00:02:03 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
00:02:18 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133136&oldid=133135 * TheCanon2 * (+66) Program has a mistake and I dont care to actually fix it
00:03:43 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:06:22 -!- mtm has joined.
00:23:32 -!- X-Scale has joined.
00:27:21 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133137&oldid=132851 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
00:27:47 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133138&oldid=132899 * PrySigneToFry * (+33)
00:38:32 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133139&oldid=133136 * TheCanon2 * (-66) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133136|133136]] by [[Special:Contributions/TheCanon2|TheCanon2]] ([[User talk:TheCanon2|talk]])
01:00:15 <esolangs> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133140&oldid=132911 * TheCanon2 * (+221) Added another interpreter.
01:13:58 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
01:19:24 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
01:28:49 -!- X-Scale has quit (Quit: Client closed).
01:29:23 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:38:27 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
01:48:57 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:52:31 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
02:18:03 -!- X-Scale has joined.
02:28:22 <esolangs> [[H]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133141 * TheCanon2 * (+1759) Created a new esolang H
02:34:00 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133142&oldid=133141 * TheCanon2 * (+11) Fixed formatting error
02:35:52 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133143&oldid=132807 * TheCanon2 * (+20) Added H to my page
03:12:53 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:14:53 <b_jonas> in M:tG, can you bound the amount of hidden information revealed to a player at any point of the game, and the amount of hidden information that the player makes in their decisions, with a bound that any other player can compute? ideally a small enough bound? eg. if I look at a card, I learn only as many bits as needed to describe what printing it is, and there are only a few ten thousand available in
03:14:59 <b_jonas> any format. if I search my deck with a Tutor then I learn the order of much more cards, but other players will still know how many cards there are in my deck, so the can bound how much information I learn, and then my decision for which card I pick is a choice from one plus as many possibilities as there are cards in the deck. I'm asking this as a simplified theoretical model for when I play M:tG on
03:15:05 <b_jonas> computer through a trusted third party simulating the game state and rules, can this be designed such that the sizes of (encrypted) messages sent between me and the third party don't leak information in theory.
03:20:55 <b_jonas> there are some tricky cases like
03:21:01 <b_jonas> `card-by-name choice of damnations
03:21:04 <HackEso> Choice of Damnations \ 5B \ Sorcery -- Arcane \ Target opponent chooses a number. You may have that player lose that much life. If you don't, that player sacrifices all but that many permanents. \ SOK-R
03:23:26 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Squee's Revenge
03:23:28 <HackEso> Squee's Revenge \ 1UR \ Sorcery \ Choose a number. Flip a coin that many times or until you lose a flip, whichever comes first. If you win all the flips, draw two cards for each flip. \ AP-U
03:24:45 <b_jonas> Wheel of Misfortune is another one
03:26:11 <b_jonas> ok, I'm not sure if this is possible in theory then. the practical question is if you can give a small enough upper bound that works in almost all cases except it may fail for some weird ones like these cards when a player makes an unusual choice, rather than in theory having a bound but it requiring messages longer than the size of the universe
03:27:08 <zzo38> Some information is going to be known by both players anyways (you could have a separate part of the message, perhaps with a HMAC, in this case), although other than that I don't know.
03:27:53 <zzo38> When searching your library, most effects you will shuffle the library afterward anyways, but the card you pick is just one in however many cards there are; this is also true if you have to select a card from your hand without showing your opponent, etc.
03:29:13 <b_jonas> or at least, is there a reasonable bound in cases before the simulation breaks down anyway because you've created a huge game state that's hard to track, like an amount of tokens larger than the size of the universe
03:32:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: shuffle after search => yes, but there are cases like Spin into Myth when the opponent may have rearranged your library in an order that they know but you don't, and then you learn that order when you search, before you shuffle
03:34:06 <b_jonas> and IIRC there were even some weird cases when you do something with your library while there are tokens or copies of spells in it before those tokens evaporate
03:38:16 <b_jonas> ok, in fact I should ask, is that possible?
03:39:19 <b_jonas> you can have the cost of a mana ability sacrifice a token copy of Darksteel Colossus to get a token into your library while you pay for something, but that's not enough
03:41:56 <b_jonas> you can also use Deranged Assistant to mill a card as the cost of a mana ability, and that can mill such a token.
03:42:32 <b_jonas> but was there some way to shuffle or reorder your library while there are still tokens in it?
