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01:38:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137527&oldid=137526 * Tommyaweosme * (+189)
01:39:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137528&oldid=137527 * Tommyaweosme * (+2)
01:45:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137529&oldid=137528 * None1 * (+338) /* Copyright violation */
01:51:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137530&oldid=137243 * Tommyaweosme * (+3382)
01:52:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137531&oldid=137529 * Tommyaweosme * (+205) /* Copyright violation */
01:54:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137532&oldid=136991 * Tommyaweosme * (+218)
01:56:51 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137533&oldid=137532 * Tommyaweosme * (-244)
02:02:23 <esolangs> [[Kcidea]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137534 * Tommyaweosme * (+470) Created page with "{{lowercase}}kcidea is a language that makes you feel immense pain like you are on fire when you use it. it is comparable to the active denial system. == commands == the only people stupid enough to use this have provided documentation for ''some'' of these commands:
02:03:05 <esolangs> [[Kcidea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137535&oldid=137534 * Tommyaweosme * (+52)
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02:54:46 <esolangs> [[Dotfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137536&oldid=137332 * None1 * (+109) /* Why is it brain-exploding */
03:10:27 <esolangs> [[... Bottles of beer on the wall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137537 * None1 * (+29731) Created page with "... Bottles of beer on the wall is an even more brain-exploding [[brainfuck]] derivative by [[User:None1]]. It is like [[Bottles of beer on the wall]]. But instead of numbers, you use dots! ==Examples== ===One time [[Cat Program]]=== <pre> ......
03:10:42 <esolangs> [[... Bottles of beer on the wall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137538&oldid=137537 * None1 * (-1) /* Cat program] */
03:11:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137539&oldid=137286 * None1 * (+38) /* Non-alphabetic */
03:12:03 <esolangs> [[... Bottles of beer on the wall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137540&oldid=137538 * None1 * (+6)
03:12:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137541&oldid=137272 * None1 * (+120) /* My Esolangs */
03:14:16 <esolangs> [[Dead fish +- +.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137542&oldid=137274 * None1 * (+45)
03:17:59 <esolangs> [[PlusOrOutput]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137543&oldid=118648 * None1 * (+1) /* Hello World */
03:20:45 <esolangs> [[PlusOrOutput]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137544&oldid=137543 * None1 * (+1013) /* Interpreter for PlusOrOutput only (in Python) */ Add interpreters in JS
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03:29:01 <zzo38> Which file format can be used if I want a key/value database which is mostly reading and not writing, and the key and value are both sequences of bytes, and that if you find a specific record then you can easily find all records that have the same key as a prefix (and that you can also do so even if there is no such record for the requested key)?
03:39:44 <ais523> zzo38: the last property you talk about sounds like a B+ tree; I know there are database formats based on those
03:40:37 <ais523> if write performance is completely unimportant you could use a list of key/value pairs sorted by the key, and use binary search to find entries
03:42:06 <ais523> if you're looking for more of a standard file format, SQLite should work, storing one table with an index on the key
03:43:09 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137545&oldid=127630 * None1 * (+39) /* Introduction */ PIO and POO are now supported
03:46:45 <esolangs> [[PlusOrOutput]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137546&oldid=137544 * None1 * (+4570) /* Interpreters for both languages in JavaScript */
03:55:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated Shakespeare]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137547 * None1 * (+264) Created page with "You can translate using the wrong language to get wierd translations. --~~~~"
03:56:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137548&oldid=137515 * None1 * (+215)
04:01:24 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with an iterating quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137549 * None1 * (+594) Created page with "'''NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with an iterating quine''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is [[NameErro
04:03:56 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137550&oldid=137260 * None1 * (+443) /* Error simulators */
04:07:23 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137551&oldid=137541 * None1 * (+854) /* My Esolangs */
04:08:17 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137552&oldid=137551 * None1 * (+30)
04:09:05 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137553&oldid=137552 * None1 * (+36) /* My Esolangs */
04:09:11 <esolangs> [[C@++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137554&oldid=133820 * BoundedBeans * (+861) Made the language much more powerful/expressive with new commands
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04:13:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137555&oldid=134527 * None1 * (+313) /* + interpreter using Nope. */
04:15:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137556&oldid=137555 * None1 * (+121) /* + interpreter using Nope. */
04:17:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:C@]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137557&oldid=109970 * None1 * (+275)
04:17:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:C@]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137558&oldid=137557 * None1 * (+12)
04:18:18 <esolangs> [[C@++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137559&oldid=137554 * BoundedBeans * (+353) Added some examples
04:21:54 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137560&oldid=135046 * BoundedBeans * (+123)
04:22:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137561&oldid=137539 * BoundedBeans * (+25)
04:30:57 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137562&oldid=137269 * None1 * (+25)
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04:41:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137563&oldid=137506 * None1 * (+340)
04:45:51 <zzo38> Write performance is not completely unimportant, but read performance is more important. I would also expect that when writes occur, several records will be written at once rather than one at a time (although one at a time is also possible, but less likely).
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04:58:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: if write preformance is *completely* unimportant then you should sort the whole table after each write and do some kind of binary search among sorted records for reading. but a writable B-tree isn't really much worse than that.
04:59:28 <b_jonas> and I think sqlite3 might work decently for what you want
05:01:00 <zzo38> I had considered the SQLite4 format, which is a real key/value database unlike SQLite3.
05:01:17 <b_jonas> well... it's not perfect, if you can have multiples of the key then it might not be the best format, or you need some kind of trick for it where you append a unique identifier column and make the two columns together the primary key, so that you can have just one table WITHOUT ROWID table, rather than a table and a separate index
05:02:32 <b_jonas> if not then you have to put them in one single column where you artificially append something to your key to make it unique
05:03:58 <b_jonas> mind you, the separate index mostly just makes the write performance worse if you make that index contain all columns
05:04:08 <b_jonas> so even a normal table can work
05:05:25 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess just use a normal table with an index covering both the key and value columns, and don't make the key primary or unique since you want to allow it to repeat
05:07:57 <b_jonas> if you want to find all records with a prefix then write a comparison like WHERE key BETWEEN ?1 AND ?2 but you bind ?2 to the same as ?1 incremented by 1 when interpreted as a big-endian number
05:08:24 <b_jonas> so it's as if WHERE key BETWEEN 'one' AND 'onf'
05:08:36 <b_jonas> only you probably use blobs instead of strings
05:10:43 <zzo38> Yes, that would do, although SQL is more than is needed, I think, especially if it is merely a key/value database. I do understand what you mean and had thought of that too but it seems much more complicated than it should be.
05:11:13 <b_jonas> it certainly is, but you don't need to use all the features
05:12:07 <b_jonas> also make sure to read https://sqlite.org/howtocompile.html
05:12:50 <b_jonas> there's a lot of optional features that you usually needn't compile into sqlite3 if you aren't like making debian with a thousand packages depending on sqlite3, and they now have good documentation describing these compile-time settings
05:15:14 <b_jonas> (you've probably read it already, but the documentation is kind of new so I want to mention it)
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05:38:41 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137564&oldid=132867 * PrySigneToFry * (+73) Fixed [[wenyan]] interpreter
05:39:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137565&oldid=136954 * PrySigneToFry * (+35)
05:44:11 <esolangs> [[Translated Die Deutsche Programmiersprache]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137566 * None1 * (+2563) Created page with "There have been lots of horribly translations of esolangs in English and Chinese, this time let's translate one that isn't. '''Translated Die Deutsche Programmiersprache''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is [[Die Deutsche
05:45:06 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137567&oldid=137550 * None1 * (+118) /* Horribly translated variants */
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05:46:53 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137568&oldid=137553 * None1 * (+88) /* My Esolangs */
06:00:57 <esolangs> [[Foo : The term 'foo' is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Check the spelling of the name, or if a path was included, verify that the path is correct and try again.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137569&oldid=131324 * None1 * (+33) /* See also */
06:01:52 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137570&oldid=133843 * Yayimhere * (-2222) /* Triangular CPU */
06:02:18 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137571&oldid=137570 * Yayimhere * (-226) /* idea 2 */
06:04:12 <esolangs> [[Is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Check the spelling of the name, or if a path was included, verify that the path is correct and try again.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137572&oldid=131489 * None1 * (-14) /* Examples */ no spaces
06:13:08 <esolangs> [[Wow owo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137573 * Yayimhere * (+3332) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''wow owo''' is a [[Cellular automaton]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]] while bored == cell types and interactions == cell types: * <code>#</code> copies itself in every direction(no diags). if 3 come in a horizontal cluster walls form around them(<code
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06:26:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137574&oldid=137456 * Ractangle * (+14)
06:36:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137575&oldid=137563 * Ractangle * (+99)
06:37:58 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137576&oldid=137512 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Syntax */
06:39:06 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137577&oldid=137523 * Unname4798 * (+112)
06:40:03 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137578&oldid=137577 * Unname4798 * (+12)
06:41:48 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137579&oldid=137576 * Ractangle * (+0)
06:42:03 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137580&oldid=137579 * Ractangle * (+0)
06:44:44 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137581&oldid=137580 * Ractangle * (+21)
06:44:54 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137582 * PrySigneToFry * (+3069) Created page with " is an Esolang designed by PSTF which inspired from [[Bottles of beer on the wall]]. == Exmaples == === 1-time Cat Program === <pre> ..."
