←2024-09-14 2024-09-15 2024-09-16→ ↑2024 ↑all
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00:17:12 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139318&oldid=139317 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) Categories
00:17:35 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139319&oldid=139318 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18)
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03:08:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139320&oldid=138198 * Rosenthal * (-4) Update link to its redirect target
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03:41:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139321&oldid=139135 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+367)
03:41:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139322&oldid=139321 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17)
03:42:03 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139323&oldid=139251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Categories
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04:08:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139324&oldid=139322 * Yayimhere * (+102)
04:13:17 <esolangs> [[Brainshit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139325&oldid=139203 * Yayimhere * (+32)
04:22:19 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139326&oldid=139323 * Yayimhere * (+9) /* operators */
04:23:05 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139327&oldid=139326 * Yayimhere * (+23) /* operators */
04:26:02 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139328&oldid=139327 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* operators */
04:33:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139329&oldid=139320 * Rosenthal * (+2) Separate implementations by different authors
04:38:45 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139330&oldid=139328 * Yayimhere * (+252) /* operators */
04:38:53 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139331&oldid=139330 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* operators */
04:41:56 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139332&oldid=139331 * Yayimhere * (+147)
04:42:14 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139333&oldid=139332 * Yayimhere * (+7) /* exclusions */
04:42:26 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139334&oldid=139333 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* exclusions */
04:52:04 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139335&oldid=139334 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* operators */
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05:07:26 <wWwwW> we discussed stuff with
05:07:28 <wWwwW> ummm
05:07:30 <wWwwW> BCKW
05:07:32 <wWwwW> and SK
05:07:36 <wWwwW> you know
05:07:39 <wWwwW> does order matter
05:07:46 <wWwwW> do they need to have the order they have
05:14:01 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139336&oldid=139335 * Yayimhere * (+47) /* operators */
05:14:03 <korvo> No, the orders "BCKW", "BCI", "SK", and "SKI" are all traditional. You'll sometimes see people put them in other orders.
05:14:24 <wWwwW> no
05:14:25 <esolangs> [[Domino Crisis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139337&oldid=135598 * PrySigneToFry * (+684) To proof that it is Turing-Complete
05:14:26 <wWwwW> i meant
05:14:30 <wWwwW> if you create
05:14:33 <wWwwW> B
05:14:35 <wWwwW> but this B
05:14:42 <wWwwW> take input in this order:
05:14:49 <wWwwW> B z y x
05:14:52 <wWwwW> or something
05:14:53 <wWwwW> idk
05:15:05 <wWwwW> it still does x (y z)
05:15:16 <wWwwW> but inputs are taken in a different order
05:15:32 <korvo> Sure. It depends on what's available. This is the power of C; in this case, CB is the flip of B.
05:15:49 <wWwwW> k thx!
05:15:53 <wWwwW> also
05:15:56 <wWwwW> ive made progress
05:16:01 <wWwwW> on the savage bapge
05:16:03 <wWwwW> *page
05:16:13 <wWwwW> nearly everything ids a lambda expression
05:16:14 <wWwwW> as well
05:16:21 <wWwwW> as that we have rules for what can apply
05:16:24 <wWwwW> :]
05:17:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139338&oldid=138374 * PrySigneToFry * (+744) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */ new section
05:18:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139339&oldid=139338 * Yayimhere * (+103) /* Mihai is unbanned! */
05:18:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139340&oldid=139339 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* Mihai is unbanned! */
05:20:11 <wWwwW> i still wonder if BKWI can get C
05:21:51 <wWwwW> it keeps me up at night
05:21:53 <wWwwW> lol
05:24:07 <korvo> I don't think so. I thought about it a bit more. BWKI is a theory of categories with finite products and a "diagonal", which is how category theorists talk about W's action.
05:24:55 <wWwwW> k
05:25:25 <korvo> And it's folklore that this isn't quite enough to talk about flips, which imply that the product has the ability to swap its left-hand and right-hand components.
05:25:41 <wWwwW> k
05:25:44 <wWwwW> i like
05:25:54 <wWwwW> how even in programming we have "folklore"
05:25:55 <wWwwW> lol
05:26:05 <korvo> I know it's not an understandable explanation. I just want to assure you that it's probably not possible so that you don't lose more sleep.
05:27:03 <wWwwW> lol:]
05:28:00 <wWwwW> i feel like
05:28:13 <wWwwW> you know how some conjectures n' stuff takes years to proove or stuff
05:28:14 <wWwwW> in math
05:28:32 <wWwwW> then there's just dis community with a single person proving that black is TC
05:28:34 <wWwwW> or something else
05:28:51 <wWwwW> this group of ppl that is the esolang community is just insane
05:29:02 <wWwwW> i feel like
05:29:19 <korvo> Every proven conjecture has some single person somewhere at the end, too. Look at Fermat's Last Theorem for a famous recent example.
05:29:32 <wWwwW> true
05:29:34 <wWwwW> but like
05:29:41 <wWwwW> so many ppl worked on it before
05:29:45 <wWwwW> like for example
05:29:55 <wWwwW> ive prooved like 90 procent of my esolangs TC
05:30:04 <korvo> Also, if it helps, most programmers refuse to learn category theory or any other formal methods. Programming and software engineering are depressingly non-formal disciplines.
05:30:04 <wWwwW> (ignore my old ones)
05:30:13 <wWwwW> true
05:30:27 <wWwwW> wait
05:30:31 <wWwwW> is dis possible
05:30:33 <wWwwW> :
05:30:40 <wWwwW> you have a problem
05:31:12 <wWwwW> and its a undecidable problem to see if that problem is decidable not
05:31:22 <wWwwW> *deciadeable or not
05:31:32 <wWwwW> *decidable
05:32:39 <korvo> Not exactly. We have to be more precise with terminology.
05:32:46 <wWwwW> ok
05:32:55 <wWwwW> i will try to be better
05:32:57 <wWwwW> ig
05:33:03 <wWwwW> say we have a problem P
05:33:13 <wWwwW> it has properties
05:33:14 <korvo> So, it's known statically whether something is a "decision problem". This is literally just a yes-or-no question about some inputs.
