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00:04:08 <esolangs> [[Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134931&oldid=50791 * Corbin * (+84) Use infobox proglang to consolidate some given info. Add bluelinks and stub.
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00:25:36 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134932&oldid=134930 * Corbin * (+25) Add .nql file extension.
00:39:33 <ais523> <korvo> The budget is real, mostly because *you* the esoteric PL designer have a limited imagination. ← perhaps – but I think people normally pick a weirdness budget substantially less than what my imagination would allow
01:28:13 <salpynx> if i were a bored teenager, i might consider creating real esolangs with names like "Strings and boxes", "Standard-blox", or "Sanctified black copper calx" for Unicode look alike names to notify this channel that a page named Sandbox was created.
01:28:31 <salpynx> chat GPT just created an esolang for me based on Standard abstract complexes, it calls it Simplicia, which is a more creative name than "S𝗍andа𝗋𝖽⠀аbѕ𝗍𝗋ас𝗍⠀сo𝗆р𝐥еx"
01:29:04 <zzo38> I think ais523 is probably correct. However, I would not generally deliberately pick a "weirdness budget" but just what specific features I think that specific programming language should have, and it is not specific to esoteric programming languages. Another thing that sometimes has an effect is what it is designed to be compatible with, for some kinds of "compatible".
01:30:02 <salpynx> the AI generated esoteric code like: ADD_SIMPLEX 3 [0,1,2,3] // Tetrahedron representing a nested loop structure
01:30:15 <salpynx> it struck me as pretty novel to have a conceptually esoteric language with sensible readable keywords, rather than the fashion for abstract or otherwise cryptic syntax.
01:30:16 <salpynx> INTERCAL comes to mind, but I can't think of much else notable. Golfing and tarpit languages suit single symbol syntax, and that's what seems popular.
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01:42:33 <salpynx> awkward, deliberately obtuse, or dumb weirdness stays weird. Clever, useful and usable weirdness is innovation and will likely become mainstream
01:44:49 <zzo38> Some of it might. Some might not become mainstream, or will but in a different way. (I think that PostScript has many good features that are not as common in the most commonly used programming languages)
01:50:57 <salpynx> I thought there was a PostScript article on the wiki, looks like there isn't. It's hard to place some of those retro computing languages, and even Uxn which I added recently that sit somewhere in the intersection of good + interesting
01:52:20 <ais523> single letter keeps the parser simpler
01:52:21 <salpynx> it would be sad if we couldn't include good and interesting languages, but being too far in that direction almost seems like grounds for exclusion from the eso- category
01:56:07 <ais523> there are some weird ideas I've had that I'm not sure whether they're good or bad, e.g. generalizing an operator that works along the lines of Rust's ? to handle the List monad in addition to the Maybe monad (but limiting the scope to one block rather than the function, in both cases)
01:56:45 <ais523> so, e.g., { xs? + 1 } would be equivalent to xs.map(|x| x + 1)
01:57:05 <ais523> I think the operator would have to be called something other than ?, though
01:57:24 <ais523> but this is elegant in a way, it's sort-of like the opposite of do notation
01:58:45 <salpynx> toy languages that test an idea are good, they fit in the esolang category and are easily recognisable as a useful thing (and could spark other creative ideas)
01:59:36 <ais523> if you can take one new idea, put familiar (to esolangers at least) syntax around it and build a language, it can teach you a lot
01:59:44 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too
01:59:53 <ais523> I don't think I've seen that happen in ages, though, which is a pity
02:02:03 <salpynx> based on a recent joke comment here i've started a basically bf clone, but the tape is is an infinte 3d lattice of cells which are accessed by following the path of the Lorenz attractor... the parameters of which are determined by properties of the source code
02:02:04 <zzo38> I also think some things are worth something too, such as, [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]], [[User:Ian/Computer architectures]], etc too. Notice also they mention "some really weird ideas for the VAX that would make it almost esolang-like"
02:03:24 <ais523> I think there's a big overlap between esoprogramming and "found languages", i.e. things that turned out to be usable as programming languages despite not being intended that way
02:03:55 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too
02:04:02 <ais523> although the latter normally end up becoming directly ontopic due to people creating an esolang that compiles to them
02:04:57 <shachaf> ais523: I've thought about multiple things of that form.
