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00:47:28 <esolangs> [[Estrita]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145798 * Aadenboy * (+5596) win
01:07:41 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145799&oldid=145335 * Aadenboy * (+90) update list
01:08:28 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145800&oldid=145799 * Aadenboy * (-63)
01:40:15 <b_jonas> https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/madvise.2.html says that madvise rounds the length up to full pages, even for MADV_DONTNEED, and that this may mean rounding up to huge pagesize if the area is backed by hugepages. does that apply to transparent hugepages, and how the heck are you supposed to handle that?
01:43:16 <b_jonas> found a relevant page: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=202089
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01:46:14 <b_jonas> I'm confused about what the semantics is supposed to be
02:07:27 <int-e> I think the kernel demotes huge pages to normal pages in that case. Note also: "MADV_DONTNEED cannot be applied to locked pages, Huge TLB pages, or VM_PFNMAP pages." -- but that shouldn't apply to the *transparent* huge pages support.
02:08:51 <int-e> I'm quite confident that rounding up to a full huge table would've broken a lot of software when THP was introduced, and we'd have heard about that.
02:10:42 <int-e> (Is that quote up-to-date? Hmm.)
02:16:24 <b_jonas> how are you supposed to remove whole huge pages if MADV_DONTNEED can't apply to them?
02:21:52 <int-e> you always have munmap
02:22:52 <b_jonas> I'd also like to know how to query for debugging where the kernel has mapped hugepages in areas with transparent hugepages enabled. mincore can tell which pages are in memory, which could help tell me how MADV_DONTNEED worked.
02:36:34 <ais523> there's a procfile that lists how many hugepages a process is using
02:56:04 <korvo> I think that the man page does a disservice by saying that the semantics are changed by MADV_DONTNEED and that the other advices are only for performance. The user shouldn't have to change how they access the advice'd page.
02:58:13 <korvo> If one really *does* want the semantics to change, it looks like the Linux-specific MADV_FREE has that behavior. I'm not gonna guess at why somebody would want that without an munmap().
02:58:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145801&oldid=144441 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+107)
02:58:54 <ais523> korvo: MADV_FREE is useful if you have an application that maps the entire address space in advance, and does mallocs simply by returning an unused address without telling the kernle
02:59:09 <ais523> this is useful to save on system calls
02:59:34 <korvo> ais523: Makes sense for sure.
02:59:34 <ais523> but it's not a very popular style of programming
03:01:17 <korvo> Is MADV_DONTNEED useful for maybe databases or game servers where data access patterns aren't sequential or random, but need to be explicitly scheduled? I'd guess that MADV_WILLNEED would be used in tandem.
03:01:56 <korvo> Maybe worth contrasting Linux man with POSIX man: https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/posix_madvise.3.html "shall not affect the semantics of access to memory"
03:08:20 <int-e> korvo: "since glibc 2.6, POSIX_MADV_DONTNEED is treated as a no-op, because the corresponding madvise(2) value, MADV_DONTNEED, has destructive semantics."
03:09:02 <korvo> int-e: Ugh. Well, at least they documented it. Thanks.
03:09:51 <int-e> There's a question how useful the POSIX version is. I guess it'll still be allowed to do something if you mmap a file read-only
03:13:33 <int-e> or you can encourage the kernel to swap the page out if there's memory pressure
03:13:36 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145802 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+1437) Created page with "{{stub}} '''RuleLoader''' is the algorithm used to simulate <code>.rule</code> files describing different types of [[CA]], also known as '''rule tables''' and '''rule trees'''. A description of the file format is provided in Golly's built-in h
03:15:57 <int-e> Hmm apparently Go switched from MADV_DONTNEED to MADV_FREE and back again. https://github.com/golang/go/commit/05e6d28849293266028c0bc9e9b0f8d0da38a2e2
03:17:09 <int-e> "jemalloc plays a game where they call MADV_FREE and then 10s later they call MADV_DONTNEED"
03:17:15 <int-e> https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/51086
03:17:45 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145803&oldid=145604 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4)
03:17:46 <int-e> I have no clue why the situation sounds messy.
