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00:58:38 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122469&oldid=122460 * Imakesi * (+19) /* SemiScript */
00:58:57 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122470&oldid=122469 * Imakesi * (-35) /* The colons and the semicolons */
01:00:26 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122471&oldid=122470 * Imakesi * (+36)
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01:15:44 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122472&oldid=122471 * Imakesi * (+1194)
01:16:18 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122473&oldid=122472 * Imakesi * (+10)
01:16:53 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122474&oldid=122473 * Imakesi * (+0)
01:18:07 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122475&oldid=122474 * Imakesi * (+6) /* Hello, world! */
01:19:36 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122476&oldid=122475 * Imakesi * (+3)
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01:45:57 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122477&oldid=122476 * Imakesi * (+151)
02:16:25 <esolangs> [[CBIASIPOSLESWRAOTTHNRTBTSS.SATLCD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122478&oldid=120670 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Rectified the example program whose relocation to the seventh line would not repeat the modification and output steps, and amended two perform to the actual preform tokens.
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03:22:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122479 * AnotherUser05 * (+6) Created page with "circle"
03:22:44 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122480&oldid=122477 * Imakesi * (+53)
03:23:00 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122481&oldid=122480 * Imakesi * (+1)
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03:40:39 <esolangs> [[Ice box]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122482 * AnotherUser05 * (+796) Created page with "Ice box is a 2D esolang (like [[Befunge]]) created by [[User:AnotherUser05]], where instead of a cursor, there are ice boxes going around the code. {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Header text !! Header text |- | Example || Example |- | Example || Example
04:11:03 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122483&oldid=122481 * Imakesi * (+2)
04:15:25 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122484&oldid=122483 * Imakesi * (+2)
04:15:57 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122485&oldid=122484 * Imakesi * (-2)
04:17:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:SemiScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122486 * Imakesi * (+152) Created page with "discuss sometihng -Sincerely, ~~~~ the creator of the language and article"
04:18:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122487&oldid=122486 * Imakesi * (-20)
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07:00:35 <esolangs> [[brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122488 * Imakesi * (+10) Created page with "this sucks"
07:00:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:You can uck without a brainf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122489 * Imakesi * (+35) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
07:09:24 <esolangs> [[brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122490&oldid=122488 * Imakesi * (+319)
07:13:05 <esolangs> [[brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122491&oldid=122490 * Imakesi * (+351) /* Interpreters */
07:15:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122492&oldid=122053 * Imakesi * (+34)
07:16:36 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122493&oldid=122492 * Imakesi * (-6)
07:20:51 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122494&oldid=122493 * Imakesi * (+2) /* General languages */
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10:26:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Esolang:You can uck without a brainf]] to [[You can uck without a brainf]]: Please DON'T write you esolangs in the Esolang: namespace
10:28:48 <esolangs> [[You can uck without a brainf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122497&oldid=122495 * None1 * (+2) Changed redirect target from [[Brainfuck]] to [[brainfuck]]
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11:21:04 <esolangs> [[Spam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122498 * None1 * (+2774) Created page with "'''Spam''' is an esolang invented.by [[User:None1]]. Its programs are to imitate a kind of spam in text massage that wastes time for people who see it by letting you eyes move between lines and ends up saying that you are fooled. ==Syntax== Every program consists of lines li
11:21:13 <esolangs> [[Spam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122499&oldid=122498 * None1 * (+0)
11:22:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122500&oldid=122461 * None1 * (+11) /* S */
11:23:21 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122501&oldid=121747 * None1 * (+154) /* SpaghettiScript */
11:24:32 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122502&oldid=122390 * None1 * (+229) /* Sokolang */
