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04:29:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Obscure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163307 * DifferentDance8 * (+383) Created page with "What should we do with this page's "implementation" status (as well as all the other languages where their only impementations were on Glitch)? Because TECHNICALLY at ONE stage in time it WAS implemented, but now that glitch stopped doing hosting, it's no lo
05:04:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Obscure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163308&oldid=163307 * Corbin * (+557) Good question!
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05:53:51 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163309 * Placeholding * (+16015) Created page with "{{lowercase}} :''gur yvsr'' is typically stylized as all lowercase. ''gur yvsr'' is the very first esolang created by [[User:Placeholding]]. It is inspired by [[Brainfuck]] and (slightly inspired by) [[Emmental]], though it is not as confusing as either of them (
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08:22:40 <APic> Celebrate Zaraday! Hail Eris! 😇
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09:01:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hiiragiaoi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163312 * Hiiragiaoi * (+24) Created page with "https://github.com/lxern"
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09:17:33 <esolangs> [[Nullscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163314&oldid=163313 * Hiiragiaoi * (-63)
09:19:55 <strerror> BQP more accurately describes: what we'd like to be able to compute, but it's not obvious yet whether we can actually do it
09:23:18 <strerror> The weirdness theorems (Bell, Holevo, etc) are probably right though--I think Aaronson once made the point that, if these laws didn't hold, physics would probably be extra weird in a way that would allow for even more computation
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10:31:12 <esolangs> [[User:Insulation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163317 * Insulation * (+91) Created page with "'''HELLLLOOOOOOOO''' I like breathing oxygen and nitrogen. I also expel carbon dioxide gas."
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12:54:30 <esolangs> [[~X]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163318 * Insulation * (+1814) One instruction esoteric language I think euguehehfifk
12:57:18 <ais523> a bit offtopic, but potentially big tech news: https://github.blog/news-insights/company-news/goodbye-github/ GitHub's CEO is leaving, and instead of acting as an autonomus company owned by Microsoft, it's being moved to be run by "Microsoft's CoreAI organization"
12:57:41 <ais523> I try to avoid using Github as much as possible, but am expecting major consequences anyway
12:58:44 <esolangs> [[~X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163319&oldid=163318 * Insulation * (+69)
13:07:23 <int-e> ais523: This news irritates me because I don't perceive it as a change. The AI focus was there when MS acquired GitHub. It's just officially under the AI umbrella now which I suspect is mainly for accounting (GH revenue becomes AI revenue).
13:07:51 <ais523> int-e: I agree that there's been a clear increasing AI focus there recently anyway
13:08:11 <ais523> but it was possible to interpret it as a side business, at least that's what I was hoping it was
13:08:48 <ais523> your accounting trick theory seems reasonable, although I'd at least hope investors would see through it
13:09:15 <ais523> anyway, the main consequence I see from this is that if Github becomes an AI platform rather than repository host, everyone may have ot move
13:09:56 <int-e> The CoPilot integration is quite obnoxious. (I have several cosmetic ublock filters for this already, and I hardly use the github frontend actively (to contribute, as opposed to browsing repositories))
13:10:49 <ais523> I found an option in the github settings to disable Copilot from the UI, which made things a lot better
13:10:54 <ais523> but it probably only works while logged in
13:11:07 <ais523> (do the AI features even work while logged out? they are at least advertised while logged out)
13:11:14 <int-e> I agree that it's symbolic enough that it might trigger an exodus of free software and open source developers.
13:11:40 <int-e> But I reserve the right to find it silly ;)
13:14:13 <ais523> I suspect there is an untapped market for things sold as "does not include AI, blockchain, or smart features"
13:15:57 <int-e> There is, but is it big enough to offset the additional income from adding this crap (with the implied data collection and tracking)? (It doesn't really matter whether this added income is imaginary or real.)
13:17:05 <ais523> hmm, it may depend on the seller in that case – some are likely to value imaginary tracking income higher than others
13:17:57 <int-e> . o O ( How many non-smart TV models are there these days? )
13:18:18 <int-e> (Sorry for the unfair question.)
13:18:29 * int-e should ask about fridges or washing machines to make it fair.
13:19:32 <ais523> int-e: that's what made me think there was an untapped market, I remember hearing someone complain about trying to buy one
13:19:33 <int-e> (Smart TVs are special in that the added value of using them for streaming video is real. It's just awful that the same technology is ripe for abuse.)
