00:18:23 <esolangs> [[UserScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143382&oldid=68269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Categories
00:24:02 <ais523> I just came across this BF Joust match, which is a thing of beauty (view on tape length 17, normal polarity): http://zem.fi/bfjoust/game/#joust,Lymia.nyuroki2,quintopia.space_elevator,12b39bb
00:24:42 <ais523> does zem.fi's BF Joust viewer let you permalink to a particular tape length and polarity? I tried to figure it out from the source code but wasn't successful, it looks like there's some leftover code which might or might not be possible to trigger
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00:55:32 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143383&oldid=143224 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31)
01:04:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143384&oldid=136839 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+306)
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01:43:02 <salpynx> !ztest idk-9 >>>--...++<<.-++[(-+)*3.[+](-)*19][-]<++[+][-]
01:43:03 <zemhill> salpynx.idk-9: points -9.00, score 6.80, rank 47/47
01:48:19 <salpynx> i don't get how the 'points' and 'score' relate to the rankings at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/scores/ -- I was trying to maximise points, and get more than some of the lowest entries, but 'score' is not listed on the page...
01:48:33 <salpynx> ... unless score = Markov?
01:49:04 <salpynx> !zjoust idk-9 >>>--...++<<.-++[(-+)*3.[+](-)*19][-]<++[+][-]
01:49:05 <zemhill> salpynx.idk-9: points -9.00, score 6.80, rank 47/47
01:50:34 <salpynx> confirmed, score is labelled as 'Markov' on the leaderboard.
01:58:49 <salpynx> Where is the current points system explained? Talk:BF_Joust has discussion about multiple alternate points systems. It seems like the Markov score is the value that counts.
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02:25:50 <fizzie> Yes, 'score' in that is referring to Markov, because it's "the" scoring algorithm for that particular hill.
02:27:03 <fizzie> Points should be the p_a value from http://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/ if it's working as intended.
02:27:25 <fizzie> (And score the s_a value for "Markov scoring".)
02:28:25 <fizzie> In retrospect, "internals" is a pretty bad title for that page... but "scores" was already taken for the score table.
02:34:23 <salpynx> Thank you, those are the details and definitions I was looking for
02:40:37 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, I don't think that particular functionality works. It's basically the old EgoJSout viewer with minimal patches to make it fetch the zem.fi hill programs. The "old egojsout autorun" expects the program text to be in the URL query parameters, and anyway I could not get it to work out right.
02:41:09 <fizzie> For the "native" permalinks, those are using window.location rather than window.query, and parse a Git-based reference to a program.
02:43:42 <fizzie> I guess it shouldn't be particularly hard to add an optional thing to it that, when present, causes it to auto-trigger the full run and then open a particular tape-polarity setting. But it's not there right now.
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04:14:54 <salpynx> !ztest synanceia >(-)*10<...+[[+.-]]
04:14:55 <zemhill> salpynx.synanceia: points -6.98, score 13.21, rank 45/47
04:15:35 <salpynx> !zjoust synanceia >(-)*10<...+[[+.-]]
04:15:36 <zemhill> salpynx.synanceia: points -6.98, score 13.21, rank 45/47
04:18:57 <salpynx> ais523.stealth2 is now "13.37", which was a stretch goal of my entry, but couldn't make the last 0.16
04:47:35 <b_jonas> "normal polarity" => I have the feeling that while it's well-known that the polarities are called "sieve" and "kettle', almost nobody knows which one is which, because that's not documented on the wiki. (I don't know either.)
