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00:41:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134735&oldid=134733 * Ais523 * (-430) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134732|134732]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]): trolling
00:43:11 <ais523> so I made something of a breakthrough wrt Hydra and Antihydra: I still have no idea how to prove they don't halt, but at least I figured out how to simulate them efficiently
00:43:13 <ais523> the details are at https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Consistent_Collatz
00:44:59 <ais523> I am not sure whether "can be simulated in quasilinear time" implies much about the computational class, though
00:48:11 <int-e> ais523: hmm on https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Hydra are the A(,) things supposed to be C(,) things?
00:48:14 <ais523> ah, it looks like the same algorithm's been discovered already
00:48:32 <ais523> int-e: no, because the notation is showing something else from what you expect
00:48:43 <ais523> it's talking about the state of the tape
00:48:53 <ais523> but I think A goes back to C quickly
00:49:57 <ais523> that said, I don't fully understand it myself
00:50:13 <ais523> so it might just be wrong after all, or perhaps expressing a useless distinction
00:53:55 <int-e> Oh the notation is from [1].
00:54:52 <int-e> So yeah, I think those A() should be C().
01:24:15 <ais523> <fizzie> I'd look for an extension that does something like domain name salespersons do when they prevent you from creating misleading domain names using homoglyph trickery ← I think AbuseFilter (which we already have installed) can probably do that, but I've never needed to use the relevant part of the functionality so I'm not sure how it works, and esowiki seems a likely place for false positives
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02:03:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:UTC+8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134736&oldid=133537 * PrySigneToFry * (+547) /* New Example */ new section
02:04:19 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134737 * Tommyaweosme * (+374) Created page with "ME WANTING TO BLOCK AIS523 FROM MY PAGES IS NOT "TROLLING" ~~~ WAS BLOCKED FOR NO REASON FROM THE SANDBOX unname4798 WAS BLOCKED FOR NO REASON FROM THE SANDBOX MAYBE WE WILL MOVE TO LIFEWIKI??? YOUR FUNNI SITE WILL GET LESS GOOGLE R
02:04:58 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134738&oldid=134627 * Tommyaweosme * (-495)
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02:07:55 <ais523> err, should I just delete that rant-filled user subpage?
02:08:23 <ais523> my first reaction was to – the user in question is likely to regret having posted it in a few months or years – but I am not sure what to put in the deletion message
02:24:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Genesis]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was moved to the correct namespace
02:25:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:ANGL]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was moved to the correct namespace
02:26:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Users]]": blank page, has never had content
02:27:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Sandbox/ Trashcan]]": unused, and not useful, Sandbox subpage
02:28:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Sandbox/Sandbin]]": apparently an abandoned attempt to recreate a "preservation of test edits" sandbox, which is inappropriate for this site
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03:36:00 <Hooloovoo> I'm wondering if a lot of pages ought to be deleted. I was browsing the wiki on my phone last night and... wow, there are a lot of pages that are completely unoriginal, or ideas that never went anywhere
03:39:16 <ais523> Hooloovoo: a) I agree that lots of the pages are useless, but b) we intentionally have very low standards for esolangs to be mentioned on the site, because it was originally created as a way to save esolang-related content that was being deleted from Wikipedia (although the content couldn't actually be copied over due to license incompatibility, we rewrote it)
03:40:25 <ais523> I have wondered if we should have some sort of award for the less useful pages, but it would be hard to objectively define
03:41:07 <Hooloovoo> that makes sense. it's just hard to navigate (as a novice who's been around at least 10 years) to anything real
03:41:22 <ais523> e.g. occasionally I create an esolang in 30 seconds; one of those was useful enough to provoke someone else's thoughts, and one got used for a fairly important TCness proof, although most esolangs created that quickly are terrible
03:42:05 <ais523> part of the problem is that there are quite a lot of esolangs that aren't individually really bad, they're just too similar to each other and there isn't much benefit to them all existing
03:43:19 <ais523> for example, something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Kipple is completely unremarkable nowadays and you can find tons of languages like it and wouldn't have much of a reason to use it
03:43:27 <ais523> but then you look at the date, and realise that there was nothing like it at the time
03:44:08 <ais523> so it got quite a lot of attention simply because it had less competition – and for all I know, it may have been ground-breaking because there weren't that many similar languages back then
03:45:32 <Hooloovoo> precedence definitely makes sense, especially when it probably *was* groundbreaking at the time ( is there usenet/irc logs from that time?)
03:48:16 <Hooloovoo> for some reason I was going through category:thematic and there were a lot of pretty hypothetical languages, no implementation in sight
03:49:16 <esolangs> [[Hq9+8F]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134739 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+663) Created page with "hq9+8F is hq9+ but different: by ~~~~ <code>h</code> retains the same. <code>q</code> sets the accumulator to this code. <code>+</code> increments the accumulator by 2. <code></code> prints "1" forever <code>f</
03:49:59 <Hooloovoo> like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Chess or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Darmok
03:50:25 <Hooloovoo> (to be fair there may be some selection bias on hard-to-implement-sounding-names)
03:51:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134740&oldid=134737 * Unname4798 * (+165) Use my signature
03:51:52 <ais523> Hooloovoo: we did actually save the IRC logs from the very early history of the channel: https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/all.html
03:53:30 <ais523> I don't think Usenet ever got used that much, except for INTERCAL (which traditionally gets released over Usenet and some discussion has happened there too)
03:53:51 <ais523> there was a webforum, but it got overrun with spam quite quickly, people preferred to use the wiki instead
03:54:26 <esolangs> [[User:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134741&oldid=132072 * Unname4798 * (-8487) removed the Grasp section, since that was outdated
03:54:53 <Hooloovoo> was kind of hoping for a tar/whatever archive link at the bottom of that page
03:55:15 <Hooloovoo> I can wget -r like anyone else but it seems wasteful
03:56:01 <ais523> looks like there are links for every month
03:56:07 <ais523> but I'm not sure there are combined links for more than that
03:56:34 <ais523> recursive wget is a bad idea because you'll get every month both combined and separately, and in three different formats; probably it's better to do an URL enumeration
03:57:29 <ais523> it's worth noting that some of the early history of the channel was very immature – I am wondering if the same phenomenon is playing out on Discord nowadays
03:58:44 <Hooloovoo> also, yeah, I first was on another IRC and saw stuff from another young dude in the old quote database or whatever it was called
03:59:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134742&oldid=134740 * Unname4798 * (-39) Combine two sentences together
03:59:58 <Hooloovoo> IRC has lost the whole feeling of new people in all but a few channels (mostly bridged to discord/other services now)
04:02:07 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134743&oldid=134742 * Unname4798 * (+291) answer to tommyaweosme's question
04:02:08 <ais523> it's almost like the Eternal September is ending
04:03:18 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134744&oldid=134743 * Unname4798 * (+16)
04:03:27 <ais523> but it's unlikely that internets will ever be able to go back to the way that they were prior to that
04:04:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134745&oldid=134744 * Unname4798 * (+20)
04:04:10 <ais523> (given that modern language struggles with even expressing the idea that there might be more than one network of networks, with none of them sufficiently important to be "the" internet…)
04:05:38 <ais523> ooh, Wikipedia suggests "internetwork" as a term to use in the general case, that helps
04:08:42 <ais523> btw, to explain this whole "trolling" thing: it generally isn't considered a serious request to ask an admin to block themself, you would normally at least ask a different admin
04:09:23 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134746&oldid=134707 * Unname4798 * (+66) Examples: cat
04:09:50 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134747&oldid=134746 * Unname4798 * (-7)
04:20:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134748&oldid=134738 * Unname4798 * (-40) fix typos
04:21:28 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134749&oldid=134748 * Unname4798 * (+4)
04:22:04 <ais523> ugh, I really don't want to have to put a blanket ban on users editing each other's user pages
04:22:36 <ais523> it would help to some extent at times like this – but it would also cause a number of issues, e.g. people wouldn't be able to edit out objectionable content without asking an admin, and there are some valid uses for userpage collaboration
04:36:41 <Hooloovoo> I agree, a blanket ban would probably be harmful. probably best to just ban/revert the problematic users
04:37:15 <Hooloovoo> (if that's at all feasable, but I think mediawiki has pretty good support for that kind of thing)
04:39:49 <ais523> lots of users seem to take it personally when you try to prevent them making unconstructive edits, though
04:40:14 <ais523> it can cause less friction to have a general rule for the whole wiki (and if a whole range of users are doing the same problematic things…)
04:40:32 <ais523> but I don't think I can teach the wiki software to work out whether a user-editing-another-user's-page is good or bad
04:44:53 <Hooloovoo> as a lurker on, like several wikis.... I can't provide any meaningful feedback
04:46:22 <korvo> Hooloovoo: Still reading backlog, but have you heard of "inclusionism" and "deletionism"? Speaking purely for myself, I only edit inclusionist wikis, and it's the main reason I'm no longer active on English WP.
