00:09:46 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163135&oldid=163134 * Ello * (+42)
00:12:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[ ]] to [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]]
00:12:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]] to [[Lime Squeezer/ru]]: Misspelled title
00:14:08 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163140&oldid=163135 * Ello * (+35)
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00:15:48 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163142&oldid=163132 * I am islptng * (+84)
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01:17:24 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163153&oldid=163151 * Ello * (+38)
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01:28:16 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163155&oldid=163154 * Ello * (+21)
02:02:52 <esolangs> [[Sollux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163156 * Bigman4u * (+12023) First draft of sollux page
02:10:49 <esolangs> [[Fzzbzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163157&oldid=160446 * Bigman4u * (+55) add a link to another Fzzbzz implementation
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05:43:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163159&oldid=163158 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+10)
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07:45:59 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163160&oldid=158024 * Ractangle * (+24)
07:52:45 <esolangs> [[Setler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163161 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+3006) renamed language
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08:42:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:My github profile read me.png]]"
08:59:52 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163163&oldid=163161 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-3006) Blanked the page
09:00:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Setler]] to [[Oisg0ba328946vbser]]: idk how to delete this page
09:02:12 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163166&oldid=163165 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-32) Blanked the page
09:04:43 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163167&oldid=163166 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+106)
09:07:56 <esolangs> [[Setler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163168&oldid=163167 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+32) delete request
09:14:56 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163169&oldid=163168 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-71)
09:15:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Selter]] to [[Setler v1]]: i changed the name of the language
09:15:47 <esolangs> [[Selter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163172&oldid=163171 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+3) Removed redirect to [[Setler v1]]
09:16:01 <esolangs> [[Selter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163173&oldid=163172 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+2)
09:20:10 <esolangs> [[Setler v1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163174&oldid=163170 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+30)
09:21:41 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163175&oldid=163169 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+123) changed to disambig
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12:14:45 <esolangs> [[Sollux]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163176&oldid=163156 * Bigman4u * (+1) fix typos
12:50:40 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163177&oldid=163047 * Myalt2334 * (+25) I only needed one category, right..? I don't know how to fully categorize this.
13:19:26 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163178&oldid=163104 * Dhzb * (+86)
13:55:30 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163179&oldid=163177 * Aadenboy * (+105) categories
14:03:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163180&oldid=163080 * Pifrited * (+88)
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14:45:00 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163181&oldid=163180 * Pifrited * (+383) /* yxdyxxryi Lang */
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15:09:55 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163182&oldid=163178 * Dhzb * (+4) /* Rules */
15:10:06 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163183&oldid=163182 * Dhzb * (+8) /* Rules */
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15:48:45 <korvo> based299792458: Morning.
16:12:37 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163184&oldid=154619 * Corbin * (+370) Clean up the intro.
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16:40:15 <ais523> my normal hedging around the Church-Turing thesis is to say "any language that we know how to implement" when defining TCness, computability, etc.
16:40:47 <ais523> that should uncontroversially exclude the uncomputable ones
16:41:10 <ais523> (sometimes I also mention time travel as an example of something that gives more power but we don't know how to implement it)
16:42:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Insanely Easy]]": this page contains no useful content, in particular it does not contain a description of an esolang
16:46:01 <korvo> ais523: I'm working on the next edit, where I give Turing's argument that we can only write finitely many symbols on a region of paper. But yeah, for sure, there's many possible surprises in physics that we haven't ruled out.
16:46:47 <korvo> Personally I think that C = BQP, rather than something like C = R. BQP already requires the universe to commit to exponential amounts of data that can't be accessed, by Hardy's and Holevo's theorems, so it's already quite a difficult metaphysical pill to swallow.
16:47:55 <korvo> (Holevo's theorem, or Holevo's bound, says a row of qubits only yields a row of bits when measured. Hardy's ontological excess-baggage theorem says that a row of qubits has exponential amounts of bits when classically described. I didn't do it, man.)
