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00:23:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/BoVeX
00:38:19 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137743&oldid=137680 * Cycwin * (+2084)
00:46:00 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137744&oldid=137743 * Cycwin * (+238)
00:48:49 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137745&oldid=137744 * Cycwin * (+30)
00:50:27 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137746&oldid=137745 * Cycwin * (+31)
01:00:30 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137747&oldid=137746 * Cycwin * (+12)
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01:24:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137748&oldid=121104 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+354)
02:02:14 <zzo38> About setting up a standards organization but standards were not made, I think though, that I had tried to make up one, which is a chording keyboard that uses the same combinations as the IBM format of punched cards, e.g. 0 and 9 together will make "Z". There will be a separate space key and enter key.
02:21:08 <zzo38> The other thing I had wanted to do is like Dewey decimal system with TV shows and movies, so that you can select them by number on a on demand service. After each digit is entered, a menu can be displayed with the choices for the next digit, and then afterward finally you can select which one you want from that menu by entering the rest of the digits according to the specific movie you want.
02:55:18 <esolangs> [[(,)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137749&oldid=119053 * Dadsdy * (-42) /* Discord */
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04:15:06 <zzo38> (I had also written other stuff though, such as Scorpion protocol/file-format.)
04:15:42 <zzo38> Maybe we will be able to make a standard organization if you have ideas about what kind of standards documents you will intend to write.
04:16:24 <zzo38> I think that it was mentioned that my ideas about chording keyboard might be suitable. So, next time you make up something else, and then we will have enough to make it, even if they contradict each other
04:53:59 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137750&oldid=137714 * Ractangle * (-53) /* Esolangs */
04:57:37 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137751&oldid=137700 * Ractangle * (+109)
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06:49:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137752&oldid=137683 * Unname4798 * (+189)
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07:49:40 <esolangs> [[Animosian]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137753&oldid=75706 * Star651 * (+340) kinda sorta got implemented but not exactly
08:10:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: how would that be layed out? the most common modifiers 10, 11, 12 under your left fingers, 10-11, 10-12, 11-12 in a row above your left fingers; the less common 8, 9, 8-9 modifiers under your left pinky; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 keys under your right fingers and the row above them; enter key somewhere reachable with your right hand; space under your thumbs? or would it be more like eight of 1,
08:10:36 <b_jonas> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 in the home row; two copies each of the 10, 11, 12 modifiers above and 10-11, 10-12, 11-12 modifiers below the home row so you can use whichever is reachable with the other hand than the number you're pressing?
08:12:56 <b_jonas> or would you just start with a layout similar to traditional keyboards with separate keys for the 26 letters, 10 digits, and a few other, but then have two copies of the modifier to get lowercase equivalents that negate the 10, 11, 12 columns, and two copies of the 8 and 9 and 8-9 modifiers?
08:13:34 <b_jonas> (and a space and enter key, the space modifiable)
08:16:37 <b_jonas> that would not be too many keys, but I'm not sure it counts as chorded
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08:31:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gabenugget114 * New user account
08:36:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137754&oldid=137740 * Gabenugget114 * (+92)
08:36:56 <esolangs> [[User:Gabenugget114]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137755 * Gabenugget114 * (+2) Created page with "hi"
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10:35:21 <esolangs> [[/English version]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137756&oldid=137636 * None1 * (+2) /* Command in the language */
10:36:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Tommyaweosme/common.js]]": Author request: JS page that is rendering the account unable to edit
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10:37:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137757&oldid=137741 * Ais523 * (+229) /* unbrick needed */ unbricked hopefully
10:37:41 <esolangs> [[/English version]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137758&oldid=137756 * None1 * (+58)
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11:18:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137759&oldid=137717 * PrySigneToFry * (+466)
11:20:27 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137760&oldid=137751 * None1 * (+1)
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11:22:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137761&oldid=137225 * PrySigneToFry * (+745)
11:26:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137762&oldid=137647 * PrySigneToFry * (+195) I'll fliter the message with important level.