04:46:26 <ais523> it's OK – most of the trouble is being caused by me trying hard to not ban people
04:48:18 <ais523> korvo: nowadays, I actually suspect the divide on enwiki is more sharply between "notability is inherent, non-notable things should be deleted" and "inclusion standards are determined by sourcing, and are probably more important than notability, although notability's very correlated with sourcing"
04:48:20 <ais523> I'm in the latter camp
04:50:05 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, it's a whole Overton window. I left when they forcibly disbanded Esperanza; it's only gotten worse since then.
04:51:18 <ais523> to be fair, Esperanaza probably needed disbanding by that point; it's actually quite reminiscent of the sandbox wars, except that Esperanza had a more reasonable initial purpose
04:51:52 <ais523> but ended up turning into something of a cross between a social media organization and a really complicated organisational hierarchy that existed for no apparent reason
04:52:00 <ais523> and lost sight of why it was created in the first place
04:52:04 <korvo> Hooloovoo: One useful thing we can do is categorize. Categories like "Implemented" or "Turing-complete" or "Proofs" let us have a modicum of curation. Part of the current situation is due to Category:Proofs misuse.
04:53:30 <korvo> ais523: I guess that's a way of looking at it. From my POV, there were many low-level editing tasks that just needed us to attract the right undergrads or high-schoolers with the right amount of hyperfocus. Esperanza was a useful way to recruit them.
04:53:32 <Hooloovoo> well, and plus a bunch of stuff is trivially provable to.... something at least
04:53:32 <ais523> I do feel like Wikipedia's got more inclusionist over time (except with respect to things that people are being paid to advertise on Wikipedia, they've become less and less tolerant of that as time goes on)
04:53:55 <korvo> e.g. rewriting content from Mathworld or that one Catholic encyclopedia, in the old times.
04:54:22 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134750&oldid=134726 * Gggfr * (+35) /* examples */
04:54:26 <ais523> like, you've never been able to write unsourced articles (within the rules, at least) – and the converse is becoming more and more true over time (i.e. if the article *is* properly sourced you can write it)
04:56:09 <ais523> although there's lots of grey area, such as future solar eclipses (there are plenty of sources saying an eclipse will happen on such and such a future date, but as it hasn't happened yet, there's nothing you can usefully say about it…)
04:56:14 <Hooloovoo> wasn't the mathworld guy a major contributor on the english wikipedia? or am I thinking of someone else?
04:56:54 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134751&oldid=134750 * Gggfr * (+4) /* examples */
04:57:45 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134752&oldid=134751 * Gggfr * (+4) /* examples */
04:57:47 <korvo> I'll concede that webcomics, which IIRC were the biggest debate topic regarding notability and sourcing and admins going on mass-deletion sprees -- are much better-represented than they used to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_Hill exists now.
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04:59:08 <korvo> Hooloovoo: The licensing of their articles permits young wikis to more-or-less copy their content. That one guy (Weisstein?) just happened to write a lot of the originals.
04:59:11 <Hooloovoo> I do know that Weisstein did some sort of conway's life thing. so there's that
04:59:57 <korvo> When I worked on that project, we had a strict rephrasing policy in order to conform with WP's view of maths, which is much broader and more holistic than Mathworld's.
05:00:14 <Hooloovoo> webcomics are still pretty spotty, especially for weird ones that wouldn't get mainstream press, ever
05:03:06 <Hooloovoo> (including the second-longest runner. welp)
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05:19:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134753&oldid=134510 * Gggfr * (+475) /* Huh? */
05:34:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134754&oldid=134612 * Gggfr * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
05:38:30 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134755&oldid=134752 * Gggfr * (+118)
05:39:15 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134756&oldid=134755 * Gggfr * (+41) /* syntax */
05:46:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134757&oldid=134753 * Ais523 * (+477) /* is this a true disan count? */ it isn't
06:02:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Gggfr * uploaded "[[File:?Q? esolang logo.jpg]]"
06:02:44 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134759&oldid=134756 * Gggfr * (+61)
06:22:48 <esolangs> [[Hq9+8F]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134760&oldid=134739 * Unname4798 * (+7)
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06:59:14 <esolangs> [[;;;]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134761 * Gggfr * (+600) Created page with "''';;;''' is a made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == memory == memory is stored in a infinite tape holding 8 bit numbers. == syntax == these are the commands: {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! symbol !! command |- | <code>;</code> || if current cell is 0 go left on tape. else
07:23:08 <esolangs> [[W)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134762 * Gggfr * (+1138) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{Lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=w>}} '''w>''' is a esolang where the only way to store data is by creating pointers and changing commands. its self modifying. it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. and yes w> can have multiple IPs. the pointer starts in the upper left
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07:52:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134763&oldid=134704 * Ducbadatchem * (+167) /* Introductions */
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08:29:12 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134764&oldid=130905 * Ractangle * (+39)
08:35:02 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134765&oldid=131868 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Python3 (without the ^) */
08:41:36 <int-e> fungot: how do you feel about socks?
08:41:36 <fungot> int-e: this edit isn't going through." ( forgot who said it?))
08:42:01 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134766&oldid=134759 * Xff * (+36) /* syntax */
08:45:35 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134767&oldid=133382 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Commands */
08:47:02 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134768&oldid=134766 * Xff * (+52) /* syntax */
08:50:53 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134769&oldid=134768 * Xff * (+493) /* examples */
08:51:51 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134770&oldid=134769 * Xff * (+30) /* computational class */
08:52:06 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134771&oldid=134770 * Xff * (+13) /* computational class */
08:55:41 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134772&oldid=134771 * Xff * (+39)
08:55:53 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134773&oldid=134772 * Xff * (+1)
08:57:21 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134774&oldid=134773 * Xff * (+125) /* computational class */
08:58:17 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134775&oldid=134774 * Xff * (+15) /* computational class */
09:02:16 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134776&oldid=134775 * Xff * (-3) /* computational class */
09:17:02 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134777&oldid=134776 * Xff * (+430) /* computational class */
09:35:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134778&oldid=134721 * Ractangle * (+58) /* Class and Variables */
09:36:55 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134779&oldid=134778 * Ractangle * (-88) /* Commands */
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09:49:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134780&oldid=134779 * Ractangle * (+452) /* Classes, Variables and Functions! */
09:50:14 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134781&oldid=134780 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Hello World */
10:00:10 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134782&oldid=134781 * Ractangle * (+63) /* Examples */
10:01:23 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134783&oldid=134782 * Ractangle * (+1) /* 99 bottles of beer */
10:05:14 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134784&oldid=131581 * Ractangle * (+616) /* FunctionsFTW */
10:05:24 <b_jonas> for webcomics, though it doesn't give descriptions, there's a master list at https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?272481 that I occasionally reference to find new links to webcomnics that move to a new URL without redirect every three years
10:05:38 <b_jonas> of course some webcomics just drop off the internet, in which case it doesn't help
10:07:41 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134785&oldid=134777 * Xff * (+221) /* computational class */
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10:08:22 <b_jonas> "Wikipedia's got more inclusionist over time" => that is quite natural, both because the computer hardware improves and can more easily store and serve larger numbers of articles, and because it feels weird to include articles about obscure topics in a smaller encyclopedia when most topics more important than that aren't documented, but less weird in a large encyclopedia where most of the similarly
10:08:28 <b_jonas> obscure topics are already covered
10:08:42 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134786&oldid=134785 * Xff * (+137) /* computational class */
10:10:19 <esolangs> [[Permission denied]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134787&oldid=128661 * Xff * (+36) /* Signs */
10:11:48 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134788&oldid=133737 * Ractangle * (+117) /* Gofe */
10:12:05 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134789&oldid=134788 * Ractangle * (+2) /* =G# */
10:16:41 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134790&oldid=134003 * Ractangle * (-21) /* SPIKE */
10:17:26 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134791&oldid=133132 * Ractangle * (-12) /* Interpriter test cases */
10:18:12 <esolangs> [[File:?Q? esolang logo.jpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134792&oldid=134758 * Xff * (+4)
10:18:46 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134793&oldid=134791 * Ractangle * (-199) /* Deadfish implementation */
10:19:26 <b_jonas> lots of non-notable esolangs => perhaps I should read random articles and make a longer curated list of not completely boring pages under https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Incomplete_list_of_some_interesting_or_notable_esolangs
10:20:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134794&oldid=134757 * Xff * (+105) /* is this a true disan count? */
10:20:54 <int-e> let's add up- and downvoting to the pages; surely there's nothing that can go wrong with that
10:20:56 <b_jonas> "occasionally I create an esolang in 30 seconds" => that can happen for an intermediate language that is not useful by itself, but useful to understand another esolang, like to compile to or from that intermediate language to another esolang to understand it
10:21:11 <b_jonas> "award for the less useful pages" => sorry what?
