00:04:01 <esolangs> [[;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143487&oldid=115952 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+24) /* Interpreter */
00:04:59 <esolangs> [[7 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143488&oldid=127004 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17) /* brainfuck */
00:27:11 <korvo> I developed the physics analogy a bit more. A jouster occupies a region of tape probabalistically. This is more like analyzing a cellular automaton than doing QM, fortunately; it's classical probability theory.
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02:41:38 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143490&oldid=143489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) Categories
02:42:28 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143491&oldid=143490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) Nowiki
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06:33:54 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143492&oldid=143491 * Ractangle * (+18) You know you if you use "Me". Then we wouldn't know who made this esolang
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07:19:16 <zemhill> fizzie.bad: points -15.33, score 8.07, rank 47/47
07:19:52 <fizzie> Okay, there's now just one cup noodle.
07:20:36 <fizzie> (Manually replaced the other copy with '<' in the repo, and then did the above just to make it recalculate the scores.)
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07:39:55 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143493&oldid=143481 * Froginstarch * (+15) /* Instructions */
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07:44:41 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143496&oldid=143495 * Froginstarch * (+67) /* Instructions */
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08:45:06 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143497&oldid=143480 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */
09:04:49 <b_jonas> perlbot zjoust bad (>)*9((+.)*280>)*28(+)*99999
09:04:51 <zemhill> web.b_jonas-bad: points -31.81, score 3.70, rank 47/47
09:04:51 <perlbot> b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-bad: points -31.81, score 3.70, rank 47/47\n"}
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09:51:19 <salpynx> !zjoust nana (-)*13>>(+)*21(>>[-[-.[(+)*21[-]>]]+>+](-)*21)*13[>[-]]
09:51:19 <zemhill> salpynx.nana: points -0.76, score 20.63, rank 20/47
09:58:53 <salpynx> huh, that beats ash, I didn't design that deliberately! It's an optimisation of web.test, mostly deliberately speeding up its decoy placing to every 2 cells, and twaeking other parameters to what performs well on the hill, and adding a final simple clearing loop to finish of any remaining flags
10:17:39 <salpynx> I'm starting to think tuning to the current hill is inevitable mainly due to the hardcoding of magic loop numbers. You can't generalise the behaviour unless you are sensing something in the environment, fixed behaviour that performs well is not a generalised sol.n, but a statistical best-fit based on the kinds of opponents you happen to encounter. There must be an evolutionary biology term for this sort of thing -- there's no ultimate perfect strategy;
10:17:39 <salpynx> it depends on the current ecosystem.
10:18:37 <salpynx> For a program with a main loop, for a given hill you can set it to a large fixed n repetition, and then lower it to find the point where the score changes to discover the maximum useful number of loops to do that well in the current hill, then try doing something else to squeeze out a better score. salpynx.nana takes what was a [] loop from web.test and for the current hill 13 repetitions gives the max score, then it tacks on another strategy (clear)
10:18:37 <salpynx> which gets some more points, presumably against just one opponent, but I don't know which one. I was optimising by simply observing point value and Markov score.
10:28:50 <salpynx> the only opponent nana draws against is web.test, its 'ancestor' web.test wins every sieve round, nana wins every kettle round. That seems odd, but there must be a good reason.
10:29:59 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143498&oldid=143472 * None1 * (-3)
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10:36:18 <wib_jonas> “<ais523> […] a BF-Joust-like language that doesn't need the abbreviations and can use short programs, but is still limited” => this made me think of the brainfuck with if-conditionals at first that someone proposed recently, then also brainfuck with arbitrary finite state control flow, which in a bfjoust variant would mean a one-tick test if
10:36:19 <wib_jonas> cell under head is nonzero with two goto destinations, as well as a zero-time unconditional goto.
