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00:16:08 <esolangs> [[2dL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133184&oldid=133174 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) Categories
00:17:37 <esolangs> [[2dL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133185&oldid=133184 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* examples */ Category
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02:36:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133186&oldid=133122 * PrySigneToFry * (+200)
02:37:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133187&oldid=133186 * PrySigneToFry * (+88)
02:56:03 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133188&oldid=133133 * Joe * (+29)
02:56:44 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133189&oldid=133188 * Joe * (+1) inifnite loop example
02:56:55 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133190&oldid=133189 * Joe * (+0) fixed page
02:57:09 <esolangs> [[User:Joe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133191&oldid=127917 * Joe * (+13)
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04:32:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Alphabet letters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133192&oldid=100854 * TheCanon2 * (+148) /* The links are dead. */ new section
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05:30:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133193&oldid=133062 * PrySigneToFry * (+346)
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05:30:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133194&oldid=133193 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
05:35:50 <b_jonas> I should also try polyaboloes, which are made of tans (equilateral right triangles) that are half of a grid square on the square grid, such that you can only halve each grid square one way, but if you have both halves of a grid square then you can't distinguish which way it's halved, and for connectivity two tans are neighbors if they share an edge. these at least have the same possible symmetries as
05:35:56 <b_jonas> polyominoes and polykings, but are complicated and kind of esoteric in other ways, so I can develop the enumeration and a visualization routine without having to pay attention to the symmetry groups part.
05:54:13 <zzo38> I noticed list of games on b_jonas's user page; I also like Hero Hearts (and wrote my own implementation of So Broken in the Free Hero Mesh programming language), and I and some other people like to play Pokemon which is different from the Pokemon card game. Also, "Netrunner is Turing-complete" is linked from somewhere, specifically, that Todo list (I don't know where else to put it though).
05:55:02 <zzo38> And, although ICFP 2014 GCC and GHC there are articles, they do not include any documentations, examples, etc; maybe it is worth to be added some
05:57:20 <zzo38> (I think my "XGCC" article describes a superset, so you could copy parts of that article and change some of it to ignore the irrelevant parts (e.g. the way the stops are working))
05:59:07 <zzo38> Also, I don't know if a category should be added for IOCCC. And, the link for the OpenTTD is not working correctly; it says error
06:00:18 <zzo38> "Possibly some other computers in http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html" also is not working (if you have another copy of that or remember what was written, then I will hope that you can write that)
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06:44:46 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133195&oldid=133180 * B jonas * (+2)
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07:32:44 <esolangs> [[H+Q9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133196&oldid=118848 * PrySigneToFry * (+52)
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07:59:09 <wib_jonas> zzo38: http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html is or was a list of homepages about esoteric computer hardware, including at least http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ (on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic-1 ), see notes on the bottom of http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
08:00:23 <wib_jonas> games on b_jonas's user page => I try to put mostly games where I have evidence that at least two channel regulars are playing the same game, because those are the ones where we have the most useful discussions
08:01:10 <wib_jonas> "Netrunner is Turing-complete" is linked from somewhere => yes, that TODO item was because I'd like it linked from the main namespace so that https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=netrunner doesn't come up empty
08:02:45 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133197&oldid=133167 * B jonas * (-6) /* Todo */ fix link to OpenTTD
08:03:58 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133198&oldid=133197 * B jonas * (-226) /* Todo */
08:06:35 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133199&oldid=133198 * B jonas * (+83)
08:07:30 <esolangs> [[Trilime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133200&oldid=119405 * B jonas * (-9) Marking as not a stub because there isn't much more you can write about this topic.