10:22:03 * int-e is probably missing context
10:26:47 <b_jonas> a hard part of making a long curated list of non-boring pages (or appproval votes or whatever) is how to do it such that users don't get personally insulted when their new totally awesome creation doesn't make the list
10:27:39 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134795&oldid=133991 * Xff * (+23) /* X strike */
10:28:44 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134796&oldid=133127 * Ractangle * (+259)
10:28:53 <b_jonas> plus it can't just be everyone giving approval votes, because then it turns to a eurovision context where whoever can get the largest number of their school friends to register on the wiki has the highest number of upvotes
10:29:25 <b_jonas> so I should probably just make a list of pages that I approve, and also look at lists by some other users that I know
10:29:50 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134797&oldid=134796 * Ractangle * (-170) /* Commands */
10:30:08 <b_jonas> I should start by going through the pages that I have edited
10:30:10 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134798&oldid=134797 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Commands */
10:30:17 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134799&oldid=134786 * Xff * (+161)
10:30:26 <b_jonas> that would make it very obvious that it's my personal selection, since I created a lot of those
10:31:05 <int-e> it's your user page; people *should* understand
10:31:47 <esolangs> [[Constant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134800&oldid=131741 * Ractangle * (-22)
10:37:13 <b_jonas> it'd be a subpage, but sure
10:38:13 <b_jonas> but if it grows large enough that it's actually useful to readers other than me then people will be insulted when I omit a page that I have seen
10:38:34 <esolangs> [[Bracket unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134801&oldid=134727 * Xff * (+1)
10:42:47 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134802&oldid=134728 * 5anz * (+42)
10:47:08 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134803&oldid=133598 * B jonas * (+44) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
10:48:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:?Q?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134804 * Xff * (+115) Created page with "is the proof of turing completeness correct? --~~~~"
10:54:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:AsciiDots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134805&oldid=100413 * 5anz * (+92) /* Why are there no basics? */ new section
10:54:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:AsciiDots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134806&oldid=134805 * 5anz * (+72) /* Why are there no basics? */
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10:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134807&oldid=134803 * B jonas * (+74) /* Todo */
11:01:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134808&oldid=134783 * Ractangle * (+277) /* Examples */
11:02:30 <HackEso> In the Beginning was Befunge. And Befunge begot Fungot. And Fungot got Taneb. And Taneb tanebvented All the Things. Fnord.
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11:06:17 <HackEso> In the Famous Mountains of York, Taneb makes dew.
11:07:17 <HackEso> Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua.
11:07:22 <b_jonas> I forgot a lot of this lore about Taneb
11:08:07 <HackEso> Noooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
11:10:02 <HackEso> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon.
11:26:01 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134809 * 5anz * (+1215) Created page with "Hello, my name's 5anz, well, it's not my REAL name, but it's who I'd rather be known as online! So, uh... here's some stuff about me, I guess. I might add more to this page. == Esolang I made == I made [[B i n a r y]], an Esolang inspired by [[Whitespace]], just smalle
11:30:16 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134810&oldid=134799 * PkmnQ * (+2) /* tips */
11:31:43 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134811&oldid=134809 * 5anz * (-2) /* External recourses */
11:35:34 <esolangs> [[0 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134812&oldid=130487 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Python3 */
11:37:44 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134813&oldid=134764 * Ractangle * (+9)
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11:51:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134814&oldid=134808 * Ractangle * (+182) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:53:05 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134815&oldid=134814 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:59:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Grasp examples cat.jpg]]": unused, and conforming to an earlier (now nonexistent) draft of the language
12:00:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Grasp examples call.jpg]]": unused, and conforming to an earlier (now nonexistent) draft of the language
12:00:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Grasp examples append.jpg]]": unused, and conforming to an earlier (now nonexistent) draft of the language
12:03:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134816&oldid=134815 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Deadfish implementation */
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12:06:08 <fizzie> fungot: "this edit isn't going through"? Are *you* messing with the wiki too?
12:06:08 <fungot> fizzie: ( and whatever temporary data are stored there). but it is version 0.0.1 after all :) ( quantum physics)
12:07:37 <fizzie> Plot twist: turns out fungot's actually behind the whole "sandbox war".
12:07:37 <fungot> fizzie: mov ( pointer, fixnum, flonum, fnord, m-, fnord,
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12:25:37 <esolangs> [[x.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134817 * Xff * (+630) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''x.''' is a version of [[lambda calculus]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. it's a two instruction esolang == how it works == x. works like [[lambda calculus]](written a little differently) but the only thing you can do is the <code>x.</code> hence the name. its wri
12:29:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134818&oldid=134734 * Fizzie * (+941) /* unblocking me and unname4798 from esolang:sandbox */ respond
12:30:07 <fizzie> Thought I shouldn't just leave it unanswered, not that it'll help.
12:32:54 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134819&oldid=134817 * Xff * (+124) /* examples */
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12:34:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134820&oldid=134763 * Krolkrol * (+81) /* Introductions */
12:34:49 <esolangs> [[Cat Program (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134821&oldid=115863 * Krolkrol * (+69) /* Interpreters */
12:36:22 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134822&oldid=134819 * Xff * (+280) /* how it works */
12:37:33 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134823&oldid=134822 * Xff * (+1)
12:38:25 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134824&oldid=134823 * Xff * (+35) /* a simple example */
12:40:07 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134825&oldid=108671 * B jonas * (+50) /* Babbage's analytical engine */
12:42:18 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134826&oldid=134824 * Xff * (+223) /* how it works */
12:42:27 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134827&oldid=134826 * Xff * (-2) /* a simple example */
12:43:15 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134828&oldid=134827 * Xff * (+115) /* how it works */
12:43:46 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134829&oldid=134828 * Xff * (+8)
12:44:45 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134830&oldid=134829 * Xff * (+73)
12:45:08 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134831&oldid=134830 * Xff * (-2)
12:49:14 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134832&oldid=134831 * Xff * (+35) /* examples */
12:49:34 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134833&oldid=134832 * Xff * (-1) /* a simple example */
12:50:19 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134834&oldid=134833 * Xff * (+20) /* a simple example */
12:50:59 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134835&oldid=134834 * Xff * (+11) /* examples */
12:52:16 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134836&oldid=134835 * Xff * (+0) /* examples */
12:56:20 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134837&oldid=134836 * Xff * (+41) /* examples */
12:56:53 <esolangs> [[Cat Program (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134838&oldid=134821 * Krolkrol * (+20) /* Python */
13:01:57 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134839 * Ducbadatchem * (+2174) Stub, needed continuation
13:03:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134840 * Xff * (+174) Created page with "im pretty sure this is SK combinator calculus but im not sure: xyz.((xz)(yz)) x.(y.(z.((x.z.)(y.z.)))) (S) and xy.x x.(y.(x.)) (K)"
13:03:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134841&oldid=134840 * Xff * (+71)
13:03:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134842&oldid=134841 * Xff * (+1)
13:07:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134843&oldid=134842 * Xff * (+97)
13:08:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134844&oldid=134843 * Xff * (-343) Blanked the page
13:09:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134845&oldid=57619 * Xff * (+380) /* Keywords */
13:10:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134846&oldid=134844 * Xff * (+13)
13:16:01 <b_jonas> do you have a link for that thing that compiler for programming x86 with only jump instructions?
