00:00:02 <ais523> I think modern processors are slow if you use leave a value in the top half of the YMM registers and then use SSE instructions, older ones had a special case for that
00:00:20 <ais523> but, modern compilers know that doing that is slow, and take care to not leave a value in the top half
00:01:18 <ais523> I remember being disappointed that AVX and AVX2 don't have any multiplications bigger than a 32-to-64-bit widening multiply
00:01:38 <b_jonas> to be honest a lot of the newly added instructions feel weird to me, like they're there either for marketing to boost the number of mnemonics, or to help beginner programmers who don't understand enough programming to use the smaller but versatile SSE/SSE2/SSE3/SSE4_2 instruction set. not all instructions are like that, some are genuinely useful new features, just a lot of them.
00:01:43 <ais523> if I need to do 64-bit multiplies, it is not even worth vectorising, as I'd have to use the entire vector unit just to do the individual parts of the multiply
00:02:16 <ais523> b_jonas: I think they're there for marketing but for a different reason: companies paying Intel to add really specific commands that would help some particular project they're working on
00:02:23 <ais523> and Intel not caring that they're useless for everyone else
00:02:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, unless you can use double float multiplications
00:03:24 <ais523> float multiply on integers only gives you 53 or 54 bits, right? so that's worse than 32-to-64 widening multiply unless your arguments are very unbalanced
00:03:42 <ais523> (assuming a double-precision float)
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00:05:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but only if you want the whole integer result. sometimes you'll want only the high bits.
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00:06:39 <b_jonas> though maybe that doesn't happen that often when 32 bits aren't enough and you aren't already working with double floats
00:10:24 <b_jonas> but I think the double float multiply can be useful for geometric distorting high bit depth (between 10 and 16 bits inclusive, such as raw from camera sensor) pixmap images without losing much precision
00:14:07 <b_jonas> (well not raw camera sensor really, but after debayering)\
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00:19:58 <b_jonas> I use a keyboard with a 101/104 key style enter key at home, and a keyboard with a 102/105 key style enter key at work. You have to press enter at somewhat different places between the two. This results in me often pressing enter wrong, and *in both directions* that often results in pressing the backslash key by accident togethr with enter. This is probably the closest I have to a true "walked uphill
00:24:23 <ais523> hmm, the UK keyboard layout has a confusing Enter key placement, but backslash is on the entire opposite end of the keyboard
00:24:51 <ais523> Return and # together occupy the space that would be occupied entirely by Return on a US keyboard
00:25:32 <ais523> although, if you press # on a keyboard that's physically a UK keyboard, but set to a US keyboard layout, you get \ (which is a little weird – I would have expected it to act as Return)
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01:45:34 <Sgeo> Smalltalk-72 is... interesting. It's not very Smalltalky, it's more like.... Smalltalk + fexprs or forth or... whatever allows functions to parse whatever comes next
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02:12:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138750&oldid=138748 * Tommyaweosme * (+168) /* Move warring */
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02:34:14 <korvo> ais523, b_jonas: I agree with all your points. I was hoping to show wwwww that, when it comes to programming machines, you can't really set the machine to an undefined state, only a state you don't know much about.
02:34:46 <korvo> Like, the entire reason why programming is so difficult is because no matter what you do, all you can really give the computer is a pile of details, each one perfectly observed.
02:35:12 <korvo> Or to paraphrase the classic film Anchorman, the computer will read *exactly* what you tell it to read.