08:09:37 <esolangs> [[XRay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133201 * PrySigneToFry * (+1533) Created page with "{{WIP}} XRay is designed by PSTF. It is for expanding HQ9+. == Requirements == # No uncomputable command. # No joke command. # No command longer than 100 character. # If your program includes the arguments, then they must marked with bold or italic. == Command Tabl
08:11:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133202&oldid=132937 * PrySigneToFry * (+11)
08:12:58 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133203&oldid=133185 * Gggfr * (+15)
08:15:36 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133204&oldid=133199 * B jonas * (+207) /* Todo */ CPUs by BMOW
08:19:35 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133205&oldid=133204 * B jonas * (+122) /* Todo */ Mark 1 FORTH
08:20:37 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133206&oldid=133203 * Gggfr * (-2)
08:22:25 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133207&oldid=133205 * B jonas * (+56) /* Todo */ D16/M
08:36:35 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133208&oldid=132834 * PrySigneToFry * (+102)
08:38:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:SyntaxError: invalid syntax]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133209 * PrySigneToFry * (+67) /* An abbreviation for this Esolang */ new section
08:40:23 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133210&oldid=133206 * Gggfr * (+203)
08:43:28 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133211&oldid=132027 * Gggfr * (+109) /* Implementations */
08:43:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:No.pe.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133212 * PrySigneToFry * (+296) /* I have a Cheating Quine. */ new section
08:44:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:No.pe.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133213&oldid=133212 * PrySigneToFry * (+91)
08:45:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133214&oldid=132176 * Gggfr * (+11) /* examples */
08:45:06 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133215&oldid=133086 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
08:46:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133216&oldid=133214 * Gggfr * (+61) /* normal commands */
08:47:36 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133217&oldid=133216 * Gggfr * (-17)
08:57:42 <esolangs> [[Division]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133218&oldid=113413 * PrySigneToFry * (+429)
08:58:12 <esolangs> [[Division]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133219&oldid=133218 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
09:06:18 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133220&oldid=131667 * Gggfr * (+2) /* Programs */
09:10:03 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133221&oldid=133220 * Gggfr * (+75)
09:16:52 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133222&oldid=133217 * Gggfr * (+25)
09:21:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133223 * Gggfr * (+126) Created page with "Is is turing complete. Like you can simulate bf in it! Like this(3 cell): * start program with rR * > is > * and < is < * , is"
09:21:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133224&oldid=133223 * Gggfr * (+5)
09:23:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133225&oldid=133224 * Gggfr * (+11)
09:27:32 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133226&oldid=133222 * Gggfr * (+71) /* register commands */
09:43:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133227&oldid=133226 * Gggfr * (-70)
09:47:45 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133228&oldid=133227 * Gggfr * (-2)
09:50:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133229&oldid=133225 * Gggfr * (+70)
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10:57:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanzifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133230&oldid=125824 * PrySigneToFry * (+328)
10:58:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanzifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133231&oldid=133230 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
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11:12:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:Cat 01.png]]"
11:15:07 <esolangs> [[Chordfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133233 * PrySigneToFry * (+842) Created page with "Chordfuck is based on music and brainfuck. == Command Table == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table |- ! Chordfuck !! Brainfuck |- | Major || <nowiki>></nowiki> |- | Minor || <nowiki><</nowiki> |- | Augmented || <nowiki>+</nowiki> |- | Diminished || <nowiki>-</