13:19:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134847&oldid=134039 * PrySigneToFry * (+511) /* UTC+8 */ new section
13:25:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134848&oldid=134534 * PrySigneToFry * (+297)
13:26:54 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134849&oldid=134367 * PrySigneToFry * (+393)
13:28:44 <esolangs> [[Isomorphism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134850&oldid=131114 * PrySigneToFry * (+111)
13:35:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134851&oldid=134735 * PrySigneToFry * (+647) /* Sandbox page */ new section
13:39:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/About more Categories]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134852&oldid=129205 * PrySigneToFry * (+129)
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13:46:01 <esolangs> [[User:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134853&oldid=125857 * PrySigneToFry * (+11) My smallest edit
13:46:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134854&oldid=134818 * Unname4798 * (+313)
13:48:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134855&oldid=134854 * Unname4798 * (+5)
13:48:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134856&oldid=134855 * Unname4798 * (-1)
13:50:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134857&oldid=134749 * PrySigneToFry * (+460) I think I need to place more language of this information on it. But my object isn't let the whole universe to know this user is banned.
13:54:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134858&oldid=134851 * PrySigneToFry * (+553) /* A question for you. */ new section
13:55:23 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134859&oldid=134849 * PrySigneToFry * (+58)
13:56:19 <esolangs> [[Viktor T. Toth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134860 * B jonas * (+434) Created page with "'''Viktor T. Toth''' is a physicist and self-described programmer with a screwdriver. He worked on non-esoteric programming including developing libraries for Macsyma (the computer algebra system). He created the following esoteric languages: * [[W (Viktor T. To
13:56:47 <esolangs> [[W (Viktor T. Toth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134861&oldid=109517 * B jonas * (+4)
13:56:53 <esolangs> [[Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134862&oldid=109504 * B jonas * (+4)
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14:20:32 <Hooloovoo> b_jonas, I'm not familiar with the jump-only version, but https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator is MOV-only
14:46:05 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134863 * PrySigneToFry * (+2865) Created page with "PSTFChatGPT == == #xio: 0 #g: 1 #mio: 1 #hu: #png: 0 #j: #wng: #h..."
14:46:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134864 * PrySigneToFry * (+35) Created page with "This article is written in Chinese."
14:47:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134865&oldid=134754 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
14:48:00 <b_jonas> Hooloovoo: oh, that must be it, thank you
14:48:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134866&oldid=134857 * Unname4798 * (+14)
14:48:46 <b_jonas> our article on it is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mov
14:49:06 <esolangs> [[Movfuscator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134867 * B jonas * (+17) Redirected page to [[Mov]]
14:49:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134868&oldid=134866 * Unname4798 * (-33)
14:49:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134869&oldid=134858 * PrySigneToFry * (+492)
15:06:57 <b_jonas> cow (copy on write) and interrupt both have meanings in CS, so I wonder if there could be an esoteric language called interrupting cow
15:08:22 <korvo> Sure. Put thunks into each COW structure. Whenever a COW is copied and a thunk is reached, pause the current copy and start another one. It's one way of looking at graph reduction. I'm not sure how much sharing is achieved by default, though.
15:09:19 <korvo> But I imagine you could make something gnarlier by requiring some sort of interrupt vector, which itself is a COW structure, to be registered to each thunk.
15:21:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134870&oldid=134816 * Ractangle * (+146) /* Variables */
15:22:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134871&oldid=134870 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Cat program */
15:22:40 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134872&oldid=134871 * Ractangle * (+4) /* A+B problem */
15:23:21 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134873&oldid=134872 * Ractangle * (+0) /* A+B problem */
15:24:15 <esolangs> [[Acme::Bleach]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134874 * B jonas * (+768) Created page with "'''Acme::Bleach''' is a language that executes arbitrary perl code disguised in an encoding consisting of only whitespace characters. Each character of the perl source code is encoded in eight bits, the bits represented in the Acme::Bleach source code by space and
15:24:47 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134875&oldid=132686 * B jonas * (-69)
15:26:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134876&oldid=134873 * Ractangle * (+27)
15:27:54 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134877&oldid=134523 * Ractangle * (+453) /* gar */
15:29:10 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134878&oldid=134784 * Ractangle * (+10) /* G# */
15:30:38 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134879&oldid=133755 * Ractangle * (+87) /* C Mono */
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15:32:04 <esolangs> [[Hodor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134880&oldid=100389 * B jonas * (-9) it's a fricking disambiguation page. it should contain not much more than links to pages that could be named like that.
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15:42:50 <esolangs> [[Hodor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134881&oldid=134880 * Unname4798 * (+12) add disambig template
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15:46:48 <b_jonas> WysiScript is a language where the source code is formatted text, and it only cares about the formats, not the text itself. That's great, and had to be done once, except… it's from 2017, which sounds way too late. Is there an esolang that did this earlier? I know there's the non-esoteric ColorForth that uses color instead of punctutation, but that still cares about the text too, as in it uses
15:46:54 <b_jonas> identifiers made of letter and numbers like some normal language.
15:47:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134882&oldid=134710 * Unname4798 * (-29)
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15:51:35 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134883&oldid=132687 * Ractangle * (+80) /* Gammaplex */
15:53:28 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134884&oldid=134789 * Ractangle * (+4) /* G# */
15:53:48 <esolangs> [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134885&oldid=124077 * B jonas * (+0)
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15:55:13 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134886&oldid=134654 * PkmnQ * (+130) /* Added commands */
15:55:36 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134887&oldid=134731 * Ractangle * (+199) /* Gaot++ */
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15:59:17 <b_jonas> cpressey has at least three cheese-oriented languages (Emmental, Mascarpone, SMETANA). do there exist cheese-oriented languages that weren't created by cpressey?