10:36:50 <wib_jonas> but neither of those are suitable because they don't allow counter loops without abbreviations, so you must have been thinking of something else
10:39:10 <wib_jonas> as for the original bfjoust, I'm not sure if "abbreviations" is the right word. abbreviations expanding to a long bfjoust program might be the easiest way to define bfjoust, but the expanded program can be exponentially long, it could overflow the storage of any actual memory if fully expanded, even if you truncate parts of the program that are
10:39:11 <wib_jonas> definitely past the game time limit, so it is mandatory for a bfjoust interpreter to interpret them in some way that's more optimized than just expanding everything
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10:44:58 <wib_jonas> counter loops with large counts like (+)*118 are useful for bfjoust, so any language you design probably has to support that, unless you change bfjoust in a significant way
10:49:37 <esolangs> [[Template:Username display restrictions since when]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143499 * Iddi01 * (+22) test
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10:59:59 <esolangs> [[PythOwO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143501 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+2193) Created page with "''Note that pythOwO usually starts with a lowercase letter unless it's at the start of a sentence.'' PythOwO is a programming language with UwU syntax made by [https://github.com/virejdasani virejdasani on GitHub] after a (now archived) Reddit post was post
11:01:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143502&oldid=143476 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+147)
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11:54:21 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143504 * MihaiEso * (+1082) Created page with "'''PythBrSc''' ('''Pyth'''on with '''Br'''ackets and '''S'''emi'''c'''olons) is a esolang by Mihai Popa. After seeing that [[Python]] is a little hard to program and not being C-like enough, I made this! == Syntax == It's Python, but with brackets instead of indenta
11:55:09 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143505&oldid=142978 * MihaiEso * (+45)
11:55:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143506&oldid=143389 * MihaiEso * (+15) /* P */
12:25:11 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143507&oldid=143498 * None1 * (+85) /* Keywords */
12:26:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143508&oldid=143507 * None1 * (-8)
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13:03:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143510&oldid=143506 * None1 * (+19) /* Non-alphabetic */ Add language. Note: THIS SECTION IS UNORDERED IN UNICODE SO PLEASE SORT IT
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13:37:33 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143516 * PrySigneToFry * (+3079) Created page with "Translated ORK/Mihai Again11|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: The registry mount failed and the data is being resV$/?s?=A#m??f5?v??|$o%mW?OO?AX+Tyl pRmSy;'?.??'=y%o(gWv?XB[??q;??X{?}y/}??c@..."
13:37:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143517&oldid=143380 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+563) /* A shorter HelloWorld program in a loop, length 35 */
13:39:00 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143518&oldid=143468 * PrySigneToFry * (+671)
13:39:34 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143519&oldid=143508 * None1 * (-50)
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14:51:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143528&oldid=62189 * PrySigneToFry * (+452) /* How will Basilisk do? */ new section
14:58:28 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143529&oldid=143296 * PrySigneToFry * (+103)
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15:00:00 <wWwwW> is it possible to make this esolang?:
15:00:09 <wWwwW> so you have an bunch of ascii art the a number
15:00:38 <wWwwW> a patterm recognition program now must find the patternm in all these numbers to ascii art(with all the art in context)
15:00:46 <wWwwW> and then find the falue of one thats unspecified
15:06:58 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143531&oldid=143516 * MihaiEso * (+32)
15:24:02 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again 12]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143532 * MihaiEso * (+2654) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Esolang Wiki is far from perfectTN$Q9R7TR/cB/MRVH?%BYV]-iT}~a0^tx2& WJ 36r'AivQH!!kEJR8W*16sl+l_B[=_!&V^O%/</span>]] 1. Take this ..."
15:24:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * MihaiEso * moved [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again 12]] to [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again12]]
15:24:30 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143535&oldid=143531 * MihaiEso * (-1) /* Contrast */
15:24:59 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143536&oldid=143520 * MihaiEso * (+71) /* Horribly translated variants */
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16:50:14 <korvo> salpnyx: Surprisingly, most biologists are not aware of the idea of local minima. I think that this is because we don't teach evolution well; they think it exponentially converges towards a global minimum, reaching it in logarithmically-few (~constant) generations.
16:51:06 <korvo> When really it's more like exponentially-fast convergence towards a local minimum whose neighborhood is logarithmically-distant (~multiplier to inefficiency) from perfection.
16:51:48 <korvo> If evolution optimized those inefficiencies too fast, then we wouldn't have the nice emergent Gaussians for lifeforms, which are required in order to survive system shocks.
16:53:24 <korvo> wWwwW: Yeah, probably. I'm noticing a pattern: many of your ideas are based on declarative searches. "Declarative" means that you tell the computer what the output should look like but not how to compute it; "search" means that the computer tries many possibilities and discards those which don't work.
16:54:26 <korvo> Maybe it would be useful to learn languages that have this builtin, like Prolog (well-known) or miniKanren (simple) or Curry (Haskell-flavored), so that you can more easily try out your ideas in code.