11:26:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137763&oldid=137762 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
11:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137764&oldid=137757 * None1 * (+216) /* Delete blank pages */
11:29:55 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137765 * PrySigneToFry * (+19) Redirected page to [[Nope.]]
11:30:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137766&oldid=137764 * None1 * (+279) /* the war */
11:35:45 <esolangs> [[The Esoteric File Archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137767&oldid=82517 * None1 * (+13) /* Known mirrors */ probably dead
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11:39:36 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137768&oldid=136253 * PrySigneToFry * (+218)
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11:53:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137769&oldid=137763 * Ais523 * (-200) undo sorting a user talk page is generally useless, but if a user wants to do it, it should be up to them whether and how to do it, not up to visitors to the page edits by other users to user talk pages should primarily be for the purpose of sending messages to t
11:58:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[I love circuit boards]] to [[How dare you fuck the brain]]
12:01:44 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137772 * PrySigneToFry * (+1024) Created page with "MHPP: I think we're going to go crazy with ORK NON1: Yes, but we can make it crazier PSTF: This is my product {{PSTF's Version|None1|[[Translated ORK/None1 again2]]}} 1. Take the semi-product <pre> Cable texture. Nothing not nothing. Nothing
12:02:47 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137773&oldid=137770 * Ractangle * (+8)
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12:36:10 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137774&oldid=137773 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Syntax */
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12:37:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137775&oldid=137759 * Ractangle * (+29) /* test topic */
12:37:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137776&oldid=137775 * Ractangle * (+167) /* test topic */
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13:11:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137777&oldid=137766 * Tommyaweosme * (+181) /* unbrick needed */
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13:13:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137778&oldid=137752 * Tommyaweosme * (+210)
13:23:27 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unimplemented]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137779&oldid=137679 * None1 * (+252)
13:37:52 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137780&oldid=132328 * None1 * (+120) /* Related languages */
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13:52:57 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137781&oldid=137694 * Yayimhere * (+0)
13:53:18 <esolangs> [[Turing (Joshop)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137782&oldid=108909 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the creator
13:54:03 <esolangs> [[Atomless set computation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137783&oldid=108747 * PkmnQ * (-8) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/108747|108747]] by [[Special:Contributions/Squidmanescape|Squidmanescape]] ([[User talk:Squidmanescape|talk]])
13:54:40 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137784&oldid=108760 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:54:58 <esolangs> [[Gino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137785&oldid=109130 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:55:14 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137786&oldid=108894 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:55:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker++/SBFR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137787&oldid=108895 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:59:21 <esolangs> [[Chagz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137788&oldid=124079 * PkmnQ * (-16) Can probably be safely deleted
13:59:51 <esolangs> [[Miau]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137789&oldid=110915 * PkmnQ * (+2) Redirectify
14:00:39 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137790&oldid=137781 * Yayimhere * (+98)
14:00:59 <esolangs> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137791&oldid=108880 * PkmnQ * (-20) Can probably be safely deleted
14:01:29 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137792&oldid=84021 * PkmnQ * (-22) Probably accidentally created
14:02:06 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137793&oldid=109114 * PkmnQ * (-22) Page was blanked by the author
14:02:30 <esolangs> [[Gino/Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137794&oldid=109129 * PkmnQ * (-22) Page was blanked by the author
14:02:54 <esolangs> [[Gdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137795&oldid=130860 * PkmnQ * (-22) Page was blanked by the author
14:04:53 <esolangs> [[Sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137796&oldid=109374 * PkmnQ * (-15) Replace with template, author may choose to add page in the future
14:06:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sandbox/tr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137797 * PkmnQ * (+106) Created page with "Is this supposed to exist? --~~~~"
14:07:12 <esolangs> [[Marmite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137798&oldid=112492 * PkmnQ * (-27) Can probably be safely deleted
14:09:11 <esolangs> [[Lim95]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137799&oldid=99617 * PkmnQ * (-7) Probably accidentally created