05:33:26 <esolangs> [[BrainTangle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139341 * PrySigneToFry * (+2880) Created page with "BrainTangle is an Esolang invented by PSTF and his (because he don't use ChatGPT now). == Syntax Overview == === Data Types === BrainTangle only has one data type: a single-character string (a "tangle"). Operations on tangles are performed by manipulating the
05:33:37 <wWwwW> true
05:33:41 <esolangs> [[BrainTangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139342&oldid=139341 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
05:33:43 <wWwwW> so its bascically
05:33:59 <korvo> If we say this problem is "undecidable", what we mean is that the *set of inputs* is undecidable, and more specifically that we can't decide whether an input is in the yes-set.
05:34:12 <wWwwW> k
05:34:31 <korvo> You'll see terminology like "semidecidable" which is more specific about the no-set.
05:34:44 <wWwwW> k
05:35:12 <korvo> Now, that all said, we can have sets of decision problems. There's no reason we can't have an undecidable subset of such a set.
05:35:40 <wWwwW> yes
05:38:56 <korvo> Here's what I think is a real example from complexity theory. Let P/poly be the class P, but answers to each problem may be non-uniform, giving a polynomial amount of advice to each input.
05:39:25 <wWwwW> k
05:40:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gd auto level]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139343&oldid=138977 * PrySigneToFry * (+33)
05:40:23 <korvo> Also let TALLY be the class of unary languages. TALLY is a subclass of P/poly. You can think of TALLY problems as counting up the size of the input and making a decision just based on that, so the poly advice just has to tell you whether this size is acceptable.
05:40:38 <wWwwW> k
05:40:57 <korvo> But, uh, TALLY contains Halting for unary TMs, so it's undecidable whether an arbitrary program in P/poly is also in TALLY.
05:41:06 <wWwwW> side qeustion: none of tally are TC right?
05:41:11 <wWwwW> *question'
05:41:19 <wWwwW> oh yea
05:42:41 <wWwwW> ok
05:42:50 <wWwwW> so its undecidable
05:42:55 <wWwwW> that problm
05:42:58 <wWwwW> *problem
05:44:21 <wWwwW> k
05:47:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139344&oldid=139329 * Rosenthal * (+1) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */ Fix missing shift marker
05:58:00 <wWwwW> also
05:58:09 <wWwwW> KBWS is TC right
05:58:56 <korvo> Yes, because SK is TC.
05:59:06 <wWwwW> oh yea
05:59:18 <wWwwW> also i found a little "quirk" if you will with k
05:59:26 <wWwwW> K can be passed to itself FOREVER
05:59:33 <wWwwW> KKKKKKKKKKKKKK....
06:00:37 <esolangs> [[^]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139345 * MihaiEso * (+2222) Created page with "'''^''' is a special language for all Chinese people! == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! !! English !! Meaning |- | "[]" || Print "[text]" || Prints a string of text |- | [] || Output [variable] || Outputs the value of a variable |- | [] || Input [var
06:01:02 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139346&oldid=139142 * MihaiEso * (+59)
06:01:12 <wWwwW> YES
06:01:17 <wWwwW> YESYEYSYEYSYEYSYEYSYEYSYYSYEY
06:01:19 <wWwwW> I
06:01:23 <wWwwW> HAVE FOUND
06:01:24 <wWwwW> S
06:01:26 <wWwwW> AND
06:01:28 <wWwwW> K
06:01:38 <wWwwW> IN Savage Operator
06:01:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139347&oldid=139014 * MihaiEso * (+14) /* Non-alphabetic */
06:03:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139348&oldid=139347 * Yayimhere * (+22) /* S */
06:03:19 <wWwwW> im very a
06:03:22 <wWwwW> happy
06:06:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139349&oldid=139340 * MihaiEso * (+164) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
06:06:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139350&oldid=139349 * MihaiEso * (+1) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
06:10:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139351&oldid=139344 * Rosenthal * (+11) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */ Split into `x = not x` and `y = not x`
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06:40:19 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139352&oldid=139351 * Rosenthal * (+1) /* x = x and y (boolean, logical) */ Fix destination classifications
06:43:04 <esolangs> [[Category:CJK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139353&oldid=8237 * MihaiEso * (+19)
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06:54:13 <PCWWWWW> i could share if ya want
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07:18:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139354&oldid=139352 * Rosenthal * (+33) /* x = x or y (boolean, logical) */ Split by destination
07:21:12 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139355 * PrySigneToFry * (+5536) Created page with "BubbleLang is designed by PSTF. == Name == I don't know why, but I like this name because I like the shape of circle and sphere. == Sources of inspiration == I let my to generate an Esolang, and I inspired from that. I'm also inspired from Python and C++.
07:26:21 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139356&oldid=139354 * Rosenthal * (-46) Combine z = x or y sections
07:33:51 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139357&oldid=139199 * Xff * (+1) /* information */
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07:37:49 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139358&oldid=139355 * MihaiEso * (+29) /* Categories */
07:38:08 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139359&oldid=139152 * MihaiEso * (+14)
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07:47:40 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139360&oldid=127758 * MihaiEso * (+49) /* Esoteric languages invented by AI */
07:52:30 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139361&oldid=139357 * Xff * (+175)
07:53:19 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139362&oldid=139361 * Xff * (+26)
07:57:40 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139363&oldid=139362 * Xff * (+0) /* information */
07:59:35 <esolangs> [[Srry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139364 * Xff * (+353) Created page with "'''srry''' is [[Sorry]] but with one change. == the change == now we only have <code>[]</code> with a conditional. if they hold two nothings(two spaces) then we will do <code>^</code> else we will do <code>[]</code>. also it pops top. so now <code>[''x'']</code> is: [ ][''x'']
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08:01:24 <esolangs> [[2d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139365&oldid=136378 * Ais523 * (-29) rm hatnote similarly named language was renamed
08:01:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Ractangle/2D]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was deuserfied
08:02:28 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139366&oldid=139090 * Ais523 * (+14) bypass double redirect
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08:15:42 <esolangs> [[Brains***]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139367 * MihaiEso * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainshit]]
08:15:52 <esolangs> [[Brains**t]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139368 * MihaiEso * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainshit]]
08:17:28 <esolangs> [[Brainshit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139369&oldid=139325 * Yayimhere * (-19)
08:24:24 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139370&oldid=139336 * Yayimhere * (+289) /* operators */
08:32:16 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139371&oldid=139138 * MihaiEso * (+389) /* Horribly translated variants */
08:41:40 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139372 * Yayimhere * (+26) Redirected page to [[Unassignable]]
08:48:41 <wWwwW> i got an rlly weird esolang idea
08:48:46 <wWwwW> its like a 2d esolang
08:48:49 <wWwwW> but like
08:49:00 <wWwwW> it uses combinatory logic style operators
08:49:29 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139373 * Yayimhere * (+312) Created page with "'''FrontFlip''' is a version of [[Backflip]] with two new commands == new commands == there are two new commands: {| class="wikitable" |- ! command !! description |- | [ || copy it and the comand right to it in pointer direction and turn 90 degrees clockwise |- | ^
08:49:35 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139374&oldid=139373 * Yayimhere * (+1)
08:50:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139375&oldid=139159 * Yayimhere * (+11)
08:50:35 <esolangs> [[Srry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139376&oldid=139364 * Yayimhere * (+69)
08:52:33 <wWwwW> and korvo if your readin dis my goal is to see what the difference between 2d and 1d is and how far you can go with each