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03:24:42 <esolangs> [[Triforce]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138751&oldid=35497 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Categories
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04:31:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:1L AOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138752&oldid=23348 * Gggfr * (+188) /* No null output? */
04:34:44 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138753&oldid=134577 * Gggfr * (+39)
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04:39:41 <ipadwwwww> is dis a gud esolang? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xⁿxₙ
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05:15:10 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138754 * Gggfr * (+720) Created page with "'''Solve for x''' is a esolang that yet you cant program in. this is becuase Solve for x is a esolang that you must solve for. == properties == (from now on i will be saying x) these are the properties of x * there is only one [[Quine]] for x but infinite [[Narcissist
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05:17:21 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138755&oldid=138754 * Yayimhere * (+36)
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06:36:20 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138756&oldid=138624 * Ractangle * (+18)
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07:56:17 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138757&oldid=138440 * Ractangle * (+0)
07:56:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] to [[Input hello world or else:/the file in question]]
07:56:54 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138760&oldid=138486 * Ractangle * (+0)
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09:31:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138761&oldid=138747 * Unname4798 * (+250)
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10:38:39 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138762&oldid=138738 * Ractangle * (+59) /* Hello, world! */
10:39:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138763&oldid=138732 * Ractangle * (+59) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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11:58:22 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138764&oldid=137211 * Ractangle * (-50) /* Waretel BASIC */
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12:17:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138765&oldid=125035 * Heathcorp * (+17) Add Mastermind link to languages that compile to brainfuck
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12:56:04 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138766&oldid=138762 * Ractangle * (+73) /* Move data from a cell to an another cell */
12:57:33 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138767&oldid=138407 * Ractangle * (+90) /* Headache (lang that compiles to brainfuck) */
12:58:19 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138768&oldid=138767 * Ractangle * (-2) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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13:32:29 <wWwwW> can YOU solve for x? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Solve_for_x
13:33:13 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138769&oldid=138755 * Yayimhere * (+47)
13:37:07 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138770&oldid=138769 * Yayimhere * (+14)
13:40:55 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138771&oldid=138770 * Yayimhere * (+49)
13:43:11 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138772&oldid=138771 * Yayimhere * (-866) Blanked the page
13:44:19 <esolangs> [[Ironlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138773&oldid=135125 * Froginstarch * (+84) /* Instructions */
13:45:33 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138774 * Yayimhere * (+911) Created page with "'''Final Word Of The Day''' is a esolang that yet you cant program in. this is becuase Solve for x is a esolang that you must solve for. it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == properties == (from now on i will be saying x to represent Final Word Of The D
13:45:48 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138775&oldid=138774 * Yayimhere * (+10)
13:47:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138776&oldid=138756 * Yayimhere * (+10)
13:52:15 <wWwwW> can YOU solve for x? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
13:55:12 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138777&oldid=138775 * Yayimhere * (+34)
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14:27:22 <wWwwW> i wonder if anybody can tho...
14:29:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138778&oldid=136413 * Yayimhere * (+151)
14:30:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138779&oldid=138778 * Yayimhere * (+2)
14:30:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138780&oldid=138779 * Yayimhere * (+19)
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14:41:31 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138781&oldid=128753 * Ractangle * (-84) /* :] */
14:41:39 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138782&oldid=138781 * Ractangle * (+85)
14:43:44 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138783&oldid=138766 * Ractangle * (-14) /* Interpreter */
14:44:59 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138784&oldid=138782 * Ractangle * (+70) /* Brainfuck+2 */
14:45:23 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138785&oldid=138784 * Ractangle * (-69) Wrong place
14:45:34 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138786&oldid=138785 * Ractangle * (+69) There
14:57:22 <esolangs> [[Seclusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138787&oldid=118684 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
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15:13:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:SubI machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138788 * Yayimhere * (+160) Created page with "delete TC tag while its not prooven bro. i will do it if you dont [-~~~~-]"
15:21:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Graypinkfurball * New user account
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15:40:51 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138789&oldid=138404 * Ractangle * (+43) /* G# */
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15:45:25 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138790&oldid=137592 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Hexdump */
15:47:30 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138791&oldid=138789 * Yayimhere * (-125) /* G# */ its no a unary looping counter
15:50:13 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138792&oldid=138791 * Yayimhere * (-44) /* How dare you fuck the brain */ also not a looping counter since its not unary
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15:59:26 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138793&oldid=134005 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
15:59:46 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138794&oldid=138792 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* REG.TYPE = STR TRUE */
16:07:18 <wWwwW> its kinda boring on the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day page
16:07:27 <wWwwW> its jyst the properties
16:07:38 <wWwwW> so can i get help finding a eso,.ang that works
16:15:28 <korvo> wWwwW: What will you do with it?