11:15:24 <esolangs> [[Chordfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133234&oldid=133233 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
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12:35:29 <wib_jonas> ``` objdump -T /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/{libc.so.6,libncurses.so.6.1,libm-2.28.so} | perl -ne 'if ("*UND*" ne substr($_,25,5)) { $s = substr($_,47)=~s/\A\h*\S+\h+(?=\S)//r; if ($s=~/\A(\S{1,3})\s/) {print "$1 ";} } END{print" ;\n"}';
12:35:30 <HackEso> div ffs tee brk err dup ftw abs nl box tan y0 y1 pow sin yn cos fma erf nan j0 j1 exp j0f j0l jnf jnl j1f jn j1l y0f y0l ynf ynl y1f y1l log ;
12:35:48 <wib_jonas> ``` objdump -T /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/{libc.so.6,libncurses.so.6.1} | perl -ne 'if ("*UND*" ne substr($_,25,5)) { $s = substr($_,47)=~s/\A\h*\S+\h+(?=\S)//r; if ($s=~/\A(\S{4})\s/) {print "$1 ";} } END{print" ;\n"}';
12:35:49 <HackEso> getc l64a gets a64l getw acct exit wait pipe verr putc _res puts fork putw gtty time step kill sbrk mmap feof ldiv swab send warn glob glob fcvt bind read dup2 dup3 poll ftok recv rand ffsl modf nice rcmd sstk atof atoi atol stty open iopl ecvt labs link errx loc1 loc2 sync bcmp nftw nftw gcvt locs free echo bkgd nonl scrl inch move beep ;
12:36:03 <wib_jonas> ``` objdump -T /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm-2.28.so | perl -ne 'if ("*UND*" ne substr($_,25,5)) { $s = substr($_,47)=~s/\A\h*\S+\h+(?=\S)//r; if ($s=~/\A(\S{4})\s/) {print "$1 ";} } END{print" ;\n"}';
12:36:05 <HackEso> fadd acos fmin cexp cabs modf fmod clog ctan fdim fdiv fmul conj sqrt cpow rint csin ceil tanf tanh carg tanl cosf cosh cosl ccos powf powf powl drem cbrt exp2 expf expf expl atan nanf fmaf nanl fmal fmax sinf fsub sinh sinl log2 logb logf logf logl asin erfc fabs erff erfl ;
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12:37:29 <wib_jonas> short symbol names. very long ago I tried to define one of the very short ones (probably j0 or y0) as a global in a C program and the program failed to work. that's when I found out about these.
12:37:50 <wib_jonas> of course this doesn't help if you collide with macros or language keywords.
12:45:05 <fizzie> I think I've been bitten by j0/j1 before. They're relatively obscure.
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13:02:29 <wib_jonas> As for libncurses, besides its short symbols (nl box echo bkgd nonl scrl inch move beep), I'd like to shout out erase and clear. Libc of course has remove, which is a C standard function. All three (erase remove clear) have additional completely different meanings in the C++ standard library, but there it appears only in mangled C++ symbols.
13:02:29 <wib_jonas> However, "clean" somehow seems to be not yet squatted, at least by these libraries.
13:05:20 <wib_jonas> oh wow, "Clean" is somehow not yet used in M:tG too. why is that not in the list on https://scryfall.com/card/unh/10/erase-(not-the-urzas-legacy-one) then?
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13:07:59 <wib_jonas> so (clean delete flush purge) are *ahem* free
13:10:03 <wib_jonas> In M:tG, Delete got recently used up, while Clean and Free are still free.
13:15:32 <HackEso> CLEAR(1) - clear the terminal screen \ clear(1) - clear the terminal screen \ clear(3x) - clear all or part of a curses window \ clear(8jevalbot) - delete a persistent session \ clean(8jevalbot) - change to the default persistent session and delete it
13:15:40 <HackEso> free(1) - Display amount of free and used memory in the system \ free(3) - allocate and free dynamic memory \ free(3p) - free allocated memory \ free(8lambdabot) - no description \ free(3glibc) - Freeing after Malloc
13:15:51 <HackEso> erase(3x) - clear all or part of a curses window \ remove(3) - remove a file or directory \ remove(3p) - remove a file \ remove(3glibc) - Deleting Files \ delete: nothing appropriate.
13:16:01 <wib_jonas> ``` whatis flush purge wipe scrub rub ablate abrade chafe fray frazzle scuff
13:16:03 <HackEso> flush: nothing appropriate. \ purge: nothing appropriate. \ wipe: nothing appropriate. \ scrub: nothing appropriate. \ rub: nothing appropriate. \ ablate: nothing appropriate. \ abrade: nothing appropriate. \ chafe: nothing appropriate. \ fray: nothing appropriate. \ frazzle: nothing appropriate. \ scuff: nothing appropriate.
13:20:54 <wib_jonas> hmm, I should add cmd builtins and DOS commands to the whatisdb
13:22:32 <wib_jonas> (because erase is both of those, to be clear)
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13:42:37 <wib_jonas> ``` </hackenv/tmp/cmd.whatis tr -d \\r | grep cmd | cat -v >> /hackenv/share/whatis
13:42:47 <HackEso> erase(3x) - clear all or part of a curses window \ ERASE(1cmd) - Deletes one or more files.