02:05:40 <salpynx> I think best case scenario is I get a finite tape that intersects itself in unpredicatable ways. It's fun to create an interpreter for. I have a rudimentary one that is proving difficult to debug, because I'm not sure what exactly to expect when i move the data pointer :)
02:06:20 <shachaf> There was a monad syntax proposal where you could write "do { f (<- a) (<- b) }" to mean "do { x <- a; y <- b; f x y }", and so on.
02:07:23 <shachaf> But as a more syntactic thing, I've wondered about a programming language where there's an operator to have a thing that takes "the rest of the block" as an argument.
02:08:09 <salpynx> .. it made me think about using chaotic attractors for control flow, like Conedy or Thue-Mirr. Refracting chaotic trajectories might be interesting
02:08:32 <ais523> shachaf: yes, I've had thoughts along those lines too, although they never really came to anything
02:08:35 <shachaf> So you could say e.g. -- assuming you indicate this operator with ` -- { if(p)`; let x = for(xs)`; let y = for(ys)`; ... }
02:08:56 <shachaf> (In the above the thing can also pass a value to the rest of the block.)
02:09:48 <shachaf> But also just "for(xs)`++;" or whatever as an inline loop without naming the variable.
02:10:08 <shachaf> There are surprisingly many cases where you have a thing that occupies the rest of the block.
02:10:17 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh has a "link ... else ... then" block; if both inner parts are empty then it acts like a operator that takes "the rest of the block" as an argument.
02:10:19 <salpynx> What is the class of mathematical curiosities where it is unclear whether the thing is a programming language or not? Thue-Mirr is a bit like that, there's a binary sequence thing I can no longer find on the wiki that falls into the same category -- curious systems that exist but aren't neccesarily for programming
02:11:00 <shachaf> And there are even more things when you start thinking about this as the basic primitive.
02:11:21 <ais523> now I'm surprised that I haven't seen an esolang with an if-else-then statement
02:11:36 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if some practical language was capable of that, although I can't think of an example offhand
02:11:55 <ais523> Perl has an unless statement – does that allow an else?
02:12:12 <ais523> it does! I had to look it up
02:12:23 <shachaf> ais523: Some lambda calculus things often represents booleans with false as the first argument. Though this is more of a convention, I suppose.
02:12:25 <ais523> but there isn't an elsunless
02:12:32 <shachaf> Then again, so is true/false itself.
02:12:59 <ais523> I have considered a representation where true is Some(()) and false is None, which would be asymmetrical
02:13:10 <ais523> it makes some things more natural and other things much more awkward
02:13:34 <shachaf> By the way: Do you have a good name for the partially-ordered type {_|_, false, true}, with the order {_|_ < false, _|_ < true}?
02:13:41 <shachaf> This comes up in a lot of situations and I'd like a short name for it.
02:15:29 <ais523> oh, I think I recognise that but don't know what if it's called, if it even has a commonly recognised name
02:16:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134933&oldid=134528 * Tommyaweosme * (+11) amg uso o
02:16:33 <shachaf> MiniSAT calls this "lbool" for "lifted boolean".
02:16:39 <shachaf> (And probably other SAT solvers, I don't remember now.)
02:17:27 <shachaf> But there are many other situations.
02:18:25 <shachaf> For example, when you're doing a distributed transaction, you can track each participant in the transaction as having that state (maybe, succeeded, failed).
02:18:41 <shachaf> And also the entire transaction -- the whole transaction is just the "and" of all the participant states.
02:22:31 <ais523> it's one of those types that has two comparison operators at right angles: the "more defined than" operator and the "truer than" operator
02:27:32 <salpynx> Perl can do unless-elsif-else , conceptually you could have an elsunless to chain unlesses. 'unless' is an odd word.
02:28:16 <ais523> now I'm wondering why Perl doesn't allow else if as a special case, and invented a new keyword instead
02:30:23 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134934&oldid=134914 * PrySigneToFry * (+199)
02:30:56 <salpynx> oh, I just noticed you'd already made an elsunless comment above :)
02:33:05 <shachaf> ais523: I'm a little skeptical about the value of "truer than" in most of these contexts.