05:10:35 <ais523> sieve is the one where the programs are left at their normla polarity, but I don't really like the terminology – it doesn't make any sense and was probably created as a joke
05:13:52 <ais523> I think it may originally have been a forced meme? and those have a tendency to not be funny
05:17:09 <salpynx> !ztest 1337 ...>(+--)*13(-+-)*37<-[[-.+]]
05:17:09 <zemhill> salpynx.1337: points -6.38, score 13.37, rank 45/47
05:17:39 <salpynx> !zjoust 1337 ...>(+--)*13(-+-)*37<-[[-.+]]
05:17:39 <zemhill> salpynx.1337: points -6.38, score 13.37, rank 45/47
05:22:00 <ais523> (-.+.)*-1 (which is effectively what your code does – the loop only breaks if the flag is zero for two cycles, and at that point you lose anyway) is a bit strange as a shudder algorithm, It can occasionally lock clear loops but seems much less likely to do that than the alternatives, and it can't vibrate because it can't safely use 0 as a value it changes the flag to
05:24:36 <ais523> on a side note, a fun fact: ash is intentionally designed to not special-case against any program; an earlier version happened to hit a really fortuitous timing matchup against nyuroki2 and beat it, and I intentionally changed it to be something that would work better against general programs but worse against nyuroki2, and that's the reason it loses to it rather than beats it
05:26:05 <ais523> (this is partly because I was wondering whether Sookie – which appears to have been generated by a computer search – could work despite the apparent overfitting)
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05:32:11 <salpynx> I hadn't read up on strategies, but I was trying for a chameleon-like "Vibrator" strategy, to be as minimal as possible and avoid detection to let the opponent not detect me. Most of the changes I made to the code seemed to having timing sync / effects.
05:34:37 <ais523> try (++--)*-1 as the final loop rather than [[-.+]] – it's effectively the same idea but works on twice as many relative timings and doesn't lose on a zeroed flag
05:35:22 <ais523> it is almost always wrong to test your own flag for zeroness – if the test determines it was zero, then you spent the cycle not changing it away from zero and have probably lost
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05:40:50 <salpynx> Yes, that makes sense... there should be a way to optimise that. thx, I'll try your suggestion, is that effectively an unconditional loop?
05:57:43 <HackEso> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
05:57:49 <shachaf> I've forgotten how to search wisdom, I guess.
05:58:07 <wWwwW> i got an horrible terrible eoslang idea
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06:04:58 <wWwwW> an esolang where you can redefine the numbers in this:
06:11:05 <wWwwW> uid=501(gilbert) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff),12(everyone),61(localaccounts),79(_appserverusr),80(admin),81(_appserveradm),98(_lpadmin),701(com.apple.sharepoint.group.1),33(_appstore),100(_lpoperator),204(_developer),250(_analyticsusers),395(com.apple.access_ftp),398(com.apple.access_screensharing),399(com.apple.access_ssh)
06:13:46 <wWwwW> like on high serria 10.13.6
06:13:51 <wWwwW> and like it runs something
06:13:58 <wWwwW> and it extracts all information generated
06:20:29 <wWwwW> like it runs command /bin/bash -c "$(curl -fsSL https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Homebrew/install/HEAD/install.sh)"
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08:05:16 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I've forgotten how to search wisdom, I guess. / <wWwwW> uid=501(gilbert) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff),12(everyone),61(localaccounts),79(_appserverusr),80(admin),81(_appserveradm)" => hehe, that's a brilliant misleading hint. actually `w does NOT search in wisdom, it only retrieves the wisdom entry by key, while `' searches
08:05:46 <b_jonas> (yes, I know that's the output of id, not w)
08:06:16 <b_jonas> wWwwW: you should be, because that's probably unintentionally humorous
08:06:36 <b_jonas> basically HackEso commands override a few well-known unix commands, such as paste, w, whoami
08:07:05 <b_jonas> with unrelated commands I mean
08:07:17 <b_jonas> (ls and sed are overrided with related but worse commands)
08:08:49 <b_jonas> oh yeah, ping is shadowed by something unrelated too
08:09:40 <b_jonas> paste is the one that bothers me because the other shadowed ones wouldn't be too useful on HackEso
08:10:12 <b_jonas> btw fizzie the HackEso web interfaces are giving an 502 error again
08:13:08 <wWwwW> should i make the esolang?
08:13:38 <b_jonas> ``` cd /hackenv/bin; for f in *; do type -ap "$f" | grep -qv "^/hackenv/" && echo "$f"; done
08:13:49 <wWwwW> and if i do what should i name it?