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13:49:05 <esolangs> [[HackEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133235&oldid=95414 * B jonas * (+433) /* The wisdom and quote databases */
13:52:44 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133236&oldid=133143 * TheCanon2 * (+18)
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13:57:10 <wib_jonas> oh right, I could have just piped that into addwhatis instead of appending to the file. though I still needed the grep, for some reason addwhatis warns about empty lines.
14:04:55 <esolangs> [[$!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133237 * TheCanon2 * (+371) Added $!
14:07:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133238&oldid=133187 * Tommyaweosme * (+109)
14:25:21 <Sgeo> Would it make any sense to put the core BytePusher processing inside an audio worklet?
14:36:38 <riv> I have something incredibly cursed to share with you
15:10:05 <ais523> wib_jonas: huh, "delete" wasn't even in the flavor text of "Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One)" in the first place
15:10:09 <ais523> was checking to see if it had been crossed off
15:10:15 <ais523> maybe it wasn't funny enough
15:11:38 <ais523> I guess it doesn't make sense as a synonym for "remove artwork", even though it is a synonym for "erase"
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15:19:35 <fowl> https://arxiv.org/pdf/2406.19108 is there a better esolang to use for this than brainfuck?
15:20:47 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, it seems they mostly listed obscure synonyms there
15:21:41 <int-e> . o O ( https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.19108 )
15:26:49 <ais523> fowl: a) almost certainly yes, but b) I can't think of a specific example offhand
15:27:08 <ais523> I think this sort of experiment would work best with languages where slightly modifying a program gave you slightly modified behaviour
15:27:11 <ais523> but most languages don't work like that
15:27:13 <wib_jonas> or maybe that flavor text counts "used" in a more general sense, eg. "cleanse" is not listed because there's a "Cleansing", "wipe" and "clean" is not listed because there's a "Wipe Clean". though that doesn't explain why "delete" is missing. maybe they wanted to leave some ambiguity so the flavor text reads better in the future and/or doesn't spoil
15:27:51 <ais523> well, Unhinged was quite a while ago by this point – it's back when I was actually playing, which is not at all recent
15:27:55 <ais523> (I stopped playing during Lorwyn)
15:28:54 <ais523> I am a bit surprised that the word "Brainfuck" [sic] was used in an apparently serious mathematical paper without censoring it
15:29:17 <ais523> although, wow, every use is at the start of a sentence or in a title
15:29:21 <ais523> so maybe it isn't misspelled after all
15:30:01 <wib_jonas> ais523: mathematics papers already use terms that you can't take on an airplane, "Brainfuck" is mild compared to those
15:38:57 <wib_jonas> as for ohter M:tG card names, there are cards named Annihilate, Reap, Assassinate, Murder, Slay, "Kill! Destroy!", Killer, Death. The first two are old, the last two are split cards. The split cards are a bit of a pity, Death would be a nice name for an Incarnation creature. There is no card yet called just "Kill" or "Destroy" or "Die".
15:39:48 <wib_jonas> There is no "Pass away" or "Decease" either.
15:41:04 <esolangs> [[$!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133239&oldid=133237 * TheCanon2 * (+700) Finished the article.
15:46:32 <esolangs> [[$!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133240&oldid=133239 * TheCanon2 * (-4) Fixed an arguably stupid mistake I made.
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16:18:05 <korvo> ais523: How's the Hydra research going? Are you still on it?
16:19:08 <korvo> I wasn't sure whether you saw my note the other day. I proved that Hydra's sequence is highly patterned *and* that the pattern is evenly distributed (mod 2**k), not just (mod 2).
16:23:11 <korvo> https://imgur.com/a/hydra-diagram-Mw5UbX2 shows the basic idea for the (mod 4) case. Each of the (mod 2) transitions comes apart into two (mod 4) transitions.
16:24:19 <korvo> The extreme symmetry continues all the way up (verified (mod 8) by hand) because 3 is always coprime to 2**k. This is sufficient to fully explain Hydra's behavior IMO; it probviously tends towards these diagrams after some initial segment.
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16:29:06 <korvo> Also note that indeed "maths is not ready for such problems" as Erdös said. The issue here is that the induction is permanently fenceposted; in order to justify the (mod 2) case, we need to already have the (mod 4) case partially done, and so on. The induction is just not there.