14:10:11 <esolangs> [[Exclamation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137800&oldid=122306 * PkmnQ * (-8) Can probably be safely deleted
14:10:20 <esolangs> [[New]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137801&oldid=122307 * PkmnQ * (-8) Can probably be safely deleted
14:11:29 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137802&oldid=79822 * PkmnQ * (-14) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:05 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE turing completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137803&oldid=131824 * PkmnQ * (-28) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:29 <esolangs> [[C-trice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137804&oldid=108903 * PkmnQ * (-31) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:45 <esolangs> [[FunctionsFTW/FizzBizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137805&oldid=93699 * PkmnQ * (-31) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:57 <esolangs> [[Alexa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137806&oldid=109845 * PkmnQ * (-31) Can probably be safely deleted
14:13:08 <esolangs> [[Robotic Smiley Face]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137807&oldid=109961 * PkmnQ * (+1) Redirected page to [[Robotic smiley face]]
14:13:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137808&oldid=91005 * PkmnQ * (-34) Probably accidentally created
14:14:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137809 * PkmnQ * (+114) Created page with "Is this supposed to be a redirect? --~~~~"
14:15:00 <esolangs> [[Quoi?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137810&oldid=112869 * PkmnQ * (-36) Can probably be safely deleted
14:15:06 <esolangs> [[Quoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137811&oldid=112868 * PkmnQ * (-36) Can probably be safely deleted
14:15:19 <esolangs> [[Business Offers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137812&oldid=108901 * PkmnQ * (-41) Can probably be safely deleted
14:16:44 <esolangs> [[LambdaStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137813&oldid=101633 * PkmnQ * (-50) Can probably be safely deleted
14:19:09 <esolangs> [[Disk Drive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137814&oldid=106434 * PkmnQ * (-62) Redirected page to [[]]
14:20:06 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137815 * Yayimhere * (+413) Created page with "'''BuzzFish''' is a esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] to demonstrate the problem with [[Looping counter]]s. == the syntax == BuzzFish has 3 commands: *: print * and a newline |''x''}: loops x forever |''x''}=: move the string |x}= to after the = == the problem == the
14:20:46 <esolangs> [[Pinecone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137816&oldid=92298 * PkmnQ * (+23) Hopefully someone remembers what this esolang does
14:20:48 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BuzzFish
14:21:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sleep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137817 * PkmnQ * (+97) Created page with "Is this esoteric? --~~~~"
14:22:06 <esolangs> [[Chaos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137818&oldid=109100 * PkmnQ * (-14)
14:22:44 <esolangs> [[OCDMess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137819&oldid=110035 * PkmnQ * (-89) Can probably be safely deleted
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14:27:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137820&oldid=137778 * Unname4798 * (+250)
14:27:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137821&oldid=137337 * None1 * (+315)
14:29:31 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137822&oldid=124504 * None1 * (+1)
14:30:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Chagz]]": apparent test page, has never had useful content
14:31:59 <esolangs> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137823&oldid=137791 * Ais523 * (+25) manual revert back to being a redirect it is possible there are still links to the old name of the language, and a redirect is more useful than a missing page
14:34:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Sandbox/tr]]": apparent (very old) attempt to test a template but it doesn't make sense to keep tests around indefinitely, and normally userspace is a better place for that sort of test
14:34:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Sandbox/tr]]": delete the talk page, too
14:34:50 <ais523> wWwwW: can that even do a looping counter? you at least need * and the newline to be separate commands
14:36:13 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137824&oldid=137815 * Yayimhere * (+40)
14:36:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]]": Author request
14:37:03 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137825&oldid=137824 * Yayimhere * (+69)
14:37:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/common.js]]": Author request
14:37:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/vector.css]]": Author request
14:37:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/vector.js]]": Author request
14:38:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137826&oldid=137820 * Ais523 * (+146) /* Unrated */ deleted
14:40:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[LambdaStack]] to [[User:Squidmanescape]]: revert accidental move of a userpage to mainspace temporarily deleting the replacement userpage to do the history merge, I will undelete it once the history merge is finished
14:40:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Squidmanescape]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[LambdaStack]]"
14:41:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * undeleted "[[User:Squidmanescape]]": history merge
14:41:21 <wWwwW> ais523: now it works right?
