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00:42:12 <ais523> so in an esolang project I'm working on, I've come across something that is incredibly monad-like, but it doesn't seem to be quite the same
00:42:56 <ais523> it has operations that correspond to Monad's >>= and return, but it doesn't quite obey all the monad laws (in particular, x >>= (\y. return y) does not necessarily return x)
00:43:12 <ais523> and it's used differently
00:43:38 <ais523> also return seems to take an extra argument sometimes
00:44:00 <ais523> an example is a type representing pairs of a value, and some metadata
00:45:02 <ais523> (mx, vx) >>= (my, vy) = (vx (my, vy)) -- which is meant to return a value that has metadata
00:45:06 <ais523> hmm, that return isn't quite right
00:45:47 <ais523> like, the idea is that you have two separate worlds: "raw" values; and "boxed" values which have the metadata
00:46:14 <ais523> boxed values operate on other boxed values by ignoring their own metadata
00:46:45 <ais523> and in order to lift a function up to a boxed function, you basically have to replace all its operations on unboxed values with operations on boxed values
00:46:56 <ais523> I still have not quite worked out all the details, clearly
00:47:11 <ais523> but I'm looking for a general pattern that a) accepts as many monads as possible, ideally all of them, and b) also supports this
00:59:30 <ais523> actually, I suspect that return doesn't exist and what it instead has is a way to define functions in terms of their apply pattern
01:00:03 <ais523> for example, \x f -> (f x) becomes \apply x f -> (apply f x), and that's what you pass to the equivalent of return
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02:06:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:HZ3funge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135340 * PrySigneToFry * (+603) /* About the command "" */ new section
02:11:43 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135341&oldid=135016 * PrySigneToFry * (+6)
02:36:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CPNK * New user account
02:44:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135342&oldid=135253 * CPNK * (+184) introducing myself :3
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04:52:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135343&oldid=135323 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
05:08:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135344&oldid=135343 * Pipythonmc * (-16) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/135343|135343]] by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]])
05:08:26 <user3456> Why do people keep on touching Tommyaweosme's user page
05:18:06 <korvo> I'm guessing that they're friends on Discord.
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05:38:32 <ais523> even so, given that Tommyaweosme seems to put up messages asking them to stop messing with the userpage, yet they do it anyway…
05:38:44 <ais523> I have already banned one of them from the page
05:50:11 <esolangs> [[Semafor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135345&oldid=135302 * Ttulka * (+562) add explanation of code
06:09:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135346&oldid=135075 * Unname4798 * (+215)
06:18:11 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135347&oldid=135346 * Unname4798 * (+252)
06:19:20 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135348&oldid=135347 * Unname4798 * (+4)
06:20:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135349&oldid=135348 * Unname4798 * (+28)
06:20:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135350&oldid=135349 * Unname4798 * (+1)
06:33:59 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135351&oldid=135350 * Ais523 * (-695) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ractangle|Ractangle]]
06:36:52 <int-e> . o O ( I foresee a couple of block for the User:Tommyawesome namespace in the near future. )
06:41:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135352&oldid=134882 * Ais523 * (+493) /* On sandbox */ ban extended to User:
06:41:41 <ais523> in theory, if an admin is doing their job correctly, their actions should be predictable to just about everyone
06:42:45 <int-e> Heh. Well I only learned that scoped blocks are even a thing this month. Err, last month.
06:42:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/copy of tommyaweosmes userpage]]": offtopic, and possible harassment (there is very little legitimate reason to back up someone else's userpage when it doesn't contain ontopic content)
06:43:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/Test]]": offtopic, and possible harassment (there is very little legitimate reason to back up someone else's userpage when it doesn't contain ontopic content)
06:43:43 <ais523> int-e: I think it's a pretty new feature, it wasn't a thing back when I was an admin for Wikipedia
06:44:01 <ais523> if you check the logs carefully you can see me testing to ensure that it worked properly, and tweaking the messages
06:44:35 <int-e> Right. I saw a bit of that.
