00:00:02 <ais523> yes – what seems to happen in practice with editors like Microsoft Word is that it guesses a paper size when you create the document, then saves it in the document
00:00:09 <ais523> but this causes problems when the guess is wrong
00:01:08 <zzo38> And, about WYSIWYG, when editing rich text, a "Reveal Codes" feature like WordPerfect will be needed.
00:02:10 <zzo38> A program that requires a paper size should be allowed to be configured anyways; but the printer driver configuration can be used if a paper size is somehow required even though it has not been configured for that file nor for that program.
00:02:44 <ais523> in my case, my computer is usually not attached to a printer
00:03:20 <ais523> if I need to print something (which is very rare) I can borrow a printer, but that's typically only after I've already written the document
00:05:03 <ais523> for what it's worth, I have also had dreams of writing my own OS, but my plans involved using an existing kernel and just replacing the userland (because it would be too difficult to rewrite all the device drivers from scratch)
00:05:29 <zzo38> Yes, although I meant the printer driver configuration, which is not the same as the printer itself (although it could be automatically configured according to the printer if you have one). (You could install a null printer driver if you need to, although in the case I described it would not be necessary if you only want to configure one specific program or file. However, it would be useful if you commonly use one paper size.)
00:07:16 <zzo38> About using existing kernels, my idea is that such a thing might be possible, at least with some kernels; it might be possible to run it inside of another operating system (I think Inferno also does), although standalone implementations would also be possible. The specification is separate from the implementation, so multiple implementations are possible. (In some cases, it might help to modify the existing kernels; I don't know, thoug
00:11:20 <zzo38> Character encoding is another thing included in the locale in some systems but that also belongs with the data being displayed. In my system, this would be handled by Common Data Format; in addition to Extended TRON Code, you can also specify arbitrary 8-bit character sets.
00:12:09 <zzo38> The keyboard manager also allows selecting a 8-bit character set (this is done by the application program) in "short character mode", and then if the user has a keyboard layout installed for that character set then it can be automatically selected. (For example, this ability might be useful for APL programming, maybe)
00:19:02 <zzo38> For telephone number formats, you can use international telephone numbers for better i18n; if the country code is known to not display it in some cases if desired, that could be a display setting for locales possibly, although you might want to deliberately display it anyways. For dialing telephone numbers, that can be the telephone modem configuration perhaps, that it knows to include or exclude country codes.
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01:32:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139846&oldid=139843 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+301) /* Comparison operators */ Reply
01:36:46 <esolangs> [[Geography table]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139847&oldid=139842 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) Stub, categories
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02:41:16 <Sgeo> Do... amplifiers usually require two inputs?
02:41:42 <Sgeo> Thinking of how students at MIT hooked up 4 lights on the PDP-1 to two amplifiers? speakers?
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02:45:46 <Sgeo> SIMH's help has a slightly misleading description
02:46:02 <Sgeo> "The paper tape reader supports the BOOT command. BOOT PTR copies the RIM loader into memory and starts it running."
02:46:26 <Sgeo> PDP-1 does not have a RIM loader program in memory, as I understand it
02:46:38 <Sgeo> (Or, a RIM loader toggled into memory I mean)
02:47:37 <Sgeo> And indeed, PDP-8 SIMH BOOT PTR copies a program into memory, and PDP-1 SIMH does not.
02:49:07 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8#/media/File:PDP-8_I_Bedienfeld_(simuliert).png it's great that PDP-8 "ROM" is human entered/loaded rom
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03:54:05 <esolangs> [[User:^-^]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139848 * ^-^ * (+0) Created blank page
05:15:15 <esolangs> [[Category theory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139849&oldid=139709 * Corbin * (+454) Rewrite the opening.
05:26:35 <esolangs> [[Category theory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139850&oldid=139849 * Corbin * (+896) Add a section on codensity monads.
05:27:13 <korvo> I still dislike the intro section, but I don't want to just stomp it, especially since I can't really replace it with much other than the standard formal definitions.
05:27:29 <korvo> Maybe I should add more "a category can be thought of as" examples.