02:33:21 <shachaf> I talked about this with a friend and he pointed out that you can think of these as representing possible sets of values.
02:33:40 <shachaf> I.e. {false, true}, {false}, {true}
02:33:49 <ais523> I tried to write a for-else loop once but Rust wouldn't let me (I wanted the block at the end to provide a value if there was no break out of the for)
02:33:53 <shachaf> And I mean "sets of possible values".
02:33:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134935&oldid=134933 * PrySigneToFry * (+97)
02:34:48 <ais523> shachaf: it's basically a "declarative language boolean", right? unknown, true, false (and the "no possibility" possibility doesn't exist because that would trigger backtracking / pruning of that nondeterministic branch)
02:35:20 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by "declarative language".
02:35:26 <shachaf> Oh, you mean a logic language like Prolog.
02:35:53 <shachaf> Yes, that sounds sort of right, though in Prolog you can't explicitly test that something is unknown, right?
02:35:58 <ais523> yes – I think the term "declarative language" is more general but I was thinking of the ones that work using successively tighter constraints
02:36:20 <ais523> in a hypothetical pure Prolog you shouldn't be able to, almost all practical Prologs have some way to do it though
02:36:58 <ais523> IIRC even standard ISO Prolog has var/1 and nonvar/1
02:39:28 <shachaf> The monotonicity thing is generally important in all cases.
02:39:43 <shachaf> I mean, I think of these as write-once variables, that start in unknown state and then change state at most once.
02:39:54 <ais523> that's basically what a boolean is in Prolog
02:40:03 <ais523> you can't unassign it except by backtracking
02:42:07 <shachaf> This is also the SAT solver thing, of course.
02:42:24 <ais523> SAT solvers are also declarative
02:42:43 <ais523> now you've got me wondering about what a declarative language actually is
02:43:16 <ais523> I think the main defining feature is that the program specifies properties of the output it wants, without directly specifying an algorithm – and that normally gets implemented using mathematical nondeterminism but not always
02:45:43 <HackEso> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
02:46:54 <ais523> hmm, I think you can distinguish _ from true from false if you have cuts
02:47:20 <ais523> cut allows you to define not, then if not(not(X=true)) and not(not(X=false)) it must be _
02:47:37 <ais523> so I'm interested in what that cut-eliminates to
02:47:52 <ais523> the theorem must have some sort of set of Prolog builtins that are used to replace the cut
02:49:59 <korvo> miniKanren doesn't have cuts, and also doesn't have var/1 or equivalent.
02:50:15 <shachaf> I should clarify that the above is a joke, and may not actually hold.
02:50:22 <shachaf> Though I thought it did! So that's an interesting point.
02:50:27 <ais523> it probably does hold if you have enough builtins
02:50:37 <korvo> It's actually kind of annoying because gensym has to be hacked in somehow, whereas a Prolog implementation could check each variable and cut it off with a fresh gensym once.
02:50:45 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut-elimination_theorem
02:51:20 <ais523> which is about something else, of course
03:00:26 <ais523> now I have fallen into the side track of working out how people actually represent booleans in Prolog, when they need to, because true and false are both keywords that don't expand to boolean values
03:00:29 <ais523> I guess you could use t and f
03:00:54 <ais523> or, hmm, no, it's fail not false, and true might not be a keyword?
03:02:08 <ais523> I haven't written Prolog in so long
03:02:26 <ais523> I guess what I'm thinking about is, some interpreters use true versus false to specify whether your query succeeded or failed
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03:09:36 <korvo> Ugh, curious Brainfuck problem: is it easy to do succ (mod 2**n) for *small* n? Looking at Laver tables and I need to be able to do lots of (mod 8) and (mod 16); I could start at bigger n but the whole point is to search for (mod 32).
03:10:13 <korvo> ais523: Relationally (or homotopically, posetally, etc.) there's two different Booleans.
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03:10:31 <korvo> There's {t, f}. There's also {f → t}, with a single non-trivial arrow.
03:10:56 <korvo> If you want the former in Prolog then you use symbols. If you want the latter then you NAF and SIT.
