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113383&oldid=113382 * None1 * (+1) /* What I like */
12:14:05 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113384&oldid=113383 * None1 * (+24) /* What I dislike */
12:14:20 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113385&oldid=113384 * None1 * (-19) /* BFFuck (WIP) */
12:21:51 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113386&oldid=113353 * None1 * (+263) /* while (x) { code } */ Added brainfuck do-while loop
12:43:45 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113387&oldid=113376 * None1 * (+3260) /* External Resources */ Added online interpreter
12:45:31 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113388&oldid=113387 * None1 * (-30) /* External Resources */ Fixed
12:45:46 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113389&oldid=113388 * None1 * (+2) /* External Resources */
12:46:04 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113390&oldid=113389 * None1 * (+16) /* External Resources */
12:46:36 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113391&oldid=113390 * None1 * (+8) /* External Resources */
13:19:11 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113392&oldid=113391 * None1 * (+60) /* Syntax */ Horray, BFFuck now has one-branch if statements!
13:21:21 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113393&oldid=113392 * None1 * (+839) /* Examples */ Added a [[Truth Machine]] example
13:21:47 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113394&oldid=113393 * None1 * (+16) /* Truth Machine] */
13:24:09 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113395&oldid=113394 * None1 * (+67) /* External Resources */
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13:27:19 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113396&oldid=113395 * None1 * (+189) /* External Resources */ Fixed online compiler link since the compiler has changed
13:27:41 <wib_jonas> Sgeo: I'm not sure because I only know Amiga from rumors, never used one, but I think it has normal programs that aren't even cooperative multitasking with each other because only the one in the active window is ever running (I don't know how they multitask towards the kernel, but I presume that is preemptive using hardware interrupts); but also
13:27:42 <wib_jonas> applets which I think are preemptive towards each other and the one running normal program, but I think in exchange they can use a more restricted OS interface.
13:28:04 <wib_jonas> you'll have to find someone who actually knows the Amiga to know for sure. plus perhaps this might differ between versions of the OS too.
13:31:02 <wib_jonas> from the article that you listed "Cooperative multitasking was an economy measure. It meant the hardware platform could omit an expensive MMU (memory-management unit) from its parts list." that is ridiculous, memory protection vs pre-emptive time sharing are orthogonal, and you need hardware interrupts for pre-emption, not a memory management
13:31:02 <wib_jonas> units, and almost all computer hardware support hardware interrupts for ages.
13:31:28 <wib_jonas> I wouldn't trust that article if it writes something like that
13:33:28 <wib_jonas> "On the other hand, it meant that the latency of interfaces was minimal and constant, never disturbed by random interrupts or scheduler-introduced jitter. This made for a smooth, predictable user experience even on relatively underpowered hardware." if there were no interrupts then the mouse cursor would be updated on the display only when the
13:33:28 <wib_jonas> application is idle, which would be the opposite of "a smooth, predictable user experience". try, if you wish, Age of Mythology on a slow computer, make it lag, and you'll see what it's like when you can only see your mouse cursor move once every redraw and the lag causes redraws only 10 or 20 times a second. it makes it really hard to use the
13:33:37 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113397&oldid=113396 * None1 * (+0) /* External Resources */ Typo, fixed
13:34:13 <esolangs> [[Random]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113398&oldid=46912 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+190) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Random programming language on GitHub.
13:34:40 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113399&oldid=113397 * None1 * (+1) /* Reson why creating it */ Typo, fixed
13:35:01 <wib_jonas> sounds like a journalist who doesn't know much about retrocomputing (ChatGPT being the prime suspect) wrote the article.
13:35:47 <int-e> you can have interrupts and cooperative multi-tasking
13:36:00 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113400&oldid=113399 * None1 * (+1) /* Reson why creating it */ Typo, fixed
13:37:00 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113401&oldid=113400 * None1 * (+16) /* How it works */
13:37:28 <int-e> So nothing is really stopping you from having a smooth mouse cursor. It helps dramatically if it's a hardware sprite.
13:39:38 <int-e> I guess when you write "no interrupts" and mean "no interrupts that cause noticable latency" then technical accuracy is no longer part of the picture.
