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02:52:56 <korvo> b_jonas: Thus leading to my theory of wiki, "well somebody should probably write that down somewhere."
02:53:50 <korvo> Like, I know some people think my contributions here or at nLab mean that I'm some great computer scientist or category theorist. No! I suck at all of this! I wanted to be a jazz pianist! But nobody else is documenting it, so I guess I should do it.
02:54:24 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135478&oldid=134168 * TheCanon2 * (+289) Formatting
02:58:07 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135479&oldid=135233 * TheCanon2 * (+2) Math
02:58:08 <b_jonas> korvo: that's part of it, but also I want to direct people towards interesting esolangs or related topics
02:58:23 <b_jonas> that they might not notice otherwise
02:58:36 <korvo> We should do another featured language~
02:58:40 <b_jonas> so I often try to document why the particular thing is interesting
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04:00:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135480&oldid=135440 * Unname4798 * (+66)
04:00:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135481&oldid=135480 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:01:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135482&oldid=135481 * Unname4798 * (+204) sign my post
04:22:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Dongbei]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135483&oldid=127583 * PrySigneToFry * (+480)
04:27:26 <esolangs> [[Dongbei]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135484&oldid=127476 * PrySigneToFry * (+57)
04:32:12 <esolangs> [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135485&oldid=133409 * PrySigneToFry * (+185)
04:44:54 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135486&oldid=134999 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
05:29:27 <korvo> Long shot: Does anything in the standard FLOSS toolkit render interval trees? I need to render indefinite 1D and 2D interval trees and I'm debating whether I should torture gnuplot or write a custom SVG emitter.
05:30:17 <ais523> hmm… isn't a flamegraph basically an interval tree? although I'm not sure whether there are standard tools for rendering those either
05:31:05 <ais523> I feel like if I were implementing it from scratch I would probably try to torture graphviz, but am not at all convinced that would be the best option
05:31:55 <korvo> The standard tool for that is Brendan Gregg's Perl tool, and it doesn't do any sort of sorting or pretty rendering. If your call stack sucks, it'll gladly render something unreadable.
05:32:49 <zzo38> or use PostScript, but if you want SVG output then you will either need a PostScript driver to produce SVG or you will need a program to convert PDF to SVG.
05:33:15 <korvo> I'd rather emit raw XML at that point. It's not my first time doing it, although I never seem to get the hang of it.
05:33:45 <ais523> the thing I like least about writing XML and HTML emitters is working out what the correct incantation to start the document with is
05:34:00 <ais523> at least HTML 5 picked one that's fairly easy to memorise
05:34:14 <korvo> Hail SVG, full of DOCTYPE, <g> be all your paths
05:34:29 <ais523> even then I often have to look up the correct way to specify the document as being in UTF-8
05:35:21 <zzo38> If you use only ASCII then presumably you should not need to declare the character encoding?
05:35:32 <ais523> zzo38: I normally do use Unicode characters a lot
05:35:33 <korvo> No worries. Have a good night.
05:35:47 <ais523> and although I could write out the entities, it's a bit of a pain
05:35:56 <zzo38> OK, in that case then yes you should declare it
05:35:57 <ais523> (and also more bandwidth, for what little that matters)
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05:38:28 <zzo38> Do you know PostScript programming?
05:40:53 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135487&oldid=135479 * TheCanon2 * (+243) Added Hello, World!
05:41:13 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135488&oldid=135487 * TheCanon2 * (+1) exclamation point
05:44:27 <korvo> zzo38: Not really. Is there a good tutorial you'd recommend?
05:45:34 <zzo38> I don't know of any; I had just read the PostScript Language Reference, third edition.
05:54:19 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135489&oldid=127440 * PrySigneToFry * (+348) Added another interpreter and formatted the code to ensure compliance with PEP8 specifications.