16:48:14 <ais523> analog computers typically initialise with uncomputable numbers already in their integrators, but I'm not sure there's any way to actually benefit from that fact
16:49:18 <ais523> …actually the universe is *trivially* capable of going beyond TCness – Turing machines can't generate random numbers, but physical processes can
16:49:26 <ais523> I'm not sure why I didn't notice that before
16:50:34 <ais523> I guess you can argue that the random numbers don't give any extra computational power, but that depends on how you define "computational"
16:50:43 <ais523> but it makes at least some phrasings of the Church-Turing thesis obviously false
16:52:09 <korvo> Well, usually we use something like BPP or BQP, which evidence suggests are bounded as low as NP, and are definitely bounded by EXP.
16:52:37 <ais523> based299792458: it's possible, but it flips the burden of proof
16:53:09 <korvo> based299792458: No. Chaos is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions; the conditions are knowable but hard to estimate. QM is something very different. I usually start and end at the Kochen-Specker theorem: spin-1 particles have an observable which *cannot be definite*.
16:53:13 <ais523> korvo: EXP lets you simulate all the possible random outcomes, but it doesn't let you choose one of them
16:53:37 <ais523> at least, not randomly
16:54:11 <korvo> ais523: We only need PSPACE, by Feynman's approach; basically, we can write out each family of Feynman diagrams and there's only poly-many families. This led both to quantum computers and something called the "consistent histories" interpretation of QM.
16:55:05 <ais523> korvo: that's not my point – simulating all possible outcomes of a random process lets you compute anything deterministic that the random process could compute, but it doesn't allow you to pick a random number
16:55:53 <ais523> I was thinking about determinism earlier today because I was thinking about read-sidechannel exploits like SPECTRE
16:56:01 <korvo> ais523: Oh, sure. I suppose that if you want randomness, you need to ensure that the starting state is in superposition relative to the measurement device. This is easier than it sounds; with polarized sunglasses, one merely tilts their head.
16:56:49 <ais523> safe languages can prevent most exploits, but can't prevent sidechannels exfiltrating data, and it seems unlikely that modern processors would ever be immune to all possible ways of doing that
16:57:08 <ais523> so, running untrusted code even sandboxed is dangerous because it may be able to read secrets from your computer and exfiltrate them
16:57:19 <korvo> based299792458: No worries. Randomness is a very difficult concept. We usually end up intuiting or guessing that some fundamental object has a uniform distribution somewhere, and that misleads us when we try to extract high-level understanding.
16:57:52 <korvo> ais523: Right. I'm sure you've seen the argument about whether the universe is ones- or twos-complement, too.
16:57:53 <ais523> but, I realised that if you prove that the untrusted code is *deterministic* before running it, that proves that it isn't making use of any microarchitectural side channels
16:58:27 <ais523> although determinism is awkward here – it includes things like the timing of externally visible I/O
16:58:28 <korvo> It can still discover properties of the emulator, but they'll be Rice-trivial properties, rather than anything with interesting semantic content.
16:59:49 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163185&oldid=163184 * Corbin * (+3107) Explain Turing's intuition. We're still missing Church's perspective.
17:00:01 <ais523> it has made me think a lot about things like security mitigations, though, e.g. ASLR seems kind-of useless in most threat models because it's so trivial to derandomize the addresses, but is much more effective when the threat model is "the attacker gives you something non-Turing-complete to parse noninteractively"
17:00:37 <korvo> Speaking of Rice's theorem. I need to dig into this corner of the history more deeply. I gather that Rice's proof was along the lines of Church's proof of TC-ness; otherwise, I'm not sure what Rice proved, because Turing 1937 literally proves what we call Rice's theorem for TMs!
17:02:55 <korvo> ais523: Okay, here's a fun fusion. In one perspective, what you're saying is that we can de-weird a code host via determinism by removing the possibility that an untrusted hunk of code could have multiple distinct actions attached to it in differing contexts.
17:03:48 <korvo> And recently, I re-climbed the hill of Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph, which says that quantum states aren't epistemic. In particular, mixed states are just as real as pure states; superpositions are as real as prepared laboratory inputs.