08:14:02 <HackEso> cc \ dc \ edit \ guile \ hd \ js \ ls \ man \ paste \ sed \ test \ uptime \ w \ wget \ whatis \ whoami
08:20:59 <esolangs> [[Emit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143385 * Iddi01 * (+4225) I did it (lots of categories in a single language) in an honest way, unlike [[Categorial]]
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08:29:32 <esolangs> [[Emit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143386&oldid=143385 * Iddi01 * (+23) /* The real impressive part */ I just knew i will forget something
08:36:13 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143387&oldid=143282 * MihaiEso * (+31)
08:40:29 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143388&oldid=142728 * Iddi01 * (+40) [[emit]]; added implementation notice
08:51:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143389&oldid=143097 * Iddi01 * (+11) /* E */ [[emit]]
09:02:32 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again10]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143390 * MihaiEso * (+2323) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again13|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Wrong MS-DOS version, j7`fvG#}oc?cQ\p]/={7`8n)N`FO,CA{?miM"jw</span>]] 1. Take this crappy and shit program that is uG6@.j 2M=lDbA=xoOMOx[Z <pre> Do you mind, Carlsbe..."
09:04:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143391&oldid=143287 * MihaiEso * (+67) /* Horribly translated variants */
09:11:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143392&oldid=142799 * Iddi01 * (+621) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ I know how to fix it
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09:42:26 <fizzie> Let's see, it's complaining about the /var/run vs. /run thing in the journal for the socket activation thing.
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09:53:26 <fizzie> Okay, now the socket activation thing got it started, hopefully this time it stays up too.
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10:25:03 <esolangs> [[Ironlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143393&oldid=138773 * Froginstarch * (+25)
10:27:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Froginstarch * moved [[Ironlang]] to [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]]: Rename
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11:09:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143396&oldid=140220 * None1 * (+404) /* Help me interpret this */
11:10:53 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143397&oldid=143394 * Froginstarch * (-1076) /* Instructions */
11:38:40 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143398&oldid=143397 * Froginstarch * (-13)
11:39:04 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143399&oldid=143398 * Froginstarch * (+2)
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11:39:24 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143400&oldid=143399 * Froginstarch * (+13)
11:42:12 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143401&oldid=143400 * Froginstarch * (-3) /* Instructions */
11:48:15 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143402&oldid=143401 * Froginstarch * (-6) /* Instructions */
11:57:23 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143403&oldid=143402 * Froginstarch * (+50) /* Instructions */
11:59:08 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143404&oldid=143403 * Froginstarch * (+83) /* Instructions */
12:00:38 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143405&oldid=143404 * Froginstarch * (+69)
12:02:25 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143406&oldid=143405 * Froginstarch * (+41)
12:03:00 <esolangs> [[Translated FLOLCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143407 * MihaiEso * (+1226) Created page with "'''Translated FLOLCODE''' is [[FLOLCODE]] but horribly translated with the weirdest language Baidu can translate. 1. Take this example: <pre> HI, VERSION 1.3 COMMENT since FLOLCODE doesn't have input, we just use this variable as input I HAVE A input IT'S
12:03:29 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143408&oldid=143406 * Froginstarch * (+30)
12:03:33 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143409&oldid=143391 * MihaiEso * (+72) /* Horribly translated variants */
12:06:20 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143410&oldid=143408 * Froginstarch * (+64)
12:07:09 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143411&oldid=143410 * Froginstarch * (+21) /* Hello, world! */
12:07:24 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143412&oldid=143411 * Froginstarch * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
12:07:41 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143413&oldid=143412 * Froginstarch * (+13) /* Hello, world! */
12:09:48 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143414&oldid=143413 * Froginstarch * (+49) /* Instructions */
12:10:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Froginstarch * moved [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] to [[SML]]: Another rename
12:10:54 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143417&oldid=143415 * MihaiEso * (+12) /* Instructions */
12:18:30 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143418&oldid=143417 * Froginstarch * (+30)
12:36:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143419&oldid=143396 * None1 * (+50) /* Help me interpret this */ add unsigned template, time adjusted from CST to UTC
12:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143420&oldid=143419 * None1 * (+0) /* Help me interpret this */ OMG, 17-8=11? I'm bad at arithmetic!
