00:03:35 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:06:04 -!- mtm has joined.
00:15:59 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
00:18:33 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
00:35:34 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523 non-admin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135034&oldid=54324 * Ais523 * (+89) update
00:41:28 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-maybefalsepositive-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135035&oldid=49596 * Ais523 * (+29) mention "Introduce yourself" in all the abuse filter warnings that can be fixed like that
00:42:24 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135036&oldid=35728 * Ais523 * (-6) mention "Introduce yourself" in all the abuse filter warnings that can be fixed like that
00:57:44 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
01:11:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135037&oldid=134483 * Tommyaweosme * (+249) /* Better Burn */ new section
01:15:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135038&oldid=135037 * Ais523 * (+235) /* Better Burn */ language is mostly unrelated
01:26:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135039&oldid=134949 * PrySigneToFry * (+221)
01:27:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:28:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:54:54 -!- salpynx has joined.
02:03:44 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
02:04:17 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
02:05:14 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
02:07:51 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
02:26:59 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135040&oldid=134998 * Ducbadatchem * (+86)
03:00:48 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:09:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:10:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
03:56:48 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135041&oldid=118887 * BoundedBeans * (+28) Clarified "reflection is fine"
04:00:13 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135042&oldid=135041 * BoundedBeans * (+156) Fixed explanation of line continuations' effect on the 2d language
04:04:11 <korvo> Hm. So, I started out today thinking that universality has a bad interaction with encodings. If one gives a UTM, then it's likely very sensitive to the input encoding for the TM under emulation, which could be a problem for any sort of gauge or comparison.
04:05:00 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135043&oldid=135042 * BoundedBeans * (+84) Added "@IG/X" comments
04:05:56 <korvo> But maybe it's even worse, in a way that makes it okay. Universality covers an entire class of languages, so giving a UTM is relative to an encoder for the entire class. But usually every number decodes to some class member, so universality kind of works in our favor by letting us ignore which class we used.
04:08:47 <korvo> IOW what we want to gauge is the point (or curve, for multivariable functions like BB) where universality is known to be (im)possible. Doesn't matter which flavor of universality.
04:08:50 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135044&oldid=135043 * BoundedBeans * (+232) Added code tags
04:09:38 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135045&oldid=135044 * BoundedBeans * (+0) Changed "2d" to "2D"
04:11:04 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135046&oldid=134282 * BoundedBeans * (+78) Genewrath summary
04:13:39 <esolangs> [[Harmonii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135047&oldid=131433 * BoundedBeans * (+41) Clarification edit and adding "instead" where it belongs
04:33:09 <ais523> korvo: right, I think the way universality is defined is "any Turing machine can be encoded into an input for this UTM which causes the UTM to implement the Turing machine", with some restrictions on how much power the encoder is allowed
04:33:18 <ais523> (e.g. the encoder isn't allowed to contain a halting oracle, for obvious reasons)
04:34:15 <ais523> exactly how much power you can put in the encoder is disputed and has lead to lots of controversy in the past, although "the encoder is primitive recursive" is considered by most people to be a sufficient condition for the encoder to be acceptable (although not all of them think it's necessary)
04:34:39 <ais523> if you are just dealing with "is this universal" / "is this non-universal" then the complexity of the encoder and the size of the encoded programs don't really matter
04:34:50 <korvo> ais523: Right. The technicalities were blinding md to the obvious concept that I can't complain about the choice of emulated language *or* encoding; they don't matter for expressive power (WLOG it's TC, duh) and don't matter for undecidability.
04:34:56 <ais523> but if you're dealing with busy-beaver-like programs they suddenly become relevant
04:35:13 <korvo> Er, *don't matter for undecidability in terms of decidable-vs-universal, like you say.
04:35:51 <korvo> Right, for Beaver candidates, it matters. For establishing the gauge against which to weigh Beaver candidates, it *doesn't* matter.