08:54:16 <esolangs> [[And then]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139377&oldid=73088 * Ractangle * (+23)
08:55:23 <esolangs> [[BF-RLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139378&oldid=66268 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
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09:00:27 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139379&oldid=138850 * Ractangle * (-204)
09:00:35 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139380&oldid=139379 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello World */
09:00:43 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139381&oldid=139380 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Infinite Loop */
09:01:12 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139382&oldid=139381 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Examples */
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09:01:36 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139383&oldid=139382 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Commands */
09:02:31 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139384&oldid=138190 * Ractangle * (+1) /* CLFCE */
09:06:15 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139385&oldid=139198 * Ractangle * (-39) fixed the problem with the /* CLFCE */ section
09:09:03 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139386&oldid=139385 * Ractangle * (+24) /* CLFCE */
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09:37:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139387&oldid=139210 * Ractangle * (+8) /* computational class */
09:37:38 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139388&oldid=139387 * Ractangle * (+0) /* computational class */
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09:58:31 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139389&oldid=139358 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
09:59:30 <esolangs> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139390&oldid=66248 * Ractangle * (+22) /* To Do */
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10:04:56 <esolangs> [[13ial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139391 * Ractangle * (+115) Created page with "'''13ial''' (or '''13 instruction assembly language''') is basicly self explanatory. It's a 13 instruction assembly"
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10:36:08 <esolangs> [[13ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139392&oldid=139391 * Ractangle * (+39)
10:36:58 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139393&oldid=138968 * Yayimhere * (+89) /* commands */
10:39:08 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139394&oldid=139356 * Rosenthal * (+8) /* if (x) { code1 } else { code2 } */ Divide different implementations
10:39:48 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139395&oldid=139393 * Yayimhere * (+87) /* commands */
10:46:14 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139396&oldid=139389 * PrySigneToFry * (-29) Just inspired from, not really generated by AI
10:47:29 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139397&oldid=139395 * Yayimhere * (+117)
10:48:30 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139398&oldid=137334 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Commands */
10:49:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139399&oldid=139350 * PrySigneToFry * (+672)
10:50:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139400&oldid=139398 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Commands */
10:53:41 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139401&oldid=139400 * Ractangle * (-42) /* Truth-machine */
10:54:12 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139402&oldid=139401 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Truth-machine */
10:55:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139403&oldid=139402 * Ractangle * (-98) If there is no "End of road". The program will go back to the start (and ignoring the Start of road)
10:57:28 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139404&oldid=139403 * Ractangle * (+0) IT'S I [[User:Ractangle]]
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10:59:52 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139405&oldid=139397 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
11:00:25 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139406&oldid=139394 * Rosenthal * (+79) Consistently separate implementations and format attributions
11:03:03 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139407&oldid=139312 * Ractangle * (-1) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
11:03:26 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139408&oldid=139407 * Ractangle * (-12) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
11:04:36 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139409&oldid=139310 * Ractangle * (-13) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
11:04:55 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139410&oldid=139409 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Spoiler: */
11:05:06 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139411&oldid=139319 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Challenge */
11:05:58 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139412&oldid=139411 * Ractangle * (-1)
11:07:07 <wWwwW> hey ais523 what do you think of my underload minimazation?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorry
11:15:54 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139413&oldid=139360 * Ractangle * (+40) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */
11:16:27 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139414&oldid=139413 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */
11:17:17 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139415&oldid=139359 * Ractangle * (+5)
11:20:53 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139416&oldid=133988 * Ractangle * (+22) /* CATEGORIES */
11:22:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139417&oldid=139348 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
11:25:01 <esolangs> [[User:Noner Kao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139418&oldid=53977 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Projects */
11:27:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139419&oldid=128486 * Ractangle * (+223)
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11:33:22 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139420&oldid=139406 * Rosenthal * (+4) /* x = pseudo-random number */ Divide unrelated implementations
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11:44:48 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139421&oldid=139420 * Rosenthal * (-3) /* Divmod algorithm */ Fix typos
11:48:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139422&oldid=139421 * Rosenthal * (-22) Remove redundant algorithm from headers
11:49:44 <int-e> Hmm. There really should be a better word than "illusion" to describe this thing: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/duckduckbunny.png (It is pretty cool (despite the (I assumed) edited clouds in the left part). Haven't watched the video...)
11:51:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck Python interpreter (ChatGPT)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139423 * Corbin * (+145) In this page, what does "optimized" mean?
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11:57:53 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139424&oldid=139422 * Rosenthal * (+29) /* Print value of cell x as number (8-bit) */ Attribute author
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12:16:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139425&oldid=139424 * Rosenthal * (-46) /* Input a decimal number */ Unindent code
12:19:45 <b_jonas> int-e: hehe, that's similar to the two horse-riders illusion I think
12:24:13 <b_jonas> two horse-riders (exists with both donkeys and horses, in lots of variants) => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN3z7eIqRg4
12:24:15 <PCWWWWW> wut would happen if SKI or something was evaluated lazily
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12:26:52 <wWwwW> i wonder
12:29:08 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe today's your introduction to Church-Rosser properties and confluence. In short: no, the results of evaluating combinators don't depend on evaluation order, but that's only because they don't have effects.
12:29:26 <wWwwW> k!
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12:31:28 <int-e> Some strategies will fail to find normal forms when they exist though. KI(SII(SII)) has normal form I but innermost reduction reduces it to itself in a couple of steps.
12:32:06 <wWwwW> k
12:32:13 <wWwwW> wait
12:32:20 <wWwwW> SII -> SII
12:32:30 <int-e> No, SII is a normal form
12:32:43 <wWwwW> normal form?
