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00:54:33 <Sgeo> How did I only recently learn that 2's complement is akin to negating the most significant place value?
00:54:39 <Sgeo> That's so... beautiful
00:54:41 <b_jonas> ais523: I was recently looking at https://esolangs.org/wiki/BMOW_1 which takes a lot from 6502 including that register structure
00:55:03 <Sgeo> Although I suppose a negative base makes things less dependent on number of bits in the number
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01:44:21 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137338&oldid=121029 * GUAqwq * (-20) Basic stage for proof
02:05:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137339&oldid=137308 * Cycwin * (+82)
02:12:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137340&oldid=137328 * PrySigneToFry * (-59)
02:12:45 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137341&oldid=137338 * GUAqwq * (+18) add Counting stage
02:14:39 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137342&oldid=137341 * GUAqwq * (+61) Add all stages
02:30:51 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137343&oldid=137342 * GUAqwq * (+292) /* Counting */
02:30:59 <Sgeo> Turing Complete the game's architecture has more registers, but specific ones for ALU use. I don't know if it's documented anywhere except while playing the game
02:32:19 <esolangs> [[U]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137344 * PrySigneToFry * (+2306) Created page with "{{WIP}} This page is related to [[User:Ractangle/U]]. I used ChatGPT to make this except some command is added by myself and all program is written by myself. == Command == # U: Push 0 onto the stack. # D: Pop the top value from the stack. # L: Duplicate the top valu
02:34:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137345&oldid=137340 * PrySigneToFry * (+584) /* Another topic about Esolang U */ new section
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03:04:23 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137346&oldid=137343 * GUAqwq * (+26) /* TC proof */
03:04:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137347&oldid=137291 * None1 * (+254) /* Question */
03:05:13 <Sgeo> Overture doesn't seem to... use RAM
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03:23:07 <Sgeo> https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782647016 documentation
03:23:17 <Sgeo> (Spoilers I guess?)
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03:29:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137348&oldid=137347 * PkmnQ * (+1) Parentheses
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03:52:36 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137349&oldid=137346 * GUAqwq * (+609) /* Boolean Operation */
03:58:22 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137350&oldid=137349 * GUAqwq * (+1) forgot an 's'
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04:16:59 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137351&oldid=137321 * Yayimhere * (+18) /* the copying rule */
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04:21:09 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137352&oldid=137351 * Yayimhere * (+131) /* some complexity */
04:21:57 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137353&oldid=137352 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* some complexity */
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06:00:52 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137354&oldid=137350 * GUAqwq * (+656) /* Condition */
06:09:46 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137355&oldid=137354 * Hakerh400 * (+215) Add interpreter
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07:01:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137356&oldid=137335 * Unname4798 * (-1)
07:07:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137357&oldid=137356 * Unname4798 * (+0) Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated]] from "wikitext" to "plain text"
07:07:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * Unname4798 * Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated]] from "wikitext" to "plain text"
07:08:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137358&oldid=137357 * Unname4798 * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/137357|137357]] by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]])
07:08:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * Unname4798 * Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated]] from "plain text" to "wikitext": Undo revision [[Special:Diff/137357|137357]] by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]])
07:10:07 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137359&oldid=137355 * GUAqwq * (+54) /* Copy */
07:11:12 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137360&oldid=137359 * GUAqwq * (+19) /* Compare */
07:11:20 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137361&oldid=137360 * GUAqwq * (+1) /* Compare */
07:14:25 <esolangs> [[Pointstack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137362&oldid=126363 * Catto.4 * (+953) a pointstack interpreter exists now so yea
07:14:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137363&oldid=135639 * PkmnQ * (+0) PkmnQ changed the content model of the page [[Esolang:Sandbox]] from "wikitext" to "plain text"
07:14:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PkmnQ * PkmnQ changed the content model of the page [[Esolang:Sandbox]] from "wikitext" to "plain text"
07:15:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137364&oldid=137363 * PkmnQ * (+0)
07:15:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PkmnQ * PkmnQ changed the content model of the page [[Esolang:Sandbox]] from "plain text" to "wikitext"
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07:23:26 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137365&oldid=137361 * GUAqwq * (+211) /* Calculation */
07:23:44 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137366&oldid=137365 * GUAqwq * (+2) /* Compare */
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07:26:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[User talk:Unname4798]] to [[User:Unname4798/Discussion archives/July 9 to August 31]]
07:26:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137369&oldid=137368 * Unname4798 * (-69) Blanked the page
07:28:20 -!- wWwwW has joined.
07:31:05 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137370&oldid=137366 * GUAqwq * (+150) /* Copy */
07:37:12 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137371&oldid=137370 * GUAqwq * (+149) /* Calculation */
07:37:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:TypeInt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137372 * Yayimhere * (+155) Created page with "if there is a TC proof than why is it unknown computational class --~~~~"
07:39:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137373&oldid=137369 * Yayimhere * (+119)
07:39:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137374&oldid=137373 * Unname4798 * (+235)
07:40:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137375&oldid=137374 * Yayimhere * (+98)
07:42:47 <Sgeo> Hi wWwwW . Sometimes people aren't around, but at least some check logs
07:42:55 <Sgeo> So you can say stuff and people might reply later
07:43:28 <wWwwW> thx for telling me
07:44:02 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137376&oldid=137371 * GUAqwq * (+104) /* Div */
07:44:45 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137377&oldid=137376 * GUAqwq * (+82) /* Mod */
07:45:09 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137378&oldid=137377 * GUAqwq * (+2) /* Calculation */
08:33:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Kak-]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137379 * Yayimhere * (+104) Created page with "is there a proof that its turing complete? --~~~"
08:35:53 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137380&oldid=137214 * Yayimhere * (+0)
08:39:26 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137381&oldid=137380 * Yayimhere * (+0)
08:40:50 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137382&oldid=104228 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Code */
08:41:13 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137383&oldid=137382 * Ractangle * (+3) /* I/O */
08:41:46 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137384&oldid=137383 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Creator and Name */
08:44:19 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137385&oldid=137384 * Ractangle * (+20)
08:44:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Yayimhere-like esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137386 * Yayimhere * (+213) Created page with "i made a 4 function calculator! number then operator is order of input. heres the code: 42 1m 47 0m 43 1o 45 0o1 1"
08:47:52 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137387&oldid=106521 * Ractangle * (-16)
08:48:32 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137388&oldid=137385 * Ractangle * (-10)
08:48:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137389&oldid=137386 * Yayimhere * (+4)
08:49:13 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137390&oldid=137387 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Code */
08:49:25 <esolangs> [[Enrtopy++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137391&oldid=137390 * Ractangle * (+3) /* I/O */
09:02:21 <esolangs> [[Blackboard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137392&oldid=136764 * Yayimhere * (+53)
09:03:00 <esolangs> [[Blackboard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137393&oldid=137392 * Yayimhere * (-1)
09:11:12 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137394&oldid=137378 * GUAqwq * (+378) /* Turing Machine */
09:12:31 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137395&oldid=137394 * GUAqwq * (+122) /* Calculation */
09:18:57 <esolangs> [[Blackboard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137396&oldid=137393 * Yayimhere * (+8)
09:19:40 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137397&oldid=137395 * GUAqwq * (+77) /* Turing Machine */ Tape invented!