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16:45:01 <ais523> <korvo> ais523: How's the Hydra research going? Are you still on it? ← I've been thinking about it a bit but haven't really started
16:45:55 <esolangs> [[XRay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133241&oldid=133201 * Unname4798 * (+91)
16:45:56 <ais523> I was mostly thinking about implementing it efficiently – the Collatz function in question can be pretty efficiently implemented by a cellular automaton that stores the numbers in octal (allowing 8, 9, and 10 as digits in addition to the usual ones), which means that hashlife-style implementations may be able to speed itu p
16:50:56 <korvo> Oh, that's an interesting approach. The idea is to turn powers of two into powers of three?
16:52:49 <ais523> doing a multiplication by 3 in octal is fairly simple, you just do long multiplication, but to save having to propagate the carry you just add the carry from the digit below to the least significant digit of the result
16:53:42 <ais523> e.g. 15A (octal) × 3 = 0300 + 150 + 36 = 0486
16:54:16 <ais523> e.g. 15A (octal) × 3 = 0300 + 170 + 36 = 04A6
16:54:37 <ais523> sorry, did the eights digit in decimal by mistake
16:55:17 <ais523> this makes it possible to use local reasoning to do the multiplications, and the odd/even collatz stuff is also easy to implement in a cellular automaton
16:56:32 <ais523> (and of course, dividing by 2 in octal is trivial)
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17:01:13 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133242&oldid=133156 * Gggfr * (-723) /* Idea 4(done) */
17:09:52 <korvo> Nice. This starts to really connect the dots WRT Erdös' conjecture that 2**k can't be written as a sum of powers of three for k>8. That one also can be phrased with a base change, using trinary.
17:19:49 <ais523> my plan was to not do the divisions by 2 in the automaton itself and instead just have the LSB gradually move to the left – if you do implement the divisions you probably have to add B/11 as a digit in addition to the other ten
17:20:36 <ais523> but, implementing the division is probably more efficient as it means that many fewer colors are needed to handle the least-significant digit
17:20:50 <ais523> so I think this conversation has changed the plan :-)
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17:38:44 <korvo> Counterintuitive but understandable. Good luck.
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17:42:51 <b_jonas> hmm... I could try to make an eso-captcha system from the polyforms enumeration later: I'd show an image of one of these classes of polyforms with their positions and orientations randomized, and you have to point at the one duplicate pair or enter the missing one into a grid
17:46:09 <ais523> "enter the missing one" would be hard for humans – finding duplicates is a bit easier
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17:46:54 <ais523> (and would also give a better UI)
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17:56:15 <b_jonas> not only is it "polyomino" with an extra vowel, it's also "polyiamond" rather than "polyamond".
17:56:52 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133243&oldid=133195 * B jonas * (+1) spelling is "polyiamonds"
17:59:12 <ais523> I think, when English adds a prefix ending in a vowel to a word starting with a vowel, it's more common to drop the vowel from the prefix than the vowel from the stem
18:00:04 <ais523> "monomial" is a weird case (compared to "polynomial" there are two letters overlapping between the prefix and stem), although in that one the letters are the same so you can't tell which were kept
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18:33:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133244&oldid=133202 * TheCanon2 * (+12) /* N */ Added Nulla
18:35:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133245&oldid=133244 * TheCanon2 * (+10) /* H */ Added H
18:35:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133246&oldid=133245 * TheCanon2 * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added $!
18:38:28 <b_jonas> hmm, so is there a table or rulebook somewhere that gives all these words (polyform, polyomino, polyabolo, polyiamond, polyhex) and their versions when prefixed with specific small numbers eg. tetromino, hexiamond, plus the plurals for all of these?