06:45:34 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137583&oldid=137581 * Ractangle * (+1)
06:45:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137584&oldid=137582 * PrySigneToFry * (+64)
06:45:55 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137585&oldid=137583 * Ractangle * (-22)
06:46:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137586&oldid=137561 * PrySigneToFry * (+28)
06:46:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Undelta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137587 * Yayimhere * (+126) Created page with "so would <code>`1</code> push one? --~~~~"
06:48:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137588&oldid=134864 * PrySigneToFry * (+473) /* English */ new section
06:48:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137589&oldid=137588 * PrySigneToFry * (+5) TM
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06:52:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137590&oldid=137044 * PrySigneToFry * (+641) /* I might ! need an English page for . */ new section
06:52:58 -!- tromp has joined.
06:54:08 <esolangs> [[Category:Audio Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137591&oldid=106427 * Ractangle * (+23)
06:54:41 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137592&oldid=137273 * PrySigneToFry * (+39)
06:59:37 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137593&oldid=137422 * PrySigneToFry * (+130)
07:00:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137594&oldid=137586 * PrySigneToFry * (+8)
07:03:16 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137595&oldid=137593 * PrySigneToFry * (+82)
07:03:51 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137596&oldid=137595 * PrySigneToFry * (+20)
07:04:06 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137597&oldid=137596 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
07:10:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137598&oldid=137587 * Yayimhere * (+129)
07:11:26 <esolangs> [[I am sure this is the shortest code for 99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137599&oldid=115858 * PrySigneToFry * (-31036)
07:12:38 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137600 * Yayimhere * (+21) Redirected page to [[Undelta]]
07:23:21 <wWwwW> today somebody had already written a truth machine in word worm. damn
07:25:05 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137601 * Cycwin * (+952) Sdac2
07:28:23 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137602 * Cycwin * (+952) Sdac2
07:32:54 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137603&oldid=137601 * Cycwin * (-770)
07:33:55 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137604&oldid=137602 * Cycwin * (+7)
07:55:25 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137605 * Yayimhere * (+813) Created page with "'''0x80070050''' or '''sorry this file exists'''(which is what this error code is for...for the file existing) is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] inspired by [[An Odd Rewriting System]]. it really just annoys you == memory == there are 3 memory things: * <co
07:56:11 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137606&oldid=137605 * Yayimhere * (+23)
08:00:23 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137607&oldid=137606 * Yayimhere * (+91)
08:03:04 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137608&oldid=137607 * Yayimhere * (+100)
08:05:31 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137609&oldid=137608 * Yayimhere * (+77)
08:10:16 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137610&oldid=137574 * Yayimhere * (+17)
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08:24:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137611&oldid=109641 * Yayimhere * (+142) /* contradiction in computational class proof? */
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09:11:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137612&oldid=137611 * Yayimhere * (+92) /* what was the limitation */
09:12:40 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137613&oldid=137609 * Yayimhere * (+77)
09:19:02 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137614&oldid=137613 * Yayimhere * (+51) /* syntax */
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09:20:20 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137615&oldid=137614 * Yayimhere * (+92)
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09:39:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/rt]] to [[User:Linxium]]
09:39:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Linxium]] to [[Linxium]]
09:39:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Linxium]] to [[LX]]
09:41:37 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137622&oldid=137620 * Unname4798 * (+6) categories
09:42:01 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137623&oldid=137622 * Unname4798 * (-28)
09:43:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[LX]] to [[Rt]]
09:43:52 <esolangs> [[Rt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137626&oldid=137624 * Unname4798 * (+14) lowercase
09:58:26 <esolangs> [[Rt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137627&oldid=137626 * Ractangle * (+173)
09:58:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Rt]] to [[LX]] over redirect
09:58:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[LX]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Rt]]"
09:59:29 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137630&oldid=137628 * Ractangle * (-35) /* Hello, world! */
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10:29:56 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137631&oldid=137630 * Ractangle * (+195)
10:54:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137632&oldid=137612 * Ais523 * (+448) /* what was the limitation */ it's hard to explain simply, which is why I made an esolang to demonstrate it
11:22:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137633&oldid=137215 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Esolangs */
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12:43:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137634&oldid=137590 * Tommyaweosme * (+179) /* I might ! need an English page for . */
12:44:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137635&oldid=137548 * Tommyaweosme * (+178)
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13:05:21 <esolangs> [[/English version]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137636 * None1 * (+3029) Translate as the author requested
13:06:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137637&oldid=137634 * None1 * (+50) /* I might ! need an English page for . */
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15:03:14 <b_jonas> do chemists use methanol for household cleaning, like cleaning the outsides of their mobile phones and rubik's cubes, or do they use it only for cleaning in their laboratory?
15:05:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OllyBritton * New user account
15:07:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137640&oldid=137339 * OllyBritton * (+216)
15:25:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137641&oldid=137531 * Tommyaweosme * (+258)
15:25:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137642&oldid=137641 * Tommyaweosme * (-5498) Replaced content with "hello this is a wip archives at [[/Archives|here]]"
15:26:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137643&oldid=137642 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
15:26:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/july 31 to september 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137644 * Tommyaweosme * (+5550) Created page with "{{User:Tommyaweosme/tabs}} You can see block details at [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist&action=raw User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]. meow if youve got any questions, ask em here.
15:26:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137645&oldid=134352 * Tommyaweosme * (-161)
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15:41:31 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137652&oldid=137615 * Yayimhere * (+240)
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15:46:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137657&oldid=137654 * Tommyaweosme * (+190)
15:48:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137658 * Unname4798 * (+62) Created page with "* {background-color:pink !important; color:purple !important;}"
15:48:59 <wWwwW> what do you think of this esolang? and also. what could the possible computational class be?:
15:49:00 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/0x80070050
15:49:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137659&oldid=137658 * Unname4798 * (+0) Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] from "wikitext" to "CSS"
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15:51:27 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137664&oldid=137585 * Ractangle * (+214)
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15:52:21 <ais523> wWwwW: it's TC, it can implement Thue almost directly (the evaluation order is a little different but that doesn't matter); you just need to design the strings so that the replacements can never match in reverse
15:54:25 <ais523> also it isn't IO-complete because it can't output anything that's smaller than the entire internal state, but IO isn't needed for TCness
15:54:59 <wWwwW> since it has no in
15:55:13 <ais523> ah right, isn't output-complete then
15:55:39 <wWwwW> what do you think of the esolang?
15:55:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137666&oldid=137375 * Unname4798 * (+55)
15:57:27 <ais523> it's basically a string-rewriting esolang with awkward syntax – I generally prefer less awkward syntax, but there are merits to doing it both ways round
15:57:49 <ais523> I have been thinking more about the esolang I created yesterday, and realised that it has both an easy-to-write syntax and a very minimal, tarpitty syntax
15:57:53 <ais523> and I think I might just make a page for both of htem
15:58:41 <ais523> no, it's an arithmetic-based esolang
15:58:53 <ais523> based on Blindfolded Arithmetic but I changed one of the rules and it makes TCness much harder to prove
15:58:58 <ais523> I haven't written the page for it yet
15:59:39 <ais523> I think many people think the wiki defines esolangs, but it actually mostly just documents them – esolangs can have an existence outside the wiki, and, e.g., there are plenty of golfing and puzzle languages that aren't written up there yet
16:00:02 <ais523> occasionally I write someone else's language up to get a more comprehensive coverage of esolangs in the wiki, but not very often, and there are plenty of esolangs I don't know about
16:00:24 <wWwwW> most of my esolangs only exists
16:00:31 <wWwwW> cuz the website it does
16:00:37 <ais523> I think I'll write an article now, though
16:03:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Yayimhere * uploaded "[[File:Logo of sorry this file exists.jpg]]"
16:04:07 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137668&oldid=137652 * Yayimhere * (+68)
16:05:36 <wWwwW> without the redifintion rule of sorry this file exists would it be tc?
16:05:50 <wWwwW> cuz idk if i like it lol:)
16:07:50 <ais523> oh wow, that's tricky (assuming you mean that ⟪x∧y⟫ is only legal once per program) – my guess is no but I'm not sure
16:08:16 <wWwwW> i mean that ⟪x∧y⟫ is legal multiple times
16:08:29 <wWwwW> rules are always updated with a and b
16:08:41 <wWwwW> but idk which one i should choose
16:09:14 <wWwwW> i think ill choose your idea tho
16:09:32 <ais523> it's only a small idea, you can credit me if you want to but don't have to
16:09:47 <wWwwW> i like to give credit tho
16:09:52 <ais523> you sort-of created it yourself by mistake, by saying something I interpreted as that
16:10:19 <wWwwW> i wonder if any esolangs has happend kinda like that?
16:10:50 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137669&oldid=137668 * Yayimhere * (-126)
16:11:01 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137670&oldid=137669 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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16:11:50 <wWwwW> no prob with leave
16:15:15 <esolangs> [[Sorry this file exists]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137671 * Yayimhere * (+24) Redirected page to [[0x80070050]]
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16:22:28 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137672&oldid=136083 * Yayimhere * (+46) /* 0815 */
16:26:48 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137673 * Ais523 * (+4428) new language!