16:03:24 <esolangs> [[Lawrence J. Krakauer's decimal computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134888&oldid=119408 * B jonas * (-17) no need for wayback
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16:12:28 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134889&oldid=134887 * Ractangle * (-69) /* Postrado */
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16:15:33 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134890&oldid=131585 * B jonas * (+363)
16:19:49 <esolangs> [[X vs. Y]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134891 * Xff * (+599) Created page with "'''X vs. Y''' is a very simple esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] == memory == memory is stored in variables. they are defined like this: x y this sats x to the signed binary number y == syntax == {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! symbol !! written !! description |- | <c
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16:33:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134892&oldid=134868 * Ais523 * (-405) revert to the last version that was created by the user this page was about if a userpage is complying with the rules, it should be left in a state that matches the user's intent
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16:34:45 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/List]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134893 * B jonas * (+13186) Created page with "This is a list of some esoteric languages and other pages on this wiki, curated personally by me [[User:b_jonas]], with notes on them for myself. The list is in some semblance of order with similar or related languages sometimes close to each other. I shoul
16:35:11 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134894&oldid=134807 * B jonas * (+24) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
16:39:14 <b_jonas> I started the list, but I haven't done any extra browsing for now, just added a lot of the pages that were already either in https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Incomplete_list_of_some_interesting_or_notable_esolangs or that I have edited
16:41:34 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134895&oldid=134894 * B jonas * (+93) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
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16:55:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134896&oldid=134629 * Unname4798 * (+68)
17:01:24 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134897&oldid=134795 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Sort
17:02:35 <int-e> wtf is that Unname4798 / Tommyaweosme roleplay
17:04:17 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134898&oldid=134839 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
17:04:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134899&oldid=134896 * Unname4798 * (+259)
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17:15:12 <ais523> oh no – I typoed an URL and diffed two unrelated pages, and now I'm worried the bots will figure out how to do that and substantially increase the n in their O(n²) reads of the wiki
17:16:40 <esolangs> [[X vs. Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134900&oldid=134891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
17:18:22 <esolangs> [[Acme::Bleach]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134901&oldid=134874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Link, categories
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17:23:47 <ais523> int-e: I get the impression that a) they know each other offwiki, and b) Unname4798 is making changes to userpages which they believe the owning user would approve of, but is likely to be mistaken
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17:27:34 <esolangs> [[x.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134902&oldid=134837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Categories
17:28:46 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134903&oldid=134813 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) Categories
17:30:01 <drwiz> ais523: lol! that guy has an enemies list. is this for real?
17:31:14 <esolangs> [[W)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134904&oldid=134762 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) Categories
17:31:28 <int-e> We had a bit of edit-warring over the sandbox. The "enemies" are admins who intervened.
17:32:02 <ais523> it feels like there have always been a few immature people in the esolang community
17:32:14 <ais523> they grow up and become more mature, but then new immature people join
17:32:23 <drwiz> can't you just the ban the user? this type of stuff is frankly very silly in an otherwise wonderful wiki
17:32:26 <int-e> So... it's kind of real. It's anybody's guess how serious it really is... and how much of this is trolling born out of boredom.
17:32:43 <esolangs> [[;;;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134905&oldid=134761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Categories
17:32:44 <int-e> and yeah immaturity
17:33:46 <ais523> most of the community is great and most people don't really cause any drama – the problem is that the people who *do* cause drama cause a disproportionate amount of admin work and show up disproportionately on recent changes
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17:34:30 <esolangs> [[Hq9+8F]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134906&oldid=134760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) Categories
17:34:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134907&oldid=133733 * Unname4798 * (+91) Proof that 1=2 (joke)
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17:36:29 <ais523> and yes, it would be possible to ban all the drama-causing users, but I tend to prefer to avoid banning people if possible unless they have no useful contributions
17:38:10 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134908&oldid=134903 * Unname4798 * (+125)
17:38:38 <b_jonas> I mean I'm edit-warring too, removing the non-constructive stub tags that PythonShellDebugWindow is spamming everywhere
17:39:32 <ais523> that's just reverting, the edit has to be done or reverted twice to become a war
17:39:58 <APic> Absolutely not difficult to prove that 1=2 with the „correct“ Axioms and/or prerequisite Assumptions
17:41:03 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:41:23 <ais523> > { let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x }
17:41:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘{’
17:41:32 <ais523> > let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x
17:41:33 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:41:39 <ais523> @eval { let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x }
17:42:04 <b_jonas> they're annoying me, this is not an encylopedia that is trying to be an all-in-one reference work you put on your shelves, having good documentation off-site and a link from this site usually means a better documented language than the nonsense "language" that new users create a lot of
17:42:05 <ais523> looks like I don't remember how to do that trick in Haskell any more
17:42:36 <b_jonas> hasn't haskell changed n+k patterns? oh wait, you don't have + anywhere here
17:42:40 <ais523> b_jonas: fwiw, I think {{stub}} on an article that is only an external link is correct – the page could be improved by expanding it with more information
17:43:21 <b_jonas> yeah, though expanding non-stub pages like [[INTERCAL]] would be much more useful
17:43:28 <APic> We can even gödelize countably (and thus also uncountably) infinitely many of those Equations into natural Numbers.
17:43:42 <APic> Welcome to Hilbert's IRC-Channel!
17:43:54 <ais523> at some point I need to get around to documenting Jelly on the wiki
17:44:08 <ais523> although it's quite difficult as I don't fully understand what all the commands do (even though there's documentation)
17:44:51 <int-e> > let 1 = 2 where 2 = 3 in 1
17:44:52 <b_jonas> @run { let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x }
17:44:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘{’
17:45:19 <b_jonas> @run let { x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; } in x
17:45:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:45:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:45:25 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah, n+k patterns are not part of Haskell 2010. GHC still supports them
17:45:30 <int-e> ais523: that's not an expression
17:45:38 <ais523> > let (=) 1 2 = True in 1 = 2
17:45:40 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:45:51 <int-e> and = is syntax, not an infix operator
17:46:02 <APic> Probably easier in Rust?
17:46:03 <ais523> > let (==) 1 2 = True in 1 == 2
17:46:29 <APic> Where You can allegedly directly modify the Program-Trees inside the Program itself?
17:48:04 <ais523> although Rust does allow you to run parse tree modification code at compile time, this only happens in places where you've specifically annotated it should happen
17:48:15 <ais523> also I don't think we have a rust compiler bot on the channel
17:48:45 <APic> Never messed with Rust yet
17:49:10 <APic> At the Moment i try https://github.com/jl2/nim get to work
17:49:12 <int-e> Rust macros are probably the ugliest part of the language.
17:49:37 <int-e> The thing they operate on is more of a token stream than a syntax tree.
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17:50:26 <b_jonas> it's funnier than that, they take token streams as input but have to output valid syntax
17:50:32 <int-e> So you get auxiliary crates like https://docs.rs/syn/latest/syn/ to fill the gap.
17:51:09 <b_jonas> but that's only one kind of macros, there's another kind that APic was talking about
17:51:29 <int-e> I haven't felt the need for macros yet, tbh... my Rust coding is still mostly at the toy level.
17:51:45 <ais523> APic: here's how you can do the 1==2 in Rust: https://tio.run/##XYyxCsMgFEV3v@IaMvigSzMm2F8Jr8FCwJj0qZP47TauPdPhDEdyTK0dvMm5SvYuaoi7PG9udd/MPqLAjDynBGsxvm8h2Fdv0D0QqvoEHLwHQygKN5fsIfmgzVDq8PgbavPsq4loUbW1Hw
17:51:59 <ais523> but it looks massively suspicious, more so than the Haskell
17:52:08 <APic> ais523: Big Thanks!
17:52:22 <ais523> int-e: I consider it to be more of an s-expression than anything
17:52:59 <ais523> a bracketed group is a single tokentree, to a macro – you can recurse into it but you can't match a prefix or suffix
17:53:37 <b_jonas> I feel like rust stole the idea from C that macros is where they delegate anything where they don't want to invent a nice general solution and don't want to document. Like, C has pages of standardese on what is and isn't valid in a sizeof. But is offsetof(struct{}) valid? Nobody knows, it's just a macro, not a *real* language construct, so they define it in like two lines, let the compiler writers
17:53:40 <ais523> you could make the 1==2 less suspicious by generating a macro that covered more of the code, and making it an attribute macro so there was less obviously a macro call involved (but that would mean making a whole separate module I think)
17:53:43 <b_jonas> decide. So actual implementations disagree.
17:54:22 <ais523> b_jonas: it may be more of a case of "we don't want to impose a solution and then discover it's wrong"
17:54:25 <b_jonas> "a bracketed group is a single tokentree" => yep, they stole that part from C macros too, except C macros only count round parenthesis, while rust macros count curlies and square brackets too
17:54:50 <ais523> e.g. there was the try! macro for ages before the ? operator was invented
17:55:15 <ais523> (they do the same thing, but it gave them time to work out the typing rules for the ? operator correctly)
17:55:18 <b_jonas> well, the difference is that rust macros can isolate the first or last token of a token stream, or match if two tokens are equal, while C can't
17:56:49 <ais523> how do you do the "match if two tokens are equal" – can you write the same variable twice on the match side?