03:42:54 <zzo38> Does "draw a card" skip over anything that isn't a card, or will you draw whatever object is in the top of your library even if it is not a card? Similar with mill; it specifically says cards, but does not specifically say that objects other than cards do not count, so it is unclear
03:44:01 <b_jonas> I guess there probably wasn't, because most of the time it would run into the limit that you would have to learn hidden info while the game is in a state that may need to be reverted because a spell can't be cast
03:44:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it still acts on anything in your library that isn't a card
03:47:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: 608.2j would be the relevant rule, but I'm not sure it covers this
03:48:35 <b_jonas> hmm no, that rule probably doesn't apply, it only mentions "changed characteristics", being a card or not isn't a characteristics, and it doesn't change here
03:48:58 <b_jonas> I don't know the answer then
03:49:08 <b_jonas> `card-by-name darksteel colossus
03:49:10 <HackEso> Darksteel Colossus \ 11 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 11/11 \ Trample, indestructible \ If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead. \ DST-R, M10-M
04:01:42 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
04:07:49 <b_jonas> this is annoying, apparently rule 121.8, which hides cards while you're in a revertable state trying to cast a spell, is too narrowly worded and doesn't cover Deranged Assistant, so you reveal the milled card. why didn't they amend that rule?
04:09:54 <b_jonas> it gets worse if that spell is Disentomb which might or might not be possible to cast depending on what you milled
04:14:29 <b_jonas> what I wanted to ask is, if during casting a spell you pay for it by saccing a token copy of Darksteel Colossus to Phyrexian Tower so it immediately goes into your library, then is it public information what position in the library the token is, but it appears this might not cause an observable difference, because Deranged Assistant reveals the card you milled anyway, and in most other cases the
04:14:35 <b_jonas> position of the token doesn't matter before it evaporates
04:25:38 <b_jonas> 601.2 says that during casting a spell, you pay costs late enough, after choosing targets and other choices, that what the mill reveals won't be able to influence your choices, you can't target a card in the graveyard that Phy Tower moved there. and I think, but I'm not sure, that if you sac a permanent to Phy Tower that's a target of the spell, you can still finish casting the spell, that the target is
04:25:44 <b_jonas> invalid isn't checked again until the spell resolved
04:25:49 <b_jonas> heck, I'm confused by all these rules and I'm probably getting a lot wrong.
04:49:55 <esolangs> [[H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133144&oldid=133142 * TheCanon2 * (+354) Added a Hello World program
04:50:47 <b_jonas> hmm no that's probably not true and I just confused myself
04:53:36 -!- CATS has quit (Server closed connection).
04:53:54 -!- CATS has joined.
04:56:42 -!- int-e has quit (Server closed connection).
04:56:52 -!- int-e has joined.
05:00:18 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in).
05:07:38 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
05:10:45 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
05:14:04 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
05:14:08 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133145&oldid=133117 * Unname4798 * (+18)
05:14:24 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133146&oldid=133145 * Unname4798 * (+1)
05:16:20 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Server closed connection).
05:16:26 <esolangs> [[Translated JS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133147 * Unname4798 * (+2153) Created page with "1. Take [[Arithmetic]] interpreter in JS: <pre> function interpret(a){const e=a.split`\n`;let o="",st=x=p=c=P=C=+o,r,v;for(const n of e){if((!++C)||n==[])continue;if(st==0&&n=="==Begin Exam "+ ++x+"=="&&++st&&!(v={},p=c=P=+!v))continue;if(st==1&&(m=n.match(/^([
05:16:28 <b_jonas> I'll have to read 601.2 carefully to see how this works
05:16:37 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
05:24:44 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:30:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:32:40 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
05:54:30 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in).
05:57:15 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
06:04:11 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:05:17 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
06:05:44 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
06:55:36 -!- __monty__ has joined.
06:59:59 -!- tromp has joined.
07:00:32 -!- xelxebar has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
07:17:40 -!- xelxebar has joined.
07:24:36 -!- xelxebar has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
07:24:48 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
07:25:02 -!- xelxebar has joined.
07:33:37 -!- xelxebar has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
07:34:02 -!- xelxebar has joined.
07:53:14 -!- cpressey has joined.
07:55:25 -!- tromp has joined.
08:14:12 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
08:30:53 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
09:09:54 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in).
09:11:49 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
09:43:18 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:43:58 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
10:28:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
10:28:51 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133148&oldid=133146 * Unname4798 * (+18)
10:33:08 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133149&oldid=133148 * Unname4798 * (-18)
10:38:56 -!- tromp has joined.
10:47:22 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:49:05 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
10:52:37 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:54:06 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
11:02:09 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
11:10:26 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
11:16:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Laptop-Salad * New user account
11:19:33 -!- mcfrdy has quit (Server closed connection).