16:27:16 <ais523> wWwwW: ^ there's my new language
16:27:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137674&oldid=137594 * Ais523 * (+18) /* I */ + [[Imprecision]]
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16:28:13 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137675&oldid=135719 * Ais523 * (+17) + [[Imprecision]]
16:28:43 <b_jonas> “I think many people think the wiki defines esolangs, but it actually mostly just documents them” => true, I most often document esolangs that already exist on the wiki
16:30:00 <b_jonas> wWwwW: depending on what you mean, maybe: I created https://esolangs.org/wiki/Amycus by mistake
16:30:42 <wWwwW> that was pre''y much what i meant
16:30:59 <b_jonas> in that case I got a more esoteric and less useful language
16:31:23 <b_jonas> but it's still interesting enough that I kept it
16:35:04 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Imprecision#Computational_class => hmm, that's an interesting argument, I'll have to think of whether that actually works with just the operations that you have
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16:40:55 <ais523> my current tentative plan is "implement a 2-counter Minsky machine that only simulates multiplications and divisions by 2 and 3 (to get predictable behaviour of the counters), quantize the state variables sharply enough that the error term drops rapidly enough to converge if they aren't being perturbed much by reading the counters, ensure error from the counters themselves is no greater than 1 over the square of their value so that converge stoo"
16:41:05 <ais523> but I don't know whether or not that actually works
16:41:35 <wWwwW> that was very confusing. maybe im read to fast
16:41:36 <ais523> and you would need to "reset" the error in the counters as they got near 0, but it's possible to create a quantizer that only works near 0 but doesn't disturb the value of large values very much
16:42:09 <wWwwW> also where does the name come from?
16:42:15 <b_jonas> ais523: so you'd store information like your state and stack as integers, kept in the round to nearest integers parts of your variables. then in each round, you'd compute a number C that is easily an upper bound on the magnitudes of all numbers involved. then you'd write something like y = 1/(x*x*C+1), and now if x is zero then y=1, but if x is nonzero then y is close enough to zero that you can use it
16:42:21 <b_jonas> in control flow by multiplying y with some almost integer and adding it to another almost integer. and you make sure that C is so large that even if you do such conditionals a few times per round (you know how long your program is) the round to nearest values are always the correct exact values that you want to simulate.
16:43:06 <ais523> wWwwW: frrom my thoughts about computational class – it's very unusual to have a language that looks inherently capable of storing exact numbers, but chooses to use approximations instead
16:43:10 <b_jonas> and this could simulate a computation on integers that is similar to something you do in Blindfolded arithmetic
16:43:43 <ais523> b_jonas: right, that's the general principle
16:44:15 <b_jonas> there's the slight problem that this only lets you equal-compare integers, not less-than compare them, but fortunately our constructions to compile to blindfolded arithmetic are such that we can get away with just equal comparisons
16:44:37 <ais523> Minsky machines only use equal-compares anyway
16:44:38 <b_jonas> oh, we will also have to be able to compute integer remainders for the blindfolded arithmetic thing
16:44:51 <b_jonas> integer reminders with some fixed divisors at least
16:45:04 <b_jonas> but I think you can avoid that if you do a somewhat more complicated construction
16:45:12 <ais523> I wasn't going to go via BA, just implement Minsky machines directly
16:45:16 <b_jonas> one that reads the top digit instead of the bottom digit
16:45:23 <wWwwW> that jumps when the register is NON zero
16:45:30 <wWwwW> be turing complete
16:45:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, that would be enough for TC but I don't like it if we can avoid it
16:45:42 <wWwwW> still decrementing
16:45:51 <ais523> wWwwW: it's still Turing-complete, you just have to reorganise the program
16:46:06 <ais523> the original version of Minsky machines was "jumps somewhere if zero, jumps somewhere else if nonzero"
16:46:22 <wWwwW> i didnt know that!
16:46:39 <ais523> and if only one of the cases jumps, you can make yourself an unconditional jump afterwards (either using an unconditional jump instruction, or a conditional jump where you already know the input) in order to make the other case jump too
16:46:55 <b_jonas> ok, this needs more taught. Imprecision turned out to be a more interesting language than I assumed yesterday when you mentioned it
16:47:03 <wWwwW> also isnt this program:
16:47:34 <ais523> sort of – it gets complicated when you have multiple gotos or comefroms aiming at the same line
16:47:51 <ais523> or if the argument to goto/comefrom is a variable or expression rather than a constant
16:47:58 <ais523> but in the simple case it's equivalent
16:48:15 <wWwwW> then why is comefrom worse than goto????
16:48:48 <ais523> because to most programmers, not knowing where the code could be jumped to is less confusing than not knowing where the code could be jumped from
16:48:55 <int-e> because it goes against the flow of the program which we usually follow when reading code
16:49:15 <ais523> goto is also confusing if the goto destinations aren't labelled (e.g. if every line is numbered, like in BASIC)
16:49:33 <ais523> although, in practice, most programmers tend to label both ends of the jump and so it doesn't matter
16:49:35 <int-e> backwards sentence a writing like is it
16:49:44 <wWwwW> wouldnt it be funny if j in malbogle was a comefrom
16:50:09 <ais523> so malbolge uses computed jumps, and the program memory is mixed in with the data memory
16:50:44 <ais523> meaning that if the data you were storing randomly happened to be a comefrom instruction you would end up having to comefrom multiple places as soon as the computation produced the correct value
16:50:59 <ais523> *comefrom the current location to multiple places
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16:51:07 <wWwwW> that would be very annoying
16:51:23 <wWwwW> i will add that to my malbolge derevative
16:51:30 <ais523> the sad thing is that I'm not even sure that this isn't TC (if you use one of the Malbolge generalisations to infinite memory)
16:52:19 <b_jonas> afaiu in some APL-likes, including very early versions of J, the main control flow mechanism to jump between entire statements was a goto (represented by a right arrow) that takes a line number, and jumps there if it's a line number or continues to the next line if it's... an empty array? or zero? there were no structured if/while statements yet. so now I'm imagining the same but with computed come
16:52:25 <b_jonas> froms that are conditional in the same way, they don't come from anywhere if the label is empty or invalid or zero
16:52:41 <ais523> b_jonas: doesn't INTERCAL work like that?
16:52:44 <b_jonas> note that in APL this used actual line counts, not labels, so you'd have to edit the numbers if you renumbered lines
16:52:54 <ais523> 0 isn't a valid line number there, and making COME FROM expressions evaluate to 0 when you don't want to jump is convenient
16:53:25 <ais523> also I thought that "actual line count" was an esolang invention the first time I saw it, and was very impressed at the idea (I have subsequently discovered that I was wrong in ths)
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16:53:42 <ais523> this may be a side effect of BASIC being my first programming language – I think I was about 6 at the time
16:53:56 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, INTERCAL works like that, but wWwwW just reminded me that other languages can have come from as well. which I had considered earlier for languages like C, python, ruby (only non-computed in C) but not yet for APL
16:54:02 <ais523> so I assumed that written line numbers and RENUMBER were just normal in languages that used line numbers
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16:54:24 <ais523> b_jonas: your Python control flow nonsense reminds me of C setjmp, it's pretty similar
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16:54:44 <int-e> hmm what happened to aspect-oriented programming :)
16:54:57 <int-e> (that has some "come from" flavor to it)
16:55:21 <b_jonas> ais523: I think they were normal in APL too, but the line numbers were used in the *editor* that you can use on a printer tty without a CRT, so the line number of a line are stable even if you insert or delete lines until you renumber by saving then reloading the currently edited list of lines
16:55:21 <esolangs> [[Huit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137676&oldid=136641 * TheCanon2 * (+105)
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16:56:29 <int-e> I swear I said that before reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming#Criticism
16:56:41 <b_jonas> ais523: setjmp differs in that you have to actually run a statement to get a label value there, you can't jump to somewhere that the control flow hasn't visited yet. you can get around this by writing your function as a big switch statement using a state variable, but that's annoying. here I can just put labels anywhere and you can jump to them as soon as you have the stack frame.
16:56:50 <ais523> int-e: I was just about to link you to that
16:57:11 <ais523> b_jonas: C-INTERCAL uses the "big switch" approach to compile COME FROM
16:57:30 <ais523> at least in some of the complex cases; I can't remember whether it optimizes the simple case into a goto
16:57:45 <b_jonas> ais523: note that https://esolangs.org/wiki/W_(Viktor_T._Toth) combines these: it uses the setjmp-like thing where you save the instruction pointer at runtime for backwards jumps, and structured if statements for forwards jumps. (except it also has function calls and even computed function calls)
16:57:53 <ais523> I guess I see "entering a scope" as comparable to "running a command"
16:57:58 <b_jonas> and W does allow you to goto a computed value
16:58:00 <esolangs> [[Huit interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137677 * TheCanon2 * (+2978) Created the article
16:58:55 <int-e> I did like the Threaded INTERCAL take on coming from the same location multiple times.