12:38:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143421&oldid=143420 * None1 * (+24) /* Help me interpret this */
12:39:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143422&oldid=143421 * None1 * (+1) /* Help me interpret this */
12:40:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143423&oldid=143117 * None1 * (+249) /* A shorter Quine program code in */
12:48:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143424&oldid=143423 * None1 * (-31645) Archive the talk page, about 80000 bytes before archiving
12:50:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143425 * None1 * (+31644) Archive talk page
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12:54:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143426&oldid=143425 * None1 * (+101)
12:59:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143427&oldid=143424 * None1 * (+461) /* Timezone */
13:01:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143428&oldid=143427 * None1 * (+55) /* Timezone */
13:03:27 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143429 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+132) Created page with "Hi I am RaiseAfloppaFan3925, I am a hobbyist programmer and I like esoteric languages. anyways how do i make a page for an esolang?"
13:08:58 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143430&oldid=143429 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+154)
13:14:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143431&oldid=143428 * None1 * (+106) /* Timezone */
13:19:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143432&oldid=143431 * None1 * (-40556) Archive talk page
13:20:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143433&oldid=143432 * None1 * (+40556) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/143432|143432]] by [[Special:Contributions/None1|None1]] ([[User talk:None1|talk]])
13:21:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143434&oldid=143433 * None1 * (-29036) /* Can brainfuck output the Chinese Character? */ Archive talk page
13:31:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143435&oldid=143434 * None1 * (+29036) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/143434|143434]] by [[Special:Contributions/None1|None1]] ([[User talk:None1|talk]]) Exceeds my mobile phone's fking copying character count limit, archiving little by little then
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13:31:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143436&oldid=143435 * None1 * (-8781) /* Can brainfuck output the Chinese Character? */
13:32:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143437 * None1 * (+8781) Created page with "== Can brainfuck output the Chinese Character? == Will this script work? <pre> ++++++++[>++++>++++++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++++<<<<<-]> >>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
13:32:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143438&oldid=143249 * MihaiEso * (+527)
13:33:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143439&oldid=143437 * MihaiEso * (+7)
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13:33:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143440&oldid=143436 * None1 * (-20255) Archive
13:35:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143441&oldid=143439 * None1 * (+20247) Archive finished
13:37:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143442&oldid=143441 * None1 * (+136)
13:41:01 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143443&oldid=143418 * Froginstarch * (+7)
13:42:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143444&oldid=143440 * None1 * (+204)
13:44:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143445&oldid=143444 * None1 * (+206) /* Archiving talk page */
13:46:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143446&oldid=143445 * None1 * (-1) /* Archiving talk page */
13:52:49 <esolangs> [[RiLOLCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143447 * PrySigneToFry * (+11274) Created page with "RiLOLCODE is designed by PSTF. It is [[LOLCODE]] but even more formal than [[FLOLCODE]] by mihai Popa. == Keywords == These are the main keywords. All LOLCODE keywords are written in uppercase. {| class="wikitable plainpres" width="80%" ! Code ! Comment |- |
13:53:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143448&oldid=142134 * None1 * (+500) /* Delete an image */ new section
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14:03:11 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again14]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143449 * PrySigneToFry * (+2253) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/Mihai Again10|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Wrong MS-DOS version, ??'?mmL?k?f`3#p(}q??I??AS?ZGA#?+5fb0.O[gX{x<L?E?3U0?(68?^?B4D).V?6f=S?`pjS???'v_7U??</span>]] 1. Take..."