11:19:53 -!- mcfrdy has joined.
11:28:06 -!- sprout has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:31:24 -!- Noisytoot has changed nick to Guest7326.
11:31:24 -!- Guest7326 has quit (Killed (lithium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))).
11:31:28 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
11:31:58 -!- sprout has joined.
11:33:19 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:51:52 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
11:57:32 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
12:01:10 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:03:43 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:04:40 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
12:05:28 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
12:06:23 -!- mtm has joined.
12:07:41 <wib_jonas> oh this is great! in Windows 10, I have a batch file where one line says `>a.txt .\animal.exe` . the batch file executes the right thing and redirects to the right place, but it echoes the command as `.\animal.exe1>a.txt` which is not actually valid cmd syntax
12:18:36 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133150&oldid=133120 * Xff * (+155) /* operations/ISA */
12:22:37 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:26:47 -!- laerling has quit (Server closed connection).
12:26:56 -!- laerling has joined.
12:32:10 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
12:40:33 -!- m5zs7k has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:41:37 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
12:43:03 -!- tromp has joined.
12:43:25 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133151&oldid=133150 * Xff * (-113)
12:43:28 -!- X-Scale has joined.
12:43:38 -!- tromp has quit (Client Quit).
12:44:52 -!- tromp has joined.
12:44:52 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:54:21 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
12:58:51 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:01:17 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
13:06:53 -!- cpressey has joined.
13:07:24 -!- amby has joined.
13:13:55 -!- m5zs7k has joined.
13:25:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133152&oldid=113660 * Rico040 * (+168) /* Whether this esolang is case sensitive or not */
13:30:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Xff * uploaded "[[File:Ascii table-chart.png]]"
13:33:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133154&oldid=133151 * Xff * (+729)
13:41:07 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
13:50:28 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133155&oldid=133154 * Xff * (+326)
13:52:09 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133156&oldid=133155 * Xff * (+7) /* idea 3 */
14:13:07 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:13:33 <ais523> b_jonas: there are people working on a deck that can do busy beaver amounts of damage, but not infinite damage – and Wheel of Fortune can be comboed with Pact of Intervention to gain an arbitrary amount of life
14:13:44 <ais523> which means that, theoretically, if you're doing that combo it's optimal to name a busy beaver number
14:14:29 <ais523> (also that ping of me was pointless, I don't get pinged in the logs so I will notice the conversation before I notice the ping)
14:15:46 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:15:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133157&oldid=133121 * Ais523 * (-256) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133121|133121]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) please don't confuse new users
14:16:23 -!- chiselfuse has joined.
14:18:53 <int-e> ais523: I didn't think it would ping you... but my impression is that it sometimes catches your eyes when reading logs
14:20:47 <ais523> I more commonly read the content of the messages than the pings
14:21:19 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there is one way to make an arbitrary amount of secret information in Magic: make arbitrarily many token copies of A Killer Among Us
14:22:56 <ais523> that card was printed pretty recently, so there may have been a limit on secret information until this year (I don't know the exact release date offhand but the card is copyright 2024)
14:29:21 -!- X-Scale49 has joined.
14:30:07 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:31:56 <wib_jonas> ais523: interesting, but that isn't a counterexample to what I was asking. it will be public information how many of those tokens I create, so from just public information you can compute an upper bound on the amount of secret information.
14:32:11 <wib_jonas> also... when did they rename tribal to kindred?
14:32:23 <ais523> MH3, the most recently printed set
14:32:23 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:32:38 <wib_jonas> that's unrelated to this question, I'm just wondering. I had heard that battle is now a card type, but this is new
14:32:42 -!- chiselfuse has joined.
14:33:05 <ais523> totem armor was also renamed to umbra armor at the same time
14:38:42 <ais523> it is still very awkward that "tribal" (formerly) / "kindred" (nowadays) is technically a noun in M:tG grammar despite being an adjective in English
14:41:26 <wib_jonas> meanwhile, I'm writing a program to count how many different polyminos there are. for ordinary polyminos, depending on what rotations or mirrorings you distinguish, you have https://oeis.org/A000105 https://oeis.org/A000988 https://oeis.org/A056780 https://oeis.org/A056783 https://oeis.org/A151522 https://oeis.org/A151525 https://oeis.org/A182645 .
14:41:26 <wib_jonas> confusingly the listings in OEIS for first two show the number of polyminos made of 0 cells, the listings for the rest don't, or something like that.