12:32:51 <int-e> it can't be reduced further
12:32:58 <wWwwW> oh
12:32:59 <wWwwW> ok
12:33:11 <int-e> In this context, -> usually denotes an actual reduction step.
12:33:25 <wWwwW> k
12:34:37 <wWwwW> thx
12:34:56 <int-e> SII(SII) -> I(SII)(I(SII)) -> I(SII)(SII) -> SII(SII) using innermost steps
12:35:07 <wWwwW> tf
12:35:10 <wWwwW> infinite loop
12:35:11 <wWwwW> yay
12:35:18 <wWwwW> so
12:35:25 <wWwwW> SII(SII) => SII(SII)
12:35:39 <wWwwW> where => is the "final" reduction
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12:37:21 <wWwwW> k
12:37:45 <wWwwW> would
12:37:49 <wWwwW> USI
12:37:52 <wWwwW> where U
12:37:56 <wWwwW> is KKx
12:38:00 <wWwwW> be TC?
12:38:07 <int-e> what is x?
12:38:13 <wWwwW> wait no
12:38:14 <wWwwW> U x
12:38:21 <wWwwW> would be KK x
12:38:34 <wWwwW> so you discard one input
12:38:45 <wWwwW> and return K on the non discareded one
12:38:50 <wWwwW> so
12:38:53 <int-e> So U = KK? That gives you KKI = K so it's essentially just SKI again.
12:39:06 <wWwwW> without I
12:39:17 <int-e> KKS = K then and you get I = SKK
12:39:29 <wWwwW> yes
12:39:34 <wWwwW> but you dont have K
12:39:40 <int-e> You have US = KKS = K
12:39:52 <wWwwW> oh yea
12:40:07 <int-e> or UU = KKU = K if you prefer that
12:40:18 <wWwwW> idc
12:40:20 <wWwwW> rlly
12:40:31 <wWwwW> wait so you replace the S with U
12:40:32 <wWwwW> how
12:40:34 <wWwwW> ok well
12:40:36 <wWwwW> oh well
12:41:02 <int-e> Well, Ux = KKx = K for any x.
12:41:18 <wWwwW> oh yea
12:41:20 <wWwwW> fuuu
12:41:22 <wWwwW> im stupid
12:41:48 <wWwwW> (sorry for asking so much im rlly into combinatory logic rn)
12:41:54 <wWwwW> but would RS be TC
12:42:08 <wWwwW> where R = BKxS
12:42:12 <wWwwW> Be TC?
12:42:18 <wWwwW> where B is from BCKW
12:42:38 <int-e> again, what's x?
12:42:47 <wWwwW> fuuu
12:42:50 <wWwwW> im sto stupid
12:43:03 <wWwwW> R x = B K x S
12:43:06 <wWwwW> or
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12:43:10 <wWwwW> wait no
12:43:20 <wWwwW> and no K is not applied to x
12:43:59 <wWwwW> wait yea
12:44:04 <wWwwW> K not applied to x yea
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12:50:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck Python interpreter (ChatGPT)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139426&oldid=139423 * MihaiEso * (+145)
12:50:46 <int-e> I don't know about that one.
12:51:14 <wWwwW> hmmm
12:51:15 <int-e> lol @esolangs
12:51:20 <wWwwW> lemme check real fast
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12:56:53 <wWwwW> idk
12:58:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you f*** the brain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139427 * MihaiEso * (+41) Redirected page to [[How dare you fuck the brain]]
13:01:29 <int-e> You have Rxy = xS which is something you don't get with S alone. But it's weaker than K. It may still be TC but it won't just reuse the fact that SK is TC; some extra work is necessary. It's also not obviously non-TC... AFAICS we don't even know that for the S combinator all by itself.
13:01:58 <int-e> err, AFAIK
13:02:45 <wWwwW> im prety sure with the Q operator it would work. Q x y = y x
13:02:46 <wWwwW> so
13:02:56 <wWwwW> QRxy = Sx
13:03:10 <int-e> no
13:03:25 <wWwwW> wait wut
13:03:37 <int-e> remember that QRxy is ((QR)x)y
13:03:52 <wWwwW> oh yea
13:03:54 <int-e> QRxy = xRy... and now it depends on x.
13:04:08 <wWwwW> then Q(Rxy) = Sx then right?
13:04:13 <int-e> Q(Rxy) = Q(xS) and it still depends on x.
13:04:26 <wWwwW> aaaa
13:05:45 <int-e> Even if you had ꙮxy = Sx and S the status (TC or not) would be unclear to me.
13:06:07 <wWwwW> ꙮ?
13:06:11 <wWwwW> why use ꙮ
13:06:16 <int-e> `w limerick
13:06:19 <HackEso> limerick//A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet.
13:06:33 <int-e> `' ꙮ
13:06:34 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
13:06:49 <wWwwW> k
13:06:49 <int-e> `unidecode ꙮ
13:06:51 <HackEso> ​[U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
13:07:11 <FireFly> ꙮh
13:07:30 <int-e> It's our favorite letter. ;-) (I'm making this up, but it's fair to say that we have a bit of culture around it.)
13:07:46 <wWwwW> k
13:07:51 <wWwwW> well i like it
13:08:06 <wWwwW> im making a esolang based on dis disscusion btw
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13:10:48 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139428 * Yayimhere * (+258) Created page with "'''FROSTWIRE-666''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its some combinators for [[Combinatory logic]] == combinators == FROSTWIRE-666 has these operators: S from SKI R x = B (K) x (S) Q x y = y x x y=S (K x y) G x=x x T x y z=B ( x y) x z"
13:10:56 <wWwwW> and there it is^^
13:10:56 <wWwwW> ^
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13:12:18 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139429&oldid=139428 * Yayimhere * (+13) /* combinators */
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13:14:13 <int-e> Hmm, would you rather make three dozen esolangs, or one that people actually care about?
13:14:29 <wWwwW> idk
13:14:40 <wWwwW> what time of the day is it?
13:14:49 <int-e> yes
13:15:14 <wWwwW> ????
13:15:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139430&oldid=128898 * Rosenthal * (+639) Ask about strange bitwise NOT
13:15:32 <int-e> time zones are a thing so I thought this was the best possible answer
13:15:51 <wWwwW> no
13:15:53 <wWwwW> i said'
13:15:53 <int-e> what's θ?