16:15:54 <wWwwW> to make it interesting
16:17:13 <korvo> wWwwW: Sure, code, but code *what*? What do you want to express? What do you want to communicate? What do you want your art to mean?
16:19:39 <wWwwW> i want my art to mean:
16:19:40 <wWwwW> i think many things are interesting
16:19:40 <wWwwW> concepts are to be tested an used in the wrong places
16:19:41 <wWwwW> what i want to code(bascially my goals):
16:19:42 <wWwwW> TC proof(since it has to be)
16:21:37 <korvo> Am I right in guessing that you're a young student still learning about the world? Or are you an adult returning to this world after experiencing real life?
16:22:05 <wWwwW> ..lets say i have a hard time in school
16:22:07 <korvo> I would encourage students to examine many *different* ways of existing. For computers, this means many different languages.
16:22:12 <korvo> Oh, no worries. I'm a dropout.
16:22:33 <korvo> Nonetheless studying is required. Try to draw a distinction between work done for grades and work done for exploration.
16:22:34 <wWwwW> i like to browse the wiki
16:22:52 <wWwwW> to see different stuff
16:23:03 <korvo> One technique I really liked at university was forcing students to explore different "paradigms" of programming, from different families of language design.
16:23:18 <wWwwW> ive *tried* to do that
16:23:57 <korvo> Like, you should spend 4wks *each* with a language from each of the families: Prolog, Smalltalk, Forth, Lisp, ML, and then an ALGOL for comparison.
16:24:17 <wWwwW> (^rlly like dis one^)
16:25:13 <korvo> Nah, you need an immersion in the *languages*, not just the "paradigms". Like, concretely try writing programs in miniKanren, Pharo, Factor, Racket, OCaml (or Haskell?) and then return to Python to see what you've learned.
16:25:37 <wWwwW> also i don think i have time for that
16:25:50 <wWwwW> also im a slow learner
16:26:09 <korvo> Explore what makes them useful. miniKanren is great for constraint solving (CSP). Pharo has interesting GUI and Web tools. Factor and OCaml will bend your mind. Racket will show you how to make new languages.
16:27:01 <korvo> ...Weren't you just saying that you were bored? A bored artist is not interesting. To be artistic is to constantly struggle to express oneself.
16:27:17 <wWwwW> well i do that too
16:27:26 <wWwwW> but i still don have time
16:27:44 <korvo> More seriously, I'm a musician and I used to spend hours at the piano practicing trills. My roommates do visual arts and are constantly talking of color theory, shading, etc. If you want to get into this stuff, you have to get *into* it.
16:28:02 <wWwwW> i get *into* programming
16:28:20 <wWwwW> idk if i work differently
16:28:26 <wWwwW> but my stuff gets gud
16:28:49 <wWwwW> i get somethin good
16:29:14 <korvo> Two things. First, relax and let your thoughts form complete sentences. You're not in a rush here; it's okay to take a minute and say what you want to say.
16:29:51 <wWwwW> until 8 o clock in denmark
16:29:56 <wWwwW> then i need to go to sleep
16:32:20 <korvo> Sure. Society asks too much of students. So, here's the second thing: at your age, you aren't expected to contribute to the future of esolangs. You certainly are allowed to contribute, but you're expected to take care of yourself and learn fundamentals first.
16:33:04 <korvo> It's *okay* to not have any dreams for new languages yet. I didn't start building languages until I was like 25 or 26 maybe, and I've only really written two serious languages, including one esolang.
16:33:20 <wWwwW> like thats what i am
16:33:41 <wWwwW> they fly around in my head
16:34:41 <wWwwW> idk what to do with them
16:35:09 <korvo> Learn a few dozen more languages and your head will quiet down. Right now you don't have many "schemata" (fancy psychology word), so each new language is going to seem like a radically new thing. Very interesting, much to learn.