16:57:18 <wWwwW> pattern matching is a defined algorithm
16:57:23 <wWwwW> both in text and images
16:57:39 <wWwwW> it pattern searching
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17:04:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143537&oldid=143528 * Corbin * (+659) /* Slitherfangs */ new section
17:08:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Sure, assuming we know what those things are. Like, for image pattern matching, we wouldn't want to use pixels, right?
17:09:46 <korvo> (Also, just to be explicit, I'm trying to encourage you to *read* and *write* code, since those are the two most fundamental skills for any sort of hacker to develop.)
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17:35:57 <wWwwW> text pattern thing thing ai
17:36:04 <wWwwW> then we use a fucntion fined ai
17:36:11 <wWwwW> that take sone input and returns another
17:36:24 <wWwwW> we do for the pattern to value
17:37:53 <wWwwW> i have a copde techer
17:37:59 <wWwwW> ill learn minikanren
17:40:14 <wWwwW> how i would like it to want
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18:11:38 <korvo> wWwwW: Don't worry about AI or machine learning for now. They aren't going to be helpful to your intuition about how computers work.
18:12:38 <korvo> No, learned functions usually don't work; they're *heuristics*, not specified functionality.
18:13:22 <korvo> The best way to think about AI is that it is "probably approximately correct", or PAC. You can search for "PAC learning" if you want to dig into the maths, although you probably need some linear algebra first.
18:13:56 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143538&oldid=143504 * Ractangle * (+9)
18:13:56 <wWwwW> as long as it "works#
18:14:12 <korvo> Well, it *doesn't* work. PAC is a *limitation* on what can be learned.
18:14:17 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143539&oldid=143538 * Ractangle * (+4)
18:15:11 <korvo> Also, learning only is possible when there is input data to learn from. We don't know what ChatGPT was trained upon, so it's not reasonable to specify your esolang via ChatGPT.
18:15:51 <wWwwW> i gut a funkin weird idea
18:15:56 <wWwwW> for how this could work
18:16:01 <wWwwW> simpler version tho
18:16:14 <wWwwW> if you account everyspace as empty asn deveryyihng else as not then use A* on it
18:16:41 <wWwwW> another idea rated impossible
18:16:58 <korvo> Sure, some spaces can be searched. But you have to define the space carefully. Usually we want to exploit the toplogy of the space somehow.
18:17:18 <korvo> The key phrase for that is "searchable set". The maths is going to be tough, though.
18:18:10 <APic> Ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu-
18:20:12 <wWwwW> i have no dieas and i have nothing to do
18:31:17 <korvo> wWwwW: You could read or write code.
18:31:45 <wWwwW> ill just try to write some shit in haskell to learn it
18:34:20 <korvo> If you're out of class, you could read up on MENACE, a toy machine-learning system. MENACE learns how to play noughts-and-crosses/tic-tac-toe perfectly! But sometimes it fails to learn.
18:34:54 <wWwwW> i would rather write haskell rn idk
18:35:01 <wWwwW> ill check menace later
18:35:03 <korvo> Matt Parker has a great video demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c-_neaxeU and an older set is documented here https://www.mscroggs.co.uk/blog/19
18:35:19 <korvo> No worries. Have fun.
18:38:02 <wWwwW> i would like som help(chatgpt bad for climate) so ummm. :
18:38:03 <wWwwW> Main.hs:1:1: error:
18:38:03 <wWwwW> Parse error: module header, import declaration
18:38:04 <wWwwW> or top-level declaration expected.
18:38:05 <wWwwW> 1 | print((:[]).(\x -> x.x))
18:38:05 <wWwwW> | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
18:42:00 <korvo> What are you reading to learn Haskell? I'll tell you that the given error explains exactly what went wrong.
18:42:09 <b_jonas> wWwwW: haskell is like C, it doesn't like top-level expressions, instead it runs main in its IO system
18:42:29 <wWwwW> korvo: NOTHING. idk im crazy
18:44:55 <korvo> wWwwW: "crazy" doesn't mean anything. Anyway, when I was your age, I learned languages like Perl and Java one-by-one by reading books which were intended to teach them. There are a dozen decent Haskell books; for you, maybe https://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters is a good first step.
18:45:24 <wWwwW> i dont buy books for programming
18:45:32 <wWwwW> i get fuckin stressed for some reason
18:46:10 <korvo> I'm not going to ever link you to something that you have to pay to read. LYAH ("Learn You A Haskell"), the above link, is free to read online. The author gave their permission, even!