14:03:40 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again10]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143450&oldid=143390 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
14:05:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143451&oldid=143409 * PrySigneToFry * (+500)
14:08:02 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143452&oldid=136738 * PrySigneToFry * (-68) Fixed interpreter
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14:19:29 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143453 * None1 * (+5626) Created page with " or LLOLCODE is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]] and inspired by [[RiLOLCODE]] which is inspired by [[FLOLCODE]] which is inspired by [[LOLCODE]], but...in Classical Chinese. == Keywords == WIP These are the main keywords. All LOLCODE keywords are written in uppercase. {
14:20:13 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143454&oldid=143453 * None1 * (-18)
14:24:14 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143455&oldid=143454 * None1 * (-81) /* Keywords */
14:27:43 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143456&oldid=143455 * None1 * (-15)
14:31:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143457&oldid=143456 * None1 * (+88) /* Keywords */
14:32:55 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143458&oldid=143457 * None1 * (+1) /* Keywords */
14:37:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143459&oldid=143181 * None1 * (+349) /* My all Esolangs are designed by ONLY myself until now. */
14:39:54 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143460&oldid=143458 * None1 * (+0)
14:41:00 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143461&oldid=143460 * None1 * (-4) /* Keywords */
14:43:37 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143462&oldid=143449 * MihaiEso * (+31)
14:45:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143463&oldid=143461 * PrySigneToFry * (-74)
14:47:01 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143464&oldid=143463 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
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14:55:18 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143465&oldid=143464 * None1 * (-3) /* Keywords */
14:56:42 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143466&oldid=143465 * None1 * (-8) /* Keywords */
14:57:26 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143467&oldid=143466 * PrySigneToFry * (+5164)
14:58:13 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again11]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143468 * MihaiEso * (+2320) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again14|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Linux system is corrupted!!p%x\lLg6OI3eL<(2?JE;~nxSWDYgw</span>]] 1. Take this already *o2[i6Y9G>YaAefD^SVzi program <pre> no Not inspecting the border, _Continuing with it
14:58:19 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143469&oldid=143467 * None1 * (+3)
14:59:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143470&oldid=143469 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
14:59:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143471&oldid=143451 * MihaiEso * (+69) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:59:22 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143472&oldid=143470 * None1 * (+1) /* Keywords */
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15:12:32 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143473&oldid=143189 * MihaiEso * (-46)
15:25:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: But `' searches quotes, not wisdom.
15:45:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143474 * Ractangle * (+306) Created page with "Simple. Just search up your esolangs name in the search bar and click the red link (or a link to a page that doesn't exist) bellow the search bar~~~"
16:06:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Help me interpret this.png]]": Copyright violation: apparently not created by the uploader, thus copyrighted by default by whoever made it
16:07:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143475&oldid=143448 * Ais523 * (+159) /* Delete an image */ deleted
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16:11:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143476&oldid=143474 * Ais523 * (+411) maybe the rules for creating an esolang page should be more obvious
16:15:14 <korvo> wWwwW: There are only three UNIX languages: shell, sed, and awk. Supposedly C is a languag too, but I'm skeptical~
16:15:37 <korvo> I suppose I'd ask why languages are supposed to be the way to get things done. Normally, to get things done, we need a *program*, not a *language*.
16:16:56 <korvo> shell is awful, but it's UNIX's way of composing multiple programs into a single pipeline-program.
16:20:39 <korvo> wWwwW: Like, check out this famous awk program: https://gist.github.com/trauber/4955706 It turns any document-oriented language into a literate-programming language.
16:20:56 <korvo> I am curious as to what it looks like in shell, but I bet it's not short.
16:34:09 <korvo> Well, first, it helps to know how awk works. awk is best when operating as a line-oriented stream editor: it edits a stream, not a document, and it edits each line individually.
16:34:38 <korvo> The entire program is two clauses. awk will evaluate both clauses for each line.
16:35:24 <korvo> My quote marks are ''. The first clause is 'if (/^```/) { i++; next }'. This says that, if a line starts with '```' then increment the variable i and go to the next line.
16:35:55 <korvo> The second clause is 'if ( i % 2 == 1) { print }'. This says that, if the variable i is odd (as opposed to even), then print the current line.