14:41:51 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137828&oldid=137827 * Ais523 * (+2202) select the correct revision to be the current revision, after the history merge
14:42:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Business Offers]]": apparent test page, has never had useful content
14:43:42 <esolangs> [[Quoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137829&oldid=137811 * Ais523 * (+19) manual revert back to being a redirect it is possible there are still links to the old name of the language, and a redirect is more useful than a missing page
14:46:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:PkmnQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137830 * Ais523 * (+814) thanks for finding abandoned pages
14:47:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang1]]": accidentally created page, all content is also included at [[User:Esolang1]] which is the correct name for the page
14:48:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Alexa]]": abandoned page, has never had useful content
14:49:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[FunctionsFTW/FizzBizz]]": redirect left behind after a typo was corrected in the page title
14:51:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE turing completeness]]": Author request: early draft of a TCness proof that's now superseded by (and redundant to) the proof on the main article, and the author requested deletion
14:52:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]]": redirect left behind after the page title was corrected to fit the naming convention
14:54:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Lim95]]": apparent test page, has never had useful content
14:54:48 <wWwwW> lots of deletions today
14:55:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Marmite]]": abandoned page, has never had useful content
14:55:52 <ais523> wWwwW: someone went through blanking all the pages they thought should be deleted
14:56:03 <ais523> they weren't right on all of them, but got quite a lot right, so I went around deleting it properly
14:56:34 <wWwwW> shouldn't the creator be able to delete their pages?
14:56:48 <ais523> if it's soon after creation, typically yes
14:56:52 <wWwwW> so you and others dont need to delete it when they blank it
14:56:56 <ais523> if it's older it gets more complicated, because pages aren't owned by people
14:57:25 <wWwwW> if its something like bf you shouldnt be able to do that
14:57:25 <ais523> and if, say, the only description of an esolang is on the wiki but the creator doesn't feel like maintaining it, sometimes they try to delete the page, but then the description would be lost
14:58:02 <ais523> so those are controversial, and normally need more than one opinion to delete
14:58:21 <ais523> I generally leave the page in whatever state it's in, because that's easiest for me to do
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14:59:15 <ais523> as for BuzzFish, you might as well, e.g., just add a looping counter to HQ9+, it still would be less powerful than a linear-bounded automaton in almost all respects, but it would be able to implement one program the linear-bounded automaton couldn't
14:59:39 <ais523> so it's not *strictly* less powerful
15:00:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137831&oldid=137715 * Yayimhere * (+15)
15:00:20 <ais523> there's an HQ9+ variant https://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9%2B with a command defined as "makes the language Turing-complete" – that's the definition, it doesn't say how
15:00:26 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137832&oldid=137825 * Yayimhere * (+16)
15:01:00 <ais523> I think there's some debate about what that does to the computational class
15:01:09 <wWwwW> so it could be a run the stack as the memory(idk if dis exists) of a universal tag system
15:01:47 <ais523> OK, 18 deletions is a lot (although it's actually only 16 because 2 of them were a history merge, which requires temporarily deleting pages but they get restored afterward)
15:05:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[DimensionDoors]]": accidentally created page, duplicate of [[User:DimensionDoors]] which is the correct name for it
15:05:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:DimensionDoors]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: accidentally created page, duplicate of [[User:DimensionDoors]] which is the correct name for it
15:06:32 <esolangs> [[Gdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137833&oldid=137795 * Ais523 * (+20) manual revert back to being a redirect it is possible there are still links to the old name of the language, and a redirect is more useful than a missing page
15:07:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Sequence]]": No content; content was: "{{Stub}}", has never had content other than the stub template or an equivalent
15:08:50 <ais523> it doesn't make any sense to make a page that's marked as a stub but nothing else, but apparently people do it sometimes
15:10:36 <ais523> at Wikipedia there are short letter+number codes for all the common ways people make pages that are either entirely useless or rulebreaking and can be deleted immediately, containing no useful content at all is A3
15:11:17 <wWwwW> thats pre''y smart
15:11:21 <ais523> I think it's mostly to stop people deleting pages unilaterally when there's supposed to be discussion first, if you don't know an appropriate code you can't delete the page (some admins get a bit trigger-happy with the deletes)
15:11:35 <wWwwW> also gentoo boot menu is TC... for some reason
15:13:39 <ais523> I once wrote a config file format by starting with it being TC and then placing restrictions on it until it wasn't, which is the other way round from how most people design config file formats
15:13:54 <ais523> maybe Gentoo's boot menu did it the other way round from me
15:14:08 <wWwwW> why do you want it to not be TC?