04:35:54 <ais523> I suspect it's probably also the case that any for UTM, and any TC language, you can write an encoder for that UTM/language pair
04:36:34 <ais523> this is almost trivial, but the proof breaks down in the situation where the encoder is not capable of producing any sort of literal (e.g. string or numeric literal) that the UTM is able to understand
04:36:58 <ais523> and that could potentially happen in cases where the UTM is really weird and the encoder has low power
04:37:00 <esolangs> [[Onione]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135048&oldid=129346 * BoundedBeans * (+162) Added DO:TEN to make programming more possible
04:38:56 <ais523> (imagine a language which is basically "Ackermann-encoded Unary", i.e. you take a Unary program but perform the Ackermann function on the unary number it represents, and that's your language – then imagine a self-interpreter for that language, it's universal but a primitive recursive encoder can't encode most normal languages into it because it can't generate a string long enough)
04:41:16 <ais523> now I am thinking about busy-beaver-encoded unary
04:41:55 <ais523> in order to encode a unary program of length n, you must encode it to the nth busy beaver number
04:42:05 <ais523> I think this is probably on the wiki already, I vaguely remember reading it, but forget what it's called
04:42:08 <korvo> (Conversely, doesn't most of what we want come from the fact that a decoder can't reject input at the machine level? It has to do *something* for an input program, and becoming stuck is a something.)
04:43:04 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Language_That_Explodes
04:43:05 <korvo> That would be one way to encode a Halting oracle. Very straightforward, TBH.
04:43:09 <ais523> not only is it on the wiki already, I invented it
04:45:11 <ais523> and right, TLTE has a trivial halting oracle, and is computable, and can implement any Turing machine
04:45:25 <ais523> and yet it is entirely useless because the program encoding step involves a halting oracle
04:47:08 <ais523> in addition to the philosophical questions with the encoder, there is also a "halt detector" which has similar problems – the program that looks at the execution of the UTM and decides when it's halted
04:47:20 <ais523> although at least that one is usually easy to work around by giving the UTM a halt transition
04:48:04 <ais523> for the (2,3) Turing machine proof I eventually found a way to get it to halt by going off the end of a semi-infinite tape, but I wasn't able to get the encoder down to a level of simplicity that everyone was happy with
04:54:16 <korvo> Yeah. Both the halt detector and exploding language are "degree zero", at least. Or is it "degree one"? It's the first degree above computability.
04:54:47 <korvo> I'm still grappling with Beeping BB being genuinely another degree up. Like, even an oracle for Halting wouldn't let us compute Beeping.
04:56:14 <ais523> I think a beeping TM is comparable to a TM with a halting oracle – the difference is that the halting oracle returns by halting the program if the program it's scanning doesn't halt, which might make it less powerful than a TM equipped with a normal halting oracle
04:56:26 <ais523> but this means that a halting oraclce for normal TMs won't work on a beeping TM
04:57:51 <korvo> It's also that the oracle can't say anything about state transitions in the non-halting case. A non-halting TM could take quite a while to get around to beeping.
05:01:03 <korvo> ...Wait, that doesn't make any sense. I think I've gotten to the part of the evening where I'm just openly incorrect.
05:01:16 <ais523> I've been hitting that part of the evening way too often recently
05:01:21 <ais523> it sort-of makes me scared to say anything at all
05:02:19 <korvo> If only we weren't at the frontier of hard maths. Also, look how many other folks were wrong before us. It's our sacred duty to stand on their shoulders and, as Weird Al put it, dare to be stupid~
05:05:37 <ais523> I guess I see maths as being like logic/declarative programming languages: you start with a large pile of "I don't know", and gradually learn more about it and become able to fill in parts that you do know, but avoiding any actual wrong information
05:05:38 <korvo> But TBH I should probably just go to bed. Just as soon as this script works right. Trying to automatically count BF program size is a little tricky because a bit of optimization is required to remove comments and platform-detection idioms.
05:08:41 <korvo> Ah, for sure. I'm wrong a lot, and I've just kind of gotten used to it emotionally, but maybe that's not a good approach to recommend to other folks.
05:09:33 -!- dawids has joined.
05:11:32 <korvo> I dunno. On one wolf, I know that it's important to maintain academic humility and work hard to be open to new information. And on the other wolf, I can't help but notice that the average person is not nearly so rigorous.
05:12:57 <ais523> I am fairly convinced that I am too perfectionist – but worried that if I try to correct that, I will end up not perfectionist enough by an extent that leaves me worse off overall
05:17:15 -!- dawids_ has joined.