09:35:42 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137398&oldid=137353 * Yayimhere * (+14) /* the halting n' stuff */
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09:46:31 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137399&oldid=137397 * GUAqwq * (+105) /* Turing Machine */
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09:59:17 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137400&oldid=137399 * GUAqwq * (+156) /* Turing Machine */
09:59:53 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137401&oldid=137400 * GUAqwq * (+7) /* Turing Machine */
10:04:15 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137402&oldid=137401 * GUAqwq * (+13) /* State Register */
10:04:28 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137403&oldid=137402 * GUAqwq * (+1) /* Register */
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10:18:16 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137404&oldid=137403 * GUAqwq * (+573) /* Turing Machine */
10:20:16 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137405&oldid=137404 * GUAqwq * (+54) /* if-elif-else & while */
10:22:10 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137406&oldid=137405 * GUAqwq * (-23) Turing Completeness proved
10:24:32 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137407&oldid=137406 * GUAqwq * (+35)
10:26:37 <esolangs> [[TypeInt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137408&oldid=137407 * GUAqwq * (-9)
10:32:45 <esolangs> [[Gar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137409&oldid=105566 * Ractangle * (-13)
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11:34:22 <esolangs> [[U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137410&oldid=137344 * Ractangle * (+54)
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12:13:28 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137411&oldid=135791 * Ractangle * (+456)
12:13:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/U]] to [[User:U (Ractangle)]]
12:13:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:U (Ractangle)]] to [[U (Ractangle)]]
12:15:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[U]] to [[U (PrySigneToFry)]]
12:18:37 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137418&oldid=137416 * Ractangle * (+123) /* Author */
12:19:22 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137419&oldid=137418 * Ractangle * (-7) /* Example simple scripts */
12:20:15 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137420&oldid=137419 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Example Programs */
12:21:52 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137421&oldid=137420 * Ractangle * (-23) /* Simple examples */
12:25:56 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137422&oldid=137421 * Ractangle * (-99) /* Example Programs */
12:27:23 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137423&oldid=137414 * Ractangle * (+35)
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13:05:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137424 * Tommyaweosme * (+326) Created page with "== Instructions (please don't remove/hide/make hard to read) == You can use this page for any editing. Note that your edits may not be overwritten at all by other users you can use [[Esolang:Sandox|stupidbox]] to work on content that need
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13:45:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137425 * Unname4798 * (+402) Created page with "Please, remove this page! This wiki already has [[Esolang:Sandbox|the sandbox]]. Also, user pages are meant to be edited '''only''' by the user it belongs to. Example: [[User:Ais523]] is only meant to be edited only by Ais523. ~~~"
13:46:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137426&oldid=137425 * Unname4798 * (+9)
13:46:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137427&oldid=137426 * Unname4798 * (-5)
13:49:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137428&oldid=137427 * Unname4798 * (+209)
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14:05:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]]": userspace fork of the Sandbox (as opposed to userspace sandbox)
14:05:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Sandbox]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: userspace fork of the Sandbox (as opposed to userspace sandbox)
14:08:23 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137429&oldid=136520 * Unname4798 * (+28)
14:10:05 <esolangs> [[Futuri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137430 * Unname4798 * (+212) Created page with "Futuri is an esolang made by Unname4798. == Command == The only command is nothing, meaning that a new universe will be created and the old universe will be delayed by 1ms, resulting in infinitely many universes."
14:14:17 <ais523> I had a great esolang idea this morning: Blindfolded Arithmetic, except with rationals, with / being rational division rather than floor-division
14:14:45 <ais523> it is a fun puzzle to work out how this is TC, given sufficiently many registers
14:17:05 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137431 * Tommyaweosme * (+478) Created page with "NameError without a quine with a quine is a derivative of [[NameError without a quine]] by [[User:Tommyaweosme]]. when you type this: Traceback (most recent call first): File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> JustAnError: Why did yo
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14:23:58 <b_jonas> ais523: is that with just subtract, multiplication and division? no less-than comparison like https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL has?
14:25:44 <ais523> b_jonas: right, you also get addition
14:25:50 <ais523> also I just realised my proof was flawed
14:25:55 <ais523> so it's a puzzle for me too
14:26:33 <b_jonas> if you have enough registers and subtraction than I think addition doesn't matter
14:27:02 <ais523> but on that basis, multiplication doesn't either, except for multiplication by 0 which can probably be worked around
14:27:58 <ais523> it's even more fun if you ban self-operations like self-subtraction, then the language becomes reversible
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14:28:51 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137432&oldid=137423 * Ractangle * (+40) /* Commands */
14:28:58 <b_jonas> I don't know if this is TC or not
14:29:22 <ais523> nor did I – I thought it was but my proof was wrong
14:29:43 <b_jonas> any variant of integer division (together with multiplication and subtraction) lets you make conditionals easily
14:29:52 <b_jonas> but if you lose that it becomes much harder
14:30:00 <b_jonas> which I guess is kind of the problem with conedy
14:30:52 <esolangs> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137433&oldid=95388 * Ais523 * (+7) /* Specification */ fix thinko
14:32:22 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137434 * Unname4798 * (+156) Created page with "{{PAGENAME}} is a derivative of [[NameError without a quine with a quine]] by Unname4798 When you type this: JustAnError It outputs: lol no quinz foryou"
14:35:19 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137435&oldid=137429 * Unname4798 * (+76)
14:35:29 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137436 * Tommyaweosme * (+411) Created page with "1 bytes :3 is a esolang based off of [[3 bytes :v)]]. == interpreter == ,+++. the interpreter is in brainfuck, so every command is of a byte == print "a" == ^ == print start of heading == ~ note this only works on certain interpreters. other interpreters may
14:37:05 <esolangs> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137437&oldid=137433 * Ais523 * (+969) /* Computational class */ proof sketch for Turing-power
14:37:55 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a little different from the Conedy problem – Conedy has simple conditionals but it's hard to get them to operate on anything other than recently added data, whereas this doesn't have simple conditionals at all
14:39:03 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137438 * Tommyaweosme * (+527) Created page with "NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine is a language derived from [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine]] by [[user:tommyaweosme]] when you type in this: lo
14:39:27 <ais523> I was planning to prove rational Blindfolded Arithmetic TC along similar lines to Analogia, but the proof comes down when it comes to storing arbitrary amounts of data – you don't get an accurate sin function that works on unboundedly large values
14:39:34 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER PI
14:40:12 <esolangs> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137439&oldid=137437 * Ais523 * (+9) /* Computational class */ sin works in radians, not full circles
14:40:35 <esolangs> [[Analogia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137440&oldid=137439 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ typo
14:40:50 <esolangs> [[NameError]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137441&oldid=136196 * Tommyaweosme * (+45)
14:41:11 -!- wWwwW has joined.