13:20:11 <ais523> earlier today I was reading a number of UK government reports that were trying to predict the consequences of increasing ownership of smart fridges and washing machines
13:23:11 <ais523> they had two main concerns: a) cybersecurity, b) the potential that the washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep, making the consequences worse if they malfunctioned
13:23:35 <ais523> b) this doesn't apply to fridges, which don't get a choice about what times of day they run
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13:54:49 <strerror> One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add
13:54:58 <fizzie> I feel there's definitely been an uptick in "creative" things (like stock video clip sites) advertising themselves as 100% AI-free.
13:55:06 <wib_jonas> it's large scale free webhosting. I don't think most users will suddenly migrate away just because microsoft reorganized it to another division
13:55:43 <fizzie> And Steam game pages have an AI disclosure statement.
13:56:36 <strerror> ( re TVs specifically: https://www.humansecurity.com/learn/blog/badbox-2-0-the-sequel-no-one-wanted/ )
13:58:44 <wib_jonas> TV is different, but I very much hope that non-smart fridges and washing machines exist, because if the ones that I use die I want to be able to buy new ones. in fact, both my brother and my parents bought new (non-smart) washing machines in the last few years, so they should still exist. wow, I have the *oldest* washing machine in the family!
13:58:45 <wib_jonas> though it's still not old, it's only roughly eleven years old.
14:02:31 <ais523> <strerror> One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add ← you probably don't have to prove it, you can just advertise it (assuming it's true) and many customers will rely on you not wanting to risk getting sued for false advertising
14:02:32 <fizzie> We bought a new non-smart fridge freezer recently, because the previous one stopped cooling anything down, which is pretty key functionality.
14:02:46 <wib_jonas> TVs are different for two reasons. I don't have one and don't want to buy one, whereas I love having a washing machine and fridge and wouldn't want to live without them. Regardless of "smart", televisions are effectively subsidized by Youtube and Netflix and other content providers paying the TV companies to make the TV come with prominent
14:02:46 <wib_jonas> dedicated buttons for those services on the remote control, and prominent menu entries in the UI. I don't think that sort of advertising deal happens to fridges or washing machines.
14:03:20 <ais523> fizzie: what functionality do they even have, other than cooling their contents, defrosting themselves, and illuminating their contents only when the door is open?
14:03:59 <fizzie> Not much. But the light still worked, so that's something.
14:04:07 <fizzie> It's like a display case for food at that point.
14:04:27 <ais523> the papers I was reading this morning said that only about half of smart TV owners had installed them in a way that allowed any of the smart features to work
14:04:36 <fizzie> Do they have any fridges with glass doors? That seems like a terrible idea, but maybe.
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14:05:05 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen a fridge, in a video or on TV, which had a variable-opacity door, I forget what caused it to become less opaque
14:05:15 <ais523> this struck me as a ridiculous feature even at the time
14:05:16 <int-e> fizzie: well they have thos in some grocery stores ;)
14:05:20 <fizzie> Our wine cooler (which we don't use, except temporarily when the fridge broke down, because it goes down to 6 °C or so, which is not too bad) has a transparent door.
14:05:42 <ais523> but it may have been featured in the video due to being unusual rather than due to being a good idea
14:05:44 <int-e> I'm sure there's a market for that but overall I'd rather have proper insulation.
14:06:09 <ais523> many of the groceries here used to have fridges without doors, some still do
14:06:27 <ais523> but most have added doors to save energy (both in terms of saving the company money and in terms of being good for the environment)
14:06:53 <ais523> I think what happened is that the grocery stores would have wanted to put the doors on all along, to save money, but were worried about the customers finding it inconvenient
14:07:09 <ais523> and advertised the environmental-friendless as an attempt to justify the increased inconvenience to the customers
14:07:34 <wib_jonas> strerror: it would be difficult for a hosting service like github. for a fridge or washing machine it's not hard, because fridges can come with no integrated electronics, and washing machines can come with just a small microcontroller clearly too small for anything "smart". same for stoves and ovens, dishwashers, microwaves, vacuum cleaners, audio
14:07:35 <wib_jonas> amps, etc. admittedly there's the slight complication that for some of these you need some basic expertise or a permit to disassemble them safely in order to physically verify that there's no complicated integrated electronics, but it's not a huge hurdle.
14:07:56 <ais523> ooh, now I remember: when I was much younger, there was a nearby supermarket which had an entire refrigerated aisle, it had curtains at the ends (that you could walk through) in order to reduce the amount of heat that escaped from it
14:10:10 <wib_jonas> except possibly for the fridge and microwave (and CRT televisions), you need the same expertise or permit to disconnect the appliance when you want to get rid of the device.