05:29:55 <zzo38> Another thing I would say about category theory would be that a category is like a monoid but that the composition has to match, like the number of rows has to match the number of columns of the other matrix.
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05:30:35 <zzo38> (A monoid is effectively the case that all of them match.)
05:31:12 <korvo> Yep, categories are generalized monoids. This is one of the edge cases of a process called -oidification.
05:32:18 <korvo> Like, a group is merely a group object in Set, the category of sets. (A group object has all endomorphisms invertible; you can always undo an action.) A groupoid is a handful of group objects.
05:32:55 <korvo> A category is like a monoidoid, if they could exist. Like you say, the composition has to be well-typed.
05:34:38 <korvo> Another useful perspective: category theory is like categorified set theory. A set is merely a 0-category. Any set-theoretic construction can be redone in category theory without losing any information or flexibility.
05:35:30 <zzo38> At least, to me, it makes more sense to consider like monoids but they can match like that, rather than the usual way of considering category theory, although that works too of course.
05:37:57 <zzo38> (Also, to me, matrix multiplication seems the most obvious example, considering the definition of a category)
05:39:11 <korvo> Yeah, the category Mat is nice. Its objects are literally just natural numbers. (It's technically Mat_k over some semiring k, which is less nice.)
05:39:42 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139851&oldid=139831 * Yayimhere * (-11) even theough now i cant remember stuff 'bout it i did make it i just made ai make an interpreter
05:39:58 <korvo> And of course there's not-quite-category theory to consider. The most important case for us is probably dagger-category theory, which covers reversible/invertible transformations.
05:40:35 <korvo> Historically that's meant quantum mechanics and other physics, but lately it's also used for relational logic. The category Rel of sets and relations is naturally a dagger-category, for example.
05:44:40 <zzo38> Also, I think categories can be addition, multiplication, expoentiation, where the finite discrete categories are effectively as good as natural numbers with these operations.
06:01:17 <korvo> Yeah. And that can get really complex, as with PROPs. Terrible name for a cool idea.
06:12:51 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139852&oldid=139654 * Ractangle * (-22) /* Other things */
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08:32:22 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139853&oldid=139778 * Ractangle * (+10) /* esolangs */
08:49:14 <esolangs> [[Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139854&oldid=139797 * Salpynx * (+4) /* Implementations */ self-link for clarity
09:14:24 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139855&oldid=139697 * DifferentDance8 * (+21)
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09:22:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139856&oldid=139852 * Ractangle * (-191)
09:25:54 <esolangs> [[Bfcompress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139857&oldid=118925 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Examples */
09:33:21 <esolangs> [[Ars]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139858&oldid=107076 * Ractangle * (+24) /* See Also */
09:44:27 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139859&oldid=138786 * Ractangle * (-2) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
09:45:07 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139860&oldid=139408 * Ractangle * (-4) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
09:45:50 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139861&oldid=138763 * Ractangle * (-24) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
09:47:15 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139862&oldid=139730 * Ractangle * (+28) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
09:55:10 <esolangs> [[ComThon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139863 * Ractangle * (+90) Created page with "{{stub}} '''ComThon''' is an esolang that compiles to python created by [[User:Ractangle]]"
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11:03:53 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139864&oldid=139770 * Faustify * (+13) Stacatto correction
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11:34:50 <esolangs> [[Braindrunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139865&oldid=125376 * None1 * (+1394) /* Experiments */
11:36:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139866&oldid=121863 * None1 * (+290) /* 200x boost! */
11:36:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139867&oldid=139866 * None1 * (+232) /* Never gonna give you up */
11:36:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139868&oldid=139867 * None1 * (+1)
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11:40:56 <esolangs> [[File talk:Something that managed to create this language.jpg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139869 * None1 * (+272) Created page with "I don't think this is public domain. --~~~~"
11:50:12 <esolangs> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139870&oldid=94065 * Ractangle * (+24) /* References */
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12:13:30 <esolangs> [[User:NameGoesThere]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139871&oldid=119892 * NameGoesThere * (-40)