06:18:13 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135490 * RainbowDash * (+2306) Page created
06:19:44 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio/INCDEC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135491 * RainbowDash * (+5929) Created page with "Simply branch to "inc" or "dec" to preform the given operation on a cell. You should branch to halt after your program is done to not cause any undefined behiavor. <pre> :inc fnr 255 256 fnr 254 255 fnr 253 254 fnr 252 253 fnr 251 252 fnr 250 251 fnr 249 2
06:20:02 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio/INCDEC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135492&oldid=135491 * RainbowDash * (+26)
06:20:11 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio/INCDEC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135493&oldid=135492 * RainbowDash * (+4)
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06:25:37 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135494&oldid=135490 * RainbowDash * (+5501) Implementations and categorized
06:26:57 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135495&oldid=135004 * RainbowDash * (+17)
06:28:37 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135496&oldid=135494 * RainbowDash * (+4)
06:29:25 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135497&oldid=135496 * RainbowDash * (-3) /* Cat (In Decimal) */
06:36:27 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135498&oldid=135497 * RainbowDash * (+62) /* Addition NIM */
06:36:59 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135499&oldid=135498 * RainbowDash * (+49) /* C */
06:42:55 <esolangs> [[SUTRAGNEZOl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135500&oldid=130262 * Yayimhere * (-1)
06:43:14 <esolangs> [[SUTRAGNEZOl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135501&oldid=135500 * Yayimhere * (-29)
06:52:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135502 * Unname4798 * (+19) Created page with "This is my sandbox."
06:54:03 <esolangs> [[FJ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135503&oldid=113209 * Tomhe * (+115) /* See also */
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08:08:30 <b_jonas> "at least HTML 5 picked one that's fairly easy to memorise" => what? is it not like the “<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"><html><head>” thing?
08:09:51 <b_jonas> uh, and then “<meta http-equiv="Content-Type content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">”
08:10:00 <b_jonas> since you mention declaring UTF-8
08:10:16 <b_jonas> though in practice just a BOM at the start would work too
08:12:38 <korvo> I think the hope is that it's <!DOCTYPE html5> in all cases.
08:13:02 <korvo> Er, <!DOCTYPE html>. I always forget that it's not versioned.
08:22:46 <b_jonas> I think if you're not using XHTML then nobody except for validators actually cares about what those doctype declarations say, browsers just do their best job to render and ignore broken parts
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10:19:39 <b_jonas> oh no, abstrusegoose.com domain expired. not only is the comic stalled but now they don't even have the domain
10:36:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Dongbei]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135504&oldid=135483 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
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12:46:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135505&oldid=135482 * Tommyaweosme * (+636)
12:56:57 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135506 * Tommyaweosme * (+360) Created page with "{{stub}} The kids choice awards is a program that prints "slime" over and over without terminating. This tests: * printing * looping * ability for lack of termination * ascii/[[tanstore]]/something else entirely * a good sense of humor * slimeslimesli
13:05:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135507&oldid=135429 * Tommyaweosme * (+296)
13:07:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/brainfuck scripts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135508&oldid=131112 * Tommyaweosme * (-152) calculator v2 doesnt exist
13:08:46 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135509&oldid=134445 * TheCanon2 * (+34) Added the pi-alpha function
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13:35:16 <esolangs> [[Pi-alpha function]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135510 * TheCanon2 * (+629) Created the article
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14:21:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EsolanKnODm * New user account
14:24:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135511&oldid=135342 * EsolanKnODm * (+194)
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14:42:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135512&oldid=135505 * Unname4798 * (+110)
14:43:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135513&oldid=135512 * Unname4798 * (+204) sign my post
14:47:57 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135514&oldid=135506 * Unname4798 * (+54) [[my-new-esolang]] and text
14:48:14 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135515&oldid=135514 * Unname4798 * (+4)
14:48:36 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135516&oldid=135515 * Unname4798 * (+2)
14:49:13 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135517&oldid=135516 * Unname4798 * (-16)
14:49:34 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135518&oldid=135517 * Unname4798 * (+0)
14:50:48 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135519&oldid=135518 * Unname4798 * (+28)
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15:30:35 <esolangs> [[Stroke]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135520&oldid=130072 * Ttulka * (+38) /* External resources */ add Category
15:32:33 <esolangs> [[Stroke]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135521&oldid=135520 * Ttulka * (+4) fix Category
15:47:28 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135522&oldid=135519 * Tommyaweosme * (-72)
15:57:02 <esolangs> [[Pi-alpha function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135523&oldid=135510 * TheCanon2 * (+784) Completed the article.