03:11:07 <korvo> Er, Negation As Failure and Substitution Is Truth.
03:11:17 <ais523> korvo: I'm assuming you're talking about bignum brainfuck – mod 2**n is pretty easy when you have wrapping cells
03:11:49 <ais523> just store the numbers multiplied by a constant
03:11:58 <ais523> and let the wrapping handle the modulo for you
03:12:19 <ais523> with bignum brainfuck it's probably quite difficult, though
03:12:36 <korvo> ais523: That might work! The constant would slowly decrease to zero, at which point it would be ignorable.
03:12:58 <korvo> FWIW I'm looking at p2 of http://cheddarmonk.org/papers/laver.pdf
03:14:52 <korvo> I think I'm going to use wrapping Brainfuck for Busy Brains. I guess that bignums are beautiful? But for some reason, wrapping feels closer to the spirit of BB.
03:15:55 <ais523> fwiw, 1-bit wrapping is probably more elegant than 8-bit wrapping
03:16:15 <ais523> although, that might be a bit too close to a Turing Machine to be interesting
03:16:30 <korvo> Yep, you're reading my mind.
03:17:26 <korvo> Maybe Brainfuck isn't interesting enough? I dunno. Once I get bfmacro working, it should be easy to pound out some inefficient example programs, and that'll give us a sense of whether it's worthwhile.
03:25:10 <korvo> ...Okay, yeah, now I'm thinking that we have to study Brainfuck as a perfectoid system; there's bignum BF and also all the p-adic BFs.
03:25:53 <korvo> Like, classical Brainfuck is merely the case of p=2, k=8. I'm convinced.
03:26:21 * korvo going to think of a better name than "Perfectoid Algebraic Brainfuck" before making a new page
03:38:12 <salpynx> i can see a maximally offensive intercalative blend for that, but that's probably not what you're striving for
03:45:28 <ais523> re: elegance in BF, I feel like limited tape length / unlimited cell size and unlimited tape length / limited cell size are both more elegant than the combinations with both limited or both unlimited
03:46:16 <ais523> I guess I don't like it when tarpits have extra power above what they need for TCness
03:46:28 <ais523> although, not always, e.g. Underload is probably more elegant with the unneccessary builtins
03:46:44 <ais523> and SKI combinator calculus conceptually "wants" the I even though it's just SKK
03:48:19 <korvo> salpynx: Nah, it's got reasons. "Perfectoid" is what Scholze calls this whole tower-of-p-adic-spaces with an infinite space on top. "Algebraic" is to get rid of all of the syntactic issues that would get in the way.
03:50:02 <korvo> Like, for any positive k, let `+k` be `+` k times, and then `+k[-]` halts in any of the flavors we're discussing, including bignum. This is trivial if we've algebraically identified `[-]` with the operation which zeros the current cell in any flavor.
03:50:20 <korvo> But sure, as usual, feel free to make monstrosities.
03:52:32 <korvo> ais523: I do think that SKI is a sweet spot in terms of breadth vs depth. The one-combinator bases are known (Jot, Iota, Meredith's bases) but derivations are always way deeper just by a counting argument.
03:52:47 <korvo> (You know this. As usual, when talking to you, I'm talking to the channel.)
04:03:30 <ais523> hmm, is it possible to consistently/rigorously define the bignum-BF variant in which -[-] terminates (having wrapped the cell value around the entire infinite number line and back to 0)?
04:04:14 <ais523> my guess is no, assuming that we want all programs that halt regardless of the cell size to also halt with bignums
04:04:41 <ais523> or at least, yes in terms of being able to define the language mathematically but no in terms of implementing it on a Turing machine
04:04:42 <korvo> You gotta believe~ So, at first blush, no; it only converges (mod p**k), a very light version of Hensel's lemma.
04:05:19 <korvo> But if you believe that F1, the field with one element, is a real thing... F1 would be the finite field upon which you could do (mod 1) shenanigans legitimately.
04:06:55 <ais523> I realised fairly recently that mod-0 is most consistently defined as the identity function, which would in turn imply that floor-division of a nonzero number by 0 returns 0
04:07:43 <ais523> although maybe the "0" here is actually a misidentified infinity
04:08:17 <korvo> Right, that's kind of the big question: are characteristic zero fields actually going off to some point-at-infinity, some divergence, or some looping-around?