15:14:24 <ais523> because then it isn't really a config file, it's just a program
15:15:01 <ais523> and in particular I was working on a project where people doing similar projects were trying to put too much logic into the config files rather than putting it into the program being configured, where it should be
15:15:06 <ais523> so I wanted it to be sub-TC intentionally
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15:18:27 <wWwwW> i would like to see a ocnfig creating esolang
15:19:24 <ais523> not intentionally designed as one, I think
15:19:48 <ais523> there are almost certainly config file formats that turned into accidental esolangs
15:20:22 <wWwwW> then maybe some random config format is the first esolang?
15:21:36 <ais523> maybe, although early config file formats were very simple
15:27:05 <wWwwW> how the hell did conway get into esolangs??(fractan))
15:29:26 <ais523> so Conway seems to have been interested in showing that certain mathematical problems are hard to solve
15:29:51 <ais523> and there are very few ways we know of to prove that solving a problem is hard or impossible
15:30:14 <ais523> most problems that we know to be unsolvable, we know it because we can reduce them to the halting problem
15:30:30 <wWwwW> xD why is that so funny to me
15:30:37 <ais523> Conway was trying to show that the Collatz problem was difficult, and did so by showing that generalized Collatz problems were Turing-complete
15:30:49 <ais523> and Fractran was an esolang invented for the TCness proof
15:31:05 <wWwwW> yea that reminded me of something
15:31:27 <wWwwW> in the esolang comunity(and other mathemtical comunities)
15:31:43 <wWwwW> it is that after a person has made a lot of esolangs
15:32:02 <wWwwW> they begin using it in their proofs
15:32:10 <wWwwW> kinda like some of your esolangs
15:32:15 <wWwwW> idk why it happens
15:33:07 <ais523> many of my esolangs were created for proofs, and often they turn out to be useful in more than one proof
15:33:39 <ais523> also, "easy to implement esolangs that are TC and are useful for proving things" is one of the main sorts of esolang that I actively look for, it's where a lot of my esolanging effort goes
15:33:44 <ais523> so it isn't surprising that I found quite a few of them
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15:34:59 <ais523> I can sometimes put a huge amount of effort into taking an easy-to-implement TC language (like Cyclic Tag) and trying to make a derivative that's marginally easier to implement, and still TC, but the effort is that often it's a lot harder to prove TCness (like with Acyclic Tag, Grill Tag or Echo Tag, which are cyclic tag with added restrictions that make it easier to implement in some languages)
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15:38:13 <ais523> The Waterfall Model and Spiral Rise seem to be my best discoveries in terms of being TC yet easy to implement in esolangs and other low-powered languages
15:38:16 <wWwwW> hey ais523: do you think it would be possible to construct a computational model(or comp class) that matches not's power
15:38:50 <wib_jonas> wWwwW "i would like to see a ocnfig creating esolang" => I think there was one of those. IIRC it wasn't just turing-complete but had full access to C-level userspace, and used a syntax where commands were made of an opcode byte plus usually two register names, and I think the registers were named of the 52 ascii letters and maybe more but
15:38:51 <wib_jonas> partitioned to like 6 groups with fixed type traditional fortran style
15:39:00 <wib_jonas> but I'm probably misremembering most of this
15:39:26 <wib_jonas> oh hey, here it is => https://esolangs.org/wiki/Scrip7
15:39:44 <ais523> one thing I noticed is that Not is almost a subset of Underload: it has (1) * : S (¶)S (in Underload syntax), plus an infinite loop which is expressible in Underload but isn't a simple command
15:39:48 <wib_jonas> I just had to search https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=configuration+floating&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go
15:41:05 <wib_jonas> "the first version of the idea had seven registers in all 8 forms, and the author forgot that the alphabet has 26 letters, not 28"
15:41:57 <ais523> hmm, I think Not's computational class can be described like this: you have a counter that grows by a fixed amount at every iteration, and can output fixed strings of 1 and can also output the counter, but can't do anything else
15:42:23 <wWwwW> thats not tc for sure
15:42:24 <ais523> wib_jonas: that makes me think that the esolang should just have added two more letters, œ and æ perhaps
15:42:55 <ais523> those are less symmetrical but easier to type
15:43:24 <wWwwW> i mistype stuff with these so often loæ
15:44:27 <wib_jonas> ais523: in the current form one of the code pointer (as in Script7 code, not C code) typed variables, named G, is the instruction pointer, the so the nice symmetry of 7 general purpose registers in each type would be broken again
15:45:06 <wWwwW> œ and æ are the same???? right???