16:36:02 <wWwwW> can they be esolangs
16:36:17 <wWwwW> my memory cant take like C or something
16:37:43 <korvo> They could be esolangs, but it'll be easier and more efficient to learn languages intended for serious use. I gave you a bunch of options earlier.
16:37:59 <wWwwW> but i dont have like
16:38:08 <wWwwW> the memory capacity
16:38:50 <korvo> Take your time. Keep the docs open and refer to them often. Don't force yourself to memorize anything. Focus on *expressing* the parts of the *problem* that you want to solve.
16:39:17 <korvo> I've been writing Python professionally for over a decade. I still look at the docs daily.
16:39:58 <wWwwW> ill try haskell then
16:40:52 <wWwwW> but also the only reasaon ive learned pythonsi cuz i had another human involved
16:41:44 <korvo> Sure. When you're just starting out, you might need in-person discussions from tutors or classes. That's common.
16:42:02 <wWwwW> or the social skill
16:42:48 <korvo> Python meetups are usually free. Ask the people who introduced you to programming. There's likely something nearby.
16:43:23 <wWwwW> #im danish and my teacher is southafrican
16:43:35 <korvo> And yes, you'll have to build social skills if you don't want to teach yourself by reading lots of books. You have to have information presented to you one way or another.
16:43:48 <wWwwW> like conferences f my brain
16:44:02 <wWwwW> mostly cuz i go bullied at school and still do
16:44:13 <wWwwW> thats not something to talk about here
16:44:13 <korvo> Me too. Don't worry, eventually school ends.
16:44:31 <wWwwW> is it annoying every day lol
16:45:37 <wWwwW> the worst thing is that they bully my brother
16:45:42 <wWwwW> ig im just a "nerd"
16:48:59 <esolangs> [[By+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138795 * Catto.4 * (+2549) created page for by+
16:50:02 <wWwwW> im taking totorial
16:51:01 <wWwwW> oh so in atou applies
16:51:23 <korvo> Haskell is a community flavor of Miranda, itself an attempt to make Lazy ML practical. Miranda was not Free Software for a long time, and the Haskell community formed to fix that.
16:52:07 <korvo> It's worth knowing about e.g. OCaml, which also inherits from ML via SML but is not lazy. The whole lazy-vs-eager thing, or strict vs non-strict, is a big deal.
16:52:41 <wWwwW> rn im doing haskell
16:52:54 <wWwwW> also why the hell is there the lambda symbol?
16:54:04 <wWwwW> the in makes definitions
16:54:17 <korvo> When Alonzo Church went to typeset his work, he wanted to write something like a hat or overbar on top of each variable, like `ô.î.o` for what Haskellers would write as `\o -> \i -> o`.
16:54:36 <korvo> However, the typesetter couldn't really do that, and the best they could do was to write a lambda before each variable name.
16:54:52 <korvo> It could be worse; Pythonistas would write `lambda o: lambda i: o`.
16:58:39 <korvo> wWwwW: As you learn more history, you'll be like "oh yeah, Church's lambda calculus". And later, you'll be like "oh that's the K combinator!"
16:58:42 <esolangs> [[By+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138796&oldid=138795 * Catto.4 * (+127) added optional argument to base
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17:15:50 <korvo> Nah, "smart" and "stupid" don't really mean much. You're *inexperienced*, and that's okay.
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17:29:33 <wWwwW> i dont want to go so deep
17:34:33 <wWwwW> what are you doin rn
17:34:42 <wWwwW> im questioning my own person
17:35:30 <wWwwW> what are you doing?
17:36:11 <wWwwW> want somethin to do(lol)
17:37:12 <wWwwW> cuz then i have something
17:39:41 <wWwwW> helping me solve for dis: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
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17:43:35 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138797&oldid=138777 * Yayimhere * (+49)
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17:50:53 <wWwwW> holeee i forgot this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/W)
17:55:45 <wWwwW> like why did i make tht
17:55:50 <wWwwW> what do you think?