18:46:28 <b_jonas> korvo: heh, that sounds like you're quite young
18:46:39 <int-e> trying to guess the syntax of a programming language is probably the second worst way to learn it
18:46:58 <lambdabot> http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ or the slightly updated fork https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/
18:47:00 <wWwwW> ill just as i get errors
18:47:13 <lambdabot> http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ https://github.com/tssm/up-to-date-real-world-haskell
18:47:19 <korvo> b_jonas: Rather that wWwwW is young. I have a GEB on my shelf, for example, and I think all computer scientists should have one in their native language; but it might not be in their budget, and they won't need it until undergrad.
18:48:57 <korvo> b_jonas: Other books that are expensive but I found worth the cost include the OpenGL Red Book, "Applied Cryptography" (the red one), and a few other textbooks.
18:48:57 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143540&oldid=143497 * Ractangle * (-32) /* Hello, world! */
18:49:11 <b_jonas> korvo: are there really Haskell books that old?
18:49:21 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143541&oldid=143540 * Ractangle * (-33) /* Cat program */
18:49:26 <korvo> Oh, also books like "On Numbers and Games" (ONAG) and Smullyan's puzzle books, which are small enough to take on the bus or train.
18:49:33 <int-e> (The last one is not actually recommended. I just like that it claims to be "gentle" and then assumes an undergraduate level TCS/PL background.
18:50:01 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, which one do you recommend? there's a broken reference there
18:50:38 <korvo> b_jonas: Oh, you meant the "when I was your age". I was a teen in the 90s and learned all the hip languages at the time: Java, Perl, PHP, JS, and eventually Python.
18:50:48 <int-e> b_jonas: in this context, probably lyah despite the horrendous grammar in the title
18:51:05 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143542&oldid=143541 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */
18:51:22 <int-e> but RWH may offer better motivation maybe
18:51:46 <int-e> I have not really read either of them because by the point they were written I was already fairly comfortable in Haskell
18:52:05 <korvo> RWH (and its OCaml sibling) are not very good books IMO. They want to be all "practical" and "for software engineers", which means adopting a lot of bad verbose patterns and outdated libraries.
18:52:36 <int-e> they are for different audiences
18:52:45 <korvo> LYAH is very wrong, but wWwwW will find it easier to understand. It follows the little-lie big-lie style of teaching.
18:52:47 <int-e> (all three of the above)
18:53:47 <b_jonas> korvo: Java, Perl PHP, JS, Python sound possible, it was the Haskell that surprised me
18:53:57 <korvo> wWwwW: It occurs to me that you might not know about compression yet. That could be another interesting topic for you! There are fundamental limits to compression, and compression is equivalent to whatever AI chatbots are doing, so there are fundamental limits on chatbots too.
18:53:58 <int-e> korvo: for you, the gentle introduction is probably a good fit, except it's quite ancient by now
18:54:03 * korvo little lie, big lie
18:54:43 <korvo> int-e: Yeah... I think it covers Haskell 2010, at least.
18:55:22 <b_jonas> "RWH" is a book? isn't that like a monad in the standard library?
18:55:56 <int-e> The monad (transformer) is RWS, a combination or Reader, Writer, and State
18:56:37 <korvo> But I do like the idea of Reader, Writer, and Ham.
18:58:15 <b_jonas> Ham? as in like a Bacon Lettuce Tomato monad transformer or as in ham radio?
18:58:34 <korvo> I'm mostly talking from hunger, but radio is good too.
19:00:56 <wWwwW> whats a good esolang to learn?
19:01:22 <wWwwW> ...im ignoring that
19:01:57 <int-e> you're much better off getting started in some mainstream language
19:02:13 <wWwwW> it takes less time
19:02:16 <int-e> which will a) be more useful and b) have far better resources to learn from
19:02:22 <wWwwW> when im bored in an afternoon
19:02:40 <int-e> the idea of being bored is so funny
19:07:25 <b_jonas> int-e: no it's not, but it probably depends on what kind of family you have. my grandmother can now barely leave his apartment, and she's been bored even when she could walk outdoors in good weather.
19:10:14 <int-e> b_jonas: Sure, I was thinking of younger people than that who have access to internet capable devices basically around the clock, compared to the olden days where you could actually end up stuck in a room with nothing to do that you haven't done before.