13:16:08 <int-e> you asked a question with no well-defined answer
13:16:11 <wWwwW> the answer to your question is dependent on timezone
13:16:32 <wWwwW> θ you could see on combinatory page
13:16:35 <wWwwW> no
13:16:40 <wWwwW> combinatory logic page
13:16:45 <wWwwW> more combinators
13:16:59 <wWwwW> Non-primitives
13:17:01 <wWwwW> spesifically
13:17:37 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139431&oldid=139429 * Yayimhere * (+39)
13:18:02 <b_jonas> `datei
13:18:04 <HackEso> 2024-09-15 13:18:03.701 +0000 UTC September 15 Sunday 2024-W37-7
13:18:17 <wWwwW> wow
13:18:24 <b_jonas> ``` TZ="Europe/Helsinki" datei # if you have a specific timezone in mind
13:18:27 <HackEso> 2024-09-15 16:18:26.283 +0300 EEST September 15 Sunday 2024-W37-7
13:18:38 <wWwwW> k
13:18:53 <b_jonas> also dateu for guaranteed UTC; datei actually uses the locale-dependent timezone, that just happens to default to UTC on HackEso these days
13:19:10 <b_jonas> um, no, technically not *locale*-dependent, but dependent on your environment and the fallback default in /etc
13:19:26 <wWwwW> kkk
13:20:45 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139432&oldid=139431 * Yayimhere * (-11)
13:22:04 <esolangs> [[User:Eugene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139433&oldid=139042 * Eugene * (+4)
13:22:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kin1009 * New user account
13:24:26 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139434&oldid=139375 * Yayimhere * (+20) /* esolangs */
13:31:56 <korvo> wWwwW: Combinatory logic isn't an esolang. In fact, it's not a language. I'd say that a better way to understand it is as a type or a pattern of constructors that can be put on top of types.
13:32:22 <korvo> esolangs: If combinatory logic is not a language, what is it?
13:32:29 <wWwwW> true
13:32:32 <wWwwW> ig
13:32:33 <b_jonas> combinatory logic is multiple esolangs, if you choose a basis and an evaluation strategy then it's a specific esolang
13:32:45 <wWwwW> also true
13:32:49 <korvo> Aw, the RAG bot's not working, I guess.
13:34:06 <esolangs> korvo: Combinatory logic is a **formal model of computation**. It's a way to describe how programs work, not a programming language itself. Think of it like a blueprint for how to build a computer program. It uses a set of rules and symbols to represent computations, and it's powerful enough to capture the essence of any program, even those written in...
13:34:06 <esolangs> other languages.
13:34:12 <b_jonas> I like {B,C,K,W,I} as the basis and leftmost inner (eager/unlambda) evolution
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13:35:04 <korvo> wWwwW: In particular, the terms we've been using the past few days are the *initial model*. All that means is, for any other model, there's a way to map each term into that other model.
13:35:23 <wWwwW> ooh
13:35:34 <b_jonas> but these days I prefer multi-argument instead of single-argument lambdas, which corresonds mostly to the Amicus language instead of traditional Church style combinatory logic
13:35:49 <korvo> So, like, suppose I implement S and K in Python. Then I can map any term of S and K into Python using that implementation, and it'll still behave as expected.
13:35:53 <b_jonas> well, Amicus without numbers
13:36:15 <korvo> (Like int-e says, "as expected" includes quirks of evaluation order. You have to carefully choose which of U, Y, or Z is your fixed-point combinator.)
13:36:32 <wWwwW> UYZ?
13:37:38 <wWwwW> ik about U i think
13:37:55 <korvo> U, Y, and Z all allow for some sort of recursion. They're very different in appearance, but that's mostly because of evaluation order.
13:38:08 <wWwwW> k
13:38:41 <korvo> The main point to understand is that U = \(00) in lambda calculus; it applies something to itself. It's the "Turing bird" we talked about the other day.
13:38:50 <korvo> You can tell it's important because https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic has a (!!!) next to it!
13:39:06 <wWwwW> lol
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13:40:00 <korvo> No, seriously. Like, consider my beloved https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy. Here's one thing I said: "the program (comp dup apply), sometimes called the "Turing bird", will be rejected by the toolchain as ill-typed."
13:40:22 <wWwwW> k
13:40:27 <korvo> And at the top: "each expression is an S-expression denoting a total function."
13:40:50 <korvo> Because Cammy's total, the toolchain *must* reject the Turing bird.
13:41:05 <wWwwW> k
13:41:13 <korvo> If you want to be TC, you *must* have a way to build either U or something with similar powers, like Y or Z.
13:41:21 <korvo> That's the main point.
13:41:30 <wWwwW> k
13:41:33 <wWwwW> also sorry
13:41:37 <wWwwW> i was kinda confused
13:41:39 <wWwwW> we above chat
13:41:47 <wWwwW> where i made *my* U
13:42:43 <korvo> No worries. That's one of the dangers of redefining standard names.
13:43:02 <wWwwW> i just choose a symbol
13:43:39 <korvo> I know. If it helps, that's how most of the combinators got standard names in the first place. I have a rule in my head that's like "C is for composition, no wait, C is for flips and B is for composition"
13:44:02 <wWwwW> ig you could use lol
13:44:08 <wWwwW> wait no
13:44:11 <korvo> K is for "konstant" and I is "identity" but I have no idea about the others. Smullyan gives them beautiful bird names which are also hard to remember.
13:44:33 <korvo> Like, B is for Bluebird. Okay, which is...? Even remembering the stories in the book doesn't really help.
13:44:47 <wWwwW> symbol for my U: ɭ
13:45:24 <korvo> (The actual way to remember B is to look at it as a miniature diagram depicting the composition of two arrows.)
13:45:34 <wWwwW> k
13:48:16 <b_jonas> I should document the B-C-K-W-I turing-completeness proof on the wiki at some point. We have https://esolangs.org/wiki/S_and_K_Turing-completeness_proof plus derivations of S and K at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#BCKW_calculus which is technically enough for a proof, but there's a direct proof that's somewhat interesting.
13:49:21 <korvo> I should formalize some of the reductions. I know it's not hard to write a casual SKI reduction tool, but I don't think there's like a Metamath or Coq database.
13:49:36 <korvo> Oh, uh, *Rocq now, right?