13:40:03 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, but it specifically says that the user interface was "never disturbed by random interrupts"
13:40:52 <wib_jonas> yes, you can have interrupts to the kernel, but cooperative multitasking among programs
13:41:54 <wib_jonas> you can even have cooperative multitasking among some programs but preemptive to others, which is what you get in Windows 3.1 in 386 mode: cooperative among 16-bit Windows programs, preemptive to DOS windows, but in exchange the DOS windows can't use Windows system calls and so can't really interact with windows programs such as use the clipboard
13:42:51 <int-e> I remember that you could hang that with `cli; hlt` in a dosbox... not so preemptive or sandboxed
13:43:00 <int-e> probably more of the latter than the former
13:43:10 <wib_jonas> and then this got more complicated in Windows 95 OSR2 or Windows 98 (I don't recall which) which allows you to use that model for 16-bit windows programs but also allows to sandbox a 16-bit windows program so it runs preemptive
13:43:16 <int-e> (i.e., it's more about lack of isolation)
13:43:34 <wib_jonas> int-e: that's in 268 mode (which you can still start on a 386 with a command-line argument); in 386 advanced mode it won't happen\
13:43:57 <wib_jonas> int-e: you can tell the difference because 386 advanced mode is the only one that can run dos programs in windowed mode instead of full screen
13:43:59 <int-e> Hmm, are you sure?
13:44:35 <int-e> I'm not sure either though... it's been a long time. I /think/ I tried this on an i386 at home and it hung the system.
13:44:38 <wib_jonas> I'm sure there are two modes, out of necessity since boxing the programs needs a 386, but I'm not sure how cli|hlt behaves
13:45:07 <wib_jonas> it's quite possible that cli|hlt does hang a DOS program even in 386 advanced mode
13:45:08 <int-e> But the only instance I actually remember was on a computer I don't know the processor model of.
13:45:47 <wib_jonas> int-e: that's why I'm telling about the windowed mode. on 286 you only get full screen, since the DOS program will often want to access the real video buffer directly
13:46:15 <int-e> The model must be preemptive of course, but as I recall it, it was tied to the timer interrupt (what else) and `cli` wasn't emulated but simply allowed.
13:46:26 <int-e> It was in windowed mode, that I'm certain of.
13:46:52 <esolangs> [[Bffuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=113402 * None1 * (+20) Redirected page to [[BFFuck]]
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13:47:12 <int-e> As I also said, this is really a failure of isolating the host from the client, rather than a lack of preemption.
13:47:29 <wib_jonas> yeah, so it's preemptive, but it's not a full memory protection box, just accidentally protects memory accesses because of virtual-8086 mode
13:48:01 <wib_jonas> the 16-bit programs don't get any memory protection at all, a stray pointer can crash the whole system, also changed in I think Windows 98
13:51:03 <wib_jonas> also there's additional magic so that Windows 3.1 in 386 advanced mode can run not only real-mode DOS programs, but also mostly real-mode DOS programs that use extended memory, and even programs running in a 32-bit DOS extender. this too, of course, requires some co-operation between the himem / dos extender drivers and windows, which may be why
13:51:04 <wib_jonas> Windows ships with an updated HIMEM.SYS that differs from the one that ships with DOS
13:52:12 <wib_jonas> and the fun part when you emulate it on modern machines is that nothing can make use of more than 64 megabytes of memory, because why would anyone make the APIs more complicated to support a hypothetical configuration that no computer has
13:52:56 <wib_jonas> the XMM doesn't surprise me as much as the dos extenders
13:54:21 <wib_jonas> also the program that runs dos extender can change to SVGA video modes, and Windows can correctly switch between those video modes and Windows's own fancy video SVGA modes. it's really well executed.
13:55:43 <wib_jonas> imagine trying to save and restore a video mode back when video cards were all different, needing separate Windows drivers per brand, and they were so primitive that you often couldn't just autodetect them, the user had to tell the configuration, like how much RAM the video card has, to the Windows setup, or else Windows will just use the video
13:55:55 <int-e> Emulating int 10h and int 15h APIs. I'm hazy on whether DOS extenders really worked... I guess whatever API EMM386 implemented could also be emulated.
13:57:08 <int-e> I guess you can also have magic for detecting common implementations? Like dos4gw.exe...