19:10:53 <wWwwW> am i the only one who just rlly wants to tie music into programming and htne just gotsooo exited when i found out sonic pi existed
19:11:15 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143543&oldid=143492 * She.the.people * (+151)
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19:36:19 <esolangs> [[Template:Snakel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143545 * Ractangle * (+176) Created page with "<div style="border: 1px solid;font-family: monospace,Courier;background-color:#000000;color:#F0F0F0> {{{1}}} </div> <noinclude>a shortcut to the Snakel command line</noinclude>"
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19:54:53 <salpynx> wWwwW: "whats a good esolang to learn?": serious (i think) ans: bf, a string re-writing lang like Thue, or Lisp. They should each give you some moderately satisfying results quickly by playing, and they should all indirectly reveal real comp-sci intuition (which applies to very many esolangs, and real-world stuff)
19:55:53 <salpynx> bf and Thue you can write using the esowiki article only, Lisp will prob require a book, but the Lisp book is nice and firendly
19:57:11 <salpynx> writing your own bf Hello World from scratch will prob put in you in the top x% of esolangers, where x is quite small
19:59:06 <salpynx> even writing some Deadfish examples, understanding the overflow through experimentation, and running it in one of the interpreters on that page is probably a non-trivial excercise and not a complete waste of time
19:59:50 <salpynx> ... then write your own interpreter in _any_ language eso or otherwise
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20:08:09 <b_jonas> salpynx: which lisp specifically
20:09:35 <korvo> I'd insist on a Scheme, and not Racket. Students need to learn about lexical scope and hygenic macros first.
20:09:59 <korvo> In this case, though, maybe Racket's an acceptable compromise, since it leads easily into making toy interpreters.
20:12:14 <b_jonas> korvo: common lisps have lexical scope too, so that doesn't really explain why scheme
20:17:00 <korvo> b_jonas: That's fair. I suppose it's only a feeling then. I also wouldn't recommend a Kernel Lisp either, even though those are also lexical and hygenic in their own way.
20:18:50 <korvo> ...I mean, that itches, but I'm not strong enough with CL to discuss it. I could point out that e.g. Python is lexically scoped, which is true, but also comes with several caveats like class scope, module scope, and lambda quirk.
20:20:10 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143558&oldid=143544 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+146) Categories
20:21:31 <sprout> python's scope rules are debatable
20:24:30 <esolangs> [[PythOwO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143559&oldid=143501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+137) Formatting, see also, categories
20:27:12 <b_jonas> I would actually recommend python3 as a beginner language these days
20:30:56 <korvo> I highly recommend Python 3 as linguafranca and for replacing pseudocode with something executable.
20:38:02 <salpynx> b_jonas: .. hmm, I'm just waking up, so the Lisp I was thinking of was "the one with the cartoons in the book"... so I actually meant Forth, sorry
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20:40:38 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143561&oldid=143174 * Ractangle * (-74) /* See also */
20:43:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143562&oldid=141847 * Ractangle * (+43)
20:43:33 <b_jonas> salpynx: wait, forth? ok, then I have to ask what modern forth interpreter you'd suggest. I don't use Forth
20:43:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143563&oldid=143562 * Ractangle * (-44) I am an absolute idiot
20:44:24 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143564&oldid=143356 * Ractangle * (+2) /* ppl i like and dont like */
20:44:35 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143565&oldid=143564 * Ractangle * (+1) /* ppl i like and dont like */
20:44:38 <salpynx> .. I think I've got myself _very_ confused... what's Forth (with DROP DUP etc) but with Lisp like syntax ... I think I'm thinking of a custom esolang
20:45:46 <b_jonas> uh... I don't see how that would work
20:46:48 <b_jonas> unless you mean something like postscript or GML, which use a forth-like data stack but have first-class functions
20:47:05 <korvo> Or possibly something like Joy, Cat, or Kitten, which have [] quotations.
20:47:06 <b_jonas> I guess you'll have to rethink this after you woke up properly
20:47:27 <korvo> I might recommend Factor. It's not technically a Forth, but it's a wonderful spiritual successor.
20:49:44 <b_jonas> anyway, as for lisps, I don't think macros are particularly important for a beginner, in fact they might be distracting from learning how functions work which is more important. purely as a language without extra libraries I prefer scheme over common lisp, but I'm not sure if my reasons for that apply if you consider it as a beginner language.