14:42:01 -!- X-Scale49 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:43:50 <esolangs> [[2dL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133158 * Xff * (+3033) Created page with "'''2dL''' is a 2d representation of lambda calculus.its no exactly lambda calculus but.. also it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == overview == memory is stored in two stacks. on stack holds functions(the '''function stack''') and another holds the input of these function(the
14:44:43 <wib_jonas> ais523: I think M:tG uses those words (and most other words meaning a characteristic) as both noun and adjective in rules text: "creature" as noun when it means a permanent, or "creature card" or "creature spell" as noun phrase (so "creature" in that is an adjective) when it's an object in another zone
14:45:08 <wib_jonas> ok, not most other words meaning a characteristic, "red" isn't used as a noun to mean red permanents
14:48:10 <wib_jonas> but many subtypes are used as both: https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/8/benalish-commander "number of Soldiers you control" vs https://scryfall.com/card/apc/9/enlistment-officer "all Soldier cards revealed this way"
14:49:12 <wib_jonas> and they do this even when the word for the type name is usually an adjective in ordinary English, see Boldwyr Imitator
14:53:40 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133159&oldid=133158 * Gggfr * (+46)
14:55:32 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133160&oldid=133159 * Gggfr * (+0)
14:55:48 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133161 * Tommyaweosme * (+676) Created page with "{{stub}} A '''markov algorithm''' (or markov chain) is a form of artificial intelligence used in various fields of science, including programming. == How it works == One term has a chance to go to other terms, but the chances are different, and the path it
14:56:48 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133162&oldid=133161 * Tommyaweosme * (+6) listify
14:57:25 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133163&oldid=132948 * Tommyaweosme * (+90)
15:01:41 <ais523> wib_jonas: I am not 100% sure on the name that people who study grammar give to it, but a noun can be used like an adjective in some circumstances and I think that's one of them
15:01:58 <ais523> as in "Soldier creature" / "Soldier card"
15:03:33 <ais523> or indeed "Magic card", when referring to the game of Magic: the Gathering (which is a noun) – it doesn't mean "a card that is magic" but "a card that is part of the game Magic"
15:16:08 <APic> Or like the Soldier Ant inside the epic NetHack4 ♥
15:22:36 <ais523> there is a surprising amount of overlap between NetHack players and esoprogrammers
15:22:46 <ais523> (to the extent that I am mildly upset that NetHack isn't, AFAICT, Turing-complete)
15:23:08 <ais523> I would probably make it TC if I could think of a way to do it without arousing suspicions
15:26:35 <APic> ais523: As a DevTeam-Member, You could easily make it so. 😌
15:27:47 <ais523> it would have to make sense with the rest of the game
15:30:07 <APic> Then You could at least add a small Toering-Branch 😉
15:30:59 <ais523> I wonder if the Sokoban branch counts as being enough to make it PSPACE-complete – my guess is no, the PSPACE-completeness is the complexity for a Sokoban *solver*, not the program that enforces the ruels
15:31:32 <esolangs> [[IBC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133164&oldid=77563 * TheCanon2 * (+250) Added a Hello, World! program
15:32:08 * APic would really, really like a Sokoban-Solver inside the Game 😉
15:32:16 <APic> Maybe as a Reward for killing Vlad or something
15:32:32 <APic> Without the Wiki-Spoiler, i totally suck at Sokoban
15:34:50 <ais523> well, vanilla NetHack has only 8 Sokoban levels
15:35:03 <ais523> so it isn't too bad to just memorize all of them
15:35:37 <ais523> I'm actually fairly good at Sokoban – about 10 years ago I was seriously ill and took a few months to recover, and one of the things I did to pass the time was to play Sokoban levels
15:35:53 <ais523> but they still quite frequently stumped me for ages
15:37:31 * APic has almost no Brain-Memory left
15:37:54 <APic> But i have my electronic Devices with me almost all the Time, so i can live with that very fine.
15:42:31 <korvo> Something's very quirky about Sokoban. I think it's the necessary backwards reasoning; one has to maintain a list of partial goals at all times. Rush Hour's got the same issue.
15:43:23 <korvo> Makes me wonder if there's a lesson about PSPACE-complete puzzles. Chess also comes apart this way, with "endgame" analysis.
15:54:22 <cpressey> A program that takes a Sokoban configuration, and a list of moves, as input, and outputs T if the moves solve the puzzle, or F otherwise.
15:56:15 <int-e> Sokoban solvability is in PSPACE though.
15:56:23 <int-e> Err PSPACE-complete.