16:59:08 <ais523> it is the obvious solution, I think
16:59:20 <ais523> (I didn't invent Threaded INTERCAL, but was the second person to write an interpreter for it)
16:59:26 <ais523> err, compiler, not interpreter
16:59:31 <int-e> Well, yes, but sometimes the obvious thing is also nice. :)
16:59:36 <ais523> although the compilation is somewhat close to the "bundle an interpreter" method of compiling
17:00:50 <int-e> Plus there's the fact that INTERCAL is one of the earliest esolangs. So even obvious things had a good chance of being novel.
17:01:24 <wWwwW> isnt it THE first one?
17:01:25 <ais523> I can't remember when COME FROM was added to INTERCAL
17:01:38 <ais523> both INTERCAL and COME FROM are old, but the idea of combining them is more recent
17:01:44 <wWwwW> it was in the C dialect
17:01:57 <ais523> wWwwW: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
17:02:26 <ais523> it was C-INTERCAL I think, but not sure what date
17:02:37 <wWwwW> ais523 they werent made to be esolangs
17:02:59 <ais523> the article I linked mentions that it's hard to define whether a language is an esolang, if it was invented before there was a concept of what a normal programming language looks like
17:03:37 <ais523> BF was almost invented in 1964, though (P′′ is a slightly minimized version of it)
17:03:41 <int-e> Game of Life is a proper esolang.
17:04:34 <int-e> Huh I didn't realize how close the inceptions of GoL and INTERCAL are. But GoL wins.
17:05:20 <int-e> I'm not sure when they proved it TC though?
17:05:39 <ais523> int-e: it took a while I think
17:05:59 <ais523> yes, INTERCAL is obviously TC to someone who understands the subject, and IIRC one of the authors said as much
17:06:02 <wWwwW> and i cant find it online
17:06:05 <int-e> Conway's Game of Life
17:06:13 <ais523> that it naturally ended up TC and they didn't need to do anything to make it TC
17:06:55 <ais523> I have put some thought into game-of-life golf – finding a set of primitives that let you write powerful programs in relatively small area
17:07:20 <int-e> INTERCAL TC... oh right it has stacks.
17:07:27 <ais523> I had an idea of using beams of spaceships and gliders that made gaps in each other, that can be quite compact and might be workable into something TC
17:07:28 <int-e> (The arrays only provide finite memory)
17:07:40 <ais523> int-e: it's actually TC even without variables at all, but I did that one intentionally
17:07:49 <wWwwW> GoL assembly lang??? perhaps?????
17:07:56 <ais523> that was the first time I almost discovered The Waterfall Model, oddly enough
17:08:32 <ais523> some of the best esolang ideas come up time and time again in lots of different contexts, but if you've never seen the pattern before it can be hard to notice
17:09:25 <wWwwW> does the exist any computational models, that are well...
17:10:25 <ais523> computational models are useful if you're studying computation
17:10:42 <wWwwW> to create programs
17:10:59 <ais523> and any nontrivial/optimising compiler will need some computational model for representing the programs it's compiling
17:11:07 <ais523> although normally it's more complicated than the ones you'll find on the wiki
17:11:29 <ais523> most of them aren't intended for writing in directly, but rather for compiling into
17:11:31 <int-e> wWwwW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_machine is probably more boring than you want
17:11:48 <ais523> I agree that it's both useful and boring
17:13:10 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137678&oldid=137670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:13:12 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unimplemented]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137679&oldid=34020 * Yayimhere * (+36)
17:13:22 <int-e> (it turns out that people don't enjoy implementing random access memory on Turing machines)
17:14:32 <ais523> hmm, should I tell PSDW to stop adding "Category:Languages" without adding the other categories at the same time?
17:14:51 <ais523> it just makes it harder to find uncategorized pages because they don't show up on the list of uncategorized pages any more
17:15:21 <wWwwW> maybe uncategorized could include ones with only lang?
17:15:49 <ais523> that would be a good idea, but unfortunately the definition of "uncategorized" isn't very easy to change
17:16:40 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137680&oldid=137604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Lowercase, categories
17:17:11 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137681&oldid=137678 * Yayimhere * (+155)
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17:19:30 <b_jonas> I was watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSxW2jHS87g recently, in which Marc tells how the US helped the rocket engineer Von Braun move to the US around 1945, but the President didn't trust him for a while, so he wasn't allowed to participate in actual spaceflight research until the 1960s. So that and Böhm's prediscovery of brainfuck reminded me of a joke that I read somewhere and I'll retell in
17:19:40 <esolangs> [[LX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137682&oldid=137631 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) Categories
17:22:17 <b_jonas> The joke plays in the 1950s, when the US tries to make rockets for spaceflight, but the rockets keep failing and the whole things costs a lot of money. The scientists recommend hiring Von Braun, but the President does not approve that. So instead they hire a spirit medium to summon the spirit of Ciolkovski. Ciolkovski takes one look at the rocket designs presented to him, then says "why do you need a
17:22:24 <b_jonas> hundred scientists working on this, when I have already published a good design for the entire space rocket in my 1929 article?" A few years later, they summon the spiriti of Ciolkovski again. "Professor Ciolkovski, we built the rocket following your instructions in the 1929 article, but it exploded at launch." "Ah yes, that is the explosion problem that I solve in my 1931 article."
17:22:51 <b_jonas> I usually think of Gauss like this but for mathematics problems.
17:23:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137683&oldid=137666 * Tommyaweosme * (+159)
17:23:19 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137684&oldid=137664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) Categories
17:25:20 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137685&oldid=137681 * Yayimhere * (-19)
17:25:21 <esolangs> [[Wow owo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137686&oldid=137573 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Categories
17:26:20 <b_jonas> Marc explains in the video that the rocket exploded because of a short between two diodes, since back then they didn't have the material technology for all the cheap plastic insulators that we use today. So after that, everything that the NASA built that went into the rocket was either properly capped with an insulator, or the whole circuit board and components on it were embedded in epoxy so that
17:26:26 <b_jonas> components can't move. I don't know if that's the same explosion problem that Ciolkovski had solved in the joke though.
17:26:56 <esolangs> [[Wow owo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137687&oldid=137686 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* examples */
17:27:21 <b_jonas> don't take "epoxy" in the strict sense above, I don't know what insulating filler material they used\
17:29:54 <esolangs> [[Kcidea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137688&oldid=137535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Stub, categories
17:30:43 <wWwwW> PDW is rlly active rn
17:32:09 <b_jonas> only Ciolkovski is better because he actually wrote the articles, while Gauss just solved the problems and wrote down very little
17:32:40 <ais523> I discovered recently that Gauss invented the Fast Fourier Transform algorithm, but nobody noticed until after it had already been rediscovered by modern mathematicians
17:33:05 <wWwwW> i cant get dis stupid idea of my head
17:33:39 <wWwwW> a consistency checking esolang
17:34:09 <esolangs> [[Blast protection]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137689&oldid=136978 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Categories
17:34:21 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137690&oldid=137673 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Specification */ move a sentence to a more sensible place
17:35:37 <esolangs> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137691&oldid=137440 * Ais523 * (+35) see also
17:35:57 <esolangs> [[NOP (esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137692&oldid=115850 * Ractangle * (+62) /* More elaborate Python interpreter, but unfortunately it is incompatible with other languages */
17:36:01 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137693&oldid=134825 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ +[[Imprecision]]
17:37:59 <wWwwW> everbody gettin active
17:38:10 <wWwwW> but is my esolang idea a good one
17:38:23 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what you mean by consistency checking
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17:38:52 <wWwwW> like you know how some systems are inconsistent?
17:39:06 <wWwwW> could you makea. esolang with some operations and data types n' stuff
17:39:14 <wWwwW> to make it easy to check?
17:39:36 <ais523> it will depend on the exact meaning of "inconsistent" that you're using
17:39:41 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137694&oldid=137685 * Yayimhere * (+55)
17:39:43 <ais523> it is hard to objectively define
17:40:01 <wWwwW> like. isnt it without paradoxes?
17:40:46 <wWwwW> just the way in dis yt vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeQX2HjkcNo
17:40:52 <int-e> sure you can take the concept from formal logic
17:41:06 <int-e> but how do you make a language around this that is interesting?
17:41:32 <ais523> so the problem here is that for a language X to be able to prove a language Y consistent, X must be *more* powerful than Y, not just equally powerful
17:41:36 <wWwwW> i want something where you apply operqators to a language(idk how you would store that)
17:41:48 <ais523> unless X is inconsistent, in which case it can typically prove a lot of false statements so the proofs aren't interesting
17:41:53 <int-e> the "fundamental flaw" framing still upsets me beyond reason
17:42:11 <int-e> And I've never watched the video because of that.
17:42:11 <wWwwW> ais523 ik. thats why maybe it would only be for FSA's
17:42:20 <ais523> so your esolang will need to be more powerful than the languages it's operating on, and it's hard to do that while remaining computable (but this isn't really interesting if the language can't be implemented)
17:42:49 <int-e> (Plus being well too familiar with Gödel's theorems and related ones by Rosser and Tarski and Kleene and I forgot who else already)
17:42:52 <wWwwW> like all turing complete esolangs cant be implemented(but still yea)
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17:43:52 <wWwwW> like not constructing theorems as a esolang
17:43:59 <wWwwW> but like apply dis and dis operaotr
17:44:03 <wWwwW> until you get a bool
17:44:42 <int-e> if you simpify too much you probably end up in the vicinity of SAT and SMT solvers.