14:10:38 <wib_jonas> to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it.
14:11:41 <strerror> Amazon was sued over Alexa's collection of voice data; it doesn't seem to have left much of a dent: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/06/hey-alexa-what-are-you-doing-my-data
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14:12:58 <ais523> strerror: wow, that's dated 2023, I expected it to be earlier
14:13:24 <ais523> oh, I see, this is not just about recording, but about using the recordings to train an AI
14:13:32 <ais523> …that's even stupider than I expected
14:15:36 <ais523> it may be that the court case is still ongoing, given that it was only a couple of years ago – court cases often take longer to resolve than that
14:16:06 <strerror> A small vendor also can't be ordered to un-delete collected data because they'll likely have sold the data already. A large vendor at least could be expected to protect "their" data from further exposure. I think that's one reason why people trust larger companies
14:16:58 <strerror> Though if Amazon had ever sent the data out (e.g. for contractors to label) it would also no longer be possible for them to destroy it
14:16:59 <ais523> I've been sort-of following https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68117049/the-new-york-times-company-v-microsoft-corporation/ which seems to be one of the main court cases about AI training data
14:17:20 <DOS_User_webchat> tbh even my own site forbids ai scrape: https://ihatetehbsod.neocities.org/license.txt (thanks to jadeharley for the license btw)
14:17:24 <ais523> (the URL is a bit misleading: OpenAI and Microsoft are both defendants)
14:17:57 <DOS_User_webchat> i dont know why anyone would want to have their stuff used to train ai
14:18:14 <strerror> wib_jonas: I used to think so, but there are now bluetooth/wifi chips the size of a thumb, e.g. https://www.espressif.com/en/products/socs/esp32
14:18:48 <strerror> The datasheet claims it has a built-in antenna, though in practice you could just use the fridge as the antenna
14:21:12 <strerror> ais523: yes there were earlier ones, but duckduckgo's swamped with recency clickbait and I can't find those now
14:25:39 <strerror> ( from 2019, maybe the one you're thinking of: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio )
14:26:44 <ais523> strerror: paywalled, but I can figure out the story from the headline – that does seem about right
14:27:59 <DOS_User_webchat> strerror: oh the esp32? yeah, heard many good stuff about it. unfortunately all im getting out of my parents and school is an arduino and the crappiest one currently being sold
14:29:05 <int-e> . o O ( Surely the ToS say that they "may store audio for training purposes" and that means that they *do* store it because storage is cheap :P And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. )
14:29:17 <ais523> <wib_jonas> to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it. ← I had thoughts of trying to bootstrap a compiler starting from a platform which was too old and low-powered to be AI-complete, as a method of avoiding AI-complete trusting trust attacks
14:29:26 <ais523> although it was mostly as an esoidea rather than because I expected it to be useful
14:29:52 <ais523> nowadays, though, it is just about possible to imagine a compiler that contains an AI for inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds
14:30:36 <ais523> <int-e> And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. ← oh no, this is too plausible a possibility
14:31:34 <APic> Another Theory exists that states this has already happened. ;=P
14:31:37 <APic> Welcome to the Matrices!
14:35:43 <wib_jonas> strerror: 6 millimeters size and low power consumption. yes, I think you're right, that may be possible to hide. certainly in something like a modern washing machine, where you expect a microcontroller and decent power consumption from mains electricity.
14:40:40 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, that's pretty realistic. you could start from one of these old laptops with a 286 CPU and a few megabytes of hard disk and very little additional storage. I used one of those around 1995, so it shouldn't be impossible to obtain one. But I don't see what you'd use it for. You couldn't just copy the data to a modern computer without
14:40:41 <wib_jonas> reintroducing the same trust problems.
14:41:32 <int-e> APic: I assume it's happening. Not sure whether it would hold up in court but who's gonna have standing to sue?
14:42:16 <wib_jonas> "inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds" => that's not even the biggest harm you could do. a proper virus could instead modify other executables that your user has write access to, even if they aren't created by this compiler.
14:42:45 <int-e> wib_jonas: Sure, you'd do that too.
14:43:52 <int-e> But the Reflections on Trusting Trust lecture's point was that just because you compiled the compiler from scratch doesn't mean your compiler is going to be fine.