15:45:12 <wib_jonas> also Script7 basically just *removed* the letters g h G H
15:45:16 <ais523> no, one is a mix of an o and an e, the other is a mix of an a and an e
15:45:34 <wWwwW> they look so simileair
15:45:47 <ais523> æ used to be used in some older English words, but nowadays is normally typed as "ae" or just "e"; œ is used in French
15:46:13 <wWwwW> and maybe swedish(idk)
15:47:03 <wWwwW> cuz denmark has it
15:47:16 <wWwwW> and we just f'ing do that to people ig
15:48:20 <wWwwW> juts like denmark used to have norway
15:57:18 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137834&oldid=137790 * Yayimhere * (+82)
15:57:39 <wWwwW> ^^ progress has been made on the comp class
15:59:58 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137835&oldid=137834 * Yayimhere * (+68)
16:04:11 <wWwwW> what would you expect dis esolangs comp class to be?
16:05:44 <ais523> I am not sure – my guess is that it's TC but it isn't obvious and I don't have a proof
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16:09:00 <esolangs> [[Instructistuctisurcticitstucrit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137836 * Tommyaweosme * (+774) Created page with "{{lowercase}}instructistuctisurcticitstucrit is a language where you have to code in one program to code in another etc. to finally get to [[brainfuck]]. == how it works == code a [[befunge program]] read the stack: ...987654321 where 1 is
16:09:15 <esolangs> [[Instructistuctisurcticitstucrit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137837&oldid=137836 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
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16:34:16 <wWwwW> hey also ais523 can you understand rectangle now?
16:35:58 <ais523> I understand it a bit better
16:36:22 <ais523> I haven't really thought about how to program in it, though
16:37:05 <wWwwW> i have a question about Is It Art?. would it be possible to construct a program that always accepts input
16:37:51 <ais523> I think so, one simple way is to have all the pieces rectangular and all having letters that represent input on them
16:38:08 <ais523> it isn't I/O complete because if input X maps to output Y, then input XX maps to output YY
16:38:26 <ais523> although, you could just dedicated some symbol to "end of input" to work around that
16:39:10 <wWwwW> could we maybe tro to create that program??
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16:53:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/befunge scripts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137838 * Tommyaweosme * (+346) Created page with "unincluding the [[user:tommyaweosmalt|one i made on my alt]]: == hello world! == v v"hello world!"< @,,,,,,< >,,,,,^ == program that ends itself with no @ in sight == 88*60p == fizzbuzz (looks like cherries) == &
16:57:25 <wWwwW> i just got a f'ing stupid idea
17:01:10 <wWwwW> can i get feedback?
17:02:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: My intention was to use a small keyboard not much bigger than a telephone keypad, although I am not sure which orientation will be best. (I also did not think lowercase will be needed for the use of this kind of keyboard, and that it is not intended for when you have a full keyboard available but for when you use a small keyboad without too many keys.)