12:25:47 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139872&oldid=135954 * Gilbert189 * (+85)
12:26:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139873&oldid=137307 * Yayimhere * (+120)
12:31:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139874&oldid=139873 * Gilbert189 * (+150)
12:32:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139875&oldid=139874 * Yayimhere * (+171)
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12:48:55 <esolangs> [[Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139876&oldid=66473 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
12:52:39 <esolangs> [[Classical CT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139877&oldid=71211 * Ractangle * (+24) /* String extensions */
12:55:45 <esolangs> [[EsoML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139878&oldid=135946 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreter */
12:56:59 <esolangs> [[ESON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139879&oldid=69913 * Ractangle * (+24) /* See also */
12:58:45 <esolangs> [[Cheat (Gilbert189)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139880&oldid=132584 * Yayimhere * (-49) replace with {{Distinguish/Confusion}} template
13:16:05 <esolangs> [[User:Pro465]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139881&oldid=134418 * Pro465 * (+0)
13:46:05 <esolangs> [[Basic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139882 * MihaiEso * (+2351) Created page with "'''Basic''' is a pseudonatural esolang by Mihai Popa. It transpiles to [[BASIC]]! All commands must start with "This program", like "This program prints". Some words are exceptions. == Commands and words == {| class="wikitable" |+ Basic command list |- ! Basic !! BASI
13:46:57 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139883&oldid=139346 * MihaiEso * (+46) /* List of my esolangs */
13:47:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139884&oldid=139694 * MihaiEso * (+12) /* B */
13:49:58 <esolangs> [[Bfcompress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139885&oldid=139857 * MihaiEso * (-1)
13:50:27 <esolangs> [[Translated Befunge/Horribly translated page]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139886 * None1 * (+789) Created page with ":''This is page is horribly translated from [[Translated Befunge]]'' Be von is a session created by no user. Worst dubai and Microsoft translation (but you can choose worst!) There is a big difference between the treatment of refugees an
13:51:29 <esolangs> [[Translated Befunge/Horribly translated page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139887&oldid=139886 * None1 * (+7)
13:51:34 <esolangs> [[MESON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139888&oldid=69914 * Ractangle * (+25) /* Commands */
13:59:55 <esolangs> [[Gulp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139889&oldid=65376 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External Resources */
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14:03:44 <esolangs> [[Braindrunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139890&oldid=139865 * None1 * (+41943)
14:03:48 <esolangs> [[Batch No For]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139891&oldid=100518 * Ractangle * (+23)
14:03:58 <esolangs> [[Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139892&oldid=139890 * None1 * (+1) /* FizzBuzz]= */
14:03:59 <esolangs> [[Translated Befunge/Horribly translated page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139893&oldid=139887 * MihaiEso * (-3) Grammar.
14:05:58 <esolangs> [[Translated Befunge/Horribly translated page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139894&oldid=139893 * None1 * (+0)
14:15:34 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139895&oldid=139510 * Yayimhere * (+87) /* Turing-completeness */
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15:13:39 <esolangs> [[Mov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139896&oldid=91452 * Ractangle * (+23)
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15:43:00 <esolangs> [[Swearjure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139897&oldid=97037 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External Links */
15:44:07 <esolangs> [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139898&oldid=72564 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Example Implementation */
15:46:28 <esolangs> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139899&oldid=63397 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Adar-= */
16:08:25 <esolangs> [[TrybblePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139900&oldid=40610 * Ractangle * (+23)
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17:19:39 <esolangs> [[Banana Scheme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139901&oldid=88224 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
17:20:22 <esolangs> [[Binary Forthleq Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139902&oldid=128463 * Ractangle * (+23)
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18:29:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139903&oldid=34168 * Value1 * (+176) Question
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19:45:19 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I have also had dreams of writing my own OS," => is that still the mobile phone one, or does this one target other computers too?
19:49:08 <HackEso> A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes.
19:49:09 <HackEso> A monoid is the easy version of a category.