16:36:20 <korvo> So the effect is to repeatedly switch i between odd and even every time we see a '```', and to only print when we're outside of them.
16:37:38 <korvo> Good question. When we build a project, we can name all of our source files something like .ext.md instead of the original .ext, and use this script to generate .ext files for the compiler.
16:38:09 <korvo> Here's some literate [[Monte]]: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/mast/lib/egg.mt.md GitHub renders it in a reasonably pretty way, and it can be read by the Monte compiler too.
16:39:50 <korvo> wWwwW: You could also think of this awk program as like a tiny compiler. It compiles from literate Monte to Monte, or literate C to C, or etc. Sometimes folks will insist that this is a "translator" or "transpiler" instead; same thing.
16:40:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Or are you asking what literate programming is? You might not have seen it before.
16:41:03 <wWwwW> but also i was confused how it was possible
16:41:19 <wWwwW> cant you reverse the process?
16:41:28 <korvo> No worries. The idea behind literate programming is to make a book that can also be compiled and run on a computer.
16:41:52 <korvo> It was invented by a guy named Knuth who has spent his life writing that sort of book.
16:42:01 <korvo> It's not really reversible, no. The Markdown is all thrown away.
16:45:10 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe this helps give some perspective for how big/deep a language can get. For popular languages that people use at work, there are hundreds of books each explaining people's opinions on how to use the language. A language will have dialects.
16:45:24 <korvo> And even a small language might need one book just to explain what the language is and how it could be used.
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17:20:30 <zzo38> The book also has index and cross-references, so that if you read the book you can find where a name or something else is referenced and is defined. (Index entries can be generated automatically but can also be specified manually in the program, e.g. for error messages and other stuff that are not directly parts of the program code.)
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17:27:51 <korvo> zzo38: Great point. And Knuth's style of literate programming also included *tangling*, which allows a program to be defined out-of-order by reordering blocks of code and text.
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18:10:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143477&oldid=143475 * Ractangle * (+193) /* Delete an image */
18:12:03 <b_jonas> I guess only grwp searches in wisdom then?
18:18:05 <b_jonas> korvo: tangentially related, do we have any plans on how to honor the memory of Ken Iverson? the tenth anniversary of his death is coming up.
18:19:13 <b_jonas> no, I'm stupid. the *twentieth* anniversary of his death is coming up
18:19:16 <korvo> b_jonas: I'm not very plugged into the community. Maybe moonchild knows?
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19:08:07 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143478&oldid=143371 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Syntax */
19:09:13 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143479&oldid=143478 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Syntax */
19:09:23 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143480&oldid=143479 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
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19:58:35 <zzo38> I had heard of "Iverson bracket"
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20:16:05 <salpynx> ais523 (bfjoust) I can't remove the inner loop without hurting the performance against the current hill. [[-.+]] _is_ equivalent to (.[-.+])*-1 , but
20:16:58 <salpynx> delay is important. The outer loop is meant to be unconditional and endless. The inner loop apparently needs to be conditional to perform as well as it does.
20:17:14 <salpynx> mostly .-.+ , but occasionally just . (the failed test delay). It must be relying on the opponent to increment its flag at that point.
20:17:43 <salpynx> My 2 entries seem to do well because they happen to be decently competitive in the lower half of the hill, but somehow manage to _always_ win against 2nd and 3rd place (ais523_impatience and Lymia.nyuroki2), which boosts its score.
20:18:26 <salpynx> When creating it, it did feel like I was playing the current hill, rather than the game itself.
20:18:57 <salpynx> I am surprised that there aren't other defense-only strategies on the hill, which would necessarily draw with mine every time.
20:19:09 <salpynx> quintopia.space_elevator draws, but that seems to be a coinicidence, with 2 clear wins each, and the rest drawn matches.