11:25:18 <esolangs> [[Spam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122503&oldid=122499 * None1 * (+2)
11:25:57 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122504&oldid=122248 * None1 * (+200) /* SOS */
11:27:35 <esolangs> [[Spam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122505&oldid=122503 * None1 * (+1)
11:30:02 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122506&oldid=122387 * None1 * (+112) /* My Esolangs */
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14:33:05 <esolangs> [[Ice box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122507&oldid=122482 * AnotherUser05 * (+1879)
15:17:14 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122508&oldid=122494 * Imakesi * (+18)
15:19:51 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122509&oldid=122485 * Imakesi * (-3)
15:48:05 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122510&oldid=122509 * Imakesi * (-1611)
15:49:37 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122511&oldid=122510 * Imakesi * (-2) /* Functions */
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15:54:47 <esolangs> [[User:Imakesi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122512&oldid=122446 * Ais523 * (-19) fix namespace the Esolang: namespace is for meta-discussion, esolangs go in the main namespace
15:55:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:SemiScript]]": redirect left behind after page was moved to the correct namespace
15:55:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:You can uck without a brainf]]": redirect left behind after page was moved to the correct namespace
16:05:38 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais has been following Magic for long enough that he must remember the 2010 rules changes ← indeed, and I still sort-of dislike them
16:05:52 <ais523> there's a tradeoff between making the rules simple, and making the rules produce expected results
16:06:21 <ais523> the rules post-2010 produce the results that most players would expect from abilities used during combat, but use an incredible amount of complexity to accomplish that
16:07:00 <ais523> my current belief is that allowing double-blocking may have been a mistake – it creates a lot of rules complexity for not much gameplay gain
16:07:36 <ais523> if you remove double blocking then most of the complexity added in the 2010 rules change goes away
16:08:21 <ais523> (for a timeline perspective: at the point in time I was actively playing Magic, it was under the ruleset where combat damage went on the stack)
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16:17:01 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122513&oldid=122511 * Imakesi * (+995) /* Cheat sheet */
16:17:55 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122514&oldid=122513 * Imakesi * (-25) /* Symbols */
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16:57:52 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122515&oldid=122514 * Imakesi * (+330)
17:03:51 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122516&oldid=122515 * Imakesi * (+23)
17:08:15 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122517&oldid=122516 * Imakesi * (-9)
17:10:57 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know if double-blocking is a mistake, it's been present for long enough that I think it's one of those rules that give M:tG its unique character. the pre-2010 combat rules were certainly nice and easier to think about, the problem was mostly how they were phrased. they should have rephrased them such that instead of combat damage being an object on the stack, combat damage was one of
17:11:03 <b_jonas> those actions that happen at the start of a step, so they break the old combat damage step to two steps, one before the damage is resolved and one after. note that back then mana disappeared only between phases, not between steps, so breaking one step into two steps wouldn't be much of a rule change. (obviously the whole thing is doubled for first strike.)
17:14:35 <b_jonas> I'm not completely against the node damage order rules, but yes, the pre-2010 rules were seem simpler, but this might just be what I'm used to.
17:18:26 <b_jonas> plus it just seems like a change that came up too often in practical games. I wasn't playing with Mogg Fanatic, but I was playing against Mogg Fanatic a lot.
17:19:07 <b_jonas> and M:tG already had the tool to print a creature that they didn't want to work there: activated abilities that had "{T}, sacrifice this permanent" in their cost
17:19:33 <b_jonas> (yes, I know there's vigilance and Twiddle)
17:20:33 <b_jonas> yes, I know it's not the same, it means you can't sac the creature after it attacks (even for giving up the damage that it would deal)
17:21:03 <b_jonas> but it's a flavorful way to implement creatures like Benevolent Bodyguard that can choose to either fight or protect at the start of combat
17:22:09 <b_jonas> sure, Mogg Fanatic was in tenth edition, so it wouldn't just go away quickly in favor of newer cards
17:22:43 <b_jonas> but M:tG does generally try to just print new cards with new abilities instead of errataing the meaning of old ones.