17:03:56 <wWwwW> that whats the program does is it modifies itself
17:04:02 <wWwwW> and not like emmental
17:04:19 <wWwwW> like it modifies the WAY its compiler works
17:04:58 <ais523> there are a lot of self-modifying languages on the wiki already, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying – you could look at some of those for inspiration or to see if your idea's already been done
17:05:11 <wWwwW> it just fro goes into the compiler and just modifies the code
17:05:21 <wWwwW> not thta kind of self modifying
17:05:28 <ais523> wow, 319, I don't have all of those memorised (yet, or probably ever)
17:05:46 <ais523> I think that there are probably some that replace the interpreter already
17:05:57 <ais523> editing it rather than replacing it is a bit rarer, though
17:06:08 <wWwwW> but i dont mean something like: make dis command do dis code
17:06:26 <wWwwW> i mean that it actually modifies the code that inteprets the program
17:07:03 <ais523> so the problem with that is, if you are just editing the interpreter rather than just outright replacing it, you would need to specify what language the interpreter is written in, to be able to edit it
17:07:26 <wWwwW> maybe you could do *two layer* interpretation
17:07:46 <ais523> also, there is the potential problem that the program might edit the interpreter to just do everything on its own without even looking at the program
17:08:03 <ais523> so you'd effectively be programming in the outer language rather than in the esolang
17:08:17 <wWwwW> it coul prop be made better
17:09:22 <wWwwW> what if like the memory was the intepreter
17:10:09 <ais523> maybe what you want is an esoteric programming style in an existing language
17:10:33 <wWwwW> that sentence made no sense to me
17:10:47 <ais523> like, imagine a Python library that just alters bytes in memory directly, and only the bytes that correspond to the Python interpreter's memory image
17:11:05 <ais523> and all the language can do is "set byte X to value Y"
17:11:21 <wWwwW> where dis idea comes from is from 90
17:11:24 <ais523> but I think it might be uninteresting because people would just write a small machine code program that did all the work itself
17:11:40 <ais523> 90 works around the problem by not letting you add code, you can only delete it
17:11:53 <wWwwW> that would be cool
17:12:02 <wWwwW> the esolang is its own CPU
17:12:12 <wWwwW> then the bytes wont have the prblem of the computer
17:12:23 <ais523> then what is running the program?
17:12:24 <wWwwW> so it woudlnt have the problem 90
17:12:44 <wWwwW> ais523: and itepret which in intepreting the cpu which is interpeting the esolang
17:13:24 <ais523> so does the esolang change the CPU?
17:13:50 <wWwwW> it modifies the cpus compiler for it
17:13:56 <wWwwW> wow dis is confusing
17:14:26 <ais523> hmm, I have used the tools that are used to compile CPUs (rather than compiling software) – placing all the transistors and the like is very hard by hand, so computers are used to do it
17:14:28 <esolangs> [[Instructistuctisurcticitstucrit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137839&oldid=137837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Categories
17:14:39 <ais523> but they're generally closed-source and awkward to use, with bad interfaces
17:15:01 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137840&oldid=137832 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:15:14 <wWwwW> idc about how computationally possible it is
17:15:22 <wWwwW> like if its hard to compile or whatever
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17:18:36 <esolangs> [[Pinecone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137841&oldid=137816 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+100) Wayback, GitHub, categories
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17:20:18 <esolangs> [[LCTDNH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137842&oldid=111110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:21:23 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137843&oldid=137774 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Categories
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17:29:53 <esolangs> [[BuzzFizz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137844&oldid=137718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Category
17:31:40 <int-e> ais523: I guess the obvious LBA task that BuzzFizz cannot accomplish without tweaking the input is reading a sequence of numbers in {1,2} and output them in reverse.
17:33:11 <zzo38> The standard organization can be made from some common conventions (e.g. RFC 2119) as well as uncommon conventions. Furthermore, they should be made 100% public domain They should be made in a way that can use a simple protocol and simple file (e.g. plain ASCII files) since otherwise it is difficult to access the file that you cannot know without reading the specification first.
17:33:41 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137845&oldid=137840 * Yayimhere * (+17)
17:34:29 <zzo38> There are several of "small web protocols" (I made a document which a list of them and some brief descriptions). If you need virtual hosting, then Nightfall Express won't do, and Gopher without TLS also won't do. Gopher with TLS has a problem due to how the gopher menu is made, but you could use a DNS record to specify that TLS is required if you do not have version 6 internet.