20:22:19 <salpynx> I just confirmed my code doesn't loose against noops (had to check)
20:29:16 <salpynx> correction, mine doesn't _always_ win against 2 and 3, nyuroki2 is especially weak against mine (only wins once), _impatience wins 4, draws 4 out of 21 (polarity makes no diff)
20:32:31 <salpynx> uh, nyuroki2 only ever _draws_ against mine, once or twice, depending on the version
20:49:05 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143481&oldid=143443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Instructions */ Formatting
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21:40:57 <shachaf> b_jonas: Oh, grwp, that sounds right.
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22:02:29 <ais523> salpynx: so nyuroki2's anti-shudder code is slightly broken, which I discovered while testing ash
22:02:43 <ais523> you probably happen to have hit the exact timing at which it breaks
22:04:02 <ais523> impatience losing to it is not that surprising, it gains extra speed by assuming that the opponent is not a shudder program unless it happens to notice it adjust the cell it's clearing away from 0
22:05:40 <ais523> also, there are quite a few "primary defence" programs on the hill, but almost all of them have a timer to switch to a different strategy if the opponent seems to be doing nothing – it is a good way to improve your matchup against other primary defence programs, because if the opponents' timer expires first, they will be coming at you with the most hateful anti-defensive clear their author could imagine
22:18:19 <ais523> (where by "hateful" I mean "tuned specifically to beat a particular strategy grouping")
22:21:42 <ais523> margins3 against synanceia is a good example <http://zem.fi/bfjoust/game/#joust,ais523.margins3,salpynx.synanceia,7b4fcc2>: it spends a lot of time passively defending, and then when it realises your program is entirely passive (a little after halfway through the match), sets a size-128 decoy on every tape cell and then does a clear designed to beat defensive locks
22:29:37 <salpynx> is there a match viewer animation to see that in action, or are you describing how you know margins3 works?
22:29:47 <ais523> I linked the match viewer
22:30:08 <ais523> (but I used my knowledge of margins3 to pick the right program to show)
22:30:13 <ais523> choose any tape length other than the really short ones
22:30:23 <ais523> and you'll see it in action
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22:30:42 <ais523> I picked 23 but don't think it matters much
22:31:29 <salpynx> haha, I've been looking at those match pages a lot lately and had no idea I could click on one of the symbols to see the match!
22:31:58 <ais523> I guess the only clue is that they are blue, which is a common link color
22:32:04 <salpynx> ... the rabbit hole just got a _lot_ deeper
22:32:35 <ais523> clicking on ties is usually not recommended, today's computers can handle them just about, but it uses a lot of CPU and memory
22:33:36 <b_jonas> so how does BFJoust hill ethics work? is it fair to submit a program that you specifically tuned against the current hill members, and ais523 is trying not to do that only for an extra challenge?
22:33:48 <b_jonas> and I mean the specific programs, not just against the general strategies
22:34:43 <ais523> b_jonas: tuning specifically for the current hill is generally accepted, and fairly easy to do by accident due to overfitting during your testing
22:35:15 <ais523> but, programs that don't do it tend to survive longer, because they are more likely to work against future programs if they don't overfit to the current programs
22:36:29 <salpynx> very interesting, you can see both margin3 and synanceia using the ~10 minimum length to change their behaviour, I 'found' 10, but was aware that it's the minimum tape length. Spending more time than that before getting into the main shudder loop generally hurt the score
22:38:06 <ais523> the whole idea of margins is to win on short tapes and draw the rest, there is a lot of special-casing for short tapes and for particular short-tape lengths
22:39:00 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143482&oldid=143322 * Ais523 * (+1437) /* Defense */ mention breaking out of a passive defence if the opponent is also passive
22:40:07 <salpynx> I understand now why even though I intended a Vibrator at first, spending time zeroing my own flag wasted time better spent on setting up some kind of nearby decoy (generally a net +ve while the opponent might be traveling) The main successful tactic is its Shudder loop, presumably synanceia is as tight as it can get
22:41:29 <ais523> I am not sure anyone really understands what the best way to do decoys is – it seems to depend a lot on the other details of your program