17:57:10 <ais523> I think Rust macros might actually be TC, though, which would be a major difference from C if true
17:57:59 <ais523> recursion in Rust macros works weirdly but I think it's powerful enough to construct loops that can access unbounded memory
18:00:03 <b_jonas> also rust uses macros to get what look like functions but can't be functions because of unusual syntax: print! and panic! are macros because they take a variable number of arguments and because it implicitly takes shared references of them, both of which are banned for rust functions; assert! is a macro because it takes either one or two arguments, similarly unimplemented! takes zero or one arguments
18:00:39 <b_jonas> syntactically transforming from these to something built from ordinary functions is easy enough so they implemented them as macros
18:01:04 <ais523> one of the things I least like about Rust is all the autoreferencing and autodereferencing
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18:01:50 <ais523> it makes programs hard to read because the distinction between a reference and the thing it references isn't easily visible in the code – but the distinction is often important, so hiding it from the user makes readability hard
18:01:54 <b_jonas> I don't understand why env! is a macro rather than a const fn though
18:02:15 <ais523> C++ had the better approach, using . and -> as separate operators
18:02:21 <ais523> b_jonas: do you mean cfg!?
18:02:58 <ais523> env! is easy – it doesn't work at runtime
18:03:11 <ais523> whereas const fns have to work at both runtime and compile time
18:03:13 <b_jonas> cfg! takes an unquoted word argument so that woulnd't work as is, but it could be a function if it took a string
18:04:00 <ais523> like, env! absolutely requires a constant argument to work properly – it wouldn't work if given a non-constant argument, but const fns can't assume their argument is a constant because they might be run at runtime
18:04:22 <b_jonas> so? it's possible to make env! work at runtime, just save the compile-time environment if env! is used in a way that the compiler can't evaluate during compile time. include_bytes! can't reasonably be implemented like that because you can't save all accessible files, but the environment has a limited size
18:04:28 <ais523> that said, it could probably be a function that takes a const generic – env::<"PATH">() – except that const generics aren't implemented for non-integer types yet
18:04:52 <ais523> b_jonas: that would be a privacy leak I think
18:05:11 <b_jonas> true, it would save USER and stuff like that
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18:05:22 <b_jonas> ok, then env! being a macro is reasonable
18:05:50 <b_jonas> though it's only a privacy leak to a somewhat limited extent, because other users on the same linux host can already see all process's environments by default
18:06:08 <b_jonas> that's why you don't put passwords into the environment
18:07:04 <ais523> b_jonas: I was taught that passwords in the environment is correct, because command-line arguments leak more easily than environment variables do
18:07:32 <ais523> although I think the correct course of action is more like "use an environment variable that holds the path to a file that contains the password"
18:08:05 <b_jonas> you could also say that panic! is a macro because it has to save its compile-time location like __FILE__ and __LINE__ in C, but I don't think that works because the Option::unwrap function gives a stack trace with source location of the caller too
18:08:12 <ais523> cat: /proc/1/environ: Permission denied
18:08:44 <ais523> (just wanted to pick an arbitrary root-owned process, I think init counts)
18:09:15 <b_jonas> ok, I'm wrong then, this doesn't hold in modern linux then
18:09:20 <ais523> I guess the really interesting thing is if you want to transmit a temporary password from one process to another
18:09:23 <ais523> I guess you use a pipe?
18:10:06 <b_jonas> yes, bash makes that easy these days
18:10:52 <b_jonas> or a descriptor to a temporary file or other solutions of course
18:11:17 <b_jonas> temporary file might be easier because a pipe can get full
18:11:19 <ais523> b_jonas: thank you for making your language list – there were a few esolangs there that I missed
18:11:45 <b_jonas> wow! that one was on my user page already though, so the list doesn't necessarily add much
18:11:50 <APic> Yes, looks nice
18:12:51 <drwiz> b_jonas: what are some nonsense languages that you found new users creating?
18:13:26 <b_jonas> drwiz: dunno, cycle through https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random and you'll find some
18:13:47 <b_jonas> I don't remember them usually
18:15:06 <ais523> you can pick a recent year category – esolangs have become worse on average as time goes on (the good esolangs are still just as good, but there are more pointless esolangs pulling the average down)
18:15:17 <b_jonas> what's the deal with https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Plutonium&diff=prev&oldid=107935 ? is it the OP ragequitting the wiki?
18:15:43 <ais523> Pages in category "2023" \ The following 200 pages are in this category, out of 411 total.
18:16:04 <drwiz> ais523: can you link me to a pointless esolang? as an aspiring esolang writer, it'll help me to calibrate where I stand
18:16:06 <ais523> b_jonas: that's normally a sign of "I changed my mind about creating this page" rather than a ragequit
18:16:37 <b_jonas> and that's just the ones with a year category
18:18:11 <ais523> drwiz: there are lots which are basically just brainfuck with a worse syntax and some extra commands that aren't particularly interesting, e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Yee
18:18:23 <int-e> `mkx ../bin/tio//<<<"$@" sed 's=.*##==' | tr @- ++ | base64 -d 2>/dev/null | cat <(printf "\x1f\x8b\x08\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00") - | gzip -dq 2>/dev/null | LC_CTYPE=C sed -zE 's=.*\xFF\xFF(.*)\xFF\xFF.*=\1='
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18:18:39 <int-e> `tio https://tio.run/##XYyxCsMgFEV3v@IaMvigSzMm2F8Jr8FCwJj0qZP47TauPdPhDEdyTK0dvMm5SvYuaoi7PG9udd/MPqLAjDynBGsxvm8h2Fdv0D0QqvoEHLwHQygKN5fsIfmgzVDq8PgbavPsq4loUbW1Hw
18:18:40 <HackEso> macro_rules! replace_equals { ($a:tt == $b:tt) => ($a != $b) } \ fn main() { \ println!("{}", replace_equals!(1 == 2)); \ }
18:18:57 <ais523> it's like people think "I want to make an esolang with syntax that looks like X" but can't think of interesting semantics, so they just put all the commands of BF in there so that it'll be Turing-complete
18:19:28 <ais523> int-e: ooh, so that's how you decode TIO URLs
18:20:00 <b_jonas> there are also language pages where the definition is seriously lacking, and there's no implementation nor extended description off-site, so I can't tell much about the properties of the language that it's suspposed to describe
18:20:11 <drwiz> ais523: thanks for linking me to it. that's exactly the type of example I was looking for
18:20:18 <ais523> I assume that the various other optional sections (header, footer, arguments, etc.) go between the \xFFs near the end
18:20:36 <drwiz> so if I want to make an esolang, I have to do much much better than this. this kind of thing is good to know for people like me.
18:21:02 <int-e> ais523: there are two or three fields terminated or separated by \xFF\xFF... the first field is the language
18:21:13 <drwiz> maybe there should be a "Contributing" page on the wiki which tells what type of content is suitable for this wiki and what isn't. perhaps there can be a word about not submitting "low effort" languages to the wiki.
18:21:23 <ais523> I actually use this sort of thing to motivate new users – "even if your esolang isn't very good it almost certainly won't be the worst language on the wiki"
18:22:11 <ais523> drwiz: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About is the closest we have, I think
18:22:12 <b_jonas> drwiz: no, the point is that those useless low-effort languages are usually appropriate onto the wiki. there are some exceptions, but that's only the minority of pages.
18:22:29 <ais523> together with the help and policy links
18:22:51 <int-e> that snippet also answers "how do I abuse gzip to decompress a raw deflate stream"
18:23:07 <drwiz> b_jonas: why are the low effort languages appropriate on the wiki? not arguing. just trying to understand the standards.