13:50:38 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139435&oldid=133777 * B jonas * (-8) /* BCKW calculus */
13:51:23 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139436&oldid=139396 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
13:51:28 <int-e> "The rename is currently in preparation"
13:52:29 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139437&oldid=138271 * B jonas * (+147) /* Todo */
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14:04:04 <wWwwW> i made this. doesnt this delete Bsckflip's memory limitation?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/FrontFlip
14:04:09 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139438&oldid=139374 * Yayimhere * (+0)
14:11:12 <b_jonas> korvo: SKI reduction tool => David Madore's unlambda writeup http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/#impl explains how to do that
14:12:20 <wWwwW> i still like how from a set perspective BCI can do nothing
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14:24:45 <wWwwW> hello ais
14:28:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:HecknTarnation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139439 * Yayimhere * (+136) Created page with "wanna make a esolang with me maybe idk ?? [:~~~~:]"
14:31:44 <korvo> b_jonas: Okay, so with careful consideration, I think that it should be *theoretically* possible to compile Unlambda to a graph-reduction machine (as efficient as GHC) after first doing a continuation-passing transformation.
14:34:00 <korvo> But it is remarkable how it was an open question just a few decades ago.
14:34:54 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139440&oldid=139371 * MihaiEso * (+514) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:35:39 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139441&oldid=139432 * Yayimhere * (+27) /* combinators */
14:37:46 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139442 * PrySigneToFry * (+809) Created page with "== Swap two numbers == <pre> function swap(x: int*, y: int*): var t: int* = x x = y y = t </pre> Thus makes these things: === Bubble sort === <pre> function swap(x: int*, y: int*): var t: int* = x x = y y = t function bubble_so
14:38:28 <b_jonas> korvo: I'm mostly thinking of the subset without c and d, so basically just ski calculus
14:39:48 <korvo> b_jonas: Ah, sure. There's a fully-worked series of articles on that here: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/compiler/
14:39:55 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139443&oldid=139436 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
14:40:40 <ais523> <wWwwW> hey ais523 what do you think of my underload minimazation?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorry ← it's not very Underload-like
14:40:54 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139444&oldid=139442 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
14:40:58 <wWwwW> true
14:41:16 <wWwwW> it was just an atempt to make the minimal command set smaller
14:41:41 <ais523> what happens if you try to run a command with unmatched brackets?
14:41:47 <wWwwW> oof
14:41:52 <wWwwW> i need to specify
14:41:54 <wWwwW> im so stupid
14:41:56 <wWwwW> but umm
14:41:57 <wWwwW> error
14:42:16 <ais523> there's already a minimization of Underload to two commands here: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#A_two-command_basis_for_a_pure_concatenative_language
14:42:27 <wWwwW> oh
14:42:44 <wWwwW> wait
14:42:45 <wWwwW> wut
14:42:49 <wWwwW> thats 3 commands
14:42:52 <b_jonas> korvo: even with the c builtin, r5rs is from 1998 so presumably they knew how to implement all that at the point, and unlambda with c (possibly without d) is trivial to compile to r5rs scheme, it has the full lexical local variables, lamdbas, and full call-with-current-continuation
14:42:55 <wWwwW> the copy push and eval command
14:43:02 <ais523> no, it's just M and ^
14:43:07 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139445&oldid=139363 * Yayimhere * (+79) /* information */
14:43:18 <wWwwW> oh
14:43:20 <wWwwW> OOOO
14:43:21 <b_jonas> so it was known for at least 26 years, I suspect longer
14:43:21 <wWwwW> fuuuu
14:43:30 <ais523> where M is equivalent to (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) in Underload
14:43:36 <wWwwW> oh yea
14:43:40 <wWwwW> im sto STUPID
14:43:41 <wWwwW> lol
14:43:41 <ais523> I think it was me who designed that originally
14:43:44 <wWwwW> *so
14:43:47 <wWwwW> whe
14:43:50 <wWwwW> wait no
14:43:57 <wWwwW> forget that message
14:44:22 <korvo> b_jonas: There's a question of efficiency when it comes to "sharing" (avoiding copying) in lazy contexts, and I think Scheme isn't likely to ever really solve this. I don't think typical implementations do much sharing besides lambda-lifting.
14:44:36 <ais523> the positions of most of the commands inside don't really matter, but the (~) being at the start and (!!!!!!) at the end (with length that's enough to pop all the things M pushed, plus 1) is key to how it works
14:44:47 <wWwwW> k
14:44:48 <b_jonas> korvo: sure, scheme and unlambda are non-lazy in the same way
14:44:50 <korvo> But yeah, I see your point. In terms of compiler engineering effort, yes, Unlambda compiles easily to Scheme.
14:45:06 <wWwwW> i also minimized sorry to srry(on command but very much not underlaod like)
14:45:18 <ais523> korvo: I think most interpreters along those lines do the copying lazily and don't have other optimizations
14:46:02 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139446&oldid=139370 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* Turing-completeness */
14:46:33 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139447&oldid=139446 * Yayimhere * (+11) /* Turing-completeness */
14:46:58 <ais523> int-e: wrt combinatoric logic normal forms, I generally think of them being in normal forms if no reduction rules are even possible to apply to the term you have
14:47:17 <ais523> so SII doesn't have a normal form, the way I think about it – you can keep applying reduction rules indefinitely
14:47:37 <ais523> whereas something like K(SI) is a normal form because none of the combinators has enough arguments to do anything
14:47:57 <wWwwW> why is it that so many combinators are named after birds???
14:48:00 <wWwwW> turings bird
14:48:02 <wWwwW> ect.
14:48:27 <korvo> wWwwW: That'd be the Smullyan book I mentioned earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Mock_a_Mockingbird
14:48:49 <int-e> ais523: No reduction rules apply to SII. You're probably confusing SII and SII(SII)
14:48:50 <wWwwW> oh
14:48:54 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139448&oldid=139443 * PrySigneToFry * (+53)
14:49:20 <int-e> (SII is what you get from \x. x x by abstraction elimination.)
14:49:31 <ais523> int-e: err, yes, I meant SII(SII)
14:49:40 <b_jonas> yup, the Mockingbird book which tells about a series of possibly enchanted forests which each have a population of birds closed to application
14:49:43 <ais523> SII is in normal form already, S takes three arguments
14:49:48 <int-e> ais523: and yes, SII(SII) doesn't have a normal form
14:49:55 <korvo> (And SII actually *captures* it, because SIIx -> x(x))
14:50:02 <b_jonas> so you can apply any bird in a forest to any other, and the result is a bird that's also in the forest
14:50:05 <wWwwW> b_jonas wow. ...why tho?