17:45:05 <ais523> an esoteric SAT solver would be fun, although arguably the existing SAT solvers are esoteric already
17:45:10 <wWwwW> what is a SAT and SMT solver??????
17:45:22 <ais523> actually, violin already exists, sort of
17:45:37 <int-e> SAT is "(boolean) satisfiability"
17:45:46 <ais523> it's in a repository and might even build if you somehow manage to figure out the right sequence of commands
17:45:50 <wWwwW> how would you do that
17:45:54 <wWwwW> convert a lang to a bool
17:45:57 <wWwwW> and do it correctly
17:46:14 <int-e> SMT is "satisfiability modulo theories"; I /could/ explain more I suppose but Wikipedia probably does a better job without any effort on my part :P
17:46:34 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137695 * Ractangle * (+316) Created page with "'''Nope. with no quine''' is an esolang created by [[User:Ractangle]] based on those "None. without a quine" esolangs. it's basicly [[Nope.]] with no quine. So that basicly means: if you put "None." to the input. The interpriter will print: and if you pu
17:46:36 <wWwwW> also all inconstent things are not TC right?
17:46:50 <ais523> (violin is specialised for INTERCAL reverse assignments, like .1 $ .2 <- #12345, and works out what values to assign to the variables to make them work even if the same variable is used twice)
17:47:04 <int-e> inconsistent theories have no models, so are they "things" at all :P
17:47:17 <wWwwW> does what im saying even make sense?
17:47:34 <ais523> well, arguably an inconsistent theory resolves everything that's implied by a contradiction to bottom, so it's the equivalent of a language where none of those programs halt
17:47:45 <int-e> wWwwW: I think it's an "idea" but it's pretty vague.
17:47:53 <ais523> I am not sure if it's possible to still be TC despite that, if it doesn't have the law of excluded middle or the like
17:48:07 <ais523> so that some things can be meaningfully true or false despite the inconsistency
17:48:45 <ais523> right, but you can define a way to observe the equivalent of a halt
17:48:55 <ais523> e.g. in a CA you can define a halt as being an exact repeat of a previous state
17:49:01 <wWwwW> but cant you do that for something that doesnt halt?????
17:49:03 <int-e> I've never made an esolang because fleshing out ideas is hard. It's easier *within* a framework so I've analyzed a few of the existing ones.
17:49:27 <wWwwW> i will start working on dis
17:49:37 <ais523> wWwwW: yes – the exact definition of halting becomes somewhat subjective when dealing with weak versions of Turing-completeness in which you're allowed to change the halt condition
17:50:14 <wWwwW> either some inconsitent systems are TC or GoL is not TC ig????
17:50:38 <ais523> weak Turing-completeness isn't very easy to define precisely and the definition is still debated
17:50:49 <int-e> GoL is TC but in what sense would it be consistent or inconsistent?
17:50:51 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137696&oldid=137695 * Ractangle * (+133)
17:51:03 <int-e> It's not a logical system in any obvious way.
17:51:17 <wWwwW> wow this went of the rails o_o
17:51:28 <ais523> int-e: conceptually, isn't that because it's untyped?
17:51:39 <ais523> you can send a spaceship at an interface that's expecting a glider and *something* happens
17:51:45 <ais523> just not necessarily what you intended
17:51:57 <wWwwW> wow dis is confusing
17:52:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137697&oldid=137633 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Esolangs */
17:52:04 <wWwwW> wtf even does logic MEAN??????
17:52:08 <ais523> meanwhile, untyped lambda calculus is TC, but is inconsistent if you try to interpret it as a proof system
17:52:24 <wWwwW> It doesnt mean algebra since how tf is GoL algebra????
17:52:24 <int-e> ais523: sure there's an emergent level of abstraction where you have a type system of sorts
17:52:29 <int-e> I'd call it non-obvious
17:53:18 <ais523> oh wow, I just realised something that might be completely wrong, or even meaningless – but in the Curry-Howard correspondence, aren't consistent systems necessarily total, and the ones that can write infinite loops the ones that can prove false?
17:53:31 <wWwwW> i just found out somethin(i think)
17:53:42 <ais523> so in a sense, it's *only* the inconsistent systems that are TC, none of the consistent ones
17:53:44 <wWwwW> i made dis stubid esolang : https://esolangs.org/wiki/Not
17:53:53 <wWwwW> heres the thing i found out:
17:54:09 <wWwwW> either not is more powerfull than a PDA
17:54:20 <wWwwW> or a PDA can make the program on the black page
17:54:22 <int-e> ais523: Sounds mostly correct to me. There's the codata trick though.
17:54:41 <ais523> wWwwW: not is indeed more powerful than a PDA in some respects, but less powerful in other respects
17:54:56 <int-e> codata Result a = Result a | Step (Result a)
17:55:02 <wWwwW> in a *full respect*
17:55:03 <ais523> imagine what happens to the stack after you do 1#1[1+==#N] (this is your example program with an extra =)
17:55:17 <ais523> the resulting state of the stack is something that a PDA can't even express, it is two-dimensional
17:55:36 <int-e> with a type like that you can split your computation into a sequence of steps that each terminate
17:55:39 <ais523> but, the language can't do some things that PDAs can do easily, like read memory in a way that affects control flow
17:56:09 <ais523> int-e: one of my first esolangs was like that, [[e:Wiki Cyclic Tag]]
17:56:17 <ais523> err, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
17:56:27 <int-e> I guess this corresponds to Kleene's normal form (one outer fixed point/minimization/while loop)
17:56:42 <ais523> MediaWIki doesn't support infinite loops, so you have to manually rerun the next loop of the program
17:57:10 <wWwwW> people consider html and css TC
17:57:15 <wWwwW> but it need user input forever
17:57:19 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137698&oldid=137696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Categories
17:57:23 <ais523> wWwwW: languages don't have to be in the main computational classes – it's normally very simple languages that aren't, because they don't have enough power for their operations to substitute for each other, so adding new operations gives new powers
17:58:07 <wWwwW> i wonder what a not comp calss would look like lol :]
17:58:13 <ais523> think about HQ9+, it has effectively no computational power at all – but if it did, then the HQ9+ commands would be redundant
17:58:25 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137699&oldid=136324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) Distinguish confusion
17:58:33 <ais523> but because it isn't, each command is contributing to the language in it s own very limited way, so it is in a computational class of HQ9+-alikes
17:58:38 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137700&oldid=137698 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Distinguish confusion
17:58:56 <ais523> and it is hard to create another language in this class without creating essentially the same language but with different syntax
17:59:08 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137701&oldid=135881 * Yayimhere * (+20)
18:00:13 <wWwwW> aaaaa my brain is breakin
18:00:29 <wWwwW> also i wonder if Not has any paradoxe:)
18:00:58 <esolangs> [[Template:S]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137702 * Ractangle * (+17) Created page with "<del>{{{1}}}<del>"
18:01:45 <esolangs> [[Template:S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137703&oldid=137702 * Ractangle * (+1)
18:02:12 <wWwwW> but its for sure in a *full* perspective not is less powerfull than a PDA
18:02:41 <ais523> computational power isn't a straight line
18:02:52 <ais523> we say language X is more powerful than language Y if X can do everything Y can do, and more
18:03:04 <ais523> but sometimes, there are two languages, and each can do things that the other can't
18:03:21 <wWwwW> what if the only thing x can do thaty y cant is a no-op
18:03:27 <wWwwW> something non important
18:03:32 <wWwwW> also ive found a way to cheat
18:03:36 <ais523> that's still a power difference, and possibly an interesting one
18:03:54 <wWwwW> you can just count the number of 1's in a not string as a symbol in a PDA
18:03:54 <ais523> writing a language that can't do a nop is hard unless you're doing something like enforcing output
18:04:08 <ais523> yes, except a PDA can't have infinitely many symbols
18:04:20 <ais523> that specifically is the thing that gives Not the extra power
18:04:58 <ais523> because PDAs are normally defined in terms of a lookup table: "when there's an X on top of the stack, and a Y on the input, and you're in state Z, do «thing»"
18:05:11 <ais523> but if you had infinitely many symbols you'd need an infinitely big program
18:05:28 <wWwwW> aaaa dis is kinda hard
18:05:32 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137704&oldid=135725 * Ractangle * (+244)
18:05:42 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137705&oldid=137704 * Ractangle * (-8)
18:06:04 <wWwwW> aaaaaa im annoying myself
18:06:15 <wWwwW> i didnt know not could confuse me so much'
18:06:15 <ais523> or, well, here's an example: if Not had input, you could write a program that input a string, then printed it twice
18:06:16 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137706&oldid=137217 * Ractangle * (+28) /* See also */
18:06:18 <ais523> you can't do that with a PDA
18:06:21 <int-e> wWwwW: take a break. get some fresh air. :)
18:06:55 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137707&oldid=137705 * Ractangle * (+30)
18:07:09 <wWwwW> is dis allowed in a pda?:
18:07:09 <wWwwW> for all symbol and state Y do «thing»
18:07:21 <wWwwW> since Not has no conditional
18:07:51 <ais523> it's sort-of allowed, but the «thing» wouldn't be able to follow an infinite pattern
18:07:58 <ais523> otherwise you get more power than a PDA is normally allowed to have
18:08:01 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137708&oldid=137697 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Esolangs */
18:08:15 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137709&oldid=137708 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Esolangs */
18:08:31 <wWwwW> so no infinite loops???