14:41:15 <ais523> so it's hard to prevent lack-of-rounding errors accumulating on your bigints
14:41:43 <wWwwW> sory if i interupted an discussion
14:42:36 <ais523> it's OK, IRC regulars are used to being in multiple conversations at once
14:42:56 <ais523> after a while it reaches the point where you can have two conversations at once with the same person, because you've had so much practice doing it with two different people
14:44:55 <wWwwW> i had an idea and idk if its a good idea(a esolang idea). can i get some feedback?
14:45:17 <esolangs> [[ bytes :lennyface:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137442 * Unname4798 * (+169) Created page with "{{PAGENAME}} is an esolang made by Unname4798. == Interpreter in [[branflakes]] == . This language always outputs NUL (0x00), no matter what. == Quine (hexdump) == 0x00"
14:45:19 <wWwwW> so you know the chilcrens game word chain
14:45:28 <esolangs> [[ bytes :lennyface:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137443&oldid=137442 * Unname4798 * (+1)
14:45:31 <ais523> I know two different games with that name
14:45:45 <ais523> are you talking about the one where you change one letter of a word each time?
14:45:54 <ais523> to go from one word to another?
14:45:58 <wWwwW> that gam,e where you do like: cat -> cot -> dot
14:46:10 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137444&oldid=137435 * Unname4798 * (+43)
14:46:10 <wWwwW> but as a stirng rewriting esolang
14:46:34 <wWwwW> idk how the syntax would be
14:46:45 <wWwwW> there are a few rules:
14:46:51 <ais523> there is https://esolangs.org/wiki/2C which is similar to that but it changes all the letters at once
14:46:57 <ais523> so yours would be different
14:47:10 <wWwwW> every state of the memory(string) must be a english woird
14:47:26 <wWwwW> ais523 i read that. rlly cool
14:48:04 <wWwwW> second rule: only one letter at a time
14:48:22 <wWwwW> if no words can be generated then we go to the next word
14:48:52 <wWwwW> and we continue until <some condition here>
14:49:13 <ais523> it'd be a different language, but it could be interesting if the "change one letter at a time, must be English words only" rule applied to the program rather than the memory
14:49:38 <ais523> and maybe the command run would be based on what letter was changed from and to
14:49:52 <wWwwW> like both emmroy most be word
14:50:00 <wWwwW> and also applied to program
14:50:03 <b_jonas> oh, I hadn't remembered this 2C thing. that's a nice way to represent a 1D cellular automaton that works on a finite region extendible to the left
14:50:05 <ais523> perhaps the position in the word gives the command, and the letter changed from and to specifies the arguments
14:50:27 <ais523> b_jonas: right, it was invented as a "step in TCness proof" language but it's come in useful for more than one TCness proof
14:50:31 <wWwwW> how did i send ¨ twice
14:50:43 <ais523> I'm not sure, that letter isn't even on my keyboard
14:51:07 <wWwwW> that thing i keep pressin while entering enter
14:51:39 <ais523> I have a huge number of characters on my keyboard – I chose a keyboard layout that lets me type a wide range of possibilities because I need symbols and non-English letters so often
14:51:42 <ais523> but, I don't know where all of them are
14:52:01 <ais523> it's labelled like a normal keyboard, I just have to memorise all the characters that aren't there normally
14:52:04 <wWwwW> wait i got an stubid(i think) idea
14:52:38 <ais523> the "memory must be a real word" rule makes it hard to be TC because there are only finitely many real words
14:52:51 <ais523> but you could perhaps make it a list of real words, separated by spaces, and allow changing letters into spaces and vice versa
14:52:52 <wWwwW> but if you can have multiple words?
14:53:36 <wWwwW> should i make it maybe?
14:53:45 <ais523> I imagine programmers would find a way to work around the restriction fairly easily, though
14:53:52 <b_jonas> it's an iso-8859-1 diacritic, the one from the series that interprets ASCII ` and ~ as such diacritics that you use by backspacing your printer and adds a few more to cover basically the same fricking letters that are already in iso-8859-1 (plus a few extra Welsh letters and). it's kind of weird to have both conceptions together in the same 256 byte character set.
14:54:09 <ais523> I think you can make it, although it might be hard to find a good set of commands
14:54:28 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137445 * Unname4798 * (+146) Created page with "{{PAGENAME}} is an esolang by Unname4798. The titles are getting too long! When you type this: sercret quine code It outputs: secret quine code"
14:54:36 <wWwwW> ais523 true. idk maybe it will just be subsititions but in that format
14:54:47 <ais523> b_jonas: but how else are you going to get the ¨n for your heavy metal album covers?
14:54:48 <wWwwW> idk what to name it
14:55:01 <ais523> probably some pun on "word chain"
14:55:24 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137446&oldid=137445 * Unname4798 * (+93)
14:55:30 <ais523> hmm… what if it's basically Thue, but a command is written as two words that are only one letter apart
14:55:32 <wWwwW> idk how to make puns tho
14:55:46 <ais523> or letter-space correspondence
14:55:55 <ais523> that will enforce the "change only one letter at a time" naturall
14:56:16 <ais523> then you require the entire program to be one long word chain, and add a rule that memory must be a list of real words
14:56:29 <wWwwW> letter-space correspondence? wut does that mean(ik im stubid but)
14:56:32 <ais523> this would be called something like "change chain" I guess
14:56:34 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, and french Ÿ and the rare welsh ẁẃỳýẀẂỲÝ
14:56:51 <ais523> wWwwW: I think I said the wrong thing, I meant you get to change letters into spaces and vice versa in your chain
14:57:04 <wWwwW> that would be cool
14:57:04 <ais523> so that you can have multiple words
14:57:20 <int-e> . o O ( word worm )
14:57:30 <wWwwW> ill just make a stubid pun
14:57:35 <ais523> that's a good name too
14:58:00 <wWwwW> can i use that int-e?
14:58:58 <int-e> up to you, it's just a name
14:59:15 <wWwwW> i dont wanna "steal" it
14:59:26 <b_jonas> the set is ASCII `~ (grave and tilde) then iso-8859-1 ¨¯´¸ (diaresis macron acute cedille) and possibly ° (ring) and then iso-8859-2 ˘˛ˇ˝ (brevis ogonek caron double-acute). I don't understand why the macron is in iso-8859-1 though.
14:59:30 <wWwwW> whats your esolang wiki profile(if you have one)?
14:59:34 <int-e> you are not stealing it, you have permission, with or without credit, I don't mind either way
14:59:39 <ais523> "Word Worm is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[User:Yayimhere]] and [[User:ais523]] and named by [[User:int-e]]"
14:59:56 <ais523> or, hmm, is that a lowercase or capital i on int-e?
15:00:05 <int-e> I prefer lower case.
15:00:09 <ais523> I think that's how we've done the credit in the past
15:00:21 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Int-e does that part right ;)
15:00:22 <b_jonas> and then unicode has a few more of these backspacing diacritics outside of these sets
15:00:42 <wWwwW> low or uppercase wut?