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17:36:11 <ais523> int-e: it possibly can if it takes them as digits of a single number? although that program seems like a pain to write
17:36:11 <wWwwW> is it a good idea tho?
17:36:36 <ais523> I think it would take too much effort to do well, and wouldn't really want to see it done badly
17:38:08 <zzo38> I don't know if they had considered using DNS records to avoid that problem of using gopher with TLS.
17:40:23 <int-e> ais523: Yeah that'll work... encode your input using only non-zero digits in a suitable base; do the same for the output (you can set aside a dedicated counter for accumulating the output). Also, yes, painful.
17:40:40 <wWwwW> ais523: for making the cpu i could just uselike idk assembly
17:42:18 <zzo38> (The DNS record can also specify that TLS is available but is not required even with version 4 internet, in case you do not need virtual hosting.)
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18:14:45 <zzo38> (I have seen gopher servers that require version 6 internet (I think it is the gopher server for INTERCAL), and I don't know if this might be why.)
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18:34:44 <int-e> The server may not have an IPv4 address. They often cost extra these days.
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18:38:21 <zzo38> They did have a HTTP server with a version 4 address though.
18:46:56 <int-e> It could be the lack of name-based virtual hosting (HTTP has a Host: header after version 1.1 I think?; Gopher doesn't have anything like that). Or there could be a
18:47:07 <int-e> Err... Or there could be no technical reason at all.
18:52:17 <zzo38> Yes, maybe there is no reason and they just did it, although lack of virtual hosting is also what I had mentioned; however, virtual hosting will be possible with TLS.
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19:00:31 <zzo38> But with version 6 internet, I would expect that they will have enough addresses that name-based virtual hosting will not be needed, I think.
19:02:22 <zzo38> So, protocols with virtual hosting can also be set up with servers with version 4 internet that can be forwarded to the appropriate version 6 addresses. In some cases TLS will be required for doing this but sometimes it can be done without TLS (although gopher isn't one of them).
19:02:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think two things you'll want to decide about the keyboard is (1) the typical largest set of fingers that users are expected to type on it, eg. on a qwerty keyboard you can use all fingers on both hands; on typical small mobile phone keypads you use just one finger; on some small keypads you'd use two thumbs; some calculators you can use with either one thumb when handheld, or one finger each
19:02:43 <b_jonas> from one hand if you put the calculator down onto a desk;
19:06:01 <b_jonas> (2) and how it processes the keydown and keyup events: for a normal keyboard you usually only care about keydown of non-modifier keys, and the up or down status of modifiers at the moment when the non-modifier is pressed, you ignore keyups of non-modifier keys and ignore the up/down status of modifiers at all other times; a mobile phone keypad usually only cares about keydowns and only when no other key
19:06:07 <b_jonas> is pressed, you then have to release all keys simultaneously before you can press a new key, this is a good way to ignore the effects of most accidental fat fingerings; while I think a stegano keyboard allows you to press the keys in a chord in any order, and goes to the next syllable when you release all the normal keys
19:06:28 <b_jonas> of course (2) can be decided in software in any case.
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19:16:28 <zzo38> OK, that is valid to consider. For (2), I did think to do that all keys must be released before it is worked and another keys can be entered, but I did not consider (1).
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20:10:05 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137846&oldid=137701 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2384) Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp.
20:10:15 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137847&oldid=137843 * Ractangle * (+104)
20:11:08 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137848&oldid=137847 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
20:11:31 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137849&oldid=137846 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Inserted a missing newline instruction (N) in the original example.
20:11:56 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137850&oldid=137848 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Syntax */
20:18:13 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137851&oldid=137850 * Ractangle * (+146) /* Syntax */
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20:22:02 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137852&oldid=137851 * Ractangle * (+60) /* Syntax */
20:22:15 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137853&oldid=137852 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Syntax */
20:22:58 <esolangs> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137854&oldid=136696 * Graue * (-4) /* Example code */
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20:40:18 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137855 * Tommyaweosme * (+11) Created page with "{{yearcat}}"
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