22:42:07 <salpynx> originally I thought I could zero fast with wrapping, but it doesn't work like that (probably a good thing), there are only two states of interest, 0 and non-zero, and it takes to long to determine anything more about non-zero states
22:42:50 <ais523> well, that's the entire point of the game
22:43:16 <ais523> for impatience, I started by copying the decoy setup of monolith because their clear loops have similar goals, and only modified it slightly
22:43:18 <salpynx> experimentally I found adding something within one or two cells was likely to have a net positive effect, but travelling further always did worse (for my simple defense strategy)
22:43:45 <ais523> I have also discovered that helps
22:44:17 <ais523> I am confused the most when it comes to omnipotence, which specifically wants the opponent on its flag early, and yet setting a single small decoy helped and I am not sure why
22:44:43 <salpynx> ... I was base-lining my performance on noops and active self-destruction to get something very minimal and simple that did ok against the hill
22:46:45 <ais523> I guess omnipotence doesn't actively *need* the opponent to clear its flag
22:47:26 <ais523> so it may help against opponents that start by clearing the first nonzero cell they see, then do something else
22:52:02 <salpynx> yeah, the omnipotence vs. synanceia is weird, it alternately attacks itself, and its eventual losing seems like it could have gone either way
23:03:47 <salpynx> watching the match animations I now understand that a lot of behaviour loops are hard coded -- I was trying to figure out how nyuroki2 knew to "give up" on its unsuccessful attack... it must just repeat a hardcoded n times
23:04:24 <salpynx> I thought more complex progams might be using cells for data storgage, but that seems impossible / too risky
23:04:52 <ais523> only a very few programs do that
23:05:33 <ais523> you normally need to lock the opponent first to stop them disturbing the cells, and generally only use cells behind where you think the opponent is
23:05:49 <ais523> it's much more common to use run-length-encoded hardcoded code
23:06:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143483&oldid=143477 * None1 * (+245) /* Delete an image */
23:06:12 <ais523> if you need, say, 1000 nested loops, there's an abbreviation for that
23:06:20 <salpynx> ... which explains the new ()* notation
23:06:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143484&oldid=143483 * None1 * (+3) /* Delete an image */
23:07:34 <ais523> I have been recently considering writing a BF-Joust-like language that doesn't need the abbreviations and can use short programs, but is still limited enough to make it possible to exploit the opponent's control flow
23:07:45 <salpynx> it also explains how some things can clearly misfire if expectations are met, like probably why margins3 spends half its time attacking itself :)
23:08:39 <ais523> it isn't really attacking itself, it is trying to lock the opponent's clear loop
23:08:53 <salpynx> I remember playing core wars and IIRC that was fun because you could inject and alter the opposing players code
23:08:57 <ais523> i.e. it is assuming the opponent is attacking and trying to make it hard for them to move on to the next cell
23:11:32 <salpynx> re ethics and exploits, I notice there are 2 copies of mroman.cupnoodle on the hill, I'm sure it's not meant to be an exploit, but it takes up 2 slots on the hill. Identical variations on a winning program could fill the hill, if one were unscrupulous...
23:13:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143485&oldid=143484 * None1 * (+390) /* */
23:14:22 <salpynx> aha, "lock the opponent's clear loop" yes, that is probably a decent assumption in the game: that your opponent is at your flag trying to destroy it. I'm thinking like a plant lol
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23:17:54 <fizzie> I could probably arrange for one of the cupnoodles to go away, I don't think that was intentional, just a side effect of not being able to remove a program without being able to get a particular nickname.
23:18:22 <fizzie> (The traditional way of "removing" a program is to submit a `<`, but that requires having the same nickname.)
23:28:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * She.the.people * New user account
23:33:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143486&oldid=143376 * She.the.people * (+151) me >v<
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23:55:33 <salpynx> fizzie: I think removing one cupnoodle would be good. It's hard getting on the hill at all, freeing up a slot would help. I think there wil lalways be a bit of rotation at the lower ranks based on happening to do ok against the current hill, but ais532 is right that genuinely good strategies will rise to the top
23:56:32 <salpynx> or genuinely good players with a range of general purpose strategies will rise