13:57:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: *some* DOS extender programs work. possibly not all. I know because back when I emulated OpenTTD in Bochs, it only worked if I ran it in Windows 3.11, program because of some bug in Bochs or in the rom that it sues
13:57:21 <int-e> I forgot a lot of that stuff.
13:57:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: or windows support in dos4gw itself, I honestly don't know how all that magic works
13:57:44 <int-e> There was a second very common one and I can't remember.
13:58:06 <int-e> (besides dos4gw I mean)
13:58:30 <wib_jonas> just search the channel logs for dos4gw, it's probably come up at some point
14:00:24 <int-e> emx was another... probably not /that/ common but I was exposed to it because of (La)TeX
14:01:52 <int-e> Oh, right... "DPMI" is the keyword... that standardized interface which was also provided by Windows.
14:02:13 <int-e> (I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS_extender#DOS_extenders )
14:03:42 <int-e> So I guess CauseWay was the other common one I couldn't remember.
14:04:26 <int-e> and I've seen cwsdpmi too
14:06:44 <wib_jonas> so can you answer Sgeo's OQ about Amiga?
14:07:11 <int-e> I never had an Amiga.
14:07:20 <int-e> So no incentive to look at internals.
14:07:36 <wib_jonas> you could have emulated it to run games...
14:08:39 <wib_jonas> there must be other retrocomputing experts on the channel
14:15:14 <fizzie> I had an Amiga enthusiast friend, but never got too deeply involved.
14:16:00 <fizzie> But I think ESR was just generally muddling together the coöperative vs. preëmptive multitasking distinction with having or not having memory protection between programs.
14:16:30 <fizzie> From the same sentece you quoted about the MMU.
14:19:44 <fizzie> If you trust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exec_(Amiga) it sounds like it would be fair to say Amiga(OS) had preëmptive multitasking, even if it would have just supported one "main" application (don't know if that was really the case) and if it does allow the application to opt out from being preëmpted for an indefinite period (which seems to be the case).
14:28:57 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113403&oldid=113385 * None1 * (+2) /* My Article */ plural
14:33:19 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113404&oldid=113401 * None1 * (+0) /* How it works */
14:36:06 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113405&oldid=113404 * None1 * (+194) /* How it works */
14:36:39 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113406&oldid=113405 * None1 * (-1) /* How it works */
14:50:44 <wib_jonas> fungot, is a "weatherspoon" the propeller thing under a weathercock that spins to show how fast the wind is?
15:23:28 <fizzie> Oof. It refuses to obey me, because I've picked up a ~ in my username.
15:23:52 <fizzie> (The "who's your admin" check is just an exact string equality test, not a pattern match.)
15:24:51 <fizzie> My VPS was having some network trouble, probably the indent check just failed temporarily.
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16:56:35 <wib_jonas> ooh nice! I sent a non-software bug report to someone and they replied, on the same day, not only that they have fixed the mistakes, but also that they just realized they hadn't acted on my previous bug report but now they fixed that too
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17:44:26 <Sgeo> A library I wrote was audited negatively because of unresolved issues. I should probably do something about that.
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19:24:54 <b_jonas> Sgeo: close them all with not a bug status!
19:25:37 <int-e> close as "inactive" because there hasn't been any activity on them for 3 days
19:26:30 <int-e> Hmm my latest instance was "closed because the package is being deprecated". It was a 2 year old ticket that I rememebred nothing about :)
19:27:07 <int-e> Which... is good, really. It means that I wasn't personally affected.
19:28:25 <b_jonas> so closed as wontfix status?
19:29:04 <b_jonas> is it deprecated because nobody wants to maintain it, or because it's obsolete or badly designed and it's not worth to use even if someone maintained it?
19:29:06 <Sgeo> Taking a look, it's a potential resource leak in an API no one uses because my crate is only know for a different function
19:30:06 <Sgeo> ...the person didn't file an issue, just a pull request
19:32:14 <b_jonas> so you know that the C++ standard standardized an interface for the Mersenne Twister mt19937 random generator, which was previously available with a simlar interface from boost and a different interface from GSL, right? only, TIL that the standardized interface isn't complete, it doesn't support the method to initialize the generator from a variable length array, so either you initialize it with a
19:32:20 <b_jonas> 32-bit seed (clearly inadequate), or in a nonstandard way different from what was specified for the original mt19937.