15:58:40 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135524&oldid=135466 * Tommyaweosme * (+922)
15:59:36 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135525&oldid=135522 * Tommyaweosme * (+41)
16:02:11 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135526&oldid=135525 * Unname4798 * (+39)
16:03:35 <esolangs> [[Amo gus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135527&oldid=134919 * Tommyaweosme * (+111)
16:04:31 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135528&oldid=135526 * Unname4798 * (+38)
16:04:38 <esolangs> [[Kiwiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135529&oldid=125718 * Tommyaweosme * (+34)
16:04:49 <esolangs> [[Kiwiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135530&oldid=135529 * Tommyaweosme * (+3) /* dolfins grace */
16:05:27 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135531&oldid=135528 * Unname4798 * (+5) this is a joke
16:07:38 <esolangs> [[No.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135532&oldid=115924 * Tommyaweosme * (+31) /* Interpreters */
16:07:40 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135533&oldid=135531 * Unname4798 * (+52) add JS
16:09:47 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135534&oldid=132734 * Tommyaweosme * (+32) /* Compilers */
16:12:52 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135535&oldid=135499 * RainbowDash * (+345) Refined INP
16:13:13 <esolangs> [[BizzFuzz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135536 * Tommyaweosme * (+416) Created page with "BizzFuzz is a <s>soda</s> program form. == How it works == Bizz 5 times, then Fuzz. The third time a Bizz is said, a BizzFuzz is said instead == BizzFuzz up to 27 == bizz bizz bizz bizz bizz fuzz bizz bizz bizz bizz bizz fuzz bizz bizz bizz bizz bi
16:19:17 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135537&oldid=135535 * RainbowDash * (+75) /* Addition NIM */
16:21:19 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135538&oldid=135537 * RainbowDash * (+2) remove placeholder name
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17:04:41 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135539&oldid=135533 * Tommyaweosme * (-45)
17:17:00 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135540&oldid=135539 * Unname4798 * (+56)
17:18:15 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135541&oldid=135471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories
17:18:45 <esolangs> [[Kiwiscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135542&oldid=135530 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
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17:20:54 <esolangs> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135543&oldid=135534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Compilers */ Format
17:21:21 <esolangs> [[No.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135544&oldid=135532 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Interpreters */ Link
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18:12:44 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135545&oldid=134677 * Pro465 * (+589) revise it
18:20:39 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135546&oldid=135545 * Pro465 * (+30) update computational class
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18:42:38 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135547&oldid=135541 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) /* commands */
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18:48:56 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135548&oldid=135547 * Tommyaweosme * (+202)
18:49:05 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135549&oldid=135548 * Tommyaweosme * (+3)
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19:09:12 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135550&oldid=135059 * Ractangle * (+57) /* Commands */
19:09:23 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135551&oldid=135550 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Commands */
19:16:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135552&oldid=135511 * KSPAtlas * (+150) added myself
19:16:10 <esolangs> [[TFMG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135553 * KSPAtlas * (+4610) made page
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19:32:38 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135554&oldid=135524 * Tommyaweosme * (+103)
19:50:39 <esolangs> [[Whenever]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135555&oldid=108834 * Ractangle * (+190) /* Commands */
19:53:03 <korvo> Okay, I think I've prepared a fairly nice-looking 1D diagram summarizing the Busy Brain gauge: https://mostawesomedude.github.io/bb-gauge/bf-steps.html
19:53:54 <korvo> This is basically what I wanted from the start. I wanted a gauge which visually indicates our progress and how the different problems relate to each other in terms of (perceptual, epistemic) difficulty.
19:54:34 <korvo> Next up will be BLC, which is also 1D. I'll have to go back to the drawing board for a 2D presentation for the BB on TMs.
19:55:41 <esolangs> [[Whenever]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135556&oldid=135555 * Ractangle * (+187) /* Math */
20:12:14 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135557&oldid=135397 * Ractangle * (+131) /* Error simulators */
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20:25:36 <esolangs> [[TFMG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135558&oldid=135553 * KSPAtlas * (-19) wording
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20:32:43 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135559&oldid=135538 * RainbowDash * (+53)
20:35:37 <esolangs> [[Pi-alpha function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135560&oldid=135523 * TheCanon2 * (+106)
20:49:42 <fizzie> Bah. Wrote in support for ETag/Last-Modified response headers (and If-None-Match/If-Modified-Since request headers) to the logviewer, and it worked fine on the desktop, but it doesn't build on Debian stable because of GCC 12's more limited C++20 support, compared to GCC 13 here.
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21:04:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135561&oldid=135448 * Ractangle * (-2777)
21:04:16 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135562&oldid=135561 * Ractangle * (-1)
21:04:59 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135563&oldid=134583 * Ractangle * (-26) /* */
21:06:06 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135564&oldid=134889 * Ractangle * (-280) /* */
21:08:30 <esolangs> [[Pi-alpha function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135565&oldid=135560 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
21:10:24 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135566&oldid=135564 * Ractangle * (+169) /* */
21:11:39 <fizzie> (Solved with three ugly workarounds.)