20:50:53 <salpynx> I was trying to recommend a traditional stack based language, but Forth maybe isn't the best now that I look at the book again. I remember the book being fun, but I've confused it with some simpler esolang (with lots of brackets)
20:52:28 <sprout> yes, that would be egel
20:52:34 <b_jonas> I'm not very familiar with forths, as far as I know they're low-level, and as a beginner language I'd prefer something high-level that has dynamically allocatable structures and arrays with bounds checking. python isn't perfect for this either.
20:54:06 <b_jonas> sprout: is egel even stack-based in the Forth sense?
20:54:46 <sprout> no, it has graph rewrite semantics
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21:08:08 <korvo> salpynx: The real issue that I found (and why I wrote [[Cammy]] instead of making dialects of Joy) is that Forths with quotations are 1D. They can't represent applicative trees without forcing the programmer to explicitly build each branch and check that it's got the correct arity.
21:08:23 <korvo> At some point, S-expressions or some other applicative-tree syntax are preferable.
21:10:18 <esolangs> [[Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143566&oldid=140770 * Corbin * (+944) Document closure quirk. I love the smell of redlinks in the morning.
21:10:42 <salpynx> both egel and cammy are sparking memories, I think I've imagined a single simple language based on a number of explorations with those, Scheme, Lisp, and Forth, and WIP esolang ideas that were never completed
21:14:08 <b_jonas> I'm also not quite convinced that lexical scoping (i.e. for nested functions) is so important for a beginner, but that's more plausible than macros, and so many languages support lexical scoping and the alternatives are worse so you might as well have it for almost free
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21:20:45 <salpynx> I failed at giving an example of an easy to pick up 'toy' stack-based language that you can just type stuff into a REPL and get satisfying responses immediately, I feel like I've had that experience, but there's not a single place I can point to to get started quickly, unfortunately.
21:22:40 <b_jonas> don't HP programmable calculators do that? I'm not sure, I never used one, and I don't know much about stack-based languages
21:25:27 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143567&oldid=143539 * MihaiEso * (-9) I'm a male.
21:35:06 <salpynx> korvo: "Forths with quotations" is bringing back lots of memories, I think this is something that multiple people were investigating at one point
21:42:42 <salpynx> wWwwW: write some bf programs, and try string re-wrtiting. String rewiriting is fun, you can blow up your display with lots of crazy output, and by playing with it enough you might get the Zen-like moment of understanding how it even relates at all to computation and programming, which is nice. Deadfish too can be worthwhile if you use it to understand or write interpreters, (even though it is very silly).
21:47:58 <salpynx> .. other than that, you might have to learn a non-eso language, which is not a bad thing, but likely to be a bit more involved, (the 'none' option suggested above)
21:53:11 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143568 * AndrewBayly * (+1930) Jumpy
21:56:00 <salpynx> wWwW: Try different langauges REPLs (Read, Evaluate, Print, and Loop) interfaces and you can see if any interest you. There are often online versions, https://try.scheme.org/ or Lua https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lua_terminal_online.php , no real language recommendation, just try multiple to get a feel for whats out there. Lua is used for scripting many games, incl. Roblox (I don't know what you're into, Roblox just seems likely more relevant than
21:56:00 <salpynx> Forth in almost any context...)
21:57:21 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143569&oldid=143568 * AndrewBayly * (+1) Headings
21:58:29 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143570&oldid=143569 * AndrewBayly * (+8) More Headings
21:59:40 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143571&oldid=143570 * AndrewBayly * (+1) typo
22:02:40 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143572&oldid=143551 * Ractangle * (+120) /* Examples */
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22:03:56 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143574&oldid=109444 * AndrewBayly * (+116) Added Jumpy
22:09:26 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143575&oldid=143571 * AndrewBayly * (+24) Added category
22:25:54 <salpynx> no idea if wWwwW is a log reader, but for music programming, Orca looks interesting and potentially fun: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Orca I have not used it, but I like 100rabbits. Learning Supercollider is on my todo list for a serious audio language. I have used Nyquist (XLISP) for audio, but there are probably more modern alternative.
22:26:15 <zzo38> Csound is another programming language for dealing with audio.
22:26:40 <korvo> If they were thinking of music as a communication medium, then there's a rich history there too, with Solresol as a notable example due to having a vocabulary.
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