15:00:54 <ais523> right, the i on the link t the username
15:01:14 <int-e> wWwwW: no, like on the page itself where I put {{lowercase}}
15:01:17 <ais523> b_jonas: well Unicode has to contain all the characters in all the existing character sets
15:01:42 <esolangs> [[ bytes :lennyface:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137447&oldid=137443 * Unname4798 * (-1)
15:01:47 <int-e> Oh the link works all lower case too... I'll keep that in mind for next time.
15:02:18 <ais523> first character of a MediaWiki page name is case-insensitive, except if the sysadmin chooses for it not to be
15:02:19 <int-e> (has this changed in the past... hmm... 1-2 years?)
15:02:35 <ais523> this has been true since I first started using Wikipedia, decades ago
15:02:38 <b_jonas> ais523: supposedly. I think it doesn't have all characters from some of the PETscii versions, or at least the correpondence isn't always clear
15:03:01 <ais523> this is the only reason that {{lowercase}} works, it's based on {{DISPLAYTIYLE}} which isn't allowed to change the title to something that wouldn't work in al ink
15:03:32 <ais523> b_jonas: this is actually how emoji originally ended up in Unicode, and it kind-of took off from there
15:03:37 <int-e> s/Y/T/ (the -YLE threw me off)
15:03:40 <ais523> I did, should be DISPLAYTITLE
15:03:57 <int-e> though heh, that substitution would make it worse
15:04:02 <ais523> it was originally for compatibility with some obscure Japanese format for encoding text messages sent by mobile phones
15:04:32 <wWwwW> ik about displaytitle
15:05:23 <b_jonas> ais523: really? I thought it was because they got fed up with the workarounds that changed the displayed article title by some javascript magic or used a unicode lookalike
15:05:32 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:05:39 <b_jonas> and just implemented the sane solution
15:06:01 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I was talking about emoji in Unicode, not DISPLAYTITLE
15:06:19 <ais523> your memory of how DISPLAYTITLE came about is correct
15:06:36 <ais523> it used to be worse, the early versions involved absolute positioning and CSS
15:07:30 <b_jonas> yeah, because articles aren't allowed to include random javascript, so the javascript only worked when it was in the template
15:07:43 <ais523> no, templates aren't allowed to include random javascript either
15:07:45 <wWwwW> im working on article
15:07:54 <wWwwW> sould i send when im done?
15:08:07 <ais523> at the time it would have been MediaWiki:Common.js
15:08:10 <b_jonas> but some of the ultra-protected internal pages in I think the Wikimedia: namespace that define how everything is displayed
15:08:11 <ais523> wWwwW: you can submit it when it's written
15:08:17 <b_jonas> yeah, MediaWiki: namespaces
15:08:22 <ais523> * MediaWiki:Monobook.js
15:08:25 <ais523> it's Common.js nowadays
15:08:35 <esolangs> [[PAGENAME]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137448 * Unname4798 * (+349) Created page with "''The title of this article is not correct because of technical limitations. The correct title is actually '''<nowiki>{{PAGENAME}}</nowiki>''''' {{PAGENAME}} is an esolang made by Unname4798. It just outputs the page name if the program is a valid page name, otherwi
15:08:36 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/List]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137449&oldid=134893 * B jonas * (+91) 2C
15:09:31 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137450&oldid=137444 * Unname4798 * (+43)
15:09:42 <wWwwW> also not to annoy you but is uses unicode
15:09:45 <wWwwW> cuz i like unicode
15:09:55 <ais523> I like Unicode too, to some extent
15:10:10 <wWwwW> i use angle brackets:D
15:10:12 <ais523> I dislike some of its design decisions, but at least it can represent words that ASCII can't
15:10:17 <wWwwW> and whatever dp is
15:14:23 <wWwwW> i realized something
15:14:35 <wWwwW> only two symbols are needed for turing completness
15:15:10 <wWwwW> since BCT is turing complete
15:15:50 <ais523> there are various ways to be TC with two symbols in the program and two symbols in memory
15:16:03 <ais523> although, I think BCT is cheating a bit, it really has three commands and they're just written as 11, 10 and 0
15:16:52 <wWwwW> also in the esolang
15:16:58 <wWwwW> i added a single featurew
15:17:06 <wWwwW> contractions are decontracted
15:17:15 <wWwwW> to let the program grow
15:18:22 <ais523> I like that, although it might be hard to specify unambiguously
15:18:44 <wWwwW> i would add a table
15:18:54 <ais523> are there any English contractions that correspond to two different words? I vaguely remember that there are but can't think of one offhand (maybe it could be used as a random number generator)
15:19:06 <ais523> oh right, "I'd" can be short for either "I had" or "I would", I think
15:19:07 <esolangs> [[NameError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137451&oldid=137441 * Unname4798 * (+2)
15:19:30 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/I'd says it can be "I should", too
15:19:53 <ais523> another alternative is to treat the string as ending with infinitely many spaces, and allow people to change a space at the end of a word into a letter
15:20:00 <wWwwW> i just love that in a interview for a esolang creator he said we dont have errors, we have undefined behavior
15:20:02 <ais523> and grow the string that way
15:20:03 <b_jonas> also "I'll" can be "I will" or "I shall" and "he's" can be "he is" or "he has"
15:20:41 <ais523> b_jonas: "I shall" is arguably not part of the language any more, it used to be that children were taught a lot of complicated rules for when it was correct to use it, but nowadays nobody bothers
15:21:14 <b_jonas> I sometimes say "shall" but I certainly don't use it the same way as old grammar books claim it should be used
15:21:39 <b_jonas> though I admit "shall" is the least common among "will, shall, would, should" in how I use them
15:22:12 <ais523> I vaguely think the old rule is something along the lines of "when applied to most subjects, 'will' produces future tense and 'shall' produces an imperative, but for 'I' as the subject it's the other way round"
15:22:27 <ais523> but you can also use the wrong one for emphasis
15:22:41 <ais523> but I am not surprised that hardly anyone does this in practice
15:23:15 <ais523> it is also strange that "would" and "should" are technically the past tenses of "will" and "shall" but have entirely different meanings, which makes you wonder if they're really past tenses at all
15:23:21 -!- Ae has quit (Quit: Bye).
15:23:54 <wWwwW> holee this went a little bot of the rails
15:24:12 <ais523> the conversation, or the esolang? or both?
15:24:30 <ais523> esolangs often end up going places you don't expect, especially if you're mixing them with something poorly-defined like the English language
15:24:46 <wWwwW> ais523 yes with the esolang thing
15:24:57 -!- Ae has joined.
15:25:06 <b_jonas> eh, I'm fine with those auxiliary verb stuff being irregular. will, would, can, could, shall, should, may, might, ought
15:25:35 <ais523> is ought the past tense of anything?
15:25:59 <b_jonas> I don't think ought is past
15:26:55 <ais523> my dictionary says that etymologically it's the past tense of "own", and at one point in history it was the past tense of "owe"
15:27:06 <wWwwW> you own a dictionary?!?!