19:32:45 <b_jonas> it's possible that I'm misunderstanding this, but this seems rather silly. the workaround is obvious, just use the boost version and pass it an array of eight integers.
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19:33:10 <b_jonas> boost does have the initializing constructor, though I haven't verified that it does the same as the original mt19937.
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20:45:11 <zzo38> Which library did you write and what is the unresolved issue?
20:45:51 <zzo38> For my own projects, hardly anyone had ever added any issue reports at all
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21:14:02 <fizzie> "Infeasible", "Obsolete", "Not reproducible" and "Intended behaviour" are our four not-a-bug statuses.
21:14:52 <b_jonas> isn't "infeasable" a wontfix status?
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21:18:52 <fizzie> Yes, maybe "not-a-bug" wasn't a good word.
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21:19:48 <zzo38> There are also feature requests. You might also specify "Illogical", "Out of scope for this project", "Deferred", etc
21:20:10 <fizzie> In fact, the full names of all four in our tracker might even be "Won't fix (Infeasible)", "Won't fix (Obsolete)", "Won't fix (Not reproducible)" and "Won't fix (Intended behavior)".
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21:29:00 <zzo38> Is there bug report tracker with NNTP?
21:31:13 <fizzie> I think there's a Jira - NNTP bridge of some sort.
21:34:58 <fizzie> Although it may no longer exist.
21:40:10 <b_jonas> many bug trackers can send email, and I assume you can send that to an email to news bridge
21:40:46 <b_jonas> usually a double conversion like that is a bad idea, but in this case it probably doesn't hurt much
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22:10:33 <b_jonas> wontfix reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1172/
22:12:04 <b_jonas> I think I appreciate that strip better now that I'm on the other side of it, having to deal with changes that my co-workers make
22:13:40 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:19:38 <zzo38> Maybe the one should be made up which is designed to use with NNTP
22:40:25 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113407&oldid=92578 * Rphii * (-1) /* Abbreviations */ typo
22:52:57 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113408&oldid=112933 * None1 * (+33) /* Cat */ Added a cat program that never terminates
22:53:29 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113409&oldid=113408 * None1 * (+1) /* Cat */
22:59:44 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113410&oldid=108865 * Rphii * (+8) fix some typos
23:06:27 <esolangs> [[Division]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=113411 * None1 * (+646) Created page with "Division is a stupid language created by [[User:None1]]. ==Syntax== Any valid program in Division looks like this: a/b a and b are non-negative decimal numbers. Any invalid program raises a syntax error: Syntax error For a valid program, if b is 0, it raises an error
23:13:30 <esolangs> [[Division]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113412&oldid=113411 * None1 * (+431) Implemented
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23:17:37 <esolangs> [[Division]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113413&oldid=113412 * None1 * (+6) /* Interpreter */
23:20:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113414&oldid=113344 * None1 * (+73) /* General languages */
23:25:07 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113415&oldid=113403 * None1 * (+73) /* My Esolangs */
23:27:17 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113416&oldid=113414 * None1 * (-1) /* General languages */
23:29:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaEEEEEEEaaaaaaaaaaaa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113417&oldid=113305 * Linker-Error * (+235)
23:30:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaEEEEEEEaaaaaaaaaaaa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113418&oldid=113417 * Linker-Error * (+2)
23:30:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaEEEEEEEaaaaaaaaaaaa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113419&oldid=113418 * Linker-Error * (-1)
23:30:54 <esolangs> [[User:Linker-Error]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113420&oldid=113321 * Linker-Error * (+10)
23:32:20 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113421&oldid=113109 * None1 * (+410) /* See also */ Added Text compiler to [[StupidStackLanguage]]
23:32:35 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113422&oldid=113421 * None1 * (-1) /* See also */
23:34:50 <esolangs> [[SSL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=113423 * None1 * (+33) Redirected page to [[StupidStackLanguage]]
23:37:15 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=113424&oldid=113422 * None1 * (+30) /* Development of a compiler */ Added Befunge compiler