05:19:43 -!- dawids has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:22:18 -!- fowl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:47:35 -!- dawids_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:48:16 <esolangs> [[Unary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135049&oldid=131494 * ThatAH * (+15)
06:50:52 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135050&oldid=135012 * ThatAH * (+134)
07:06:56 <esolangs> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135051&oldid=135049 * B jonas * (+33) /* See also */
07:13:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:17:15 <b_jonas> somehow Unary is reinvented occasionally, there are at least four pages describing very similar languages on the esowiki, always using brainfuck, though Unary is the oldest. I thought there was one that's one or two exponentials above Unary, but I can't find it right now, so I may have been imagining it. I don't think I've seen ackermann or anything growing that fast.
07:26:05 -!- tromp has joined.
07:40:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:51:00 <ais523> I have been meaning to make a version of Lenguage based on Jelly or some other similar powerful golfing language, to increase the chance that the programs are actually storable
07:51:33 <ais523> but never got around to it, partly because I was considering putting it as part of some big overengineered project that never actually happened
08:05:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
09:22:07 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
09:23:22 <wib_jonas> "increase the chance that the programs are actually storable" => it would be easier if you don't store the program explicitly but generate it dynamically and pipe it into the interpreter. just make sure to call the magical system call that increases the storage capacity of the pipe if you're on Windows (or old Linux).
09:24:53 <wib_jonas> I've sent raw video files through pipes this way, generated by decompressing a compressed video file, so I know this works
09:48:32 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135052&oldid=134708 * TheMCoder * (+652)
09:49:02 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135053&oldid=135052 * TheMCoder * (-1) /* python code: */
09:52:31 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/BB thoughts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135054 * Salpynx * (+2726) thoughts on busy beaver, and encoding by Turing machines (in progress)
10:12:43 <esolangs> [[HsifdaeD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135055&oldid=120292 * Ducbadatchem * (+765) Added Python interpreter
10:48:20 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed).
10:49:56 -!- FreeFull has joined.
11:06:09 -!- X-Scale has joined.
11:09:28 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
11:09:35 -!- amby has joined.
11:28:48 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135056&oldid=135031 * Ractangle * (+132) /* Commands */
11:29:03 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135057&oldid=135056 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Commands */
11:30:12 -!- X-Scale90 has joined.
11:31:59 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135058&oldid=135057 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Other implementations */
11:32:55 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:34:58 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135059&oldid=135058 * Ractangle * (+15) /* Infinite loop */
11:37:44 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135060&oldid=133900 * Ractangle * (-30)
11:38:01 -!- X-Scale90 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:46:00 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135061&oldid=134922 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:47:21 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135062&oldid=134997 * Ractangle * (-14) /* G# */
11:49:57 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135063&oldid=135053 * TheMCoder * (+176) /* python code: */
11:52:16 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135064&oldid=135063 * TheMCoder * (+0) /* Overview */
11:54:44 <esolangs> [[User:TheMCoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135065 * TheMCoder * (+64) Created page with "I am TheMCoder. === My inventions === [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]]"
11:55:54 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135066&oldid=135064 * TheMCoder * (+45)
11:56:30 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135067&oldid=135066 * TheMCoder * (-26)
11:57:49 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135068&oldid=135067 * TheMCoder * (+3) /* Overview */
12:03:43 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:05:41 -!- mtm has joined.
12:19:08 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135069&oldid=135000 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Words */
12:29:25 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135070&oldid=135069 * Ractangle * (-30) /* Hello, world! */
12:30:05 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135071&oldid=135070 * Ractangle * (+10) /* A+B Problem */
12:31:26 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135072&oldid=135071 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Sub-words */
12:35:48 -!- X-Scale has joined.
12:55:05 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
13:30:26 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed).