15:56:44 <int-e> The game logic itself is firmly in P.
15:58:17 * int-e probably has more hours in Sokoban than in any other game. Though most of that was spent optimizing known solutions instead of solving new puzzles.
16:01:21 <int-e> (This means that optimal solutions can have exponential length. Which changes the meaning of P between verifier (input includes a solution) and solver)
16:06:56 <wib_jonas> you believe nethack is not yet Turing-complete, and would make it Turing-complete if it made sense in the game. that's reasonable, yes.
16:07:36 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed).
16:09:23 <int-e> I guess I could get back into Sokoban too if I tried... managed to untangle this one first try: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/soko.png
16:10:11 * cpressey tries to imagine a Sokoban board where the optimal solution has length exponential in the size of the board
16:11:15 <cpressey> I can't see it but I'm not immediately skeptical of it either
16:11:53 <cpressey> I used to have a Sokoban game on a candybar phone. I solved all the levels except one. I've been meaning to find that phone (or that level), write a Sokoban solver, have it tell me what the solution is
16:25:40 <esolangs> [[Theoretica]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133165&oldid=52549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) Categories
16:28:56 <esolangs> [[Braingolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133166&oldid=51911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Categories
16:30:30 <APic> The mazzoo once suggested me to install Pixel Dungeon on my Phone.
16:30:41 <APic> But i still liked and like NetHack4 much, much better.
16:30:49 <APic> Pixel Dungeon even has multiple different Keys.
16:30:59 <APic> We really, really do not need moar Keys than Skeleton Keys.
16:40:27 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:12:46 <b_jonas> APic: you could play Spelunky 2, it only has three kinds of keys (ordinary key, gold key, skeleton key).
17:15:03 <APic> In NetHack, we have Credit Cards, Skeleton Keys and Lockpicks.
17:18:54 <b_jonas> APic: and the MKOT, and you STILL can't reliably disarm chest traps unless you're a rogue with the MKOT because the formula is stupid, even though this could be fixed with a one-line patch
17:19:36 <b_jonas> I'm still really annoyed about that
17:19:50 * APic loved always getting blasted when i used it. 😉
17:23:58 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:37:11 -!- joast has joined.
17:40:42 -!- tromp has joined.
17:58:16 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133167&oldid=132001 * B jonas * (+10) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */ ais523 has a point
18:10:40 <int-e> Okay this was fun to reconstruct (I have read the Sokoban is PSPACE paper but that was ages ago.) IIRC they bootstrapped everything from 2, (maybe 3) simple gadgets. 2 are enough to do binary counting: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sokoban-1-bit-counter.png
18:12:01 -!- SGautam has joined.
18:12:22 <int-e> (the point here is that you have to use the entry (where the agent is) twice in order to exit below once; the first time you have to use the left path instead to prepare the right path to become usable)
18:12:42 <int-e> cpressey left of course
18:13:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
18:13:47 <int-e> So you can stack several of those and force an exponential solution length
18:15:59 <int-e> The two basic gadgets here are the usual one-way gadget (this has four of those) and a weird back-and-forth gadget (that can be used in one direction and reset by going back; but you can also add extra reset paths if you protect that by its own back-and-forth gadget)
18:17:37 <b_jonas> ok, so back to polyminos. for ordinary polyminos, depending on what rotations and mirrorings count as the same polymino: none => https://oeis.org/A001168 (2,6,19,63), central => https://oeis.org/A151522 (2,4,13,35,120), horz => https://oeis.org/A151525 (2,4,12,35,116), diag => https://oeis.org/A182645 (1,4,10,34), rect => https://oeis.org/A056780 (2,3,9,21), diamond => https://oeis.org/A056783
18:17:43 <b_jonas> (1,3,7,20), rotate => https://oeis.org/A000988 (1,2,7,18), square => https://oeis.org/A000105 (1,2,5,12,35,108).
18:17:55 <b_jonas> 35 shows up in three of these sequences, but that's probably just a co-incidence
18:22:54 <int-e> why have I done that relatively recently (without considering symmetries)... oh because of https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/June2022.html
18:24:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:25:43 <b_jonas> now weighted polyminos aka polyminos with multiplicity, that is, the same square can be used multiple times. none => https://oeis.org/A113174 (3,11,44,184), central => (3,7,28,98,422,1768,7912,35489,162809,751789), horz => (3,8,29,106,433,1821,7998,35818,163398,753770), diag => (2,7,24,98,405,1768,7837,35488,162468,751776), rect => (3,6,21,63,248,963,4158,18190,82522,378409,1759438), diamond =>
18:25:50 <b_jonas> (2,5,16,55,220,910,3997,17860,81592,376415,1754071), rotate => (2,4,15,50,212,885,3959,17747,81407,375897,1753218), square => https://oeis.org/A331621 (2,4,12,35).