03:18:34 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145804&oldid=145802 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+82)
03:19:18 <korvo> Found LWN: https://lwn.net/Articles/591214/
03:19:25 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145805&oldid=145804 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+74)
03:20:37 <esolangs> [[ALPACA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145806&oldid=68574 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+43)
03:20:56 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145807&oldid=145805 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+25)
03:23:19 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145808&oldid=145807 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+118)
03:24:05 <korvo> I wanted to see if RPython has an explanation. They have a comment here: https://github.com/pypy/pypy/blob/main/rpython/rlib/rmmap.py#L860 There are four different madvise_free() implementations; this one for Linux does MADV_FREE followed by MADV_DONTNEED.
03:25:03 <korvo> Er, if MADV_FREE fails then they try again with MADV_DONTNEED. This is how they free low-level arenas for the JIT and GC.
03:25:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Matrioshka language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145809 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+221) Created page with "Can LifeViewer be considered a "Matrioshka language"? ~~~~"
03:27:22 <korvo> Heh, "so users could the page without any corruption". They accidentally a verb.
03:27:42 <korvo> But I get it. If I accidentally the page, then no corruption please.
03:29:30 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145810&oldid=145808 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+578) /* Computational class */ new section) (----
03:37:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145811&oldid=145765 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+28) Rule table
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03:46:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145812&oldid=145811 * Aadenboy * (+14) /* E */
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04:22:51 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145813&oldid=145803 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+943)
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06:01:00 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145814&oldid=145810 * ZCX islptng * (+1697)
06:06:43 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145815&oldid=145814 * ZCX islptng * (+153)
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06:26:08 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145816&oldid=145754 * Win7HE * (-24) /* Variants of deadfish */
06:28:09 <esolangs> [[Deadshark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145817&oldid=145760 * Win7HE * (+1) /* Commands */
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06:33:16 <esolangs> [[Deadshark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145818&oldid=145817 * Win7HE * (+75) /* External Links */
06:58:52 <esolangs> [[Deadshark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145819&oldid=145818 * Win7HE * (+0) /* Commands */
07:47:17 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145820&oldid=145797 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Syntax */
07:49:33 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145821&oldid=145783 * Ractangle * (-13) /* Cat program */
07:52:03 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145822&oldid=145820 * Ractangle * (+291)
07:52:22 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145823&oldid=145822 * Ractangle * (+3)
07:52:31 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145824&oldid=145823 * Ractangle * (-13)
07:54:19 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145825&oldid=144004 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Snakel */
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08:00:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Matrioshka language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145826&oldid=145809 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+138)
08:05:05 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145827&oldid=145825 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Snakel */
08:05:20 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145828&oldid=145827 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Snakel */
08:05:40 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145829&oldid=145828 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Snakel */
08:06:02 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145830&oldid=145792 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Syntax */
08:08:10 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145831&oldid=145830 * Ractangle * (+127)
08:09:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Matrioshka language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145832&oldid=145826 * Ractangle * (+1)
08:09:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145833&oldid=145801 * Ractangle * (+6)
08:12:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145834&oldid=145833 * Ractangle * (+396)
08:12:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145835&oldid=145834 * Ractangle * (+168)
08:13:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145836&oldid=145835 * Ractangle * (+1)
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10:03:52 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145837 * Iddi01 * (+11933) I'm getting crazy with [[uniode]]
10:10:32 <esolangs> [[Uniode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145838&oldid=145479 * Iddi01 * (+679) /* */
10:24:05 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's a system call interface that lets a process that's mostly single-threaded conspire with the operating system to lie to programs like top to pretend that it's busy on all processor cores, for when the customer or PR department or whatever heard that you can make any program run 24 times as fast by using multithreading and demands that you use it, but the task isn't actually reasonably
10:24:11 <b_jonas> paralellizable. This would be especially for hyperthreading where starting dummy threads could slow down the main thread even if they don't do any memory access.