21:12:24 <esolangs> [[IGNORED]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135567&oldid=128970 * Ractangle * (-71) /* Signs */
21:14:07 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio/INCDEC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135568&oldid=135493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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22:08:46 <salpynx> writing code for Turing machines is interesting. To do anything worthwile, algorithm states have a nested structure, but you have to either flatten them or use symbols to represent information about which sub-state you are in.
22:08:59 <salpynx> maybe I need some notation to reuse identical state transtion graphs in dfferent scopes? They would be compiled into duplicate edge transitions with distinct state (node) names, or maybe wrapped in different symbol markers to direct the block-end transitions to the correct destination after the shared block is complete..
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22:10:48 <salpynx> Not 100% sure if this makes sense, but I'm thinking about Turing machine code resuse (DRY!), and how it might relate to the tradeoff between symbols and states.
22:11:09 <ais523> <b_jonas> I think if you're not using XHTML then nobody except for validators actually cares about what those doctype declarations say, browsers just do their best job to render and ignore broken parts ← HTML5 uses <!DOCTYPE html> because it was the shortest string that browsers would recognise as entering standards-compliant HTML mode, apparently they were ignoring the rest of the declaration just like the humans were
22:13:27 <ais523> korvo: your gauge doesn't specifically say the cell size of the version of BF you're using; I assume it wraps at 256, but that should probably be written more clearly on the page
22:20:54 <b_jonas> hehe. next it'll turn out that the browsers are also ignoring the XML namespaces and just rely on that the tag names for SVG and MathML are clearly chosen to not collide with HTML
22:21:41 <b_jonas> does "standards-compliant HTML mode" mean that they ignore the IE magic comments?
22:21:50 <ais523> it turns off quirks mode
22:22:27 <ais523> which is basically a compatibility mode for bugs in old version of IE which became a de-facto standard
22:22:50 <ais523> or, not all of them were bugs, some of them were underspecified in the standards and IE implemented them differently to what eventually ended up being standardised
22:23:28 <b_jonas> does that include how they parse ampersand-entities that lack the semicolon? no, I think IE isn't involved in that
22:26:23 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirks_mode
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22:31:30 <b_jonas> I hope these differences won't come up for anything I develop, because I don't want to design HTMLs with pixel-exact designs that only work in IE5 on Windows 98 on 800x600 px resolution
22:32:24 <b_jonas> we're past that era and the web is crazy in new ways
22:32:42 <fizzie> I think I probably had a "best viewed with Netscape Navigator" gif on my personal home page.
22:33:08 <fizzie> Oh, and I definitely had a visitor counter.
22:34:11 * APic liked the animated GIF Counters that scrolled very, very fast. 😉
22:35:08 <ais523> I remember seeing sites with fake visitor counters in addition to the real one
22:35:56 <salpynx> TM as a node + edge labelled directed graph; look for repeated-edgelabel sub-graphs; compress. Now this is a compression problem, and a particular TM exists on a continuum of compression with many equivalent machines performing the same function (identity). bb winners are necessarily at the most compressed end of that continuum. (although there are probably two maximally compressed versions if we we swap which of symbol or state is most squeezed?)
22:37:40 <b_jonas> I used to have text that said "best viewed with Internet Explorer" or "best viewed with Netscape Navigator", whichever you weren't reading with, on an old long gone website
22:37:56 <ais523> what did it do if you weren't using either?
22:38:29 <b_jonas> I wonder if Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows 10 changes up the default window decorations just to push programmers against relying on pixel-perfect sizings that work only on the most common monitor size and font scaling
22:38:51 <b_jonas> but it would be uncharacteristic of Windows, they are usually big on compatibility with every old program starting from Windows 3.0
22:39:24 <b_jonas> ais523: displayed one of those two, I don't remember which one
22:39:46 <b_jonas> if you're using a non-common browser then you don't need the stupid joke
22:41:04 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC most measurements in the Windows APIs are based on the window area not including window decorations
22:41:19 <ais523> you can ask for the window decorations to be included in measurements, but normally have to do so explicitly, they're omitted by default
22:42:16 <b_jonas> sure, but programs (website or not) can have a layout that takes up a fixed area (measured in pixels) so changing the available area can break them in stupid ways.
22:42:54 <ais523> programs ilke that normally use less than the entire screen size and refuse to be resized
22:43:10 <ais523> think about installers from the Windows 95-XP era
22:43:33 <ais523> (do they still do that nowadays?)