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19:56:57 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133247&oldid=133207 * B jonas * (-43) /* Todo */
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20:28:42 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133248&oldid=133211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementations */ Sort
20:32:45 <esolangs> [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133249&oldid=101153 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Interpretter */ Dead links
20:56:53 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133250&oldid=133221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories
20:57:13 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133251&oldid=133250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
20:59:16 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133252&oldid=133034 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-70) Fix links, add categories
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21:02:42 <esolangs> [[GEMROOTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133253&oldid=35196 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) Categories
21:03:21 <esolangs> [[Gemooy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133254&oldid=122673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ Category
21:05:38 <esolangs> [[Zame]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133255&oldid=36681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Categories
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21:09:06 <esolangs> [[Gen Alpha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133256&oldid=127985 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) Distinguish confusion, add category
21:09:24 <esolangs> [[Gen Alpha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133257&oldid=133256 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
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21:09:56 <esolangs> [[Gen Alpha Brainrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133258&oldid=125372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) Distinguish confusion
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21:24:12 <b_jonas> my home computer crashed again, and this reminds me of a question.
21:29:23 <b_jonas> so you know how in the 90s, computer hardware was simpler, so there usually wasn't any way to detect and configure hardware automatically. as a user, you had to explicitly pick the right drivers, and give each of them a few pieces of configuration settings. the type, port numbers, and IRQ numbers for PCI cards; allowed ranges of vsync and hsync rates plus length of the sync signal and the padding before
21:29:29 <b_jonas> and after sync signal for monitors, available clocks for a video card, the number of physical heads and cylinders and sectors for a hard disk, baud rate and number of value bits and parity bits and start bits and stop bits for a serial connection, etc.
21:30:17 <b_jonas> but then later more complex semiconductors got cheap enough that today I don't need to configure anything, just plug stuff together, the software automatically detects everything.
21:32:36 <b_jonas> and you know how in those simpler 1990 hardware, the earliest CD writers had the annoying property that if the software was too slow to refill its small write buffer while burning, then when the buffer emptied the burner would just keep burning unwanted data and ruined the disk. but then when the more complex chips got cheap, CD writers fixed this so if the buffer runs out they just stop burning and you
21:32:42 <b_jonas> can eventually continue, at most you waste a few sectors and seconds.
21:33:14 <b_jonas> so my question is, when a modern computer hangs, why does the sound card keep playing the same one-second sample forever on repeat rather than failing to silence?
21:34:18 <b_jonas> I can understand why the video card keeps showing the same image, since that can sometimes contain useful log entries or other clues for the reason why the computer hung, but the repeated sound is just so annoying.
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21:47:58 <korvo> I want to say that it's because of latency-first engineering principles in sound hardware, but I think that that's not a real answer.
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21:48:57 <korvo> Like, I think a real answer would include that decade or so where Sound Blaster® hardware was well-known for literally destroying the host board if programmed wrong.
21:50:17 <korvo> Because your example, CD writers, if they don't automatically stop burning then something will be damaged. And their manufacturers recognize that those little laser-jewel assemblies are expensive and easy to damage.
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21:58:10 <esolangs> [[$!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133259&oldid=133240 * TheCanon2 * (+263) Added a Hello, World! program
22:00:32 <zzo38> I don't know why. Some kind of sounds, according to the way they are programmed (e.g. with hardware ADSR, or with a programmable timer to tell it to expire) should be able to stop autmoatically. I don't know why the other kind doesn't stop automatically; I would think it should be designed to stop once the sound is finish playing.
22:06:14 <fizzie> I assume the "repeat a buffer if it underruns" is a thing in the first place because it's less jarring than silence would be if it's just one "missed frame" here and there; and then just letting that do its thing is the lazy choice, because do you really need to optimize for the case of a crashed computer? It might be annoying, but it's not going to ruin a CD.
22:06:24 <int-e> I think it's easier and less timing critical to have a buffer that's played continuously (looping) and, say, trigger an interrupt at the end and at the half-way point so that the software can refill it. If you stop playing the software would have to restart it and getting the timing correct is tricky.
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22:09:20 <fizzie> "Repeat the last frame" is I think also what simple VoIPy things do to mask lost packets. (Complex VoIPy things may in fact interpolate and extrapolate.)
22:10:38 <int-e> Anyway, I don't know.
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22:12:25 <fizzie> I only listen to my computer these days using an USB DAC, and I kinda suspect if the computer crashed terminally it'd just go silent, because it relies on USB continuing to do its complicated dance.