18:08:44 <ais523> you can have an infinite loop, you just need to stay in a known state
18:09:02 <ais523> "when there's a 1 on top of the stack and you're in state 1, stay in state 1 and leave the 1 on top of the stack", that sort of thing
18:09:03 <wWwwW> then Not is representable in a PDA
18:09:08 <wWwwW> unless im wrong in some way
18:09:13 <ais523> no, a PDA cannot do the concatenation
18:09:23 <wWwwW> but if you have infit e symbols
18:09:28 <wWwwW> to represnt the ones
18:09:33 <ais523> then the concatenation would be an infinite pattern
18:10:07 <ais523> computational classes are defined more by what they can't do, than by what they can
18:10:27 <wWwwW> lol i think i find this to funny
18:10:38 <ais523> this is why the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Looping_counter test is useful, if a language can do that it proves that it isn't just a PDA or LBA
18:11:12 <ais523> it might have a unique or unusual computational class, especially if it's simple or defined based on a list of examples, but if that seems unlikely it raises the chance it's TC
18:11:17 <ais523> LBA = "linear-bounded automaton"
18:11:22 <int-e> Little Big Adventure, scnr
18:11:31 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton
18:11:43 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137710&oldid=137707 * Ractangle * (+98)
18:11:44 <int-e> What else... Linear Block Adressing
18:11:51 <ais523> my favourite example is https://esolangs.org/wiki/BuzzFizz which was intentionally designed as one
18:12:00 <wWwwW> so its somewhere between a LBA and a TM
18:12:08 <wWwwW> ais523 i like the name
18:12:14 <ais523> and it can do most of the popular problems, but not looping counters because an LBA can't do that one
18:12:33 <wWwwW> how much the esolang comunity has proove
18:12:46 <wWwwW> like if you want to choose something just get some esolang guys interested in it
18:13:03 <wWwwW> *proove or disproove something
18:13:10 <ais523> it's been a lot of people over a lot of years, and some of us have a lot of practice
18:13:16 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137711&oldid=137690 * Hakerh400 * (+168) Add interpreter
18:13:22 <ais523> int-e: fungot isn't here
18:13:56 <wWwwW> wait wtf û looks like a pencil
18:14:25 <wWwwW> the name is like a metaphor
18:14:29 <ais523> oh good, I was procrastinating on writing an Imprecision interpreter and someone wrote one already
18:14:41 <wWwwW> or however you speel it
18:15:01 <wWwwW> "im *not* going to be normal" or something like dat
18:16:40 <wWwwW> how the hell is not destroying me
18:18:00 <wWwwW> im just going to keep on going
18:18:45 <ais523> bbchallenge has spent a while trying to do something that has been proven impossible to continue indefinitely, to see how far they get
18:19:24 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137712&oldid=136507 * Int-e * (+74) add Unlambda
18:19:51 <ais523> wWwwW: they are working through all Turing machines in the order of simplest to most complicated, trying to work out which ones halt and which ones don't
18:19:51 <int-e> busy beaver challenge I suppose
18:20:19 <ais523> it is known that at some point, we will reach a Turing machine that doesn't halt, but this is impossible to prove
18:20:50 <ais523> (it is also possible that we will reach a Turing machine that does halt, but we can't prove it and can't simulate it for long enough to observe it halting)
18:21:00 <int-e> can we blame this on Chaitin ;-)
18:21:17 <ais523> "we" here is general, I hardly did anything
18:21:27 <int-e> it's a facet of the halting problem being undecidable
18:21:40 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137713&oldid=137712 * Yayimhere * (+26) added not cuz its possible
18:22:12 <int-e> If you could, for each Turing machine, whether it halts or not, then you could decide the halting problem simply by enumerating all possible proofs until one of them does the trick for the TM in question.
18:22:13 <ais523> int-e: oh wow, looping counter without s or k
18:22:31 <int-e> ais523: the ``ci`ci infinite loop is weird
18:22:44 <int-e> it's basically that with output
18:23:05 <ais523> now I am tempted to make a generalization of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough by adding the identity function to it
18:23:37 <int-e> (it's not original code... some example like this was in Madoore's original distribution)
18:23:44 <ais523> my current guess is "still sub-TC" but it's hard to tell
18:24:11 <int-e> (but it should be too simple for copyright issues, plus I reconstructed it on the spot :P)
18:24:15 <wWwwW> if you do that ais523 then plz name it general cough plz
18:24:36 <ais523> I guess the hard-mode version would be c+d+i
18:25:08 <ais523> d is sort-of like an identity function
18:25:14 <wWwwW> you said it took years for you to make eoslangs
18:25:25 <wWwwW> (not to say you lie or anythin')
18:25:33 <wWwwW> (and not to annoy you)
18:28:01 <wWwwW> you made on yester day
18:28:06 <wWwwW> and now your making another
18:28:12 <wWwwW> im confused i tihnk
18:28:17 <ais523> I don't really count that as making an esolang
18:28:21 <ais523> I guess I did, in a way
18:28:21 <int-e> wWwwW: nobody said that *all* languages take that long to make
18:28:29 <int-e> also this one is a variation on an existing one
18:28:43 <ais523> right, removing commands from an esolang is easy, it's probably even easier than adding them
18:29:00 <ais523> having some reason to think that removing commands from an esolang might be *interesting* takes insight, but in this case it wasn't my insight
18:29:21 <int-e> and besides it's not done
18:29:30 <ais523> like, I didn't originally notice that ~ in Underload could be implemented in terms of the other commands, someone else noticed that
18:29:38 <int-e> because I imagine ais523 wouldn't write anything about it unless it's somehow actually interesting
18:29:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137714&oldid=137709 * Ractangle * (+2)
18:29:48 <wWwwW> i have a *controverisal* thing somebody said:
18:29:49 <wWwwW> a good esolang take three things: boredom, ot much freedom, an ADHD
18:29:49 <int-e> and both c and d are... awkward.
18:30:06 <ais523> int-e: right, although I guess not knowing whether it's interesting or not is interesting in its own way?
18:30:21 <ais523> that normally takes a few days of thought to determine that it isn't uninteresting in a non-obvious way, though
18:30:46 <ais523> and oerjan isn't a regular here nowadays – oerjan was good at that sort of thing, probably better than me
18:31:31 <int-e> it is promising in that c and d kind of offset each other; c makes termination harder; d makes termination easier
18:32:01 <b_jonas> %s/Ciolkovski/Ciolkovskij/g
18:32:07 <ais523> fwiw I was considering a call-with-previous-continuation operation in an esolang I was working on recently
18:32:15 <int-e> my brain just wants to shut off though so I won't think about it
18:32:23 <ais523> the difference is that call/cc, if you call the continuation, the argument effectively replaces the entire call/cc call
18:32:56 <ais523> with call/pc, if you call the continuation, it effectively replaces the *argument* to the call/pc call, so it gets given the same continuation again and continues from there
18:33:28 <wWwwW> this day has made me hate not
18:33:30 <ais523> I think this is equivalent in logics that don't have linear-logic-like restrictions on duplicating and discarding values
18:33:38 <wWwwW> i will add that to my user page
18:33:41 <ais523> but it's easier to use for some things
18:34:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137715&oldid=137610 * Yayimhere * (+22)
18:35:55 <int-e> b_jonas: ITYM Циолковский
18:36:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137716&oldid=137345 * Ractangle * (+221) /* test topic */ new section
18:36:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: channel logs webserver seems inaccessible
18:36:37 <int-e> (except for the front page)
18:36:43 <ais523> b_jonas: try an invalid URL, it 404s right away
18:36:57 <ais523> server's accessible but is having trouble serving for some reason
18:37:18 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's the "stalker mode sometimes makes it get stuck" thing, which I hoped would've been fixed when I updated CivetWeb.
18:37:19 <int-e> wWwwW: I've forgotten essentially all the russian I've learned but I can still use the cyrillic script :P
18:37:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137717&oldid=137716 * Ractangle * (+0) /* test topic */
18:37:36 <fizzie> The front page, and 404s, are served by nginx; only the logs are served by the special log-server binary.
18:38:19 <fizzie> Restarted it, and it works again, but will probably break at some point in the future for the same reason.
18:38:33 <fizzie> One of these days I'll debug it. But not today.
18:38:35 <wWwwW> chat must look so confusing
18:38:52 <int-e> fizzie: sure, just narrowed it down because /sometimes/ something usually stable like DNS breaks
18:40:55 <b_jonas> wWwwW: to be clear, COME FROM was originally proposed as a joke replacement instead of GO TO, so it is by design that that they are equivalent. The joke was that there's an influential paper by Dijkstra where he explains why languages like FORTRAN should have a structured IF and WHILE statement, and you should write program using those rather than with conditional GO TO statements. So the COME FROM
18:41:01 <b_jonas> proposal starts from the base idea that GO TO is harmful, but then proposes an even worse solution.