17:29:23 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122518&oldid=122517 * Imakesi * (+470) /* Hello world */
17:30:00 <b_jonas> of course the rules change isn't only about cards like Mogg Fanatic. another practical situation is if I attack with two 1/1 elf tokens, the opponent blocks with a 2/2 soldier, then I cast a Giant Growth, then by the old rules I'd lose one of my elves, whereas in the modern rules I get to keep both elves
17:38:17 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122519&oldid=122518 * Imakesi * (-4)
17:40:54 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122520&oldid=122519 * Imakesi * (+95)
17:42:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122521 * Imakesi * (+35) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
17:42:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122522&oldid=122521 * Imakesi * (-35) Blanked the page
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18:18:07 <zzo38> I think that combat damage on the stack was not as good as it is now; the alternative would be to have a "damage prevention step" like the older rules have, which might have been acceptable if they had a good way to do it (although the newer rules work differently in many ways that it doesn't fit as well)
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18:57:09 <esolangs> [[Asciidots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122523 * EvyLah * (+24) Created page with "# REDIRECT [[AsciiDots]]"
18:57:28 <esolangs> [[Asciidots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122524&oldid=122523 * EvyLah * (-1) Redirected page to [[AsciiDots]]
19:04:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Imakesi * uploaded "[[File:BannerSemiScript.png]]"
19:04:51 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122526&oldid=122520 * Imakesi * (+62)
19:06:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Imakesi * uploaded "[[File:JaredTheCat.png]]"
19:06:41 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122528&oldid=122526 * Imakesi * (+66)
19:06:59 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122529&oldid=122528 * Imakesi * (+0)
19:07:34 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122530&oldid=122529 * Imakesi * (+22)
19:10:32 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122531&oldid=122530 * Imakesi * (-88)
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19:21:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck+2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122532 * EvyLah * (+154) Created page with "Ok, I'm actually surprised that a online interpretation was made for this. ~~~~"
19:24:27 <esolangs> [[Titled]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122533 * EvyLah * (+1197) Created page with "'''Titled''' is mostly a copy of [[brainfuck]], however there are 2 more commands (technically making it [[Brainfuck+2]]) and one quirk. ==Code execution== In Titled, programs are written inside of the file's name. There are no external files; just rename the interpreter
19:35:41 <esolangs> [[Electra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122534&oldid=121976 * DolphyWind * (+1356)
19:38:03 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122535&oldid=122533 * EvyLah * (+2713)
19:38:26 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122536&oldid=122535 * EvyLah * (+25)
19:39:49 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122537&oldid=122536 * EvyLah * (+46)
19:40:23 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122538&oldid=122537 * EvyLah * (+3)
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19:42:03 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122539&oldid=122538 * EvyLah * (-10)
19:42:39 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122540&oldid=122539 * EvyLah * (+59)
19:44:17 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122541&oldid=122540 * EvyLah * (+0)
19:46:05 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122542&oldid=122541 * EvyLah * (+0)
19:46:30 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122543&oldid=122542 * EvyLah * (+13)
19:48:38 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122544&oldid=122543 * EvyLah * (+77)
19:49:28 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122545&oldid=122544 * EvyLah * (-31)
19:49:47 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122546&oldid=122545 * EvyLah * (+0)
19:52:07 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122547&oldid=122546 * EvyLah * (+36)
19:53:45 <esolangs> [[Charred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122548&oldid=100692 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1071) Rectified the Spam Alphabet example and supplemented three further programs.
19:54:27 <esolangs> [[Charred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122549&oldid=122548 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+166) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Charred programming language on GitHub.
19:56:21 <esolangs> [[Charred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122550&oldid=122549 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+966) Supplemented a tabular aperu concerning the employed character code mapping.
19:58:48 <ais523> zzo38: re things like the "damage prevention step", the Netrunner rules people worked out a way to allow people to activate abilities in the middle of the resolution of another ability
19:58:58 <ais523> meaning that Netrunner's regeneration-like abilities work quite intuitively
19:59:20 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122551&oldid=122414 * EvyLah * (+34)
20:00:18 <ais523> (the rules are: you can only activate an ability in the middle of another ability if it has an "[interrupt]" marker that gives you permission to do that, and it also has a requirement that specifies what the ability in question must do for the activation to be legal; and resolving abilities create windows in which you can activate relevant interruption abilities, which are resolved before the ability continues to resolve)
20:00:35 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122552&oldid=122504 * EvyLah * (+30)
20:01:45 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122553&oldid=117748 * EvyLah * (-44)
20:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122554&oldid=118511 * EvyLah * (-45) Blanked the page
20:02:59 <ais523> most of them prevent something happening, in which case they can only be activated during an ability that would cause that thing to happen
20:03:18 <b_jonas> ais523: Magic has that but only in vestiges.
20:03:29 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Rhystic Shield
20:03:32 <HackEso> Rhystic Shield \ 1W \ Instant \ Creatures you control get +0/+1 until end of turn. They get an additional +0/+2 until end of turn unless any player pays {2}. \ PR-C
20:03:59 <ais523> b_jonas: you can activate mana abilities during a resolving ability if that ability gives players the opportunity to pay mana, yes
20:04:08 <b_jonas> ^ when an ability says something like "unless any player pays {2}" then players are allowed to activate mana abilities only, right there during resolving that ability
20:04:21 <b_jonas> that, plus there's one more exceptional case
20:04:27 <b_jonas> but it's a rather crazy one
20:04:35 <ais523> Panglacial Wurm?