06:44:53 <ais523> scoped blocks don't allow you to exempt single pages, so I had to add a new rule to the spam filter instead, it'll have the same effect though
06:45:52 <ais523> (they may end up getting banned from their own userpage too, depending on what they do – but I prefer to keep blocks small if possible)
06:54:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135353&oldid=135352 * Unname4798 * (+217)
06:55:30 <ais523> denying that a block exists is an interesting strategy – didn't someone come up with a theory of "cargo cult moderation" a while bacK?
06:56:42 <int-e> well, words have power :)
06:57:04 <ais523> oh wow, they hit filter 11 earlier and I missed it ("disallow transclusion of user talk pages")
06:57:19 <ais523> it's weird enough that I had to ban that in the first place (back in 2018)
06:57:28 <ais523> it's even weirder that someone else ended up hitting it
06:57:29 <int-e> Or maybe they're nitpicking the fact that it's not the block but a spam filter, who knows.
06:57:40 <ais523> oh, they might have just checked their contribs page
06:57:50 <b_jonas> segfaults => must be one of those golfed interpreters then
06:58:40 <ais523> at some point I need to get around to writing a policy on how to use the various namespaces correctly
06:58:55 <ais523> partly for the benefit of new users who don't know the rules, and partly for admins to have something to point to
07:03:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135354&oldid=134983 * Ais523 * (+429) it's a bad idea to add long repetitive text to pages
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08:50:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135355 * Unname4798 * (+226) Created page with "hjhjhj is uncomputable. ~~~~"
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09:58:44 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135356 * Ractangle * (+1247) Created page with "'''Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly''' or '''WDS File error''' is
09:59:55 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135357&oldid=135356 * Ractangle * (+69)
10:25:52 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135358&oldid=135357 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Interpriters */
10:28:31 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135359&oldid=135358 * Ractangle * (+307) /* Interpriters */
10:29:19 <esolangs> [[Bash: foo: No such file or directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135360&oldid=118918 * Ractangle * (+141) /* See also */
10:30:30 <esolangs> [['xxx' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135361&oldid=133496 * Ractangle * (+144) /* See also */
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10:32:25 <esolangs> [[Bad command or file name]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135362&oldid=132901 * Ractangle * (+143) /* See also */
10:32:42 <esolangs> [[Bad command or file name]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135363&oldid=135362 * Ractangle * (-2) /* See also */
10:34:23 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135364&oldid=135359 * Ractangle * (+70) /* Python */
10:35:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135365&oldid=135247 * Ractangle * (+128) /* Esolangs */
10:35:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute written correctly]] to [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]]
10:36:13 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135368&oldid=135366 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Syntax */
10:36:39 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135369&oldid=135368 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Interpriters */
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10:44:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135370&oldid=135365 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Esolangs */
10:50:22 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135371&oldid=135213 * Ractangle * (+18)
10:50:31 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135372&oldid=135371 * Ractangle * (+0)
10:51:11 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135373&oldid=135372 * Ractangle * (+3)
10:51:26 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135374&oldid=135373 * Ractangle * (+21)
10:52:13 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135375&oldid=135374 * Ractangle * (-42)
11:04:06 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135376&oldid=135375 * Ractangle * (+32) /* Words */
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12:40:40 <esolangs> [[Too Many Variables!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135377&oldid=135337 * Squareroot12621 * (+159) Make the table look prettier and add example code.