13:51:22 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135073&oldid=135060 * Unname4798 * (+133)
13:52:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135074&oldid=135073 * Unname4798 * (+61)
13:52:52 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135075&oldid=135074 * Unname4798 * (+1)
13:56:06 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:59:58 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
14:19:30 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135076&oldid=135026 * Unname4798 * (+0)
14:21:41 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135077&oldid=135076 * Unname4798 * (+1)
14:28:21 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135078 * Unname4798 * (+300) Created page with "Shorter code Burn is a vriant of [[Burn]]. == Commands == [Wolfram rule number to emulate here] == Examples == Wolfram rule 110: 110 == Computational class == Shorter code Burn is Turing complete, because it can emulate rule 110. [[Category:Languages]] [[Ca
14:28:49 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135079&oldid=134685 * Unname4798 * (+48)
14:29:01 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135080&oldid=135078 * Unname4798 * (+1) fix typo
14:29:24 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135081&oldid=135080 * Unname4798 * (+1) use indentation for monospace font
14:34:33 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135082&oldid=135081 * Unname4798 * (+7) Better Burn can simulate all 256 rules
14:44:54 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135083&oldid=134863 * PrySigneToFry * (+66)
14:48:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135084&oldid=135039 * Tommyaweosme * (-104)
14:55:49 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135085 * Tommyaweosme * (+488) Created page with "<span style="color:skyblue">tommy</span><span style="color:royalblue">aweosme</span> <span style="color:red">unname</span><span style="color:orange>4798</span> ais<span style="color:magenta">5</span><span style="color:blue">2</span><span style
15:02:23 <esolangs> [[Brainmaze]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135086 * Tommyaweosme * (+426) Created page with "Brainmaze is a maze solver that also executes brainfuck code. It turns right every time it hits a wall. <pre>=</pre> is subtract instead of <pre>-</pre> Same with: = - > } < { The pointer is v^<> == Ascii loop == |---| |>.+| | | |---| This is the only
15:03:26 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/tabs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135087 * Tommyaweosme * (+105) Created page with "[[User:Tommyaweosme|user]] - [[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]] - [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist|esolang list]]"
15:03:39 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135088&oldid=135084 * Tommyaweosme * (+28)
15:03:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135089&oldid=135024 * Tommyaweosme * (+28)
15:16:18 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135090&oldid=135088 * Unname4798 * (-34) revert this page to the revision by [[User:Tommyaweosme|<span style="color:SkyBlue;">tommy</span>]][[User talk:Tommyaweosme|<span style="color:RoyalBlue;">aweosme</span>]]
15:16:34 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135091 * Tommyaweosme * (+1396) Created page with "# [[directionation]] june 3 # [[driftdown]] june 4 # [[BFshort]] june 4 # [[ulsl]] june 4 # [[slimey]] june 5 # [[cocomelon]] june 5 # [[tc2]] june 5 # [[2025]] june 5 # [[lunchable]] june 6 # [[coolfudge]] june 6 # [[TAbrain]] june 7 # [[coolbean
15:18:51 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135092&oldid=135079 * Unname4798 * (+61) dates
15:19:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135093&oldid=135091 * Tommyaweosme * (+13) fixing redlinks
15:19:15 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135094&oldid=135093 * Tommyaweosme * (+27)
15:27:45 -!- X-Scale has joined.
15:30:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135095&oldid=130287 * Unname4798 * (+197) v1.1 adds Unicode support and infinite dimensions
15:32:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135096&oldid=135085 * Unname4798 * (+212)
15:37:00 <esolangs> [[Brainmaze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135097&oldid=135086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) Categories
15:38:09 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135098&oldid=135095 * Unname4798 * (+14) Correct commands in the legacy version (V1.0)
15:39:49 <esolangs> [[Brainmaze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135099&oldid=135097 * Unname4798 * (+0) update ascii loop
15:40:18 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135100&oldid=135077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) See also
15:41:41 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:43:23 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135101&oldid=135092 * Unname4798 * (+18) number a list
15:53:04 <korvo> Contemplating {{infobox bf variant}}. Kind of hoping that somebody's already done it and it's just not widely used.
16:51:46 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135102&oldid=135072 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Cat program */
16:54:31 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135103&oldid=135102 * Ractangle * (+4) /* A+B Problem */
16:55:24 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135104&oldid=135103 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello, world! */
17:03:46 -!- X-Scale has joined.
17:09:49 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:12:03 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135105&oldid=135098 * Tommyaweosme * (-194) v1.1 is not official please dont add it
17:15:44 -!- X-Scale44 has joined.
17:18:01 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:18:53 -!- tromp has joined.
17:28:53 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:33:49 -!- tromp has joined.
17:54:28 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135106&oldid=134793 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Commands */
17:54:52 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135107&oldid=135106 * Ractangle * (-100) /* Commands */
18:23:07 -!- X-Scale44 has quit (Quit: Client closed).