18:23:51 <b_jonas> drwiz: the original purpose why the wiki was founded is to attract the people who want to document those kinds of languages away from wikipedia
18:24:21 <b_jonas> because of that there's no minimum standard on the esowiki
18:25:02 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the original purpose was to get the esolangs documented here so that the information wouldn't be lost if/when it was deleted from Wikipedia, although that might be equivalent to what you said
18:25:25 <drwiz> who runs this wiki btw? does it cost money? who pays for it?
18:25:28 <ais523> but lots of esolang content got deleted from Wikipedia at around the time the wiki was created, so the standards for inclusion were intentionally low
18:25:37 <b_jonas> this one has no useful information in the history so it can probably be deleted safely https://esolangs.org/wiki/FunnyEsolangLol
18:26:11 <b_jonas> drwiz: fizzie runs the wiki, the money comes from a sponsor credited on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About
18:26:13 <ais523> the wiki server is run by fizzie; the wiki's content is moderated by a team of admins, but in practice it's mostly me who does the moderation; and it's paid for by Bytemark, a hosting company who donates server hosting
18:26:56 <drwiz> b_jonas, ais523: thanks
18:27:05 <b_jonas> some of the pages that annoy me are the ones that are not too interesting esolangs that hog prime namespace that should be left for better esolangs, especially when I feel like I can't steal them for the more interesting thing with the same name because that more interesting thing is less esoteric or less of a language
18:27:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[FunnyEsolangLol]]": Author request: deletion requested by author, and has never had nontrivial content
18:28:03 <b_jonas> like https://esolangs.org/wiki/W because https://esolangs.org/wiki/W is not esoteric enough, https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX because https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX_(Knuth) is not esoteric,
18:28:37 <b_jonas> but also about just pages where there isn't (yet) another thing to describe, but they still feel like they're taking up prime namespace
18:28:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134909&oldid=134700 * Ais523 * (-86) /* General languages */ rm redlink
18:29:22 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC is one where I might actually steal the namespace... hmmm
18:29:39 <b_jonas> that's one where the other is decidedly esoteric but less a language
18:29:40 <ais523> the supply of esolang names seems to be even more inexhaustible than the supply of names for other things
18:29:54 <int-e> MIX... I'd call it esoteric, in the sense that it was specifically designed to be similar to, but unlike, existing architectures.
18:29:57 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, which is why it sucks that people give bad names
18:30:30 <ais523> I am considering naming an esolang after a smell, but am not sure how I would express the specific smell it's named after on the wiki, or indeed when writing about it in other contexts
18:30:31 <Hooloovoo> I would argue that it's exactly the same amount of inexhaustible since both are countably infinite, right?
18:30:31 <int-e> Eh I'm not sure what the point was.
18:30:36 <b_jonas> int-e: designing something to be unlike existing languages doesn't make it esoteric, it could just be an experimental language designed so you can try ununsual new ideas to see what sticks
18:30:48 <ais523> this problem has come up in non-esoteric contexts when people try to trademark smells
18:31:01 <int-e> b_jonas: It's also not widely used outside of TAoCP.
18:31:09 <b_jonas> after a smell => by a parfume sold commercially?
18:31:30 <ais523> b_jonas: not so much perfumes, smelling is part of their function and you can't trademark something that's part of the product's functionality
18:31:51 <int-e> b_jonas: But it's not obscure the way most other languages on the wiki are.
18:31:55 <ais523> but some products have smells added to make it recognisable what company made them, when you open the packet
18:32:10 <int-e> Anyway. It's an opinion.
18:32:11 <b_jonas> right, I'm saying the perfume for naming the esolang
18:32:47 <ais523> <b_jonas> int-e: designing something to be unlike existing languages doesn't make it esoteric, it could just be an experimental language designed so you can try ununsual new ideas to see what sticks ← I am not sure – sometimes I think about languages which contain features that aren't widely (or ever) used just because I think they're a good idea, and am not sure whether they're esoteric or not
18:33:33 <ais523> the designers of Rust explained that they have a braces-and-semicolons syntax because practically useful languages have a "weirdness budget" of nonstandard features that people don't recognise, and they won't use the language if it's too weird
18:33:46 <ais523> and they didn't want to spend theirs on anything other than features that were essential to the language
18:33:59 <ais523> so the syntax was intentionally boring
18:34:20 <ais523> I think arguably, if you don't care about staying within a given weirdness budget, that makes the language into an esolang
18:36:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134910&oldid=134794 * Ais523 * (+245) /* is this a true disan count? */ it's still an example program, just not *this* example
18:36:48 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, and trying to make the syntax resemble existing languages resulted in at least two weird features, one is how names in a pattern are disambiguated between a new binding and an existing nullary struct/variant constructor, the other is that an if/while/loop statement can either be a statement without a terminating semicolon or an expression
18:37:36 <b_jonas> ok, but MIX does have a small weirdness budget, it does care about being similar to existing languages of the time it was created
18:37:59 <ais523> I think Rust should have had syntactically relevant case (with types, enum constructors, etc., having to start with an uppercase letter, and variables, function names, etc. with a non-uppercase letter)
18:39:24 <ais523> problems with non-cased languages like Chinese can probably be solved by using the underscore as an uppercase letter (although in practice I think most people use English identifiers rather than those from their native language)
18:39:36 <b_jonas> I would prefer if they allowed optional redundant empty parenthesis after variant constructors for disambiguate, both in expressions and patterns, eg. you can write None()
18:39:52 <ais523> incidentally, I am wondering whether if, when programming in Japanese, it makes sense to use katakana versus hiragana to disambiguate type from variable names, in much the same way that English speakers use case
18:39:54 <b_jonas> then you'd have a way to disambiguate in at least one direction
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18:40:59 <b_jonas> perhaps they could even add some disambiguation in the other direction, eg. you can use `const` as an analog of `mut` before a new binding, or with the @ punctuation somehow
18:41:31 <ais523> actually the ambiguity I most dislike in Rust is between trait methods and other trait methods with the same name, especially the way that you have to import the trait to be able to use methods from it
18:42:04 <ais523> this could be partially fixed by allowing people to import the individual trait method, as opposed to the trait as a whole, which would be consistent with other imports (at present, importing a trait is sort-of like a glob import)
18:42:06 <b_jonas> as in foo@_ is clearly a new binding
18:42:58 <ais523> the only "natural-looking" way to disambiguate that I can think of is to require the path on an enum constructor
18:43:18 <ais523> i.e. match { Option::Some(x) => x, Option::None => 0 }
18:43:33 <ais523> but that would probably get tedious after a while
18:43:50 <ais523> nobody wants to have to write match { Some(x @ _) => x, None => None }
18:44:47 <ais523> this is one reason I like casing as disambiguation
18:44:56 <ais523> given that almost everyone is doing that in practice anyway
18:45:05 <b_jonas> I was thinking of Maybe::None or _::None, and that could still be useful if you could allow _::Foo in *expressions* where Foo would be allowed even if not imported as long as the typechecker can figure out the enum type eg. from the type of the caller function, but I think that would be a bit ugly in patterns, while Foo() looks less ugly
18:45:40 <ais523> Rust doesn't have a Maybe, that's Haskell
18:45:58 <ais523> ooh, _::Some is interesting
18:46:04 <b_jonas> Some and None are fom Standard ML
18:46:18 <ais523> it's called option in OCaml, at least – not sure about Standard ML
18:46:35 <b_jonas> I mean the names Some and None come from there
18:46:41 <ais523> (and OCaml type names are in lowercase)
18:46:50 <ais523> (variant names are titlecase, though)
18:47:37 <ais523> OCaml polymorphic variants seem like they might be a useful feature in Rust, but probably not useful enough for the complexity of implementing them
18:49:06 <ais523> they'd solve the whole thiserror/anyhow problem, at least
18:50:53 <ais523> I guess the way you'd implement it in Rust would be "an enum is a union of newtypes, if two newtypes appear in the same enum they are given representations that are always distinguishable, so that the union can be dereferenced/matched against safely"
18:51:09 <ais523> I think some C programs implement Rust-like enums like that
18:52:36 <ais523> although, probably types would have to be explicitly marked as enum variants, to avoid the problem where a type looks like a ZST but is not actually zero-sized because it's used as an enum variant
18:53:53 <b_jonas> ais523: is that with the enum declared once and for all, or declared once but extendible later, or not declared at all and just created implicitly by the typechecker when it finds what variants an expression can be?