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12:45:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135378&oldid=135279 * Squareroot12621 * (+26) /* T */
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13:15:29 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135379&oldid=135370 * Ractangle * (-53) My phone died for some reason
13:18:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[]] to [[User:Ractangle/]]
13:18:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:]] to [[User talk:Ractangle/]]
13:19:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135384&oldid=135382 * Ractangle * (-211)
13:20:00 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135385&oldid=135379 * Ractangle * (-40) /* Esolangs */
13:20:41 <esolangs> [[Postrado]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135386&oldid=131757 * Ractangle * (-56)
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13:24:41 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135387&oldid=135124 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Commands */
13:25:01 <esolangs> [[ELBOG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135388 * CPNK * (+9513) Created page with "'''ELBOG''' (Esoteric Language Based On Guessing) is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:CPNK]] during an acid trip. ELBOG programs act as guidance to an uncertain interpreter, which guesses on which operations to perform. ==Language overview== The ELBOG inte
13:27:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[(script())]] to [[Javascriptfucked]]
13:28:05 <esolangs> [[Javascriptfucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135391&oldid=135389 * Ractangle * (+71)
13:28:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Javascriptfucked]] to [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]]
13:29:37 <esolangs> [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135394&oldid=135392 * Ractangle * (-27)
13:30:53 <esolangs> [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135395&oldid=135394 * Ractangle * (-49)
13:32:30 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135396&oldid=135385 * Ractangle * (+19) /* Esolangs */
13:35:19 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135397&oldid=134909 * CPNK * (+46) add elbog
13:35:32 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135398&oldid=134525 * Ractangle * (-13) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:36:09 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135399&oldid=135398 * Ractangle * (+20) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:36:34 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135400&oldid=135399 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:37:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135401&oldid=135378 * CPNK * (+12) add elbog
13:37:13 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135402&oldid=135400 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:38:48 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135403&oldid=135402 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:39:34 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135404&oldid=135115 * Ractangle * (+19) /* (script()) */
13:40:08 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135405&oldid=135404 * Ractangle * (+16) /* 'interbasic */
13:41:52 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135406&oldid=134971 * Ractangle * (-217) /* Implementations */
13:43:55 <esolangs> [[?++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135407&oldid=134526 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Commands */
13:44:10 <esolangs> [[?++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135408&oldid=135407 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Commands */
13:44:31 <esolangs> [[?++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135409&oldid=135408 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Commands */
13:48:19 <esolangs> [[?++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135410&oldid=135409 * Ractangle * (-9)
13:51:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135411&oldid=135351 * Tommyaweosme * (+30) the extra categories are part of the ARG
13:52:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135412&oldid=135344 * Tommyaweosme * (+16)
13:52:42 <esolangs> [[Postrado]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135413&oldid=135386 * Ractangle * (-32)
14:05:22 <esolangs> [[User:CPNK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135414 * CPNK * (+54) Created page with "im p1ssing into e mainfrvme ===langs=== * [[ELBOG]]"
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14:23:09 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135415&oldid=134571 * Ractangle * (+97) /* BrainofGolf */
14:26:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gilbert189/String arithmetic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135416 * PkmnQ * (+158) Created page with "Related but not exactly the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_operations --~~~~"
14:30:01 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135417&oldid=135369 * Ractangle * (+3)
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16:06:15 <esolangs> [[Uniquode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135418&oldid=108861 * TheCanon2 * (+9) Stub
16:08:08 <esolangs> [[Too Many Variables!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135419&oldid=135377 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
16:08:49 <esolangs> [[Bananaban]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135420&oldid=135232 * 1hals * (+151) category for deletion
16:09:08 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135421&oldid=135387 * Ractangle * (+5) /* CLFCE */
16:13:57 <esolangs> [[Turing-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135422&oldid=105986 * Unname4798 * (+51) add an exception
16:14:42 <esolangs> [[Turing-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135423&oldid=135422 * Unname4798 * (+38) clarify exception
16:14:57 <esolangs> [[Turing-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135424&oldid=135423 * Unname4798 * (+1)
16:20:46 <esolangs> [[Whap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135425&oldid=129829 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Stub, categories
16:22:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Walking straight forward]] to [[Walking Straight Forward]]: Fix capitalisation
16:37:56 <esolangs> [[Turing-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135428&oldid=135424 * Corbin * (+112) Remove vandalism and reword the opening paragraph to be more precise and structured.