15:27:10 <b_jonas> I mean "would" and "should" and "could" are reasonable past tenses simply because English sometimes uses past tense in conditionals
15:27:15 <wWwwW> nobody i know does that
15:27:24 <b_jonas> of course I own a dictionary! I have three on the shelf next to me
15:28:09 <int-e> . o O ( welcome to people who grew up without smart phones )
15:28:12 <ais523> I do own several paper dictionaries but I generally use computerised ones nowadays
15:28:53 <b_jonas> I mean if you're not nomadic and have a bookshelf why wouldn't you own a dictionary
15:28:54 <ais523> when I was at school, a dictionary was one of the items I was supposed to carry with me to lessons
15:29:29 <wWwwW> what a contraction
15:29:30 <b_jonas> really? I don't think I was ever supposed to carry a dictionary, except to the language exams
15:29:43 <ais523> I imagine different schools have different rules
15:30:08 <int-e> wWwwW: using a paper dictionary is easy to learn... but there's no real reason to anymore
15:30:42 <wWwwW> im done with the contraction cuz else ill go insane
15:30:46 <wWwwW> not in newtons way tho
15:31:43 <int-e> . o O ( remember phone books? )
15:31:51 <ais523> I tried to learn how to use a dictionary for Chinese – this is a more helpful skill than for English because Chinese characters you don't know are almost impossible to enter into a computer if they aren't in a copy-pasteable form already
15:32:09 <ais523> int-e: yes, although they were already mostly useless by the time I was growin up
15:32:11 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137452 * Yayimhere * (+1240) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''Word Worm''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[User:Yayimhere]] and [[User:ais523]] and named by [[User:int-e]] based on the children's game word chain == types == there are two types: * letters which are letters in the memory (a
15:32:43 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137453&oldid=137452 * Yayimhere * (+3)
15:33:21 <ais523> wWwwW: oh, I think you need at least a little context-sensitivity for the letter replacements, although maybe the contraction-expansions are enough
15:34:46 <wWwwW> unless one of the word s that would be replaced in is equal to x
15:35:10 <b_jonas> wait, what letter replacements? in cellular automata? to enter chinese characters? to look up words in a dictionary? to transliterate a script to another?
15:35:15 -!- ajal has changed nick to amby.
15:35:25 <b_jonas> I guess I need a little context for your statement
15:35:52 <wWwwW> ah its about our esolang
15:35:53 <ais523> b_jonas: see the most recent new page, as posted by esolangs
15:37:15 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137454&oldid=137453 * Yayimhere * (+114)
15:37:28 <b_jonas> oh nice, I can stop temporarily ignoring those because you banned Tommyaweosme indefinitely
15:38:00 <int-e> ais523: Oh I think the lower/upper case confusion I had was really about the links in generated pages like page histories, where user names are always capitalized.
15:39:46 <ais523> I did ban them from the sandbox, specifically
15:40:24 <b_jonas> ah, you just banned it from one page
15:41:29 <wWwwW> if any of you can make a usefull program ill be very happty AND suprized:)
15:43:39 <ais523> are people allowed to add more contractions to the page? or is that the complete list?
15:44:10 <ais523> you tend to design your esolangs on the side of maximum difficulty to program in, so it might take a while before anyone makes a serious attempt
15:44:25 <wWwwW> just maybe ask me in discussion
15:44:55 <wWwwW> ais523 true.also this was inspired by an odd string rewriting esolang
15:45:02 <wWwwW> or whatever it was called
15:48:18 <ais523> oh, it's sub-TC – once you split a word into two words, those words no longer have a way to interact with each other, so all that matters is which words exist in the string, not how many
15:48:40 <ais523> so there's only finite storage
15:50:08 <wWwwW> i have an command idea
15:50:25 <wWwwW> just cuz i rlly want it to be TC
15:50:30 <int-e> wWwwW: this one? https://esolangs.org/wiki/An_Odd_Rewriting_System
15:51:24 <int-e> (yeah context was 6 minutes ago)
15:53:01 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137455&oldid=137454 * Yayimhere * (+146)
15:54:54 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137456&oldid=137081 * Yayimhere * (+16)
15:55:24 <wWwwW> hey ais523 shouldnt word worm be added to your language list
15:55:35 <wWwwW> since you created it with me
15:55:40 <ais523> I don't put every language I was involved with there
15:58:52 <wWwwW> ill make a program and try it out
15:59:11 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137457&oldid=137455 * Yayimhere * (+15)
16:00:56 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137458&oldid=137457 * Yayimhere * (+101)
16:05:12 <wWwwW> wats the most usefull esolang?
16:07:14 <ais523> useful for proving things: probably tag systems or The Waterfall Model
16:07:24 <wWwwW> testing if something is consistent
16:07:26 <ais523> useful for programming in: probably Befunge-98
16:07:47 <ais523> I'm not sure there are many (or any?) esolangs that do consistency testing
16:08:09 <wWwwW> that would be interesting to create
16:08:13 <ais523> some people have written Turing machines that test whether certain proof systems are consistent
16:08:27 <wWwwW> but there are no esolangs
16:08:31 <ais523> because, a proof system can't prove itself consistent (unless it's actually inconsistent), so it can't prove that the Turing machine doesn't halt
16:08:56 <b_jonas> the most useful one is MMIX because it'll be used for teaching a hundred thousand programmers essential programming knowledge by the glorious final edition of TAOCP; except that the part that's esoteric is the part that's not used for such teaching
16:09:38 <b_jonas> the teaching part should be as non-esoteric as possible to be useful for teaching
16:10:04 <ais523> esolangs can be useful for teaching
16:10:11 <b_jonas> I guess you could quote https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer because it was used to teach young programmers back when they had very few opportunities to learn programming and to run programs
16:10:43 <ais523> there are people who find regular programming languages hard to understand but can work much more easily with BF, for example
16:11:07 <b_jonas> ais523: teaching in general, sure, but I think for teaching programming it's the better the less esoteric the language is. could still work with some esoteric, but you should aim to make it less esoteric
16:13:56 <wWwwW> anybody who wants to try making such a esolang for testing consitency
16:14:57 <b_jonas> teaching with esoteric features is the reason why we meet people who get confused about how to write fizzbuzz because they skipped right to the two-thirds of "Evolution of a programmer" before learning how to use a numeric for loop
16:15:11 <ais523> b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Waduzitdo was created for teaching too, I think
16:15:34 <wWwwW> ik thta for a fact
16:19:59 <b_jonas> obviously sometimes practical access trumps esotericness, like if all you have as a child to prorgam on is a SHARP EL-5120 calculator then it's better to use its built-in interpreter no matter how it has esoteric features like `IF =N` working as a shortcut for `IF 0=N` but `IF <N` being a syntax error, because you can't realistically have someone write a better interpreter, burn it into an eprom, and
16:20:05 <b_jonas> replace the tiny epoxy-covered blob at the middle replaced by an entire huge printed circuit board hanging outside the chassis to fix those esoteric features
16:20:21 <b_jonas> and it won't be Turing-complete because having only 2 kilobytes of RAM is noticable even when you're a child writing programs
16:21:24 <b_jonas> and that's before you realize how if you subtract two numbers that differ in the last two digits of the mantissa you get an exact zero, so you can *almost* but not quite reliably handle arithmetic on 12-digit integers but it fails in those few weird cases
16:22:30 <b_jonas> (not to mention how there's no built-in indexing so you have to write weird loops to best simulate an array)
16:22:54 <b_jonas> (like cyclic shift registers with 8 to 10 built-in numbers)
16:23:31 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137459&oldid=137432 * Ractangle * (-14) /* Commands */
16:23:59 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Waduzitdo => huh, I hadn't seen this one yet
16:24:51 <b_jonas> to be clear I was not this limited, I had access to a 386 PC with somewhat usable interpreter and compiler software for the decade
16:25:02 <b_jonas> the programmable pocket calculator came later
16:27:53 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137460&oldid=137459 * Ractangle * (-19) /* Commands */
16:29:48 <wWwwW> i have another esolang idea. can i get feedback or...?