18:25:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
18:25:59 <b_jonas> interestingly most of these aren't in OEIS
18:28:14 <b_jonas> next I want to do polykings, which is an easy modification of the current program, as well as polyminos with the squares coming in two or three distinct colors. then polyamonds, polyhexes, 3-d polyminos, and perhaps 4-d polyminos: these are harder both because the shapes are not so easy to show in a dumb terminal for debugging, and also I need to find all the symmetry groups.
18:32:52 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:33:10 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
18:34:58 <b_jonas> I'll also compute a few more terms of these, though not as many as there are already in the OEIS
18:36:18 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
18:38:47 -!- Bowserinator_ has quit (Server closed connection).
18:38:58 <b_jonas> I might also want to compute the polyshapes on the 4D densest sphere packing grid, you know the one
18:39:09 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
18:39:38 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
18:44:30 -!- cpressey has joined.
18:49:01 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133168&oldid=133162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Capitalisation, external resources, category
18:53:00 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:58:06 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
19:29:42 <esolangs> [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133169&oldid=100705 * Int-e * (+2646) /* Computational class */
19:30:43 <int-e> esolangs: whoops, forgot the message; it's about the 2 counter case
19:33:17 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133170&oldid=133160 * Xff * (+84)
19:37:21 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133171&oldid=133170 * Xff * (+89)
19:37:21 <ais523> does Smalltalk have a comment syntax?
19:37:45 <ais523> most examples I've seen have no comments – and one example I just looked at is setting properties on objects that are never read, to have somewhere to put comments
19:39:05 <int-e> https://riptutorial.com/smalltalk/example/19305/literals-and-comments "Comments are enclosed in double quotes. BEWARE: This is NOT a string!"
19:41:44 <b_jonas> I guess they're kind of related so that makes sense
19:44:08 <cpressey> ( This is a comment in Forth. )
19:44:58 <cpressey> (and yes, you do need the spaces)
19:45:20 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133172&oldid=133171 * Xff * (+338)
19:45:53 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133173&oldid=133172 * Xff * (+0)
19:45:58 <ais523> parentheses for comments makes sense if your syntax is more inspired by English than maths
19:46:05 <ais523> although I guess square brackets might work even better
19:46:15 <ais523> needing the spaces intuitively makes sense to me, at least
19:46:22 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133174&oldid=133173 * Xff * (+4) /* examples */
19:46:57 <cpressey> Forth has a pretty primitive concept of "word" and if you want to start a word with a parenthesis Forth is totally fine with that
19:47:22 <int-e> I never understood Forth... it just felt arcane and annoyingly low level and that's basically where I lost interest since it was supposedly high level.
19:48:26 <int-e> I also think that it's fair to say that it never really caught on.
19:48:37 <b_jonas> Forth is supposed to be high level?
19:50:43 <int-e> it's possible that this claim was just one article from an enthusiast in some computer magazine
19:51:23 <cpressey> Compared to assembly language, which is what Chuck Moore was trying to do better than, Forth is high level.
19:51:58 <b_jonas> there's some amount of churn where the high-level language of today is the low-level language of one or two decades from now, but I don't understand why Forth would have counted as high-level even back then. Smalltalk is high-level, that I can understand.
19:52:34 <cpressey> There's some kind of quote about how he "wanted to write more than 5 programs in his life", or something, but it's possibly aprocyphal.
19:52:56 <int-e> cpressey: oh you returned, you may find https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-16.html#lee ff. interesting. maybe.
19:53:38 <cpressey> Sorry https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-programming-language/ says "My original goal was to write more than 40 programs in my life." But anyway.
19:57:29 <cpressey> int-e: yes, it's interesting, thanks. PSPACE is always interesting to me.
20:00:59 <cpressey> RPN is great but I agree that Forth-per-se-Forth has some weird snags in it that I have never cottoned to. They always drag things down to the implementation level. Threaded code, the dictionary, ...
20:08:03 <b_jonas> sure, but "40 programs in my life" made more sense in the 1970s, when people didn't have a computer or even terminal at home, but just had occasional access to it at the university, and wrote their programs on paper and possibly a card punching typewriter
20:08:55 <b_jonas> (typing your own program on a card punching typewriter would make it 1970s; in the 1960s typing from the gridded paper on the keyboard was a low-payed female secretary's job, not the programmer's)
20:12:20 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:14:53 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
20:16:34 <cpressey> To be fair, I've never cottoned to Smalltalk either. For some reason it fails to have any appeal to me.