20:04:39 <ais523> `card-by-name Panglacial Wurm
20:04:40 <HackEso> Panglacial Wurm \ 5GG \ Creature -- Wurm \ 9/5 \ Trample \ While you're searching your library, you may cast Panglacial Wurm from your library. \ CSP-R
20:04:42 <b_jonas> yes
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20:05:25 <ais523> Yugioh has some cards that you can summon directly from your deck, if certain conditions are met
20:06:00 <ais523> (I think there's a rule that you have to shuffle your deck afterwards, even though it isn't explicitly stated on the card)
20:06:10 <b_jonas> the much more common case is that you can activate mana abilities during casting a spell, which seems kind of unnecessary, because you could almost always just activate those mana abilities before that, so this is probably just a convenience rule for Online
20:06:15 <ais523> https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Awakening_of_the_Possessed_-_Nefariouser_Archfiend is probably the most popular
20:06:43 <ais523> (incidentally, I am not convinced that "nefariouser" is a real word, it should be "more nefarious", but I suspect they ran out of space in the name box
20:06:44 <ais523> )
20:07:08 <ais523> b_jonas: so I found out fairly recently about the history of that rule
20:07:10 <b_jonas> eh, it's a fantasy card game, it's normal if it invents words for card games
20:07:29 <ais523> apparently in some early pro tour, one player was persistently tapping lands for spells after casting them, rather than before
20:07:33 <ais523> apparently out of habit
20:07:46 <zzo38> The mana step during casting a spell is sometimes relevant, even though usually it does not matter. The mana step is more relevant for costs of attacking and blocking, though.
20:07:54 <ais523> they received several warnings, and eventually ended up getting disqualified for breaking the same rule repeatedly, but by then it was the semifinals or possibly finals
20:08:00 <ais523> and this caused an actual riot
20:08:06 <ais523> because the other players thought the disqualification was unfair
20:08:16 <ais523> so, the rules were changed to allow tapping lands while casting a spell, rather than beforehnand
20:08:19 <b_jonas> sure, but you should just interpret that as a shortcut for tapping the lands first then casting the spell.
20:08:38 <ais523> I am not sure that shortcuts existed at the time; but yes, that would be a better fix
20:08:59 <ais523> as zzo38 says, there are some cases it matters, e.g. casting a spell with Improvise using Gold tokens (or Black Lotus)
20:09:11 <ais523> or, hmm, does black lotus tap?
20:09:25 <ais523> gold tokens don't, so you can tap them to pay 1 of the mana and sacrifice them to play another
20:09:36 <ais523> same interaction comes up with Skirk Prospector and convoke spells
20:10:08 <zzo38> Black Lotus does require tapping to be activated
20:10:18 <b_jonas> I know there are a few cases when it matters, and it's those cases why I'd prefer if activating mana abilities during casting weren't allowed
20:11:09 <ais523> it'd at least fix the selvala/panglacial wurm interaction
20:11:16 <ais523> which I'm not sure was ever satisfactorily resolved
20:11:35 <zzo38> Also, the mana step applies before the costs of the spell are paid (although after the spell enters the stack; which is sometimes what matters).
20:11:47 <ais523> (selvala has a mana ability that creates a random amount of mana and also draws cards – the issue is that you can try to use it to cast panglacial wurm and then discover you don't have enough mana)
20:11:49 <b_jonas> for ordinary cases when you're just casting a lightnign bolt and tapping your mountain during it's fine, and if the rule didn't exist you'd just do that as a shortcut
20:12:03 <b_jonas> and the complex cases just cause rule headaches and shouldn't be allowed
20:12:26 <ais523> although, the mana step being after the spell is moved to the stack at least avoids the situation where you draw the panglacial wurm you're trying to cast
20:12:58 <zzo38> I don't know how to solve the issue with Selvala either; possibly adding errata that requires priority to activate its ability. I have written some unofficial rules of Magic: the Gathering, but it does not solve that problem yet.