14:50:12 <ais523> I was experimenting a lot with BCKW combinator calculus recently
14:50:15 <int-e> (with standard definitions from (first-order) rewriting)
14:50:19 <wWwwW> so the forest has every combinator
14:50:23 <wWwwW> or whatever you call i
14:50:25 <wWwwW> *it
14:50:40 <b_jonas> wWwwW: because if you have a few suitable starting birds, as in S and K, and can distinguish at least two birds, then you get a Turing-complete forest to which you can compile any computation
14:50:49 <ais523> just like SK combinator calculus is neater using I, BCKW combinator calculus is also neater with a couple of extra combinators
14:51:00 <b_jonas> so one day we (at least the people in that book) might be able to replace computers with birds
14:51:09 <wWwwW> lol
14:51:27 <ais523> one is I, the other is (flip id)
14:51:45 <korvo> You laugh, but some researchers built a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer out of crabs.
14:52:02 <wWwwW> ...
14:52:03 <wWwwW> why
14:52:10 <wWwwW> just fricking why
14:52:19 <int-e> why not?
14:52:19 <wWwwW> ppl do some weird stuff sometimes ._.
14:52:21 <korvo> Aren't you pumping out dozens of esolangs?
14:52:28 <wWwwW> true
14:52:37 <wWwwW> but also
14:52:51 <wWwwW> me ∈ ppl
14:53:04 <b_jonas> you need the property that you can distinguish two birds otherwise you can never extract any result from the computation,
14:53:09 <wWwwW> or am i?*plays Vsauce theme*
14:53:12 <ais523> anyway, flip can be defined entirely in terms of (flip id) and (.)
14:53:22 <ais523> my notes say F = A (V V) (A A (A (V A) (A A V))), where F is flip, V is (flip id) and A is (.)
14:53:41 <wWwwW> b_jonas so with a good bird identifier and a lot of birds you have somethign TC
14:53:42 <wWwwW> lol
14:53:53 <ais523> you can also define id (unsurprisingly), it's A (V V) (A A V)
14:54:01 <b_jonas> and you need a suitable basis of starting birds to exists otherwise you could get a boring trivial forest that has just unlmabda v and i which can only do boolean multiplication, though Smullyan actually discusses a few forests that are limited in a more interesting way than just that
14:54:09 <wWwwW> true
14:54:20 <korvo> wWwwW: Another way to understand what b_jonas is saying is that the final output of a (halted) computer is merely a projection of its internal state.
14:54:31 <wWwwW> agian true
14:54:46 <wWwwW> i got a full lesson about combinator logic today
14:54:47 <wWwwW> lol
14:54:56 <korvo> You don't have to be able to read a combinator from the (finitely) many feathers of a bird, merely a way to describe the bird *in terms of other birds*. Smullyan makes this point.
14:55:15 <ais523> but the really interesting thing is that I think there's enough power to define K like this, too (although I don't have the definition worked out), using a recursive definition of the form K a b c = K (a c) b
14:55:20 <b_jonas> korvo: the bird forests contain not only halting combinators though, it's really closed to application even if the result of that application is a bird without normal form
14:55:55 <ais523> although that might need some messing around with evaluation order
14:56:05 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah. In that sense, the birds (and combinatory logic) are actually *generalized* computation. They do more than what our physical computers can actually do.
14:56:08 <wWwwW> ais423: if so then k a b c = k a
14:56:11 <ais523> perhaps it should be K a b c = K (A a c) b so that a c doesn't go into an infinte loop
14:56:21 <wWwwW> right?
14:56:23 <ais523> wait, no
14:56:26 <ais523> I got it right first time
14:56:48 <wWwwW> i love how v is recursive
14:56:49 <ais523> so the point is that K a b = a (by definition), so K a b c = a c = K (a c) b
14:56:52 <wWwwW> in unlambda
14:57:00 <b_jonas> that is why near the end of the book professor Griffin expresses the view that maybe there's a forest that lets you do computations that a Turing-complete computer can't do
14:57:03 <wWwwW> right?
14:57:15 <wWwwW> b_jonas whyyyyyyyyy
14:57:24 <b_jonas> but there's no definite evidence of that forest
14:57:34 <wWwwW> why cant we just have TC as being the ,ost powerfull:[
14:57:36 <wWwwW> lol
14:57:38 <wWwwW> *most
15:00:25 <b_jonas> also Smullyan is careful enough that the book doesn't say anything about the speed of computation with birds. he says that given two birds in a forest you can find their application in the forest, but no time limit for how quickly you can find it, so it's quite possible that a computation that's slow on a computer is also slow using birds.
15:00:49 <b_jonas> so there's no reason to think that birds let you do exponentially slow computations quickly.
15:00:53 <wWwwW> TC≠fast
15:01:48 <wWwwW> right?
15:02:23 <b_jonas> specifically to do an application, you first have to sing the name of the argument word to the function bird, it sings back the name of the application result, and then you have to find the bird of that name. any of these steps could take a long time.
15:02:50 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139449 * PrySigneToFry * (+2689) Created page with "[[BubbleLang]] == Simple game == <pre> from random import randint print("Copyright by Spectre 2012~2024(C)\nAll right reserved.\n") var a = input("Please Input how many life do you have(If you guessing wrong, your life will be leaves 1): ") if a == ""
15:03:16 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church-Turing_thesis encapsulates the idea that there's no "effective method" more powerful than TC. It's necessarily informal.
15:04:06 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139450&oldid=139448 * PrySigneToFry * (+45)
15:04:09 <b_jonas> and, like all important questions, there's a lot of different versions of the Church-Turing thesis that you can choose from
15:04:10 <int-e> The support is basically that people have come up with a handful of different abstract-but-realistic models of computation, and they're all equally powerful.
15:05:09 <int-e> We have more powerful models too, often involving various oracles that transcend computable functions.
15:05:24 <wWwwW> true
15:05:45 <b_jonas> yep, that's why it's called Church-Turing: Church refers to untyped lambda calculus, while Turing refers to finite control with one writable tape Turing machines, these were found to be equivalently powerful
15:06:00 <wWwwW> yea
15:06:01 <wWwwW> ik
15:06:44 <int-e> And then there's whoever is responsible for recursive functions... (Kleene?)