17:56:08 <wWwwW> also bracket part of link
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18:08:52 <korvo> I think that joke languages shouldn't be the primary targets for disambiguations, unless they are as notable as INTERCAL.
18:10:01 <korvo> Oh, I was looking at W, sorry.
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18:10:24 <ais523> although iNTERCAL is a joke by normal language standards, it is not a joke by esolang standards
18:10:35 <korvo> I don't have any serious opinions about Final Word of the Day yet. I can't really say much about a language without seeing its syntax: tokens, grammar, encoding, etc.
18:11:38 <ais523> Final Word of the Day makes me wonder if it would be possible to design an esolang in that style, sufficiently to narrow it down to only one possible language
18:11:58 <ais523> in a way, it is a declarative esolang specification, as opposed to the normal imperative style of writing specifications
18:12:18 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138798&oldid=134904 * Yayimhere * (+179)
18:13:26 <korvo> Ah, I see now. w> looks fun. I've seen similar 2D languages before but I'm struggling to recall any of their names.
18:14:58 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138799&oldid=138776 * Yayimhere * (+12)
18:16:10 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138800&oldid=138799 * Yayimhere * (+0)
18:16:59 <ais523> this doesn't explain whether the pointer turns left or right, when turning 90 degrees
18:17:26 <ais523> also, starting in the top left moving left is weird – you would have to change the pointer direction immediately to prevent it escaping the program
18:17:45 <wWwwW> it turns 90 degrees
18:17:49 <wWwwW> from current direction
18:17:58 <wWwwW> if its going down it would go right
18:18:00 <ais523> I think most 2D languages solve the "does it turn left or right?" problem by having two commands, one for each direction
18:18:09 <ais523> going left is also 90 degrees from down, though
18:18:34 <ais523> oh, there is more than one convention for this
18:18:52 <ais523> some mathematical conventions have it always measured anticlockwise, in which case you can say "90 degrees anticlockwise"
18:18:53 <wWwwW> how would i write that
18:19:02 <ais523> I think that's the one you're using
18:19:28 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138801&oldid=138798 * Yayimhere * (+14)
18:19:50 <ais523> korvo: re: existing languages, there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shove but it's different enough to probably not be a see also – there might be a more similar one
18:20:35 <korvo> ais523: I always think of these as "laser tank" languages after a childhood puzzle game that involved shooting laser beams at mazes of mirrors.
18:21:05 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Black was vaguely inspired by such a game
18:21:11 <ais523> although all the rules are different
18:21:53 <korvo> Nice. Very similar vibe, yeah.
18:22:11 <ais523> early in esolangs.org's history, people were looking to make a 2D language with only one command + NOP
18:22:12 <wWwwW> BLACK IS THE BEST(im a black lover lol)
18:22:32 <wWwwW> ais523: like 1L_x?
18:22:48 <ais523> Black was my attempt, although looking at adjacent squares makes it cheating in a way
18:23:09 <ais523> (much later I produced https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopstacle)
18:24:15 <ais523> oops, I think I tagged Nopstacle as implemented by mistake
18:24:28 <wWwwW> the fact that Turnfunge is insane to me
18:24:35 <esolangs> [[Nopstacle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138802&oldid=130573 * Ais523 * (+2) fix categorisation mistake
18:24:38 <wWwwW> the things that are TC man
18:25:05 <ais523> it took a lot of practice as a community before we got that style of language to be TC that simply
18:25:20 <ais523> back when we were starting out, we couldn't do much better than https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L_a
18:26:27 <wWwwW> Turnfunge reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/OFFICIAL
18:26:59 <ais523> (also apparently 1L_a still hasn't been proven TC? I might have a look at that)
18:27:18 <wWwwW> im the one who talked 'bout that right?