04:50:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DKoTechnology * New user account
04:56:26 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134936&oldid=134902 * Gggfr * (+44) /* how it works */
05:02:50 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134937&oldid=134859 * PrySigneToFry * (-454)
05:06:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134938&oldid=134934 * Unname4798 * (-199) Replaced content with "meow"
05:09:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134939&oldid=134846 * Gggfr * (+380)
05:12:36 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134940&oldid=134810 * Gggfr * (+29) /* tips */
05:13:00 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134941&oldid=134940 * Gggfr * (-42) /* examples */
05:22:24 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134942 * Gggfr * (+496) Created page with "'''why tho''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] and is inspired by [[Lambda calculus]] and [[Fractran]]. == How it works == the start of the program is a two lambda calculus expressions(the first one is x and the second one is x) each encased by square brackets. t
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05:25:19 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134944&oldid=134943 * Gggfr * (+29)
05:30:02 <zzo38> The "Concrete Mathematics" book also says that mod 0 should be defined as a identity function
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05:31:03 <zzo38> It does not mention floor-division of a nonzero number by zero making zero, although in uxn, division by zero is defined to make zero, whether the first number is zero or nonzero
05:31:53 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/Test]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134945 * Unname4798 * (+910) Created page with "You can see block details at [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist&action=raw User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]. hello. im a soldier, and esolang war 2 just sparked. if youve got any questions, ask em here. == Appeal the re
05:36:26 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/About Sandbox War]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134946 * PrySigneToFry * (+2640) Created page with "<span style="font-family:serif;color:black;font-size:60px;text-align:center;">Sandbox War<span> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::Written by --[[User:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:blue;background:yellow;">Pry</span>]][[User talk:PrySigneTo
05:37:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134947&oldid=134938 * PrySigneToFry * (+38)
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05:52:23 <int-e> ais523: how does x - (x div 0) * 0 = x mod 0 = x imply anything about x div 0?
05:53:12 <int-e> (IMO it's quite reasonable to define `x mod 0 = x` and still leave `x div 0` undefined)
06:09:23 <ais523> I forgot about the multiplication by 0
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06:36:42 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134950&oldid=134944 * Gggfr * (+118)
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06:39:11 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134951&oldid=134898 * Ducbadatchem * (+4168) add some things, still incomplete
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07:11:27 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134954&oldid=134951 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Comments */ Fix tag
07:12:38 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134955&oldid=134953 * Gggfr * (+4) /* How it works */
07:16:44 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134956&oldid=134955 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Categories
07:21:11 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134957&oldid=134924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) Stub, categories
07:25:53 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134958&oldid=134956 * Gggfr * (+23)
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08:03:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134961&oldid=95246 * Gggfr * (+162) /* Python Interpreter */
08:05:08 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134962&oldid=134960 * Ractangle * (+69)
08:06:30 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134963&oldid=134962 * Ractangle * (+56)
08:08:38 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134964&oldid=134959 * Gggfr * (+185) /* simple example */
08:08:50 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134965&oldid=134964 * Gggfr * (+1) /* se also */
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08:17:43 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134967&oldid=134963 * Ractangle * (+84) /* Examples */
08:21:51 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134968&oldid=134506 * Ractangle * (-24) /* Esolangs */
08:23:00 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134969&oldid=134515 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Deadfish implementation */
08:26:48 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134970&oldid=134967 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Sub-words */
08:28:58 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134971&oldid=134765 * Ractangle * (+18) /* See also */
08:40:52 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134972&oldid=134966 * Gggfr * (+91) /* computational class */
08:50:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Shell]] to [[User:Ractangle/Shell]]
08:50:15 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Shell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134975&oldid=134973 * Ractangle * (-13)
08:50:39 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134976&oldid=134968 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Esolangs */
08:51:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[]] to [[User:Ractangle/]]
08:51:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134979&oldid=134977 * Ractangle * (-53)
08:51:55 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134980&oldid=134976 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Esolangs */
09:05:44 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134981&oldid=134811 * 5anz * (+11) /* Doing it by hand... again. */
09:06:52 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134982&oldid=134981 * 5anz * (+13) /* Esolang I made */
09:08:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:5anz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134983 * 5anz * (+24) Created page with "Ask me questions here :)"
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09:56:45 <wib_jonas> "grey area, such as future solar eclipses" hehe, I hadn't noticed this pun yesterday
10:17:30 <wib_jonas> "how you can do the 1==2 in Rust […] but it looks massively suspicious" => if Rust ever implements the equivalent of the Haskell extension where numeric literals can be of any type constructed by some trait method rather than only built-in numeric types then you'll be able to do this in a somewhat less suspicious way.