22:15:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't the complicated USB dance also done by a controller that runs independently, so that it can, you know, DRM transfer in the background, since USB is often used to transfer data very fast for extended periods these days
22:16:45 <b_jonas> unrelated: some of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_kinship sounds like esolangers invented parts of it
22:17:22 <fizzie> Maybe, but I guess _eventually_ those buffers would run dry rather than repeating forever. (Just a guess.)
22:20:44 <zzo38> I saw the mention of Australian Aboriginal kinship in a book once
22:20:50 <int-e> Hmm https://www.edn.com/fundamentals-of-usb-audio/ is interesting. So first of all, the device obviously has to speak USB, receiving and sending frames of data. But the article suggests that the required buffer is actually rather small... and you don't want a 8kHz beep just because the computer stopped sending data.
22:21:51 <korvo> Fundamental USB issue. The desired property is called "isochrony" and USB just doesn't have it. Compare to FireWire, which is both isochronous and has innate DMA security issues.
22:21:53 <int-e> (dealing with USB is a huge complication)
22:23:14 <korvo> You need isochrony to shove a pile of pixels or audio samples (auxels?) over a digital link with low latency anyway, because you need to put next frame's pixels on the wire before last frame is ack'd.
22:24:00 <korvo> ...I wanted to write "before last frame is cleared from the receiving buffer", and indeed that's where the DMA security problems are.
22:24:03 <int-e> Well apparently there *are* isochronous transfers in USB.
22:24:39 <int-e> I'm sure it's flawed in many ways.
22:25:06 <korvo> In USB 3 maybe? I haven't kept up. I know it was a big argument around the USB 1.2 and 2.0 era, because of the three different hardware abstractions (ECHI, UCHI, ACHI?)
22:26:01 <b_jonas> korvo: isn't the first one OHCI, while I think AHCI doesn't exist?
22:26:35 <korvo> b_jonas: I genuinely don't remember. I don't even remember who made them; I think two of the vendors were Intel and VIA.
22:28:29 <korvo> A friend's spouse was involved in the USB 3 implementation in Linux. It sounded like the worst fucking headache.
22:30:36 <int-e> korvo: hmm. https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/344639/isochronous-and-interrupt-transfers-for-usb-where-to-learn-about-it says that it's no longer used
22:31:15 <int-e> and the modern approach is to paint it over with excess bandwidth.
22:31:35 <int-e> (for USB sound devices)
22:32:11 <korvo> Yep, USB 2.0 bandwidth is fairly insane even at Full Speed, and if you divide it up, you get pretty good latency with reasonably-sized packets of samples.
22:32:49 <korvo> Of course, folks immediately went and spent Moore's Dividend (or the radio equivalent) on Bluetooth audio. Utterly ridiculous. But yeah, now USB audio is fast enough for pro work.
22:37:19 <b_jonas> sure, I even use a webcamera through USB 2 for video chatting with relatives. admittedly it's just 1280×720 pixels times 30/s; for the higher quality cameras that I worked with in my previous job you need either USB 3 or ethernet
22:40:02 <b_jonas> I figured it was better to buy two cheap webcameras rather than one high quality one for multiple times the price. 60/s frame rate bumps the price by like a 10× factor.
22:41:03 <b_jonas> the mobile phones on the other end are on fast wifi half of the time, so I could transfer higher quality video through the rest of the stack by the way
22:45:57 <fizzie> Think I've told this story before, but I had an external DVB-T box back in... 2005-ish, which was USB 1.2 rather than 2.0, and while the proprietary Windows drivers knew how to program the box to extract a single program out of the MPEG-TS multiplex, the Linux drivers could only program it into the mode where it tries to dump the entire stream, which made it unusable (at least in Finland in
22:45:58 <fizzie> Linux) because the multiplexes required more than the 12 Mbps of Full Speed bandwidth.
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22:58:26 <zzo38> If you wanted to use IEEE 1394 instead of USB, how would it be done? My computer, and the cable box for the TV, both have IEEE 1394, although they are not in the same room. Can EIA 608 and EIA 708 be used with IEEE 1394, or is the composite video capture required for this?
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