18:43:28 <ais523> b_jonas: they aren't equivalent in interpreted languages, goto is much more efficient to implement
18:43:28 <int-e> wWwwW: IRC can get convoluted. It used to be worse :)
18:44:05 <ais523> e.g. you can't come from in a scripting interpreter that starts executing commands before it's fully parsed the program
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18:47:58 <b_jonas> yeah, Random-access machine is the computational model that is rather similar to the 70s and 80s computers which had a CPU and RAM running on the same clock, with no cache other than sometimes a 1-byte data prefetch, so every RAM access has the same cost. Only the model abstracts away the part that the available RAM and address space is necessarily finite. I think it could have been discovered earlier,
18:48:04 <b_jonas> but back then computers stored data on disks/drums or tape or mercury delay loop rather than core memory or SRAM or DRAM, so the abstraction was deeper, pretending that it always took the same amount of time to access any cell, even though that usually wasn't true for disks.
18:48:27 <zzo38> The variant of call/cc that I had consider is law of excluded middle continuations
18:49:02 <wWwwW> b_jonas: interesting
18:49:26 <b_jonas> Although now that I think of it, https://www.righto.com/2024/08/minuteman-guidance-computer.html describes a computer that stores its work memory on a disk, but its CPU clock cycles are synchronized with the disk's rotation, and it has a separate head for each track, so it does actually access its memory in constant time!
18:50:25 <b_jonas> that's the D-37 family of computers.
18:51:14 <b_jonas> oh hey, the logs web server fixed itself, thank you
18:51:29 <int-e> b_jonas: fizzie poked it
18:52:34 <wWwwW> int-e: i just got reminded of the c'mon do something meme but something happend
18:53:15 <int-e> wWwwW: honestly I'm not sure how many memes there are that both of us know
18:53:28 <int-e> (I'm not sure what you're referring to)
18:54:07 <int-e> links are fine (within reason)
18:54:27 <wWwwW> https://imgflip.com/i/923fer
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18:56:10 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but the library catalogs store russian names in ISO-9 scientific transcription, presumably so that they could type them on a typewriter with fewer type elements, and then this got kept when the catalog got digitized, so if I type Ciolkovskij in the digital catalog https://nektar2.oszk.hu/LVbin/LibriVision/lv_search_form.html then it works (though gives some false positives for other people
18:56:16 <b_jonas> with the same family name), but if I enter Циолковский then it finds nothing
18:56:52 <int-e> b_jonas: that's kind of sad
18:57:03 <b_jonas> I think this is a bug, the library catalog software should be able to find transliterated versions of the name if I type Циолковский, but I have to know the workaround
18:57:56 <wWwwW> ahhh. radioactive theme. make my brain go yes
18:58:06 <b_jonas> and last I was in the building, they still had parts of the catalog not digitized, so I may have to search in the cupboards of catalog slips by the transcribed name sorted in alphabetic order
18:58:54 <b_jonas> I don't know if OSzK and/or Rényi Int kvt still has parts of their catalogs not yet digitized though, maybe they scanned everything by now
18:59:14 <int-e> Using 'j' for 'й' (which in context mostly extends the 'и' vowel) is also a bit weird, but whatever.
18:59:50 <int-e> (it's hard to argue with standards)
19:00:02 <int-e> cf. https://xkcd.com/927/
19:02:08 <wWwwW> sorry for bringing this up again but:
19:02:09 <wWwwW> how the hell is not more powerfull than whats just a TM but with bounded memory
19:03:23 <int-e> you need unbounded memory to keep track of the number of 1s to print between newlines
19:03:27 <b_jonas> int-e: the ISO 9 transcription wants to be a simple reversible transliteration that takes one letter always to one letter, so I think that makes sense. There are other transliterations that don't try to keep that.
19:03:39 <wWwwW> all you need is duplication concatenation and infinite loops
19:03:54 <b_jonas> also ISO 9 tries to transliterate all languages written in cyrillic letters uniformly, but in a way that's optimized for Russian first
19:03:55 <int-e> log(N) -> oo as N -> oo.
19:04:44 <int-e> And since there's no input, an LBA only gets finite memory here.
19:05:21 <wWwwW> even with input it can be a LBA(see buzzfizz)
19:05:33 <int-e> (The memory is bounded by a linear (technically affine to make the zero sized input case work) function in the input size.)
19:05:45 <b_jonas> and I think Serbian second, so that the transliterations for letters usually matches the Gaj serbian transliteration, except for ј where Russian takes precedence, and for the letters where serbian transliterates one cyrillic letter to two latin letters
19:06:02 <ais523> int-e: here, have an infinity symbol: ∞
19:06:22 <int-e> ais523: it looks ugly in my terminal font :P
19:06:31 <zzo38> I did not know about Minuteman computer now I see
19:06:47 <b_jonas> the one digit number for the standard is really cool by the way. do you know any other ISO or ECMA or ANSI etc standards with such a cool name?
19:07:02 <ais523> the book I learned about computer construction from was written a little after magnetic core memory was invented
19:07:18 <ais523> and had sections on both digital and analog computers, although there was more space devoted to digital
19:07:34 <int-e> ais523: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/owo.png
19:07:40 <ais523> b_jonas: aren't Ecma standards normally just two digits long? although they might have reached three digits by now
19:07:58 <b_jonas> ais523: two letters yes, but I don't think I've seen any one-digit one
19:08:05 <ais523> ISO have cool-sounding numbers for some of the standards, like ISO 9000 (the standards themselves are less interesting though)
19:08:12 <b_jonas> and the name with ISO is more impressive with how most ISO standards have longer names
19:09:36 <ais523> this IRC channel tried to set up a standards organisation once, but it didn't get as far as publishing even a single standard
19:09:41 <int-e> wWwwW: BuzzFizz has unbounded counters, so that means unbounded memory.
19:09:42 <ais523> (I think it was planning to do BF first, unsuprisingly)
19:10:10 <wWwwW> then its not a LBA????
19:10:11 <ais523> int-e: but it can be implemented with memory that's bounded linearly by the input
19:10:37 <int-e> okay so it can't do the looping counter
19:10:46 <ais523> wWwwW: the trick is that although the counters can theoretically go arbitrarily high, every very high value is indistinguishable from some lower value, and you can determine that statically
19:10:57 <b_jonas> I admit "typewriters" is too specific a reason, the library catalog even on a digital computer would probably have used a latin transliteration until about 1990 the least
19:11:00 <ais523> so you can "cheat" by storing the higher values as a lower one
19:11:03 <int-e> ais523: right I didn't read that far
19:11:29 <ais523> (well, "statically based on the input" which is how you get the LBA's input-dependence)
19:11:31 <wWwwW> does buzzfizz have strings?
19:11:43 <ais523> except for string literals in the print statements
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19:11:52 <wWwwW> else you could prop implement not
19:12:11 <int-e> it's not an LBA for the purpose of printing stuff
19:12:32 <int-e> you can print a counter
19:12:36 <b_jonas> "this IRC channel tried to set up a standards organisation once" => wait what?
19:12:42 <ais523> int-e: oh, ouch, that is probably a mistake
19:12:56 <ais523> b_jonas: it collapsed into bikeshedding about what typesetting software to use, I think
19:13:09 <ais523> it didn't get as far as considering issues like hosting or getting anyone to pay any attention to it
19:13:20 <int-e> but for properties like halting it's an LBA
19:14:15 <wWwwW> ill have to leave in a bit sorry
19:14:28 <int-e> that said... I still don't think that it can do the loooping counter even if you abuse the ability to print counter values
19:14:48 <b_jonas> typical. hopefully tom7 will improve his BoVeX esoteric typesetting system to a point where we can standardize on that. though we may need to write a texinfo-like template for it that can compile to either HTML or printable PDF.
19:14:52 <int-e> wWwwW: it's fine, people drop off and return all the time
19:15:22 <int-e> sure it may take hours, days, weeks... sometimes more
19:15:25 <ais523> conversations here often move slowly
19:15:31 <ais523> we continue them across hours or days quite often
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19:15:42 <int-e> and there are logs to help...
19:18:00 <esolangs> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137718&oldid=58772 * Int-e * (+96) nitpick
19:18:53 <b_jonas> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09-01.html#l5f APL Del editor, ∇ editor, for log search purposes
19:21:41 <int-e> ais523: ironically that capability to print the counter is quite essential for FizzBuzz
19:21:44 <b_jonas> "sort of – it gets complicated when you have multiple gotos or comefroms aiming at the same line" => that's how Chomsky context-free grammars work if you translate it to a nondeterministic stack automata, but with a very different semantics for multiple COME FROM from the same place as in Intercal
19:21:55 <b_jonas> re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09-01.html#lpf
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19:22:26 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not very different, it's actually pretty similar
19:22:39 <ais523> C-INTERCAL implements backtracking and threading using the same internal primitives
19:24:01 <b_jonas> we should look up the original article proposing come from and link it from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages https://esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL https://esolangs.org/wiki/C-INTERCAL
19:25:19 <esolangs> [[GoL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137719 * B jonas * (+26) Redirected page to [[Game of Life]]
19:26:35 <b_jonas> ok, I admit I haven't really looked at how threaded intercal worked, it didn't seem interesting enough an extension
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19:29:17 <ais523> the way it does inter-thread communication is probably the most interesting part, and ended up being useful for single-threaded programming too
19:34:00 <int-e> I'm trying to recall... was it a one-shot version of REINSTATE?