16:41:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135429&oldid=135353 * Corbin * (+219) /* Turing-complete */ new section
17:10:26 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135430 * Qawtykit * (+2791) Created page with "'''akdrfsbathnede knem''' Is a esolang by [[User:Qawtykit]] that uses a tape of stacks to store data. ===Basics=== akdrfsbathnede knem has an unbounded tape of stacks. Those stacks can contain any integer. You can also "carry" one value and place it somewhe
17:30:23 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135431 * 1hals * (+3620) create
17:31:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135432&oldid=135401 * 1hals * (+16) /* S */ add Smellcode
17:32:04 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135433&oldid=135431 * 1hals * (+23) add language category
17:34:31 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135434&oldid=135433 * 1hals * (+151) add backtick and helloworld
17:38:26 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135435&oldid=135434 * 1hals * (+155) /* Idioms */ add 2 idioms
17:40:29 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135436&oldid=135435 * 1hals * (+148) /* Operators */ add the jump-to operator
17:47:57 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135437&oldid=135436 * 1hals * (+605) add more explanation
17:58:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135438&oldid=135355 * Unname4798 * (+304)
17:58:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135439&oldid=135438 * Unname4798 * (+1)
18:36:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135440&oldid=135439 * Tommyaweosme * (+361)
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19:59:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135441&oldid=135188 * Ais523 * (+703) /* */ new section
19:59:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135442&oldid=135441 * Ais523 * (+122) signature
19:59:51 <ais523> haven't forgotten one of those in a while
20:01:47 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135443&oldid=134982 * 5anz * (+4)
20:01:59 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135444&oldid=135443 * 5anz * (-4)
20:02:37 <ais523> hmm… I think my current working mental model of the Church-Turing thesis is "you cannot %implement% a language that's more powerful than a Turing machine", but that's a little deficient because you can't implement a Turing machine either
20:04:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135445&oldid=135442 * Ractangle * (+224) /* */
20:05:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135446&oldid=134440 * 5anz * (-13) /* Tests */
20:05:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135447&oldid=135446 * 5anz * (+13)
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20:06:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[User:Ractangle/]] to [[]] over redirect: revert move (with author's permission) page is already on the language list, hello world page, etc. and so should stay in mainspace
20:06:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[User talk:Ractangle/]] to [[Talk:]] over redirect: revert move (with author's permission) page is already on the language list, hello world page, etc. and so should stay in mainspace
20:06:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[User:Ractangle/]]"
20:06:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[Talk:]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[User talk:Ractangle/]]"
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20:15:16 <korvo> ais523: Feel free to tweak the wording; I wasn't quite happy with it either.
20:16:01 <ais523> oh, I'm not sure whether this is a mainstream view or not
20:16:12 <korvo> Like, what we *want* is for TC (sometimes called R) to be a category under reductions; we want every Turing-complete language to be reducible to every other one. But it's hard to see that high-level goal without first getting through the nuts and bolts.
20:16:37 <korvo> And of course folks will say that the CT thesis prevents that for nebulous philosophical reasons. It's kind of a frustrating impasse.
20:16:39 <ais523> the thing about the Church-Turing thesis is that it has a wide range of possible interpretations, ranging all the way from "obviously objectively true" to "obviously a philosophical/religious statement that we have no way to assign a truth value to and which must be a matter of faith", with quite a few in between
20:17:20 <ais523> I think "every Turing-complete language is reducible to every other Turing-complete language" is true by definition, at least with the normal definition of "Turing-complete" = "Turing-equivalent"
20:17:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135450&oldid=135126 * 5anz * (+377) /* Mentioning 2 things. */ new section
20:17:48 <ais523> some people use it to mean Turing-powerful instead, in which case the statement is false if you consider languages that are definable but not implementable
20:18:07 <korvo> Yeah. One hidden part is poly-time reduction. We want all of these to be in poly time because the universe appears to be poly-time. The surprising thing about the CT thesis is that it doesn't diagonalize poorly or sensitively WRT this assumption.
20:18:19 <ais523> (this came up in the Netrunner TCness proof – I was able to prove that it was Turing-powerful but wasn't quite able to prove it was computable)
20:18:29 <korvo> Like, the universe's complexity isn't P but more like BQP, and yet we still reach the same Turing-equivalent stuff at the top.
20:18:49 <b_jonas> wait what? modern languages^W games designed after M:tG do that?