16:30:42 <wWwwW> i eed google translate
16:31:17 <wWwwW> where you have two sides of the string
16:31:31 <wWwwW> then their power level of symbols is defined
16:31:38 <wWwwW> the one with the highest grows fatser
16:31:45 <wWwwW> the one who has the most copies
16:31:56 <wWwwW> and the loser dies
16:32:22 <ais523> there are a few competitive esolangs like that
16:32:37 <wWwwW> spesifically with tug of war
16:32:59 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137461&oldid=137458 * Yayimhere * (+52) /* examples */
16:32:59 <ais523> strangely we don't have an article on Core War, but https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust is fun
16:33:07 <wWwwW> very loose concept rn
16:33:33 <ais523> I find it hard to see how a tug of war would work because don't you just win that by pulling as hard as possible? so it'd be about writing whatever program had the most power
16:33:48 <ais523> and there wouldn't be much strategy
16:33:56 <wWwwW> no not like a game
16:34:06 <wWwwW> but as how the programming lang works
16:34:27 <wWwwW> but also with other rule
16:34:44 <ais523> so the result of the tug of war is used to compute, somehow?
16:35:12 <wWwwW> with some other stuff
16:35:21 <ais523> this reminds me of evolutionary programming
16:35:31 <wWwwW> it is kinda like that
16:35:32 <ais523> but I'm not sure there have been any successful esolangs like that
16:35:48 <ais523> other than https://esolangs.org/wiki/Biota which is successful in the sense that its creator got money for it
16:36:06 <wWwwW> money for a esolang??????
16:36:33 <wWwwW> but like basic logic
16:36:41 <wWwwW> you set up two qeues int he string
16:36:41 <ais523> it was very early in the history of esolangs, that might have something to do with it
16:37:23 <wWwwW> each has a single symbol
16:37:45 <wWwwW> ill write it down then ill give a link
16:37:54 <wWwwW> cuz its kinda hard to explain in chat
16:40:29 <b_jonas> wWwwW: you know in abtract that you can sell lots of copies of software, each for affordably cheap but with lots of buyers together it adds up, and so you can make a business from developing software, right? it's mostly about video games, but works for other software too. that existed even as far back as the 1980s when lots of people started to have personal computers, except software was sold on
16:40:35 <b_jonas> cartridges or disks or tape rather than downloaded from app stores or game installer frameworks like Steam.
16:40:51 <b_jonas> floppies sent by mail, and cartridges sold or lent out in physical stores
16:41:20 <b_jonas> you can absolutely sell Game of life implementation as a fun toy, and other esolangs too
16:41:32 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137462&oldid=137460 * Ractangle * (-35) /* Commands */
16:41:56 <b_jonas> or, you know, a simulation video game that happens to have an esoteric language in them
16:42:07 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137463&oldid=137462 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Commands */
16:42:25 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137464&oldid=137463 * Ractangle * (-14)
16:45:39 <b_jonas> Microsoft got rich from selling five generations of (non-esoteric) BASIC interpreters, and they were so popular that each one had to include partial compatibility with some of the weird features in the previous generations just because people already knew them
16:46:17 <wWwwW> so first we have string in this structure:
16:46:18 <wWwwW> blahblahblah()blahblahblah
16:46:18 <wWwwW> then we set the power level of each in the program
16:46:19 <wWwwW> the symbols closest to the brackets are moved in and they play. lets say one symbol as n and another k
16:46:20 <wWwwW> they copy each other by n and k each iteration until one has more copies tha the other. then the copies are deleted and the powerlevels of each symbol powerlevels are set to the number of copies. then the symbols are moved to the end of the two queues or whatever
16:46:20 <wWwwW> halt if nobody wins
16:46:23 <b_jonas> they're only just recently trying to phase out BASIC by replacing it with javascript
16:47:41 <ais523> b_jonas: wow, those languages are so different – JS is probably not an easy language to learn first, or at all for that matter, whereas BASIC is overly simplistic and can make it hard to learn a followup language
16:48:02 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137465&oldid=137464 * Ractangle * (-17) /* Commands */
16:48:18 <ais523> wWwwW: hmm, I imagine that would depend a lot on the details – wouldn't one or other of the symbols end up winning immediately?
16:48:35 <wWwwW> just the very basic idea
16:48:48 <ais523> although, you effectively have a two-queues language which is quite similar to cyclic tag (which in effect has a command queue and a data queue), so there might be a way to make it work
16:50:31 <b_jonas> I kind of hate javascript because of how easy it makes to write bad programs because its defaults are bad, and harder to learn the programming style that actually lets you write good programs. It's kind of the same problem that C++ has, but I think it's worse. Javascript still doesn't have a built-in array type where accessing past the end of the array immediately raises an error. Now you can argue that
16:50:37 <b_jonas> it's still an improvement over VBA, but I'm not convinced.
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16:51:13 <b_jonas> On the plus side, you can just access the same COM API from Java or C# or whatever if you want a language that doesn't start with so many bad defaults.
16:51:52 <ais523> if you're using an array as a "hash table from integers", reading/writing past the end isn't a logical error, is it?
16:52:02 <ais523> you just get a "key not found" when reading, and add a new key/value pair when writing
16:52:05 <b_jonas> Also I'm earning money partly from programming MS's VBScript, which I didn't even count among the five generations, and which crashes on X=&H7FFFFFFF\-1
16:52:20 <ais523> b_jonas: not even a divide error?
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16:52:49 <ais523> I guess 1/0 is a divide error in the language and INT_MIN/-1 is a divide error in the interpreter
16:52:51 <b_jonas> ais523: no. it catches basically all other arithmetic errors and raises either a Type error or a Divide by zero or some other exception, but they messed up that one case somehow
16:52:55 <ais523> although, that isn't even INT_MIN, it's INT_MIN+1
16:53:09 <ais523> err, it's INT_MAX, sorry
16:53:13 <ais523> are you sure you wrote the right number?