17:04:50 <korvo> The key to Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph (PBR please) is that we want to imagine a black-box system preparing inputs. The inputs are labeled with the state that they were prepared in. Then, we show that if the labelings are ever wrong, then we can use that wrongness to create an overlap, and that overlap leads to contradiction.
17:05:57 <korvo> This is so similar to black-box correctness for unsafe code loading. The loaded code is black-box in its memory layout (and capabilities, etc.) but it can have a syntactic type annotation which proves that the code was loaded in a particular safe state. Then, we show that if it ever actually was unsafe, then that unsafety can escalate to unsoundness, then to weirdness, then to exploitation.
17:07:04 <korvo> The state of the laboratory around the PBR setup doesn't really matter. Why not? Well, we're not actually interacting with it!
17:08:06 <korvo> Similarly, your setup doesn't really care about ASLR because those regions can't be accessed. There isn't actually an interaction there!
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17:12:09 <korvo> ...On a re-read, I should move some of this [[computable]] stuff to [[Turing machine]]. There should be a section explaining why TMs capture computability; Turing wrote several pages justifying it, not just a single footnote.
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17:58:49 <esolangs> [[Computable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163186&oldid=163185 * Corbin * (+72) /* Intuition */ Try harder to give intuition.
18:22:48 <korvo> Do we have a repository for public-domain papers? If not, I can start one.
18:43:24 <esolangs> [[User:TheSpiderNinjas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163187&oldid=156409 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-5)
18:44:35 <esolangs> [[User:TheSpiderNinjas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163188&oldid=163187 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+34)
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19:03:07 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163189 * Ello * (+2938) Created page with "(XiNu or Xn) is an esoteric programming language made by Ello(me :D) ==Base Syntax== has a special quirk, it is nonary, which means all of its bits can have values from 0 to 8, the bytes in are 7 bits long and a kilobyte is 1013 bytes long, all outputted text in uses a speci
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19:38:40 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163190&oldid=163186 * Corbin * (+4309) /* Intuition */ Split and give Church's version too.
19:47:55 <esolangs> [[Computable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163191&oldid=163190 * Aadenboy * (+1) /* Via lambda calculus */ indent
19:48:14 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163192&oldid=163191 * Aadenboy * (+1) /* Via Turing machines */ another indent
19:58:30 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163193&oldid=163192 * Corbin * (+1302) This is such a sick mic drop. Also, add a history section to make it all read better.
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20:17:13 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163194&oldid=163152 * XP2PHOENIX * (+515) /* Ideas */
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21:51:50 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163195&oldid=156431 * Ractangle * (-146) /* Cat program */
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22:09:34 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163196&oldid=163008 * Junkshipp * (+281) /* #in - Induction */
22:11:21 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163197&oldid=163193 * Corbin * (+3450) /* Formalism */ Split. The existing section is basically topos theory. The new section is Yanofsky's approach!
22:37:01 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163198&oldid=163196 * Junkshipp * (+470) /* #in - Induction */
23:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163199&oldid=163198 * Junkshipp * (+389)
23:11:39 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163200&oldid=163199 * Junkshipp * (+3) /* Example code */
23:13:08 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163201&oldid=163200 * Junkshipp * (+31) /* Example code */
23:15:42 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163202&oldid=163197 * Corbin * (+1431) /* Via category theory */ And cap off with two versions of Rice's theorem. Very exciting.
23:33:38 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163203&oldid=163202 * Corbin * (+37) /* Via category theory */ Fix up bad phrasing and overly-broad statement.
23:34:41 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163204&oldid=163194 * Hotcrystal0 * (-51)
23:35:09 <korvo> Okay, I think I got everything worth getting. Yanofsky's 2003 paper is so good. Like, I wish that I could just slap cranks with it over and over and over again.
23:35:59 <korvo> I think that the first two sections of [[computable]] are accessible. I fully acknowledge that the three sections with maths are hard and compressed.
23:36:09 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163205&oldid=163204 * Hotcrystal0 * (+25)