20:03:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WikiRasp * New user account
20:10:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139904&oldid=139772 * WikiRasp * (+277) /* Introductions */
20:18:27 <esolangs> [[Prolix 1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139905&oldid=121493 * Ractangle * (+9)
20:23:47 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139906&oldid=139862 * WikiRasp * (+446) Added truth-machine implementation for C#. Very rudimentary I know.
20:26:05 <esolangs> [[Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139907&oldid=56439 * Ractangle * (+23)
20:28:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[?++]] to [[User:Ractangle/?++]]
20:29:31 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/?++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139910&oldid=139908 * Ractangle * (-69) Ill try to come up with a concept for this language
20:34:34 <esolangs> [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139911&oldid=116266 * Ractangle * (+36)
20:35:04 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139912&oldid=139564 * Ractangle * (+10)
20:35:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Uwusny * New user account
20:36:08 <esolangs> [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139913&oldid=75824 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
20:40:25 <esolangs> [[BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139914&oldid=128710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Distinguish confusion
20:43:16 <esolangs> [[Swearjure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139915&oldid=139897 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Categories
20:44:49 <esolangs> [[EmojiGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139916&oldid=129834 * Ractangle * (+23)
20:46:35 <esolangs> [[FlogScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139917&oldid=127707 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
20:46:43 <esolangs> [[ComThon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139918&oldid=139863 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categories
20:49:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Textual subleq]] to [[Textual SUBLEQ]]: Fix capitalisation
20:53:48 <esolangs> [[Haifuckqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139921&oldid=88058 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External Resources */
20:55:46 <esolangs> [[Self]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139922&oldid=139607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) List
20:57:29 <esolangs> [[Self 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139923&oldid=139610 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+228) See also, categories
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20:58:27 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't remember having planned a mobile phone OS, specifically
20:58:38 <ais523> so you might be thinking of something else
20:58:57 <esolangs> [[Try]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139924&oldid=138292 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Stub, formatting, category
20:59:15 <ais523> that said, I think current mobile phone OSes are better-designed from a security point of view than current desktop OSes, although they nonetheless still have a lot of issues
20:59:24 <ais523> (by OS here I am including userland, not just the kernel)
21:00:29 <esolangs> [[Self but with loops]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139925&oldid=139611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+202) See also, categories
21:01:37 <esolangs> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139926&oldid=81061 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
21:01:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Something that managed to create this language.jpg]]": Copyright violation: not created by the uploader, and the source is likely to be copyrighted
21:03:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Logo Turmin.png]]": Duplicated file: lower-resolution copy of [[File:Turmin Logo.png]]
21:17:13 <int-e> ais523 the CC0 enforcer
21:18:48 <b_jonas> you don't remember having planned a mobile phone OS? I'll have to search the old channel logs for that then
21:19:20 <b_jonas> "they nonetheless still have a lot of issues" => http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2024-08-31.2802.smartphones-vs-pc.html agrees
21:23:55 <b_jonas> yeah, apparently you said that you weren't planning to make one https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2018-09.html#lfLb
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22:41:42 <zzo38> The document is French, so I will not make a criticism of it, but about mobile phone OS, I did not have an intention to do it; my ideas are intended for a desktop or laptop computer, although they could be used for smartphones etc also
22:42:54 <zzo38> I think there are problems with security with mobile phones as well as with desktop, as well as other stuff, but that a better design would consider multiple issues and would be able to improve multiple issues.
22:44:27 <zzo38> In addition to security, another issue is better user control and user programmability. And then, there is also such things as accessibility, internationalization, etc.
22:45:43 <zzo38> Also hardware design; although implementations could be made to use with existing hardware, there are some better ways to do some of it, including the devices such as keyboard, etc.
22:46:22 <zzo38> Like Apple keyboard, I would have a separate Return and Enter key, and a separate Command and Control key.
23:46:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139927&oldid=135307 * Tommyaweosme * (+251)
23:48:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Tommyaweosme * moved [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] to [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/september 1 to 19]]: archive #idk
23:48:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139930&oldid=137646 * Tommyaweosme * (+24)
23:48:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139931&oldid=139929 * Tommyaweosme * (-41) Removed redirect to [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/september 1 to 19]]