16:53:18 <b_jonas> no, INT_MIN/-1 implicitly upgrades to doubles
16:53:30 <b_jonas> no, I wrote the wrong number, you're right, it's X=&H80000000\-1
16:53:49 <ais523> (and 0x80000000 is INT_MIN)
16:54:46 <ais523> I am not sure why symmetrical integers (where 0x80000001 is INT_MIN and 0x80000000 is a trap representation) never really caught on
16:55:23 <ais523> probably because processors like to use the same commands for signed and unsigned arithmetic, when possible?
16:55:43 <ais523> I guess sNaN never really caught on either
16:56:23 <ais523> how do sNaNs work on x86(_64)?
16:57:02 <b_jonas> ais523: because 2s' complement integers let you easily implement multiprecision arithmetic, which is very significant if you're writing a BASIC with a 32-bit integer type, a 32-bit float type, and a 64-bit float type (besides the usual 16-bit integer type) that can run on a 286
16:57:53 <ais523> b_jonas: this is 2's complement, just with one invalid representation
16:58:09 <ais523> in multiprecision arithmetic, all the digits are unsigned other than the most significant, so it would still work
16:58:44 <ais523> oh, I see – you're talking about BASIC in particular, which doesn't have unsigned integers
17:00:02 <b_jonas> SNANs work just fine on x86_64 (except possibly if you're using some obsolete instruction extensions), except for the part where if you use SSE/AVX operations then the result for binary arithmetic operations like add subtract multiply divide min max with two nan inputs uses a rule that's inconvenient for the programmer becauase it makes addition not commutative (it was probably convenient in the first
17:00:08 <b_jonas> hardware implementations of SSE)
17:00:25 <b_jonas> s/in the first hardware impelmentations/for developing the first hardware implementations/
17:00:48 <wWwwW> is it possible for dis to be turing complete?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_fish
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17:02:05 <b_jonas> mind you, this isn't because SSE has a particularly bad rules. almost all floating-point implementations other than x87 either use a similarly bad rule for two NaN inputs, or fold all NaNs to just a single NaN representation
17:02:16 <b_jonas> (or they don't have NaNs at all)
17:05:28 <ais523> b_jonas: well, with sNaNs the result doesn't really matter because you'd expect the program to crash anyway, it's qNaNs where the result matters
17:07:34 <b_jonas> sure, the problem about result of binary ops with two NaN inputs is the same with just qNaNs. an SNaN input gets downgraded to a qNaN while raising an exception before that part.
17:08:27 <ais523> but that's like caring about the state of registers after a segfault
17:08:40 <ais523> there are programs that do it, but most programs want to exit on a crash anyway
17:11:10 <b_jonas> ais523: no, usually you just mask the exception, clear the status register, and read the status register to see if any invalid op exception was raised by reading the status register. floating point exceptions default to being masked everywhere in low-level stuff, like in a C program or the x86 ABIs. you need extra work to unmask the exceptions so that they raise a unix signal or x86 interrupt, which is
17:11:16 <b_jonas> extra effort that you almost never do.
17:12:12 <b_jonas> ais523: most of the time you only read the result and never read the status register, but SNaNs (as separate from QNaNs) are only useful if you do read the status register to know if an invalid operation exception was raised from using a SNaN
17:13:36 <esolangs> [[Pointstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137466&oldid=137362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* Interpreter */ Wrap text
17:14:35 <ais523> if the exception is unmasked, what do OSes translate it to? I'm guessing SIGFPE, based on the name
17:15:01 <ais523> it is strange that SIGFPE, in practice, is almost always raised only by integer divisions rather than floating point operations
17:16:04 <ais523> ooh, now I'm wondering whether you could do something clever with the inexact flag, like emulating int arithmetic with float arithmetic and checking for overflow across a range of instructions
17:18:10 <b_jonas> exactly. the whole idea where you can unmask floating-point exceptions so they raise an interrupt is at least obsolete, and possibly was always a bad idea. that's probably why unix never even bothered to add a separate signal for it and just reuses the division by zero signal. they don't ban you from unmasking interrupts, because that's a CPU feature and they don't just ban CPU features without a good
17:18:16 <b_jonas> reason, but they don't support it even to the minor part where the two exceptions that x86 does distinguish translate to different signals.
17:18:32 <b_jonas> (admittedly that was *partly* because they ran out of 32 signal numbers and didn't want to extend to more than 32, but still)
17:18:36 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137467&oldid=137465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) Categories
17:19:55 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137468&oldid=137461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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17:20:58 <esolangs> [[ bytes :lennyface:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137469&oldid=137447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+159) Categories
17:21:56 <esolangs> [[PAGENAME]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137470&oldid=137448 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) Nowiki, category
17:22:31 <ais523> wWwwW: the article is ambiguous
17:22:31 <esolangs> [[PAGENAME]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137471&oldid=137470 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-94) Template
17:22:50 <ais523> because you've grouped instructions symmetrically, it means that some of them can't be determined from the spec
17:22:55 <ais523> e.g. the first command could turn either left or right
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17:23:42 <wWwwW> just forget tht esolang
17:24:01 <wWwwW> also i tried to make rectangle better
17:24:34 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137472&oldid=137446 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+161) Categories
17:26:13 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137473&oldid=137431 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+179) Categories
17:26:31 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137474&oldid=137473 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) See also
17:27:15 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137475&oldid=137434 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+267) See also, categories
17:28:28 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137476&oldid=137438 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+283) See also, categories
17:28:54 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137477&oldid=137472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Category
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17:31:27 <wWwwW> but can you check it out agian ais523?
17:31:55 <esolangs> [[Futuri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137479&oldid=137430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) Categories
17:35:17 <ais523> wWwwW: the article is better but I still don't fully understand how real/imaginary works on the second and subsequent cycles
17:36:48 <ais523> well, your rules start again after the second rectangle is made
17:36:51 <ais523> that's what I'm calling a cycle
17:37:15 <wWwwW> what spesifically dont you understand?
17:37:24 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137480&oldid=137468 * Yayimhere * (+149) /* examples */
17:38:27 <ais523> what rule is used for deciding which tiles/symbols are real and which are imaginary
17:38:31 <ais523> after the first time through
17:38:54 <wWwwW> the same as before
17:39:39 <ais523> so it re-scans the rectangle for symbols where all the neighbours are the same?
17:40:37 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137481&oldid=137398 * Yayimhere * (+4) /* generating the rectangle */
17:40:58 <wWwwW> thats a part of my expentioal "conjecture"
17:44:02 <wWwwW> hey ais523 in your 90 esolang it says it has unknown comp class. but its also total. thats a comp class
17:45:01 <ais523> I didn't add the total category
17:45:22 <ais523> PythonshellDebugwindow, it seems
17:45:32 <ais523> it is ambiguous because the program affects how other programs operate
17:45:54 <ais523> so the 90 interpreter always deterministically exits, being TC – but it could potentially induce other programs to become TC in the process
17:46:53 <wWwwW> a interesting version of unknown computational class
17:47:06 <wWwwW> i would say that should be a category
17:47:15 <wWwwW> varible computational class
17:47:24 <esolangs> [[90]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137482&oldid=75560 * Ais523 * (-18) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/75560|75560]] by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) the 90 process itself halts deterministically but the program continues running in other processes that it has just modified
17:48:20 <ais523> unfortunately I don't have an example program for you, it is a difficult language to write in, especially because if you make a mistake you might quite possibly need to reboot your computer
17:48:24 <ais523> and it runs differently on different machines
17:49:33 <wWwwW> maybe on a virtual amchine
17:49:44 <wWwwW> just a C64 sim or somethin?