20:19:07 <b_jonas> I understand that, I'm just saying that while they are similar in some other ways, Smalltalk is high-level in a way that Forth isn't, eg. heap-allocated instances of classes
20:24:41 -!- A_Dragon has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in).
20:24:56 -!- A_Dragon has joined.
20:25:22 <cpressey> I don't see Forth and Smalltalk as very similar at all, fwiw. My distates for both of them seem largely unrelated.
20:25:23 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:27:21 -!- tromp has joined.
20:27:43 <cpressey> Not a word I usually find myself pluralizing
20:28:33 <cpressey> Once, I had access to a university library, and I remember borrowing a Forth book and a book on the Mouse programming language, for weekend reading.
20:31:02 <b_jonas> I borrowed a Java book from my university library once, very long ago. It was only available in French, but since it was all programming reference documentation there was not much perceptible difference from it being in English.
20:31:27 -!- SGautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:43:25 <fizzie> Arguably Forth gets less inconvenient to use if you use one of the locals syntaxes -- for example, mirroring the way you usually put in a stack effect comment in `: foo ( a b -- x ) ... ;`, in Gforth (I think it's an ANS Forth feature?) you can do `: foo { a b -- x } ... ;` and then while the `-- x` bit remains a comment, the first bit will actually pop a and b off the stack and allow you to
20:43:27 <fizzie> refer to them by name.
20:43:29 <fizzie> But I've been informed that's "doing it wrong", and instead you're supposed to just write so short word definitions that there's no inconvenience to just using the data stack without such modern embellishments.
20:43:42 <fizzie> But it never seems to work out that way in practice.
20:45:19 <fizzie> I do think it's a little charming how Open Firmware / OpenBoot is a Forth environment.
20:46:35 <b_jonas> I've got more terms for these sequences. I wonder where I should put them on the internet.
20:49:54 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:50:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I like GML's method. you can use real named local variables, they aren't on the data stack, but the compiler could put them onto the C stack together with return addresses.
20:51:46 <b_jonas> I don't necessarily like how GML handles arrays, mind you, just how it handles the data stack, local variables, and true closure lambdas
20:52:28 <b_jonas> it's a nice mixture between a stack-based language (like postscript) and a lambda-based language (like Haskell)
20:53:54 <esolangs> [[The Code of the Seven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133175&oldid=107278 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+842) Introduced an examples section which embraces as its two incipial members a repeating cat program and a Hello, World! printer.
20:56:04 <esolangs> [[The Code of the Seven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133176&oldid=133175 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+245) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the The Code of the Seven programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
21:15:35 <ais523> I dislike the way that Smalltalk programs don't have a traditional notion of source code – in particular, the program and the data it's operating on tend to get mixed together
21:16:02 <ais523> also I dislike the way the names work for methods that take 2+ arguments – I don't mind the named arguments but I dislike the way the method name and first argument name get mixed together
21:17:20 <ais523> as for Forth, I never really understood it well enough to develop a dislike of it
21:18:04 <b_jonas> I guess I can just put the numbers onto the esowiki for now, they're not creative expression anyway so they're not protectable by copyright
21:18:17 <b_jonas> even though this is technically off-topic because it's not esoteric enough
21:18:45 <b_jonas> but maybe if I later compute a weird enough variant they do become esoteric
21:18:52 <ais523> you could design an esolang where it matters (fundamentally enough that it isn't just "I have a builtin that prints this long text so I'll post the text on the wiki" – that's one of my more common copyright-related deletions)
21:19:41 <b_jonas> sure, but I'm deliberately trying to compute natural sequences here, natural enough that I expect many of them will be on the OEIS
21:20:09 <ais523> who knows, maybe they'll end up TC :-D
21:20:32 <ais523> I have been thinking about Antihydra and friends a bit recently – they can be seen as defining a programming language, and it is not completely obvious that the language is sub-TC
21:20:47 <ais523> (although it probably is)
21:21:40 <b_jonas> I can imagine PSPACE-complete or some such smaller class more easily than Turing-complete
21:22:09 <ais523> it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as the Conedy computational class, although they seem pretty related
21:23:50 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
21:25:44 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:36:56 -!- cpressey has joined.
21:38:22 -!- salpynx has joined.