15:07:39 <int-e> (Gödel too; he encoded those in PA.)
15:07:50 <b_jonas> David Madore has three different educational families of esolangs illustrating Turing-complete computations and computations more powerful than that
15:08:01 <wWwwW> Gödel is very good math person
15:08:53 <int-e> But not the greatest survivor.
15:09:02 <wWwwW> yes
15:09:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[BubbleLang/Examples]]": Copyright violation: apparently copy-paste of a copyrighted program written by someone else
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15:10:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139451&oldid=138265 * Ais523 * (+251) /* Copyright violations */ second warning
15:11:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139452&oldid=139451 * PrySigneToFry * (+633)
15:11:37 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139453&oldid=139450 * Ais523 * (-46) /* More example */ rm link to deleted page
15:13:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139454&oldid=139452 * PrySigneToFry * (+119)
15:15:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139455&oldid=139454 * PrySigneToFry * (+84)
15:15:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139456&oldid=139455 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
15:16:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139457&oldid=139456 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
15:16:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139458&oldid=139457 * Ais523 * (+416) /* Copyright violations */ if it has a copyright notice that's also a reason to reject it
15:18:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139459&oldid=139458 * PrySigneToFry * (+629)
15:18:50 <wWwwW> im bored and i want to make a esolang. any ideas?
15:19:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139460&oldid=139459 * PrySigneToFry * (-44) Fixed Span Script
15:19:26 <int-e> . o O ( go through your pages so far and improve them )
15:19:37 <wWwwW> k
15:19:54 <esolangs> [[Get there]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139461&oldid=126513 * Yayimhere * (-18) /* extra things and notes */
15:20:29 <esolangs> [[Category:Multi-dimensional-languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139462&oldid=129072 * PrySigneToFry * (-84)
15:20:51 <esolangs> [[Get there]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139463&oldid=139461 * Yayimhere * (-1913) even I cant understand it now
15:21:21 <esolangs> [[F uck you]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139464&oldid=139086 * Yayimhere * (-2147) i don like it
15:21:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139465&oldid=139434 * Yayimhere * (-31) /* esolangs */
15:24:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139466&oldid=139460 * PrySigneToFry * (+790)
15:24:48 <esolangs> [[Walls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139467&oldid=126979 * Yayimhere * (-4)
15:25:13 <esolangs> [[S.B.M.F.B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139468&oldid=126516 * Yayimhere * (-2)
15:25:42 <esolangs> [[S.B.M.F.B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139469&oldid=139468 * Yayimhere * (-68)
15:25:49 <esolangs> [[S.B.M.F.B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139470&oldid=139469 * Yayimhere * (-31)
15:27:11 <esolangs> [[Drunkscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139471&oldid=127182 * Yayimhere * (-1891) nonsesical
15:28:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139472&oldid=139465 * Yayimhere * (-18) /* esolangs */
15:29:22 <esolangs> [[NO(t) MORE(than)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139473&oldid=136020 * Yayimhere * (-91) /* examples */
15:29:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139474&oldid=139466 * MihaiEso * (+216) /* Question */ new section
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15:35:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139476&oldid=139474 * PrySigneToFry * (+737)
15:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139477&oldid=139476 * MihaiEso * (+118) /* Question */
15:39:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139478&oldid=139477 * PrySigneToFry * (+748)
15:39:42 <wWwwW> i tried
15:39:45 <wWwwW> and i became tired
15:39:51 <wWwwW> but i got to do something:)
15:41:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139479&oldid=139478 * MihaiEso * (+145) /* Question */
15:43:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139480&oldid=139479 * PrySigneToFry * (+706)
15:44:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Multi-dimensional-languages]]": a) unused/unapproved category; b) there was an attempt to make it a redirect, but redirects in category space don't work properly
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16:11:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139482&oldid=137777 * PrySigneToFry * (+771) /* Examples for BubbleLang */ new section
16:11:50 <esolangs> [[2484345508]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139483 * Tommyaweosme * (+1585) Created page with "2484345508 is an esolang that is also a rickroll. == commands == Never starts line (unless its []) gonna ever + ever gonna - gonna no +- before <>.,cst xn repeats commands n times give you up > let you down < desert you . make you cry , run around c cl
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17:33:22 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139484&oldid=139481 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-119) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/139481|139481]] by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]]): It outputs "coal"; please use the talk page for questions
17:35:44 <esolangs> [[2484345508]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139485&oldid=139483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+212) Categories
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17:42:28 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139486&oldid=139438 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+272) Categories
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18:02:25 <esolangs> [[13ial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139487&oldid=139392 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) Stub, categories
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20:12:38 <esolangs> [[13ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139488&oldid=139487 * Ractangle * (+123)
20:12:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[13ial]] to [[8ial]]
20:15:35 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139491&oldid=139489 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Syntax */
20:16:18 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139492&oldid=139491 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Syntax */
20:17:49 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139493&oldid=139492 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Syntax */
20:19:23 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139494&oldid=139493 * Ractangle * (+67) /* Syntax */
20:19:41 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139495&oldid=137828 * Squidmanescape * (+154) /* I Don't Know How to Implement Them */
20:20:33 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139496&oldid=139494 * Ractangle * (+37) /* Syntax */
21:08:01 <esolangs> [[Pathana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139497 * Squidmanescape * (+1738) Created page with "Pathana is a programming language which is based on [[Malbolge]]. == Name == In the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Hinduism)#Number_and_names Manu Smriti], there are 21 levels of hell mentioned, the 17th of which is called Pathana. This name is a referen
21:10:57 <esolangs> [[8ial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139498&oldid=139496 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) Categories
21:32:49 <esolangs> [[StatiC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139499&oldid=139094 * Squidmanescape * (+31)
21:33:07 <esolangs> [[Pathana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139500&oldid=139497 * Squidmanescape * (+27)
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22:08:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zecav * New user account
22:20:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139501&oldid=139166 * Zecav * (+294) /* Introductions */
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23:42:28 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139502&oldid=139453 * PrySigneToFry * (+131)
23:48:20 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139503 * PrySigneToFry * (+957) I might I need to re-create it, but I'll not to violate the rule.
23:50:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139504&oldid=139480 * PrySigneToFry * (+733)
23:51:48 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139505&oldid=139502 * PrySigneToFry * (+80)
23:53:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139506&oldid=139482 * PrySigneToFry * (+735) /* Is this appropriate? */ new section
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