18:54:03 <ais523> but thinking about it, this solution seems obviously correct, and if I ever end up writing a Rust-like language that doesn't have backwards compatiblity constraints I will probably use it
18:54:15 <b_jonas> also is this related to Haskell GADTs?
18:54:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I would do it OCaml-style: you can declare a specific enum with a particular set of fields, but can also make ad hoc enums by listing all the variants or by allowing the compiler to infer the list of variants
18:55:22 <ais523> I am not confident enough about Haskell's GADTs to know how they correspond to polymorphic variants
19:01:43 <esolangs> [[7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134911&oldid=97012 * Ais523 * (+1) /* 3 (passive), plus an anonymous active command */ fix typo
19:05:26 <ais523> I like the symmetry between ad-hoc enums as sum types, and tuples (effectively ad-hoc structs) as product types
19:06:33 <ais523> OCaml makes it even more ad-hoc by not requiring the variant type to be declared (although it uses a sigil to mark a type as a variant type, so that the compiler knows that it doesn't need to look for the declaration)
19:09:42 <int-e> GADTs are something very different; they are algebraic data types (variants) that can be constrained through types. The motivating example is usually something like data Expr t where { EInt :: Int -> Expr Int; EBool :: Bool -> Expr Int; EPlus :: Expr Int -> Expr Int -> Expr Int; EEq :: Expr a -> Expr a -> Expr Bool }
19:10:13 <int-e> which tracks an expression's type in its 't' argument; Expr Int are Int-valued expressions while Expr Bool are Bool-valued expressions.
19:10:49 <ais523> that one could just be two mutually recursive ADTs if not for the EEq, which belongs to both of them
19:10:53 <int-e> They do not offer any ad-hoc extensions with additional alternatives.
19:12:08 <int-e> People write libraries with heavier type-level machinery to get extensible data types, for example https://hackage.haskell.org/package/extensible-0.9/docs/Data-Extensible-Sum.html
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19:13:51 <ais523> it crosses my mind that Rust *almost* has GADTs – it doesn't outright support not having certain variants in certain parameterized versions of the enum, but you can simulate it using traits and uninhabited types
19:14:00 <int-e> ais523: You could add, say, ELambda :: (Expr a -> Expr b) -> Expr (a -> b), and then it would be an infinite family of ADTs
19:14:48 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134912&oldid=134897 * Ractangle * (+68) /* Gift */
19:15:24 <int-e> Anyway, really totally different from polymorphic variants.
19:15:47 <ais523> oh, no, it doesn't quite work – you would need trait specialisation to, e.g., define a trait that was implemented for all types, but differently for integers
19:16:03 <ais523> int-e: right, I think I understand the feature now
19:16:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134913&oldid=134899 * Tommyaweosme * (+346) /* Appeal the revert */
19:17:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134914&oldid=134892 * Tommyaweosme * (-136) Replaced content with "meow"
19:18:09 <int-e> (of course if you add ELambda evaluating EEq will get difficult)
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19:19:33 <Noisytoot> b_jonas: If whitespace counts as formats, there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Whitespace
19:19:34 <ais523> int-e: only if you require it to return the correct answer in all cases; if it's a "can prove equal" versus "can't prove equal" it's fine
19:20:34 <ais523> it feels like, in some contexts in which function equality is relevant, it is in practice often quite easy to prove…
19:20:41 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134915&oldid=134876 * Ractangle * (+207) /* Examples */
19:21:47 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134916&oldid=134582 * Ractangle * (+140) /* Brainfuck */
19:30:34 <esolangs> [[Meow (tommyaweosme)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134917 * Tommyaweosme * (+995) Created page with "{{lowercase}} meow is a language created by [[user:tommyaweosme]]. == commands == === datatypes === cat - string treat - number toy - float sleep - boolean kitty() - convert to cat feed() - convert to treat play() - convert to toy snore() - conve
19:30:53 <esolangs> [[Meow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134918&oldid=119742 * Tommyaweosme * (+26) added mine
19:32:56 <esolangs> [[Amo gus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134919 * Tommyaweosme * (+396) Created page with "Amo gus is a programming challenge created by [[user:tommyaweosme]] for [[meow (tommyaweosme)|meow]]. == What it is? == An amo gus program does this: * asks for input * returns "gus" if input is "amo" * returns "amo" if input is "gus" * otherwise, do nothing For pro
19:35:36 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134920&oldid=130811 * Tommyaweosme * (+102)
19:36:11 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134921&oldid=134920 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) t y p o (weve spent our whole life waiting to fix this) t y p o (nah jk just a few seconds) t y p o
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20:23:21 <fizzie> I pay for the domain, incidentally. But it's less money than the hosting would be, at least for most of the ways of doing it.
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21:15:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] to [[G Sharp]]
21:38:08 <b_jonas> Noisytoot: thank you, I did know about Whitespace, I even listed it close to Wysiscript in https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas/List , but I don't think it really counts
21:41:37 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134924 * Ractangle * (+229) Created page with "TESTLANG is an esolang created by [[Ractangle]] with one purpose. Testing stuff ==Syntax== ===Commands=== {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! Action |- | out || Prints a word next to it |- | note || Will ignore a word next to it |}"
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22:02:45 <esolangs> [[Meow (tommyaweosme)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134925&oldid=134917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) Categories
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22:36:29 <zzo38> In my opinion, of designing a programming language, I do not need to consider "weirdness budget" so much, although depending on what it is specific being made for (e.g. if it is designed to be usable with the C preprocessor or if it is designed to be a variant of C, vs if it is something else and the syntax and meanings might be difference in many ways)
22:36:57 <zzo38> Furthermore, something might be similar if it was based on some feature of other programming languages, unless the designer thinks it should be better in a different way, in which case it can be made a different way instead.
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22:45:24 <esolangs> [[Or++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134926&oldid=134518 * TheCanon2 * (+155) Added a Collatz sequence
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23:16:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134927&oldid=134907 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) /* Brainfuck is turing complete, but 1=2 */
23:17:31 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134928&oldid=134745 * Tommyaweosme * (+184)
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23:19:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134929&oldid=134856 * Tommyaweosme * (+339) /* unblocking me and unname4798 from Esolang:Sandbox */
23:21:17 <zzo38> (I also think that some features that have been used in some of the more modern programming languages are bad ideas, although so are some of the features of older programming languages, e.g. the confusing syntax for types in C programming language)
23:36:56 <korvo> zzo38: I've gone back and forth on this. With Monte, we deliberately incorporated syntax ideas from Python in order to make something that had mass appeal. Nobody liked it.
23:37:18 <korvo> This time I've chosen to use S-expressions as surface syntax and spend all the weirdness budget in the IDE and VCS.
23:37:39 <korvo> The budget is real, mostly because *you* the esoteric PL designer have a limited imagination.
23:40:04 <zzo38> I don't know about Monte though, although I don't really like so much the syntax of Python, but some people do like it.
23:40:47 <zzo38> But, it is not only about the syntax. I think a "goto" command is a good thing to have, and that Unicode string types is not a good thing to have built-in.
23:43:10 <korvo> Monte was an attempt at a Python-flavored E. It was one of several languages to emerge from the Python 3 situation. I'm the only person to write serious amounts of it.
23:44:39 <korvo> I mean, dash wrote a few thousand lines, too. Like, dash wrote a lexer and parser, not nothing. But I wrote a nanopass compiler, a raytracer, a spellserver, a TUI widget library, and a bunch of other crap.
23:57:44 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134930 * Corbin * (+623) Stub a page on NQL so that I can link to it from the Busy Beaver Gauge.