17:50:17 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137483&oldid=137467 * Ractangle * (+44) /* Commands */
17:50:21 <wWwwW> so maybe for that? or...
17:51:53 <ais523> it's possible but would be a lot of work, especially as VMs don't have many running processes to interfere with
17:55:54 <wWwwW> also wanna make an esolang maybe idk?
17:56:22 <wWwwW> im too proporally stupid
17:57:04 <ais523> I made one earlier today, I haven't written the article yet
17:57:32 <ais523> but it's basically https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic except with rationals, and using rational division instead of floor-division
17:57:36 <wWwwW> i meant with me(im and idiot ig)
17:58:11 <ais523> it takes me a while to make esolangs normally
17:58:16 <ais523> I typically only make a few in a year
17:58:21 <ais523> and sometimes they take months to make properly
17:59:17 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag took years to prove Turing-complete and I ended up having to invent another esolang to use in the proof
18:23:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Translated Esolang War II]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137484 * Unname4798 * (+2850) Created page with "< Span style="font family:with serifs;color:black; font size: 60 horizontally;editing settings:centered;">fighting game<<> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The author is[[user:PrySigneToFry|< span style="color:blue; displayed: yellow
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18:24:55 <HackEso> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
18:25:21 <int-e> Hmm, not what I was looking for
18:25:34 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/ais523
18:26:14 <ais523> what *were* you looking for?
18:26:34 <HackEso> Amelia Earhart? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:27:52 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137487&oldid=137480 * Yayimhere * (+89) /* examples */
18:28:43 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137488&oldid=137195 * Yayimhere * (+91) /* RECT4n=GLE */
18:30:19 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137489&oldid=137488 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* word worm */
18:30:36 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137490&oldid=137487 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* examples */
18:33:13 <int-e> ais523: the name of an unfinished esolang that IIRC was revolving around bootstrapping/self-interpretation
18:33:36 <ais523> int-e: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
18:33:40 <ais523> it's there, just obscure
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18:34:26 <int-e> "Feather subsequently became something of an inside joke in #esoteric," -- this is why I thought it would be in your wisdom entry. But it isn't and never was.
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18:34:42 <esolangs> [[Core War]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137491 * Ais523 * (+21) redirect from the name of the competition to the esolang it's based on
18:34:51 <HackEso> dinosaur:Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers. \ feather:A feather is something that can be found on most birds. It is responsible for their ability to not spontaneously float, seeing as how feathers are made of osmium. Penguins and ostriches have more feathers than most other birds, many of which are internal.
18:35:03 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137492&oldid=137490 * Yayimhere * (+14) /* examples */
18:35:26 <ais523> int-e: it's expressed as "avian body covering"
18:35:30 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137493&oldid=137489 * Yayimhere * (-211) /* word worm */
18:35:39 <ais523> the joke was so-well known that it was assumed to be too obvious to write it straight off
18:35:41 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137494&oldid=137493 * Yayimhere * (+212) /* RECT4n=GLE */
18:36:03 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137495&oldid=137494 * Yayimhere * (+10) /* word worm */
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18:36:09 <int-e> ais523: Oh. That flew right over my head. I guess it grew a body.
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18:48:45 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137496&oldid=137495 * Yayimhere * (+4) /* word worm */
19:12:40 <wWwwW> is computation even possible in this?:
19:12:40 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Func()
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19:28:02 <esolangs> [[Txet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137498&oldid=132733 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8) /* interpreter */
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19:35:07 <esolangs> [[Txet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137500&oldid=137499 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-3) /* interpreter */
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20:06:57 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137504&oldid=135273 * Ractangle * (-93)
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22:02:41 <esolangs> [[Txet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137507&oldid=137501 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* interpreter */
22:03:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:Undelta.jpg]]"
22:06:38 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137509&oldid=136293 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+40) /* Modulo */
22:06:49 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137510&oldid=137509 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Modulo */
22:07:58 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137511&oldid=137510 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+10) /* Math */
22:12:35 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137512 * Ractangle * (+442) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{wrongtitle|title=[[File:Undelta.jpg|50px]]}} '''Undelta''' is an esolang created by [[User:Ractangle]] when the creator got his new phone (actually it's being made in it right now) ==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" ! Symbol !! Action |- | ~ || Pop the top of th
22:28:08 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: Client closed).
22:30:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:End]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137513&oldid=134098 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14)
22:39:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137514&oldid=137008 * Tommyaweosme * (+122)
22:39:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137515&oldid=137514 * Tommyaweosme * (+164)
22:43:18 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:43:31 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/unproblematic signature test]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137516 * Tommyaweosme * (+164) Created page with "bring back the old sandbox please ~~~~ : no we all hate you -ass23"
22:44:01 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/unproblematic signature test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137517&oldid=137516 * Tommyaweosme * (+1)
22:47:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/unproblematic signature test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137518&oldid=137517 * Tommyaweosme * (+26)
22:52:24 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137519&oldid=136647 * Tommyaweosme * (+13) just letting people know how many floods of salt they need to take with the external link to... evilwiki
22:53:37 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137520&oldid=137519 * Ais523 * (-31) I agree that making it clear that links go to Wikipedia is a good idea, but there's an easier way to do it (consistently with the User: links)
23:04:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Example of markov chain.png]]": darkmode enabled
23:05:18 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137522&oldid=137520 * Tommyaweosme * (+80)
23:21:38 <ais523> oh gah, that image is clearly a derivative of one taken from somewhere, but it's used in so many places I can't find the original source
23:22:50 <ais523> ah, I bet it's Wikipedia, lots of people copy from there
23:23:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Example of markov chain.png]]": Copyright violation: derivative of https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Markovkate_01.svg (which is CC-by-sa-3.0 and not public domain)
23:24:28 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137523&oldid=137522 * Ais523 * (-80) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/137522|137522]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) the added image was a copyright infringement (being a clear derivative of an image from Wikipedia, despite not being an exact copy)
23:26:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137524&oldid=137104 * Ais523 * (+451) /* Copyright violation */ new section
23:26:59 <ais523> the Wikipedia image said "own work" and that is enough to convince me – Wikipedia's normally quite good at catching people who are lying about that sort of hting
23:27:27 <ais523> so having been there for over 11 years, it is likely to be a true claim
23:46:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137525&oldid=137524 * Tommyaweosme * (+157) /* Copyright violation */
23:51:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137526&oldid=137525 * Ais523 * (+981) /* Copyright violation */ Wikimedia Commons images are generally still copyrighted