18:42:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/Shell]] to [[LJAPL]]
18:44:48 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135110&oldid=135108 * Ractangle * (-498)
18:48:30 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135111&oldid=135110 * Ractangle * (+82)
19:00:40 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135112&oldid=135111 * Ractangle * (+171)
19:01:11 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135113&oldid=135015 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Esolangs */
19:06:40 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135114&oldid=134649 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Deadfish implementation */
19:07:09 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135115&oldid=135062 * Ractangle * (-18) /* CLFCE */
19:07:27 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135116&oldid=135114 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Deadfish implementation */
19:19:05 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135117&oldid=135116 * Ractangle * (-59) /* Block-CLFCE */
19:20:33 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135118&oldid=135117 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Block-CLFCE */
19:21:02 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135119&oldid=135118 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Block-CLFCE */
19:21:54 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135120&oldid=135119 * Ractangle * (+6)
19:26:18 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135121&oldid=135120 * Ractangle * (+18)
19:26:33 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135122&oldid=135121 * Ractangle * (+1)
19:27:05 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135123&oldid=135122 * Ractangle * (+3)
19:27:26 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135124&oldid=135123 * Ractangle * (-22)
19:35:01 -!- X-Scale has joined.
19:48:57 <esolangs> [[Ironlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135125&oldid=127434 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Examples */
20:06:19 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:22:14 -!- salpynx has joined.
20:22:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135126&oldid=135038 * Tommyaweosme * (+226) /* Better Burn */
20:29:31 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135127 * Tommyaweosme * (+687) Created page with "{{lowercase}} ''Please discuss theories about this in the talk page of my-new-esolang.txt'' my-new-esolang.txt is an esolang that was rescued from an old hard drive in August 6, 2024 by [[User:Tommyaweosme]]. The hard drive was of his, but unfortunately h
20:29:43 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135128&oldid=135127 * Tommyaweosme * (+1)
20:30:21 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135129&oldid=135090 * Tommyaweosme * (+34) remember what they did on conwaylife?
20:30:53 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135130&oldid=135094 * Tommyaweosme * (+52)
20:31:13 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135131&oldid=135128 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) grammar
20:59:25 <salpynx> ais523: can you remember whether Burn was meant to be TC? From looking at it in the past I'd assumed it wasn't obviously TC. It might be TC somehow, but certainly not via that rule 110 tiling.
20:59:33 <salpynx> It just struck me that knowing whether it was designed to be TC via a weakly-universal construction would reveal how complex the tiling deformation had to be. Specifically, there would have to be a infinite right tiling of some part, and an infinite left tiling of a different part.
20:59:46 <salpynx> Currently I'd assumed from the example there has to be a tiling deformation to do anything interesting, but only simple enough to get a single clean ON cell to run a vanilla rule110 from the most basic start seed. (i.e. Nothing to do with TCness.)
21:01:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:02:14 <ais523> salpynx: I believe a) the Burn language itself is TC, but b) the example program is not a demonstration of that
21:02:46 <ais523> as in, that rule 110 interpreter doesn't prove TCness, but it would have been possible to demonstrate TCness using a different program
21:04:37 <salpynx> Thanks, that confirms the basic assumptions I made. I hadn't given much thought to how it might be TC, just on running a basic r110.
21:05:45 <ais523> I do vaguely remember that implementing a (more complex) cellular automaton seemed like the best path to make a TCness proof, so i picked the first nontrivial one that came to mind as a proof of concept
21:06:43 <ais523> or, at this point it's not so much a memory as a reconstruction based on available evidence and what I know of my own personality
21:07:52 <salpynx> I did notice the recent 'I wonder if there a language like that on the wiki..' comment :) (I relate to that too, coming up with the same idea multiple times)
21:07:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:08:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:09:46 <korvo> salpynx: I noticed your BB page. Cool idea! Looking forward to more. A couple authors have built similar inequalities, and I think eventually we'll want to play Snakes & Ladders with them in some sort of automatic solver.
21:10:11 <ais523> I think salpynx's BB page is basically a proof of "busy beavers are incompressible", which makes sense when you think about it but which I hadn't noticed before
21:12:26 <salpynx> Thanks for checking it makes some kind of sense, it was me condensing my thoughts on null programs I started in the channel. I didn't mention null programs once on that page, but it's the same idea.