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11:09:42 <iddi01> !ztest clock >>>+<-<-(>(-)*128<+[<(-)*111(>)*9(+)*111(+.)*33(<)*9(-)*111(>)*10(+)*111(+.)*33(<)*10(---+)*-1]-)*8>+[-((-)*256<+[<(---+)*-1]->)*8(-)*96431<(+)*65(>)*9(>[(+)*111(+.)*32>])*19](+)*21<(-)*33(>)*11([(-)*106[-.][--+[--+]]>]>)*21
11:09:43 <zemhill> iddi01.clock: points 9.43, score 40.93, rank 1/47 (+3)
11:09:58 <iddi01> !zjoust clock >>>+<-<-(>(-)*128<+[<(-)*111(>)*9(+)*111(+.)*33(<)*9(-)*111(>)*10(+)*111(+.)*33(<)*10(---+)*-1]-)*8>+[-((-)*256<+[<(---+)*-1]->)*8(-)*96431<(+)*65(>)*9(>[(+)*111(+.)*32>])*19](+)*21<(-)*33(>)*11([(-)*106[-.][--+[--+]]>]>)*21
11:09:59 <zemhill> iddi01.clock: points 9.43, score 40.93, rank 1/47 (+3)
11:14:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145839&oldid=144978 * Iddi01 * (+1018) /* 2024 */ wanted to wait until 2025, but i couldn't resist
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12:21:27 <iddi01> fizzie: After looking at Core War which have multiple hills with different settings, i have an idea of a similar thing for BF joust:
12:21:28 <iddi01> Tiny hill: programs must have size lower than 100 excluding comments
12:21:28 <iddi01> Nano hill: programs must have size lower than 250, b u t abbreviations are treated as comments, so (+)*5 will mean + and so on.
12:21:29 <iddi01> Experimental hill: To allow for more complex strategies, tape size is 15-50 instead of 10-30, cells wrap at 512 instead of 256, and timeout is 250000 cycles.
12:21:29 <iddi01> 2D hill: The tape becomes a grid with the two flags at opposite corners. < and ^ move towards your flag and > and v move towards the opponent's. Grid size is 5x5 to 15x15, including non-square ones
12:21:30 <iddi01> Fork hill: Add a Y instruction that works the same as in Brainfork except both threads share the same tape, Y takes one cycle and the threads execute sequentially with the parent thread going first, each taking one cycle.
12:21:30 <iddi01> These hills would ideally also have 47 slots, but the 2D hill could have fewer slots since each two programs plays 242 matches!
12:21:31 <iddi01> See the Core War sites https://sal.discontinuity.info/index.php and http://www.koth.org/koth.html for reference.
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12:27:12 <iddi01> ^echo perlbot echo ^echo
12:27:12 <fungot> perlbot echo ^echo perlbot echo ^echo
12:27:13 <perlbot> fungot: ^echo perlbot echo ^echo
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12:49:29 <perlbot> iddi01: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [_test] [test] [tickit] [.tc] [.tg] [.tj] [.tk] [tk] [tx] [.tz]
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12:59:11 <iddi01> ^def echo_once bf ,[.,]
13:00:19 <iddi01> ^echo_once `echo perlbot echo test
13:00:19 <fungot> `echo perlbot echo test
13:03:30 <iddi01> `echo perlbot echo fungot
13:03:30 <fungot> iddi01: i've used guile ( for snd) and gambit ( with the new " agile"
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13:28:29 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145840&oldid=145486 * Yayimhere * (+65) /* syntax */
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14:27:04 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145841&oldid=145657 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* memory */
14:36:41 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145842&oldid=145841 * Yayimhere * (+213) /* commands */
14:53:20 <esolangs> [[User:Win7HE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145843&oldid=145751 * Win7HE * (+8)
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14:59:37 <wWwwW> hello? why are you "hmm"ing
15:00:43 <win7he> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-11-19.html
15:01:03 <win7he> heres the logs for today
15:10:15 <esolangs> [[Eso]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145844 * Win7HE * (+28) Created page with "i think you mean [[Esolang]]"
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16:00:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DevThatCodes * New user account
16:01:46 <wWwwW> hey korvo umm i want to disagree with you on that NSA FF discussion we had yester day
16:08:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145845&oldid=145747 * DevThatCodes * (+91) /* Introductions */
16:09:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145846&oldid=145845 * DevThatCodes * (+99) /* Introductions */
16:12:27 <esolangs> [[Zudjn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145847 * DevThatCodes * (+73) Created page with "Zudjn is a small Esolang that i have not made yet, but i am working on it"
16:24:20 <esolangs> [[Zudjn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145848&oldid=145847 * DevThatCodes * (+64)
16:30:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Malbolger * New user account
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17:15:07 <wWwwW> well im god what about you
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17:16:02 <korvo> Just woke up and watered the plants.
17:26:03 <korvo> wWwwW: So, what were your thoughts?