20:13:49 <ais523> I think the best fix is just to add the "activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant" restriction, like Lion's Eye Diamond has
20:13:54 <ais523> `card-by-name Lion's Eye Diamond
20:13:55 <HackEso> Lion's Eye Diamond \ 0 \ Artifact \ Discard your hand, Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond: Add three mana of any one color. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant. \ MI-R, VMA-M
20:14:25 <b_jonas> ais523: wouldn't that just mostly fail, as in if you're trying to tap Selvala for mana while a spell is resolved then the cards aren't actually revealed until later, you fail to add any mana, players draw cards but can't look at them yet, then since you don't have enough mana the whole thing gets reverted but since you didn't reveal anything this causes no problems?
20:14:37 <esolangs> [[SemiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122555&oldid=122531 * Imakesi * (+77)
20:15:03 <b_jonas> sure, making that not a mana ability would also make sense,
20:15:06 <ais523> b_jonas: the problem is that selvala generates mana based on which cards were drawn
20:15:15 <ais523> so you can't just not look at them
20:15:35 <ais523> although, I forgot that cards drawn during the resolution of a mana ability are drawn face down – that rule doesn't come up very often
20:16:03 <ais523> (technically the cards are drawn face down with selvala, but they were revealed earlier during the resolution of the same ability)
20:16:33 <zzo38> That restriction is what I had suggested, but I think that the words "activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant" is too long in my opinion; so on my own custom cards I used the much shorter phrase "requires priority", which has the same effect (and I added a rule which says that).
20:16:57 <b_jonas> ais523: I thought there was a rules patch or ruling about this for some other card, maybe Chandra Ablaze or something, and if you can't look at the cards then they won't match nonland so you don't get mana
20:17:12 <ais523> I think they should add "once per turn when" as a phrase that indicates a triggered ability (like "when", "whenever", and "at"), but the triggered ability triggers only once per turn if it uses that phrase
20:17:32 <ais523> abilities like that are being used increasingly often in Magic at the moment, but the current templating is both misleading and very wordy
20:17:41 <zzo38> The rule that cards drawn while a spell is in the process of being cast (rule 121.8; it isn't as general as you say but it should be), says that, and also says that card has no characteristics during that time.
20:18:05 <ais523> `card-by-name Selvala, Explorer Returned
20:18:06 <HackEso> Selvala, Explorer Returned \ 1GW \ Legendary Creature -- Elf Scout \ 2/4 \ Parley -- {T}: Each player reveals the top card of their library. For each nonland card revealed this way, add {G} and you gain 1 life. Then each player draws a card. \ CNS-R, C16-R, VMA-R
20:18:14 <ais523> b_jonas: the problem is that Selvala explicitly reveals the cards
20:18:21 <b_jonas> ais523: the rules don't specifically say this, but they're clearly written so that when abilities say "reveal" or "look at" or you draw cards or for other reasons could look at new cards, then you can't look at them while the game is in a state that can be rolled back. except for some cases when players leave the game.
20:18:30 <ais523> and checks the characteristics before they're drawn
20:18:33 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, let me check the rules
20:19:00 <ais523> it would be hilarious if selvala revealed them face down during the casting of Panglacial Wurm – that would be one way to fix the interaction
20:19:44 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not just during the casting of Panglacial Wurm, it does that whenever you do that while paying for a spell or ability during casting it
20:19:50 <b_jonas> at least I think so, I'll check the rules
20:20:04 <b_jonas> so normally you just activate Selvala when you're not casting any spell
20:20:22 <b_jonas> 121.8
20:20:22 <zzo38> However, the interpretation of rule 121.8 is confusing; see: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7 Judges seem to disagree about this puzzle.
20:22:24 <b_jonas> 121.8. If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast […] or until the casting process is reversed […]. The same is true with relation to another ability being activated. If an effect allows or instructs a player to reveal the card as it’s being drawn, it’s revealed after the spell becomes cast or
20:22:30 <b_jonas> the ability becomes activated. While face down, the drawn card is considered to have no characteristics and can’t be used to pay any part of the cost of the spell or ability that would require the card to have specific characteristics.
20:22:43 <b_jonas> this pretty clearly applies to Selvala
20:23:33 <b_jonas> it's older than Selvala, it just didn't use to come up so often, because you needed multi-card interactions to get into really weird situations. Selvala does it all in one card.
20:24:28 <zzo38> Yes, it does clearly apply to Selvala.