18:28:07 <wWwwW> that was on i think 1L_A somethin somethin
18:29:24 <wWwwW> dis one: https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L_AOI
18:30:03 <ais523> my guess is that OFFICIAL is sub-TC, although it is able to count arbitrarily high I don't think there's any way to read any form of counter it has when it gets large enough to escape the original bounds of the program
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18:35:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/(x]] to [[Gora]]
18:37:48 <ais523> hmm, I'm not convinced 1L_AOI is TC, it looks like there is no way to set a zero cell to nonzero because if the MP is over a zero cell, you can't change direction and thus can't change the command from an MP-moving command to a value-changing command
18:38:44 <ais523> and cpressey noticed the same thing a while ago
18:40:05 <esolangs> [[1L AOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138805&oldid=31425 * Ais523 * (-28) remove Turing tarpits category although it was intended to be one, it has no way to change zero values to nonzero (see comments by Chris Pressey on talk), and needs to change values to zero in order to test them, thus can only read memory finitely many times and is not TC
18:43:38 <esolangs> [[1L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138806&oldid=90777 * Ais523 * (+104) add Turnfunge and Nopstacle
18:44:02 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138807&oldid=138803 * Ractangle * (+181)
18:44:25 <ais523> OK, so what if we average Turnfunge (turn left when there is a solid cell behind the pointer) and Nopstacle (turn left when there is a solid cell in front of the pointer), producing a "turn left when there is a solid cell at the pointer" language
18:45:03 <ais523> I initially assumed that was sub-TC because otherwise Turnfunge would have been defined like that, but that isn't actually valid reasoning so I should think about it properly
18:45:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138808&oldid=138634 * Ractangle * (+52) /* Esolangs */
18:46:02 <ais523> ah, I see, it's reversible, which doesn't necessarily make it sub-TC but makes the proof much harder
18:47:27 <ais523> even in 2024, I think it is still the case that we have no good tarpits for TCness proofs of reversible counter machines (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flow_of_Holes was designed as a step in that sort of proof but it isn't a very simple one)
18:48:28 <ais523> and in particular I am not sure that two counters is enough for a reversible counter machine to be TC
18:48:52 <ais523> (but I am also not sure that it is not enough)
18:49:51 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138809&oldid=138808 * Ractangle * (+36) /* Esolangs */
18:52:47 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138810&oldid=138807 * Ractangle * (+156)
19:06:24 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138811&oldid=138810 * Ractangle * (+7)
19:09:40 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138812&oldid=138811 * Ractangle * (+44)
19:22:45 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138813&oldid=138812 * Ractangle * (+40)
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19:31:30 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138814&oldid=138813 * Ractangle * (+30)
19:37:02 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138815&oldid=138814 * Ractangle * (+70) /* Syntax */
19:37:52 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138816&oldid=138815 * Ractangle * (+132) /* Examples */
19:40:40 <esolangs> [[By+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138817&oldid=138796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
19:42:31 <esolangs> [[Spacechem Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138818&oldid=40146 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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20:18:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138819&oldid=138761 * Tommyaweosme * (+296) /* gd auto level */
20:24:54 <fizzie> Bah. Tried to use a test query of "Could you explain what the Funciton language is all about?" for the LLM thing (updated the model), but the keyword extraction scheme helpfully extracted the keyword "function", which of course doesn't find anything relevant, so the model output was just: > The "Funciton" language is not mentioned in the text. It's likely a typo or a term not relevant to the
20:25:58 <fizzie> It's now using Gemma 2.0 rather than 1.1, since they released the 2B(-ish) parameter size version of Gemma 2 as well. But really the model quality hasn't been the (main) problem in getting useful responses: the search and article selection is (plus context size limits that haven't changed).
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20:27:06 <fizzie> I think I probably just need some sort of maybe TF-IDF-ranked full text search thing on the original question, as-is, rather than asking the model to extract search keywords.
20:28:26 <fizzie> (Or maybe I could just use the custom Google search API, they've indexed the wiki anyway and it has a free tier of 100 queries per day. I just liked the notion of this being entirely self-hosted.)
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