21:39:44 <cpressey> It is of course possible to imagine some combination of Forth and Smalltalk where (oh I don't know) words are sent messages consisting of the stack, and they return a new stack, and etc. Working this out is left as an exercise for the reader.
21:41:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
21:46:47 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.0).
21:49:50 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133177&oldid=133144 * TheCanon2 * (+28) Disambiguated.
21:53:46 <salpynx> int-e: Thanks for the PMMN article update re. 2 reg PMMN. For Halt, are you saying the program can halt with one of a finite range of (non zero) values in one register?
21:55:24 <int-e> You can insert a bunch of if (dec(0)) { inc(1); } at the end of the main loop to accomplish that, and adjust the operations to add an extra constant correspondingly.
21:55:44 <salpynx> TC on decision problems only is interesting. ... that seems like what I was trying to say but I hadn't clarified it my own head.
22:00:55 <int-e> Turing-completeness is usually defined for decision problems. But computing functions is useful and something Minsky machines can do but this simulation can't, so I thought it should be mentioned.
22:01:13 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133178 * B jonas * (+4846) Created page with "This page records the result of enumerating polyminoes (polyminos) and various similar animals, modulo different symmetries. The first types of animals live on the square grid. A polymino is a set of points on the square grid that is connected throug
22:02:06 <int-e> b_jonas: it's usually spelled poly*o*mino.
22:02:28 <b_jonas> oh... that makes no sense, but I'll include that spelling then
22:02:56 <salpynx> I wanted to tackle this because I thought there were too many 'because 2 reg MM is TC' statements that overlooked the range of 2 reg MMs and how the construction was quite particular.
22:04:10 <salpynx> I'm glad it is mentioned now on the article.
22:04:32 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
22:04:39 <int-e> b_jonas: I've never really questioned the grammar of that... it is a weird term. But it's standard :/
22:05:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:28 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
22:08:11 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133179&oldid=133178 * B jonas * (+82)
22:09:25 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133180&oldid=133179 * B jonas * (+15)
22:10:14 <salpynx> I think I need to fix the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_Swap article, I had a 'proof' that corrected a mistake in the spec. I think the spec needs to be corrected to match, since it it's meant to be a proper MM, given the title.
22:11:01 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133181&oldid=127208 * TheCanon2 * (+396) Added interpreters in two languages.
22:13:25 <b_jonas> int-e: if we wanted to know the canonical spelling, we'd probably have to check either Martin Gardner's writings or the Blue book (Nomenclature of Organic Chemistry, IUPAC Recommendations and Preferred Names, by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry Division VIII Chemical Nomenclature and Structure Representation Division)
22:14:16 <b_jonas> Gardner presumably writes about polyminos, while the IUPAC gives rules about when to drop vowels from their various numeric prefixes
22:17:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:20:58 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133182&oldid=133181 * TheCanon2 * (+100) Added a note
22:25:29 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:33:33 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/markovfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133183 * Tommyaweosme * (+636) Created page with "markov chain when trained on brainfuck article: CONFUSED WITH 8BITS NEWLINES THE COMMON IMPLEMENTATIONS OF CORE WAR BRAINFUCK TINYBF AND SO STANDARD SCORING WOULD GIVE IT TO SEPARATE CODE R S BRAINFUCKPC RELAY COMPUTER THE GOAL OF CELL BASED OP
22:37:24 <b_jonas> oh... I guess enumerating the multi versions isn't too interesting because you can get the sequence of counts from the orignal sequence with some linear transformation
22:38:07 <b_jonas> and some of the other variants that was thinking of with labels on the point are like that too
22:39:20 <b_jonas> but I should probably compute the numbers for 3-d polyminos that fit in a distinguished two block thick plane
22:40:35 <b_jonas> probably just polyhexes and polyamonds first though
22:49:43 <b_jonas> here are the small polykings by the way: https://dpaste.com/7FXTBD6JD.txt
22:52:40 <b_jonas> and here are all the small polyminos: https://dpaste.com/5GBXKHMNJ.txt
22:56:12 <b_jonas> btw, Erich Friedman spells it "polyomino", that's at least kind of authoritive
23:05:18 <b_jonas> oh, and I should count the animials made of *edges* of the square grid. don't know off hand what fancy name those have.
23:38:10 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:38:23 -!- Noisytoot_ has joined.
23:38:24 -!- Noisytoot_ has changed nick to Noisytoot.
23:42:25 -!- Noisytoot has changed nick to Guest911.
23:42:25 -!- Guest911 has quit (Killed (calcium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))).
23:42:28 -!- Noisytoot has joined.