21:12:34 <ais523> that said, by a counting argument, it only excludes about half the machines even if you have a theoretically perfect decompression algorithm built into the interpreter – the number of possible compressed representations is less than half the number of possible programs, so the other half have to be incompressible
21:13:19 <ais523> however, it "intuitively" excludes just about every program constructed by hand – those tend to follow patterns that make compressing them easier
21:14:35 <ais523> on Code Golf Stack Exchange, there was a competition where programs in the competition took it in turns to delete bytes from each other, and the winner was the last to crash – so writing a program was a combination of tolerance to byte deletions, and trying to work out where the meaningful code in the opponents' program was (i.e. the code that was critical and deleting it would break it)
21:14:36 <salpynx> korvo: is there an existing proof that bb numbers must be strictly increasing?
21:15:14 <ais523> and I won that by implementing a compression algorithm, and deleting whatever character produced the most compressible result – it was very good at finding the meaningful cod
21:15:43 <ais523> salpynx: for Turing machines, yes, because you can have unused states – in the general case I believe the answer is no (e.g. take Lenguage as a stupid special case of that)
21:15:47 <korvo> salpynx: I can think of a couple handwaves that they must increase in both n and k, but I don't know if there's a rigorous proof in the literature.
21:16:51 <korvo> It's as ais523 said for states. For symbols, I think that you have to show that a symbol could be unused, which might require remapping some states with an NP-hard recoloring problem.
21:17:27 <ais523> symbols are more difficult unless you have a "stay in place" transition in which case it's trivial
21:19:05 <korvo> Another way of showing BBs champs are incompressible is via Kolmogorov-Chaitin; suppose not, then any compressor would squeeze bits of Chaitin's omega from any such champ.
21:20:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry about my connection).
21:20:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:20:51 <ais523> you can almost prove it for symbols by saying "run the same way until you would halt, then replace the halt transition with a write of the new symbol, then have all the transition rules for the new symbol halt"
21:21:09 <korvo> I do think that the inelegance of the BB champs found so far is suggestive of this. Encoding 3x+1 is straightforward; picking a small starting point that makes 3x+1 go for a long time is tricky. It's Kolmogorov-unlikely that a BB champ based on this would have an elegant starting point.
21:21:25 <ais523> but that isn't quite correct because it isn't 100% obvious that there's a transition you can replace the halt transition with which will ever get back to the same cell on the tape, even though you have a free choice of states to enter and directions to move the tape head in
21:22:18 <salpynx> I had a feeling I was probably saying something that had already been said before about compressibility. With maths, it's probably better to aim to say things that are true, over things that are interesting.
21:22:47 <ais523> well, you can conjecture things that are interesting, as long as you don't claim that they're true without proof
21:24:18 <korvo> ais523: Here's an idea. What if we replace the 1RB convention with 2RB? Like, you have to write the extra symbol on your first move. And maybe all you do after that is move back and swap it back to 1 like intended, which I think you can always smuggle into the state space by reusing the new symbol later by *swapping* 1 and 2.
21:24:52 <korvo> That only gives a constant number of steps, and doesn't affect BB shift at all, but it'd be enough for now.
21:24:54 <ais523> korvo: I was considering that but couldn't make it work
21:25:18 <ais523> the problem is that 1RB isn't just the first transition of the program – it's the transition for state A and symbol 0
21:25:36 <ais523> and that can come up at other times later in the program too, when moving sideways might break the semantics
21:29:12 <korvo> Oh, yeah. I guess I have two thoughts. One has tape like 0[0]0 -> 02[0] -> 0[2]1 -> 00[1]. States are A, B, A, B.
21:29:59 <korvo> And another is like 0[0]0 -> 02[0] -> 0[2]0, states A, B, A, but after that, 1 and 2 are swapped.
21:31:00 <korvo> Oh! I see. Yeah, okay. Later in the program. Sorry, I get it now.
21:38:08 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:11:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
22:14:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:03:34 -!- salpynx has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:03:52 -!- salpynx has joined.
23:12:00 <esolangs> [[AnnoyStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135132&oldid=127197 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+215) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the AnnoyStack programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
23:14:05 <esolangs> [[AnnoyStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135133&oldid=135132 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+151) Added an example which prints the ASCII characters in ascending order of their codes.