20:24:39 <ais523> b_jonas: it doesn't apply to Selvala, it's specific to a) cards that are drawn, b) cards that are revealed as they are drwan
20:24:49 <ais523> Selvala explicitly reveals the card before it is drawn, rather than as or after
20:24:53 <b_jonas> hmm
20:24:53 <ais523> and thus the requirements of the rule are met
20:25:02 <b_jonas> so it applies only when a card is drawn! I see
20:25:25 <b_jonas> yeah, that's a problem. so that's why you're saying they should fix the rules for taht
20:26:57 <zzo38> Of course Selvala avoids the problems of the card being unknown, because they are revealed; however, it also says the cards are drawn afterward, and you still might not have enough mana by the time they are activated.
20:28:04 <zzo38> However, there is a ruling for Selvala to mention what happens in that case; the interaction with Panglacial Wurm is still unclear though, since you might not have had an opportunity to activate it otherwise.
20:28:56 <b_jonas> I don't understand, why is Selvala more of a problem with Panglacial Wurm than otherwise if you're trying to tap it for mana while paying to activate a spell or ability?
20:29:51 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, maybe it isn't? there's just the separate problem of drawing cards while searching your library, before you shuffle
20:29:59 <zzo38> For one thing, effects that allow you to search your library will usually result in shuffling your library afterward, so the top card will be a different one
20:30:22 <ais523> that said, other games don't seem to have the trouble that Magic does with looking at cards without reordering them
20:31:02 <ais523> "look at the top three cards of your opponent's deck, then put them back in the same order" is a very common effect in Netrunner
20:31:31 <ais523> and some cards even trigger in response to the opponent looking at them for certain reasons, and require the opponent to reveal them when that happened (so that their owner knows that they triggered)
20:31:54 <ais523> it is difficult to cheat this without being caught, as the cards are likely to get drawn eventually
20:32:26 <ais523> and the "look at" is generally done by having their owner lift them up and show them, holding the card so that only their opponent can see them
20:34:34 <esolangs> [[Titled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122556&oldid=122547 * EvyLah * (+3) /* Python */
20:35:52 <b_jonas> ah, you mean drawing a card while you're searching the library. that's not that strange I think.
20:36:42 <zzo38> (Normally you cannot use mana abilities while searching your library.)
20:38:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, so for just the one weird Wurm it is actually helpful that you can use mana abilities while searching your library
20:39:25 <ais523> is there any situation in Magic where you might end up searching your library unexpectedly?
20:40:16 <ais523> most times you'd search are as the consequence of an ability resolving, so if you know you're about to be given a search, and have a panglacial wurm you want to cast, you could just tap mana before the search happens
20:40:32 <ais523> I guess it's possible to not know whether or not there's a panglacial wurm in your deck (e.g. because your opponent is playing Pyxis of Pandemonium)
20:40:34 <b_jonas> it's probably rare
20:40:56 <ais523> incidentally, in Yugioh you can look at your own face-down banished cards, because you have a responsibility to know what's in your deck at all times
20:41:16 <ais523> and, e.g., not look at your deck if you're given the opportunity to search for a card that isn't in there
20:41:39 <ais523> (you can't fail to find in Yugioh – you aren't allowed to legally start a search unless there's an appropriate card to search for)
20:42:09 <ais523> (and the game is actually balanced around this, with many cards having the downside of having to search some terrible card out of your deck, so in order to play them you have to dilute the deck by adding the card in question)
20:44:39 <b_jonas> I'm not entirely sure, but I think even before Selvala you could have a case when you'd first be able to look at a card while you're tapping mana abilities while casting a spell. Say there's an Opalescence in play, a Telepathy, and you have a Humility in play. The Humility deactivates the ability of Telepathy, so you can't see opponent's hands. While trying to cast a creature, you tap Phyrexian Tower
20:44:45 <b_jonas> and sacrifice Humility for it (it's a creature because of Opalescence). Then the Telepathy should kick in.
20:46:32 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could make something like this from old cards where you also can't know in advance whether you will be able to finish casting the spell or have to revert it.
20:47:09 <ais523> I thought Telepathy didn't work in the middle of casting a spell, but I'm not sure
20:48:04 <b_jonas> ais523: 121.8 should suppress it, but we just found that it doesn't
20:48:08 <b_jonas> maybe there's some other rule?