22:44:36 <b_jonas> mind you, that's still better than modern websites THAT DELIBERATELY ADD SCRIPTS OR CSS TO HIDE IMPORTANT CONTROLS IF THE VIEWABLE AREA IS NARROWER THAN YOU EXPECT, so you can't change passwords unless you maximize your browser. that's actively breaking things rather than just lazy design
22:45:36 <b_jonas> I'm still pissed about the in-house design from my last job that does that
22:50:18 <zzo38> Sometimes you might be able to disable CSS (if your browser supports that) to avoid some problems; sometimes disabling CSS works around some of the problems that are caused by disabling scripts, too.
22:51:06 <zzo38> I think that there are many problems with WWW, and that is one thing. (If the forms support ARIA (which some do), then to make a viewer that can use ARIA mode, might be one thing to try to make, if it can be done.)
22:51:40 <ais523> in Firefox, disabling CSS is View | Page Style | No Style
22:51:46 <ais523> I am pretty sure I have done this before now, but cannot remember why
22:52:09 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I use too and I use that feature very often
22:52:49 <ais523> I often use reader mode, which (in effect) overrides the CSS, replacing it with some stock CSS
22:52:54 <ais523> but it also does things like removing sidebars
23:00:02 <korvo> ais523: Thanks, I'll make a note. I was hoping that that sort of detail wouldn't be relevant quite yet, but I'm always willing to expand my scope if it means that I get to include more folks from the community.
23:02:41 <b_jonas> I almost never entirely disable CSS these days, but I do often override it on some websites. I'm glad google sometimes crawling websites anonymously has made a lot of websites use fake paywalls where they do serve the full text of the article without payment and just hide it with some CSS and/or scripts.
23:03:36 <zzo38> There are other possible ideas to avoid some of these problems: subset of HTTP and HTML (see gemini://xavi.privatedns.org/small-web-browser.gmi for some ideas), other protocols and file formats (Gemini, Scorpion, NNTP, IRC, SSH, Gopher, etc), a local index of sites (see the link of subset of HTTP and HTML), auto-detection (from HTTP response headers and others), an index to speicify alternate services, etc.
23:04:35 <zzo38> I have criticisms of some of them, but multiple approaches are possible. These can be in addition to the other work-arounds mentioned above, and also the possibility to just complain, or to refuse to access it (and complain too if necessary), etc.
23:06:07 <ais523> hmm, it seems like in many situations where you lot are disabling CSS for the entire page, I instead open the developer tools and just delete the relevant rule
23:06:50 <ais523> I do the reverse, sometimes (usually adding a display:none rule for parts of the page that are annoying me)
23:06:58 <zzo38> Sometimes I will do that, but often I just don't like the CSS for the page anyways (I think that they should not try to style the page and just use the user's preferences, as much as possible).
23:07:02 <ais523> or occasionally visbility:hidden
23:08:30 <b_jonas> there used to be a time when every website used pointless random line-height CSS declarations, with no website at all that I've seen using that attribute in a useful way. that seems to have gone out of fashion by now.
23:08:55 <ais523> it is probably an attempt at WYSIWYG?
23:09:05 <ais523> as in, trying to make the page look the same on the viewer's screen as it does in the author's editor
23:09:34 <zzo38> One of the criteria I would use for an index of sites, that is not mentioned in gemini://xavi.privatedns.org/small-web-browser.gmi is that it should require that it works correctly even if CSS is disabled.
23:09:48 <b_jonas> yeah, good luck, I force my fonts on almost all websites because that's the one easy customization option that firefox still offers me
23:09:56 <ais523> one of my projects that I haven't got that far with is a web page "decompiler" which takes a web page made using a visual editor that has everything absolutely positioned, etc., and tries to convert it into sensible HTML that reflows according to the window size
23:10:41 <ais523> IMO, it makes sense to test websites with CSS disabled unless they are web applications that are heavily JS-based
23:11:13 <ais523> in order to ensure that the page looks reasonable to programs that don't parse it
23:11:57 <zzo38> Yes, although also many web applications will not need to be heavily JS-based either (sometimes it is helpful, but mostly it is not)
23:12:24 <zzo38> I generally just prefer to not add any CSS. However, a CSS rule that should be the default setting in my opinion, would be: img { max-width: 100% }
23:20:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Violation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135576 * Tommyaweosme * (+478) Created page with "what about a program that has an interpreter base code (that no one touches), and it generates a new interpreter with a comment added on to the base interpreter with a random 128-digit number, so that it is new and therefore undeleted. every time the interpre
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