10:18:37 <wib_jonas> Of course that's more difficult than in Haskell because Rust doesn't have a built-in bigint type, so the trait function would need to be a custom one that parses a string to a number, rather than just converts a number from some built-in type.
10:26:15 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134984&oldid=134972 * Xff * (+41) /* computational class */
10:41:18 <wib_jonas> "a conceptually esoteric language with sensible readable keywords" => it doesn't happen often because most esolangs have few builtin features. Keywords are much more useful when you have a hundred builtin features and you don't want to represent all of them with punctuation. But when your language is like brainfuck or underload with just eight
10:41:18 <wib_jonas> builtins, and source code is typed in full ASCII rather than punched in some very limited EBCDIC set, then it's easier to just use eight distinct punctuation marks for the eight builtins.
10:44:31 <wib_jonas> “‘found languages’, i.e. things that turned out to be usable as programming languages despite not being intended that way” => hmm, does Amycus count?
10:45:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134985&oldid=134913 * Unname4798 * (-46) Esolang Sandbox Preservation War ended on August 3.
10:49:29 <wib_jonas> ais523 "I haven't seen an esolang with an if-else-then statement" => https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo has both if-then-else and if-else-then. and IIRC think Slang has if and unless like perl does, though it spells unless differently.
10:49:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mugh brains]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134986&oldid=133271 * 5anz * (+140) /* How do I use this? */ new section
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10:59:23 <wib_jonas> ais523 "for-else loop […] I wanted the block at the end to provide a value if there was no break out of the for" => yeah, for-else and while-else could be useful, python has that feature. I faintly remember that some programming language spoiled it by assigning a different and less useful semantics to it.
11:03:47 <wib_jonas> "declarative language" => we had a university course titled "declarative programming" which teaches prolog and Standard ML, so I assumed it mostly meant the same as functional programming
11:04:17 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134987&oldid=134970 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Words */
11:09:18 <wib_jonas> "how people actually represent booleans in Prolog" => Olvasható represents them with the terms tru and fals, except in most cases the term is optimized out and the boolean only appears as a success/failure that we dispatch on with => . You could represent them with the terms true and false because then you can just execute a boolean term to get
11:09:56 <wib_jonas> false and fail are equivalent as predicates in Prolog
11:12:23 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134988&oldid=134419 * Itoh Shimon * (+24) /* Specifications */
11:18:39 <wib_jonas> s/dispatch with =>/dispatch with ->/
11:39:38 <wib_jonas> apparently ruby has unless-else too, no surprise since it copied a lot of that from perl
11:41:23 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134989&oldid=134987 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Sub-words */
11:42:14 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134990&oldid=134877 * Ducbadatchem * (+1368) Added ARMLite implementation
11:42:16 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134991&oldid=134989 * Ractangle * (+52) /* Examples */
11:43:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134992&oldid=134865 * Ducbadatchem * (+14) Added ARMLite entry
11:56:34 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134993&oldid=134991 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Hello, world! */
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12:06:36 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134994&oldid=134912 * Ractangle * (+98) /* TernLSB */
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13:13:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:SpoilerFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134995 * 5anz * (+181) Created page with "==What?== I can't help but think the name "'''<span class="spoiler">Fuck</span>'''" was just for this wiki. -~~~~"
13:16:55 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134996&oldid=134802 * 5anz * (+5) /* Fake 0 */
13:17:38 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134997&oldid=134990 * Ducbadatchem * (+59) /* ARMLite */
13:18:54 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134998&oldid=134954 * Ducbadatchem * (+1494) Added Deadfish implementation link + some commands
13:33:41 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134999&oldid=134984 * Xff * (+40)
13:50:46 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135000&oldid=134993 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Sub-words */
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14:39:43 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135001&oldid=134941 * Xff * (+4) /* examples */
14:58:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ThatAH * New user account
15:01:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135002&oldid=134820 * ThatAH * (+287) /* Introductions */
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15:25:42 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135003 * ThatAH * (+37) Created page with "Creator of Digital and yeah, yapping."