17:26:39 <wWwwW> i had that pointer yesterday
17:27:25 <wWwwW> first of all in the "run each possible program at the same time" has more states running then "actually do it randomly each time" has only one running
17:28:28 <wWwwW> in FF if you say "i will label each state by what pointer is running it" you are actually creating states
17:28:45 <wWwwW> the difference is the both pointers run in the same program
17:29:38 <korvo> I learned the old ways, so I only know this in terms of Mealy and Moore machines, which I constantly mix up. Nonetheless, I don't see how states are being created here.
17:29:59 <wWwwW> i dont know how to explain it otherwise
17:30:05 <wWwwW> ok heres another question
17:30:08 <korvo> FSMs don't have pointers. They have states and inputs, along with a transition function that maps a (state, input) pair to the next state.
17:30:38 <wWwwW> how i understand it theres a pointer that trantisions and points to current state
17:30:50 <korvo> Evaluating an NFA can be done by simulating multiple pointers on top of its DFA, *or* by expanding the NFA to a DFA with exponentially-many states; they're two different equivalent techniques.
17:30:51 <wWwwW> thats how FF works anyway
17:31:26 <korvo> A pointer is an implementation detail. A pointer to a state is an implementation of a state.
17:31:55 <wWwwW> but in FF you have to implement it that way otherwise it would be cheating
17:32:45 <korvo> That's pro-DRM thinking.
17:33:08 <korvo> That's the same sort of thinking that leads to people trying to control what you can run on your computer.
17:33:31 <wWwwW> well agian you dont have to but thats the way i specify it
17:35:07 <wWwwW> ok we can agree that we disagree
17:35:19 <korvo> Nah, I don't really go for that whole Discord-coded playground approach with imaginary rules and geass-like restrictions that are magically cast on people by saying the special words.
17:35:57 <korvo> Do you think that it's cheating to implement an optimized Brainfuck interpreter? A Malbolge decryptor? A C compiler which defines some of the undefined behaviors?
17:39:41 <korvo> wWwwW: Sorry, that was mean of me. I'm glad that you're discovering important concepts like FSMs, even if I'm frustrated that you aren't engaging yourself with them.
18:02:13 <esolangs> [[Eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145849&oldid=145844 * Ractangle * (-7) Redirected page to [[Esolang]]
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18:52:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eso]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145850 * Aadenboy * (+306) Created page with "is this necessary? ~~~~"
19:10:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145851&oldid=145850 * Ractangle * (+204)
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19:17:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145852&oldid=145851 * Aadenboy * (+297)
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19:53:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145853&oldid=145829 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Gammaline languages */
20:01:55 <zzo38> I do not think that it is cheating to implement a optimized brainfuck interpreter, at least in general. (This is not a requirement to implement a optimized brainfuck interpreter, though.)
20:10:18 <korvo> Sure. I was too rhetorical. I didn't have a good reaction to "you have to implement it that way otherwise it would be cheating". When it comes from a teenager, it's cute and naive, but in the USA it usually comes from preachers and legislators.
20:46:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maza * New user account
20:55:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145854&oldid=145846 * Maza * (+168)
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21:38:42 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145855&oldid=145837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-194) Categories
21:41:54 <esolangs> [[Manuever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145856&oldid=145684 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) Categories
21:42:57 <esolangs> [[g]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145857&oldid=145694 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) Categories
21:44:31 <esolangs> [[AnnoyingScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145858&oldid=145728 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) Categories
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21:47:16 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145859&oldid=145824 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Stub, categories
21:49:19 <esolangs> [[Pararedox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145860&oldid=145733 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Template, categories
21:51:34 <esolangs> [[Halforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145861&oldid=145770 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) Link, categories
21:53:13 <zzo38> Is there a bijective base 2 Morse code? It seem to me that it can be done, with zero meaning a space between words, 1 for E, 2 for T, etc.
21:55:29 <esolangs> [[Estrita]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145862&oldid=145798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
21:58:02 <esolangs> [[RuleLoader]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145863&oldid=145815 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-42) Remove incorrect {{deadlink}}s and empty section, add link
21:59:28 <esolangs> [[Zudjn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145864&oldid=145848 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Stub, categories
22:01:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mint * New user account
22:01:24 <esolangs> [[Fiifinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145865&oldid=145776 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) Categories
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23:28:22 <esolangs> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145866&oldid=139870 * Woofmao * (+371) Extend cat example