19:35:00 <b_jonas> "<wWwwW> a consistency checking esolang" => would a modern SAT solver or finite domain logic programming solver count? how about just Prolog?
19:35:05 <int-e> (I'll look it up myself)
19:37:27 <int-e> Ah, statement get an optional ONCE/AGAIN flag and 'ONCE' can toggle the NOT flag. Yeah, I think my memory got close enough :)
19:37:42 <ais523> int-e: it's a statement modifier that flips the abstention status once when the status runs, and then turns itself off, but it turns itself back on again if it gets externally abstained/reinstated
19:39:45 <b_jonas> and this is guaranteed to be atomic in that if two threads run into a statement that is currently reinstanted once only then exactly one will execute that statement?
19:40:35 <b_jonas> that's convenient, yes. though you'll also need some way to pause a thread without a spinloop.
19:41:02 <int-e> I think you have to spin here
19:42:13 <esolangs> [[Sculptlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137720&oldid=136486 * Ractangle * (+1)
19:42:15 <int-e> and nothing stops you from ineffectively REINSTATING a DO ... ONCE statement or ABSTAINING FROM a DON'T ... ONCE one.
19:42:39 <int-e> So there's some effort to make this awkward.
19:44:16 <b_jonas> “<int-e> inconsistent theories have no models, so are they ‘things’ at all” => yes, in that because there are interesting theories where we can't tell if they have models or not, we want to be able to talk about a model even if it might be inconsistent for all we know
19:44:36 <int-e> b_jonas: the link I'm looking at is https://web.archive.org/web/20160303230852/http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/intercal/threaded.html
19:44:40 <b_jonas> it's like being able to talk about a person who may be dead, even if a known dead person isn't interesting
19:45:22 <int-e> b_jonas: I was playing with the idea that the meta level is less tangible than the object level
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19:45:31 <int-e> and things should be tangible
19:45:36 <int-e> it wasn't too serious
19:47:28 <b_jonas> in that case you'd have to say that theories aren't things, regardless if they're consistent, only models are things
19:48:15 <int-e> I have bigger gripes in the same conceptual space... the reversed roles of reification and reflection in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection-2.1.8/docs/Data-Reflection.html :P (values are concrete, so reification should be the process of expressing a type as a value, while reflection does the opposite... but no, it's the opposite)
19:49:18 <b_jonas> "I've never made an esolang because fleshing out ideas is hard." => the trick is to make a toy language or experimental language, and then posting it on the esolang wiki because those are off-topic enough
19:50:11 <b_jonas> by toy language I mean a language whose main goal is to learn how to implement a language; an experimental language is one that has features that are probably not good to put in a real language, but you want to explore their consequences so you put them into a language anyway.
19:50:55 <b_jonas> ok, not really, by toy language I mean a language whose main goal is to learn how to *design and develop* a language, which may involve implementing it, but that's not strictly necessary
19:52:26 <b_jonas> so toy language ends up as not practical mostly by the limitations of its creator, because they don't know how to make a good enough practical language; while experimental language ends up as not practical because you are trying an esoteric idea
19:52:48 <b_jonas> or too many strange ideas in the same language, where a few of those ideas may turn out to be good
19:53:13 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137721&oldid=132744 * Ractangle * (-28) /* See also */
19:53:25 <b_jonas> I don't care too much about whether such languages count as esoteric or not, they're on topic enough for the wiki and channel
19:53:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Uyjhmn--]] to [[I love circuit boards]]
19:54:14 <esolangs> [[I love circuit boards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137724&oldid=137722 * Ractangle * (-1719) Replaced content with "{{Stub}} '''I love circuit boards''' is a circuit board esolang [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2024]][[Category:Unimplemented]]"
19:58:44 <esolangs> [[I love circuit boards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137725&oldid=137724 * Ractangle * (+143)
20:09:00 <esolangs> [[NOP (esolang)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137726&oldid=137692 * Aadenboy * (+2)
20:13:36 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, what is call/pc ? I heard of call/cc and call/ec . is this something related to delimited continuations?
20:14:16 <int-e> 'p' is for 'previous' and there's an explanation of that in context
20:16:27 <b_jonas> "which I hoped would've been fixed when I updated CivetWeb" => I recently upgraded Oracle VirtualBox on my work machine because it sometimes used to crash with a segfault in the process running on the host. after the upgrade, multiple times it froze while the Windows guest was shutting down. this might not be a Virtualbox bug, it's possible that the guest freezes, but if so the timing is strange because
20:16:33 <b_jonas> I don't think that ever happened before, certainly not repeatedly.
20:20:03 <b_jonas> "<int-e> cf. https://xkcd.com/927/" => oh, there absolutely are that many standards for transliterating russian to latin script.
20:23:09 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137727&oldid=134895 * B jonas * (+152) /* Todo */ D-17, thank you for the reminder zzo38
20:24:01 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137728&oldid=132517 * Aadenboy * (+666) yet another rewrite
20:24:19 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137729&oldid=137728 * Aadenboy * (+1) whitespace fail
20:25:21 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137730&oldid=137729 * Aadenboy * (+16) /* who. who are you */ STYLE FAIL
20:28:28 <esolangs> [[Sculptlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137731&oldid=137720 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/137720|137720]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]])
20:28:56 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137732&oldid=137656 * Tommyaweosme * (-62) Blanked the page
20:29:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137733&oldid=137732 * Tommyaweosme * (+62)
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20:36:55 <int-e> ais523: Hmm BuzzFizz should have enough for full LBA capability if we adopt a convention that the first input is 2^M if we want to simulate an M-bit tape. We get full finite control and counters modulo 2^M, and we can decrement a counter by zeroing an auxiliary counter, incrementing it once, and then incrementing both counters until the auxiliary counter is 0.
20:37:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137734&oldid=137733 * Tommyaweosme * (-62) Blanked the page
20:37:51 <int-e> also, else: isn't needed for full finite control; you can maintain your own modulo 2 counter for that instead
20:40:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137735&oldid=136372 * Tommyaweosme * (-157) uwu
20:40:10 <int-e> (incidentally the example that adds two numbers doesn't use else: either)
20:41:40 <int-e> also since if ...: can be nested you can implement finite control with N states with log_2(N) toggles.
20:42:34 <int-e> with a silly opportunity to employ a Gray code.
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21:02:49 <ais523> int-e: ooh, nice proof – so I guess the hard part is doing it only with the numbers in the input
21:03:49 <ais523> (also I was wondering when Tommyaweosme was going to blank that CSS page)
21:04:12 <ais523> that JS edit could be trouble, I think it is likely to screw up edited pages, cloud-to-butt style
21:04:34 <ais523> but I'll wait for it to demonstrate that it's a problem before blanking, just in case it isn't
21:05:27 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn--/Brainfuck interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137736&oldid=130673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+146) Link, category
21:05:37 <ais523> else: was included mostly because FizzBuzzes do that rather than for LBA-completeness
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21:14:03 <b_jonas> I haven't watched this recent video yet, but it has a clickbait title related to stuff on-topic here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFoXooShZXc
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21:54:51 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137737&oldid=137711 * Ais523 * (+7) /* Computational class */ better wording
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22:48:35 <korvo> For the MtG fans who didn't see it yet: https://david.kolo.ski/blog/sort-library-steps-mtg/
22:48:50 <korvo> A judge discusses this in a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhZnHJBH4Ag
22:54:28 <esolangs> [[Stck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137738&oldid=131435 * Thebarra * (+19) /* More Examples */
22:57:31 <esolangs> [[Stck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137739&oldid=137738 * Thebarra * (+108) /* More Examples */
23:03:51 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2023/08/datapoint-to-8086.html “Following the 8080, Intel intended to revolutionize microprocessors with a 32-bit ‘micro-mainframe’, the iAPX 432. This extremely complex processor implemented objects, memory management, interprocess communication, and fine-grained memory protection in hardware. The iAPX 432 was too ambitious and the project fell behind schedule, leaving
23:03:57 <b_jonas> Intel vulnerable against competitors such as Motorola and Zilog. Intel quickly threw together a 16-bit processor as a stopgap until the iAPX 432 was ready;” => that means Intel's microprocessor development lab was capable of executing and reordering independent models way before they made the Pentium and Pentium Pro which were their first CPUs that could execute independent instructions in parallel
23:04:03 <b_jonas> and reorder instruction respectively.
23:19:31 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2024/08/pentium-navajo-fairchild-shiprock.html => hmm, do we have a thematic esolang for this, one where the source code is woven fabric and it's interpreted as if it were plans for an integrated circuit?
23:47:44 <zzo38> I don't know what is BoVeX. What I think would be useful in a typesetting system is to be able to include PostScript codes which can be executed during the decisions of typesetting, and not only at the end when the output is being made.
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23:55:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tommyaweosmalt * New user account
23:55:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137740&oldid=137640 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+184)
23:57:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137741&oldid=137657 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+496) /* unbrick needed */ new section
23:58:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosmalt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137742 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+139) Created page with "[[user:tommyaweosme]]s alt account made for a non-banevading reason. this account has never edited and never will edit [[esolang:sandbox]]"