20:19:04 <ais523> b_jonas: Netrunner has a halting oracle in the rules, but it's not clear that it's possible to apply it to a nontrivial program
20:19:06 <b_jonas> I thought they all had built-in limits so they can't become uncomputable
20:19:55 <ais523> there is an ICE which has as its only subroutine "Resolve a subroutine on another ICE" – if the only ICE that exist are two of those, the game would "naturally" enter an infinite loop, and there is a loop-breaking rule that handles the situation
20:20:18 <b_jonas> like I think you can't have more than a small fixed number creatures in Hearthstone
20:20:22 <ais523> but it's worded generally rather than being specific to that interaction
20:20:39 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, Hearthstone and Yu-Gi-Oh! both have limits on the number of minions/monsters you can have
20:21:01 <b_jonas> and I think it's not *just* the monsters but other things are limited too
20:21:01 <ais523> although at least in the case of Yu-Gi-Oh! the limit seems to be an intentional balance restriction and hitting it naturally is quite common
20:21:40 <ais523> most non-digital games seem to allow arbitrary amounts of other things, though, e.g. in Yu-Gi-Oh! you can have arbitrarily many counters or levels or ATK/DEF boosts or Life Points
20:21:46 <b_jonas> I think the Hearthstone limit is at least partly balance restriction too
20:22:52 <b_jonas> Settlers of Catan limiting the total number of resource cards that players can have and the number of roads that each player can build is a funny one
20:22:53 <ais523> (oddly, AFAICT, the official digital Yu-Gi-Oh! client caps the display value of these things at specific nice-looking numbers like 9999999, but caps the actual value at a higher number; it wouldn't surprise me if it were INT_MAX or UINT_MAX)
20:28:24 <korvo> I think everything in Hearthstone is primitive recursive. Ditto with Runeterra, although I've not played it myself. Perhaps they've added newer cards in the past half-decade.
20:30:19 <b_jonas> by the way, as for nethack not being TC, I had previously been thinking of the opposite thing, i.e. how hard it would be to make a nethack version that is limited to bounded amount of storage (RAM and level saves together), but in a way that doesn't change the game much. the most important part is limiting the number of item stacks alive. what I am thinking of is that when there are too many item stacks
20:30:22 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that Hearthstone has trigger loops that would be infinite if not for the limit on the number of triggers that can resolve
20:30:25 <b_jonas> (with several warnings to the player before they reach that limit), the whole dungeon would shudder and run a garbage collection phase that deletes or merges half of the stacks. but you need a really complicated algorithm to make this both not easily noticable and not deliberately exploitable by the player. you may also need to limit the number of remembered dead monster entries (in theory it's limited
20:30:31 <b_jonas> to one per item but as they take up more space you may want a lower limit), and possibly the number of monsters waiting in line to enter a level (I don't know if that's limited or not).
20:30:44 <b_jonas> yeah, IIRC Hearthstone has a low limit on triggers too
20:30:52 <ais523> b_jonas: just make *all* items stackable
20:31:02 <ais523> then the number of stacks is limited by the number of distinct item type / stat cominations
20:31:12 <ais523> (number of stacks per square, that is)
20:32:16 <b_jonas> no, because (1) I want the memory bound to not only be theoretically finite but also practical enoguh that a modern computer can actually run the game up to the limit (I don't need it to be portable to ancient DOS machines), and (2) there are containers that you can stack to an unlimited amount
20:33:06 <ais523> limiting container nesting wouldn't be too much of a change to the game
20:33:16 <ais523> I see what you mean about practical memory limit
20:33:57 <b_jonas> this isn't really contradictory with the goal that you pursue about TC, you can still want a practical turing-complete machine implied by the mechanics even if it will run into a large memory limit eventually
20:34:41 <b_jonas> our computers have finite storage so most of the accidentally turing-complete thing that we run into have such limits, some of them just behave worse when you try to reach that limit
20:36:08 <b_jonas> for the TC-ness, how hard it in nethack to deliberately get into a softlock where you the player never get to make any decisions, eg. because monsters around you keep paralyzing or sleeping you, possibly combined with polyself
20:37:28 <ais523> blue jelly with amulet of unchanigng
20:37:31 <b_jonas> polyself helps because it lets you stop the hunger clock
20:37:34 <ais523> although, you eventually starve to death i think
20:37:51 <b_jonas> but how do you put on an amulet of unchanging after you polyself?