20:48:29 <b_jonas> I also wonder if perhaps Telepathy doesn't gain the ability back until later
20:48:33 <b_jonas> but I think it gains it back immediately
20:48:45 <ais523> I vaguely remember watching games of Lantern Control on MTGO
20:49:07 <ais523> which should give an accurate representation of whether telepathy-like effects are on or not at various points in the game
20:49:11 <ais523> `card-by-name Lantern of Insight
20:49:12 <HackEso> Lantern of Insight \ 1 \ Artifact \ Players play with the top card of their libraries revealed. \ {T}, Sacrifice Lantern of Insight: Target player shuffles their library. \ 5DN-U
20:49:26 <ais523> oh wow, that's so much better than Telepathy in most respects
20:49:37 <ais523> artifacts are a bit easier to destroy than enchantments, but it's cheaper and has a bonus ability
20:49:48 <ais523> or, well, Telepathy is opponent's library only, right?
20:49:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Telepathy
20:49:53 <HackEso> Telepathy \ U \ Enchantment \ Your opponents play with their hands revealed. \ US-U, 7E-U, 8ED-U, 9ED-U, 10E-U, M10-U
20:49:58 <ais523> oh, hands, not library
20:50:37 <ais523> I still think Lantern is better, being able to see your own library is useful, and being able to see your opponent's top-of-library on an ongoing basis is usually better than being able to see their hand on an ongoing basis
20:51:12 <b_jonas> possible, Telepathy is just the one I was familiar with
20:52:01 <ais523> I have seen Telepathy because i actually own the card, somewhere
20:52:04 <ais523> it isn't very good
20:52:15 <ais523> Lantern is a little older and I don't own it, but it's been more competitively played
20:52:25 <b_jonas> hmm, let me check, I don't remember if I own Telepathy or not
20:52:31 <ais523> (there is some doubt as to whether Lantern Control was ever actually a *good* deck, but it had a run of popularity at one point)
20:53:29 <ais523> the idea is to play Lantern + lots of mill and shuffle effects, together with lockpieces that make many cards uncastable or otherwise useless, and ensure your opponent never draws a useful card for the rest of the game
20:57:56 <b_jonas> Air Bladder, Aquitect's Will, Cerulean Wisps, Coral Net, Cut the Earthly Bond, Diminish, Dream's Grip, Essence Flare, Flight, Index, Infiltrate, Intervene, Mental Note, Peek, Ponder, Preordain, Reach Throught Mists, Sea's Claim (9th Edition), Serum Visions, Shimmering Wings, Sigil of Sleep, Unsummon, Wind Zendikon, and then 2 cmc cards. No, I don't have Telepathy.
21:01:49 <b_jonas> I'm not follwing Magic much so I didn't even remember which box has the blue cards
21:02:26 <ais523> I've been keeping up to date with Legacy, but not really the other formats
21:02:44 <b_jonas> I guess I could label the boxes from the outside, but while I was buying M:tG cards I changed what's in what box multiple times
21:02:56 <ais523> Standard was badly broken recently (and might still be but I'm not sure), Modern has been broken for a while, and I haven't been following Pioneer very much
21:03:28 <ais523> and Vintage is not really any worse than it's always been, but continues to not have very much variety
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21:09:42 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122557 * Imakesi * (+5063) Created page with "'''Brainthon''' is an esoteric programming language designed to output text, in the worst way possible. === Syntax === {| class="wikitable" |+ Guide |- | || Increment current ASCII value by 1 |- | || Append current ASCII character to current string |- | || Print current s
21:12:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122558&oldid=122557 * Imakesi * (+371)
21:12:28 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122559&oldid=122558 * Imakesi * (-2)
21:12:30 <ais523> hmm, website I just discovered, which seems relevant to this channel: https://bbchallenge.org/story
21:12:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122560&oldid=122559 * Imakesi * (-2)
21:12:58 <ais523> they are trying to decide halting for all 2-symbol 5-state Turing machines
21:13:39 <ais523> (starting from a blank tape)
21:16:59 <b_jonas> that is relevant to the channel, yes
21:21:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Imakesi * moved [[]] to [[Esolang:Brainthon]]: Emojis.
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21:46:51 <esolangs> [[GDLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122575&oldid=122572 * EvyLah * (+309)
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22:01:55 <esolangs> [[GDLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122578&oldid=122577 * EvyLah * (-5)
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