15:28:07 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135004&oldid=134111 * RainbowDash * (+15)
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15:51:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ducbadatchem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135005 * Ducbadatchem * (+104) i use arch btw
16:16:50 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135006 * ThatAH * (+3598) Created page with "'''Digital''' is an [[Esoteric programming language|esolang]] created by [[User:ThatAH]]. It is similar in some ways to [[Unary]] but is intended to be more practical. Digital only uses ten instructions, the numbers of the base-10 system, where it derives it's name from
16:17:51 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135007&oldid=135006 * ThatAH * (-6) Fixed the code tags overflowing the page.
16:19:27 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135008&oldid=135007 * ThatAH * (+0) Miner semantic change.
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16:25:27 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135009&oldid=135003 * ThatAH * (+96)
16:25:48 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135010&oldid=135009 * ThatAH * (+4)
16:26:16 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135011&oldid=135010 * ThatAH * (+1)
16:29:25 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135012&oldid=135008 * ThatAH * (-1)
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16:59:22 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135013&oldid=134884 * Ractangle * (+49) /* This esolang is not a push-down automata */
17:01:02 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135014&oldid=128070 * Ractangle * (+81) /* Text */
17:04:16 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135015&oldid=134980 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Other things */
17:07:44 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135016&oldid=134609 * Ractangle * (+44) /* Text */
17:12:50 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135017&oldid=130820 * Ractangle * (-565) /* Language specifications */
17:14:30 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135018&oldid=135017 * Ractangle * (-20)
17:17:05 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135019&oldid=135018 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Implementations */
17:17:53 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135020&oldid=132593 * Ractangle * (+1) /* + */
17:18:24 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135021&oldid=135020 * Ractangle * (+4) /* - */
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18:15:23 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135022&oldid=131361 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Example(s) */
18:17:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135023&oldid=131399 * Ractangle * (+130)
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20:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135024&oldid=134985 * Tommyaweosme * (-2)
20:09:21 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135025 * Tommyaweosme * (+1510) Created page with "Better Burn is [[Burn]] but better. It was created as a child of the war between ~~~ and [[User:Ais523]]. == Commands == ;Colours given as BG, levels 0-3. 00 00 01 00 00 00 10 11 01 01 (digits 3 and 2 of wolfram rule in order) (first two digits of wolfram
20:09:33 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135026&oldid=135025 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
20:14:46 <korvo> Protip: Don't say that you're at "war" with moderation. If you absolutely must take such a stance, be clear that you "disagree" with "decisions" made by moderators, but that you nonetheless "respect" what they do.
20:16:14 <korvo> There's no problem with being openly contemptuous of management as long as you're productive and courteous. Find a mindset that can both despise people and also ensure that they are comfortable and well-fed.
20:16:51 <korvo> But don't start shitting all over personal notes or personal connections unless you're prepared for a dramatic increase in intimacy and severity of consequences.
20:56:30 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135027&oldid=131616 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Commands */
20:59:33 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135028&oldid=135027 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Commands */
20:59:59 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135029&oldid=135028 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello, world! */
21:00:31 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135030&oldid=135029 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Cat program */
21:01:46 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135031&oldid=135030 * Ractangle * (+18) /* A+B Problem */
21:13:47 <zzo38> One thing to consider about esoteric programming languages vs not esoteric programming languages, is PostScript, which has been described as both at the same time (I don't know who described it as such; I think I was not the first to do so; do you know?)
21:40:49 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/rt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135032&oldid=130989 * Ractangle * (-69) /* Examples */
21:42:53 <esolangs> [[Shape-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135033&oldid=131863 * Ractangle * (-75)
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