20:37:57 <b_jonas> or polyself with an amulet of unchanging
20:37:58 <ais523> at least in 3.4.3, you get a turn
20:38:17 <ais523> just the one turn, but speed changes are slightly delayed in 3.4.3
20:38:30 <ais523> it might require intrinsic speed to pull off but it's doable
20:39:00 <ais523> but, I think food is a problem no matter what, if you don't have unchanging the polymorph expires, if you do you take amulet hunger
20:39:20 <b_jonas> yes, the amulet causes you hunger
20:41:30 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135451 * HammyHammerhead * (+234) My sandbox
20:42:08 <esolangs> [[Smellcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135452&oldid=135437 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
20:44:10 <ais523> in more recent versions of NetHack we intentionally broke scripted (i.e. repeated pastescript input) infinite loops, because they caused too much server load for public servers
20:44:28 <ais523> (also there is a hard turn limit to discourage people from trying to overflow the turn counter, it would never be hit in a reasonable game)
20:47:32 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135453&oldid=135430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Lowercase, categories
20:47:52 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135454&oldid=135453 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Fix header leavels
20:51:33 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135455&oldid=135289 * HammyHammerhead * (+124)
20:51:49 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135456&oldid=135415 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Category
20:52:32 <esolangs> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135457&oldid=134010 * Ractangle * (+91)
20:53:15 <esolangs> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135458&oldid=135457 * Ractangle * (+24)
20:53:19 <esolangs> [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135459&oldid=135395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
20:54:57 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135460&oldid=135455 * HammyHammerhead * (+136)
20:56:33 <esolangs> [[D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135461&oldid=135458 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Wording, categories
20:57:54 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135462&oldid=134107 * HammyHammerhead * (+39)
20:59:16 <esolangs> [[MindFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135463&oldid=105881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) Categories
21:22:59 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135464&oldid=135412 * Tommyaweosme * (+96)
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21:53:21 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135465 * Tommyaweosme * (+1385) my best esolang yet
21:53:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135466&oldid=135464 * Tommyaweosme * (+4) yayaya wip stage is finally over!!! :D
21:54:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/tabs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135467&oldid=135087 * Tommyaweosme * (+40)
21:54:25 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135468&oldid=135130 * Tommyaweosme * (+29)
21:55:07 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135469&oldid=135468 * Tommyaweosme * (+18)
21:55:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135470&oldid=135469 * Tommyaweosme * (+46)
21:56:55 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135471&oldid=135465 * Tommyaweosme * (+94)
22:04:45 <esolangs> [[Zephyr ASDL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135472 * Corbin * (+398) Stub. Give me a moment and I'll fill it out.
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22:07:59 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135473&oldid=135336 * Corbin * (+52) Fix four redlinks.
22:34:17 <esolangs> [[Zephyr ASDL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135474&oldid=135472 * Corbin * (+1100) Unstub.
22:52:30 <esolangs> [[Zephyr ASDL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135475&oldid=135474 * Corbin * (+126) Cite Stack Overflow. Not my first pick, but it includes contributions from CPython developers.
23:00:56 <ais523> korvo: to be fair, having any sources at all is somewhat rare in esolang documentation
23:01:07 <ais523> so you're already doing better than the majority of articles in that respect
23:02:33 <korvo> Yeah. I want to be courteous to the next software archeologist to follow me.
23:06:35 <esolangs> [[Deadfish TM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135476&oldid=101694 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+190) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Deadfish TM programming language on GitHub, altered the Unimplemented to Implemented, and supplemented a further page category tag.
23:08:29 <esolangs> [[Deadfish TM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135477&oldid=135476 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Rectified the Hello world example which would devolve to a perpetual loop printing the term worm.
23:53:59 <ais523> many older articles have long lists of external resources – but nowadays many/most esolangs don't exist outside of the wiki
23:57:01 <b_jonas> well sure, if the wiki wasn't yet available then you'd publish the esolang elsewhere, and there's something you link to