14:43:58 <wib_jonas> I've been thinking of that sort of malware for reasons unrelated to AI
14:44:30 <int-e> So the self-insertion into compilers is a crucial part of persistence.
14:45:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: the compiler needn't have to be involved, the malware part could come from a library that you're using, like a libc component.
14:45:37 <ais523> at least current AI probably isn't good enough to make that sort of malware – and even if it were, it would need either network connections or to store a local model in the executable, either of which I would expect to be detected
14:46:04 <ais523> so it probably isn't a realistic threat unless programs generally become so bloated that it becomes hard to tell whether they contain an AI or not
14:46:12 <int-e> wib_jonas: okay, the point is that even if you audit all your source code... you may still not be fine
14:46:25 <wib_jonas> ais523: doesn't have to be in the executable itself, the executable could have just a stub that loads most of the other parts from data files that you aren't paying much attention to
14:46:52 <wib_jonas> disguised as a useful plugin system
14:47:01 <ais523> wib_jonas: yes but if the AI is virally inserting itself into other software it can't expect that other software to ship the same data files
14:47:17 <int-e> I recall a later paper on this, hmm... this one: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html
14:47:30 <ais523> a program with a plugin system may not be suspicious, a compiler that unexpectedly adds a plugin system to its output that didn't appear in the source code would be very suspicious
14:48:09 <int-e> I guess the AI is there to circumvent Rice's theorem.
14:48:39 <int-e> "humans can probably recognize compilers and insert a backdoor, so an AI can do it too"
14:49:23 <APic> Good old Schneier ♥
14:49:46 <int-e> It's not Schneier's paper of course, but his summary is nice.
14:50:27 <wib_jonas> ais523: yeah, I think I have a different method of hiding and propagation in mind, not the classic compiler that inserts something into any executable, but I haven't tried to explain what it is. computers have enough large software components installed that you don't need to embed yourself into small progarms like /bin/cat .
14:50:38 <ais523> hmm, with a big software project it may be hard for humans to recognise whether it's a compiler, or in some cases even to define it
14:50:44 <ais523> is Chrome (the browser) a compiler, for example?
14:51:37 <wib_jonas> a compiler needn't be involved at all.
14:51:58 <wib_jonas> Chrome probably has a wasm compiler in it, but that's not really relevant.
14:51:58 <ais523> wib_jonas: I was responding to int-e, there, sorry
14:52:10 <int-e> . o O ( Chrome is not not a compiler. )
14:52:38 <korvo> strerror: Yeah, for sure. I don't *like* any of the no-go theorems; that's just how linear algebra is. Similarly, I'm not a big fan of complex-valued Hilbert spaces, but it's the unique viable model.
14:53:41 <korvo> ais523: I dumped yet another one of my old TAS-theory projects onto the wiki. The [[Witsaff]] language is a proposed sanity-introducing device for computing properties of randomizers.
14:53:45 <wib_jonas> I mean back when that idea came from, compilers were some of the largest programs on a system. that was still true around 2002 when I was making a better version of my 1.44 megabyte boot DOS floppy filled with the most useful utilities I could fit. there's a reason that one has a pascal compiler and not a C compiler. I would have wanted a C
14:53:45 <wib_jonas> compiler, but any C compiler I had access to wouldn't have fit.
14:54:04 <korvo> I don't know whether it's at all interesting to you, but it's yet another thing that I suspect TAS folks will want to see demo'd before they embrace it.
14:55:06 <ais523> korvo: is it about randomizers or TASes? I am interested in both but consider them largely separate topics
14:55:21 <wib_jonas> and the compiler already has a linker that knows something about the executable format used on the platform, so back then it used to make sense to hide something malicious in a compiler.
14:55:25 <ais523> most of the fun of a randomizer is in not knowing where the items are advance, doing it as a TAS completely defeats that
14:55:44 <ais523> (really, a TAS could probably luck-manipulate the items into being where it wanted them)
14:56:06 <ais523> I am a very experienced watched of Metroid Prime 2 randomizers, to the extent that I can often work out the logic in my head (although I've never actually played the game)
14:56:41 <korvo> ais523: The linked article, "a compositional theory of TAS", was written in the same week. Witsaff is for randomizers, composition is for TASs, and perhaps they separate into two distinct topics. But in my head it's all one big pile of goop.
14:57:13 <ais523> anyway, many of the randomizers have their logic files publicly available
14:57:31 <korvo> The link is that many randomizer players use a "tracker", an assistive tool which decodes the logic and enumerates the remaining checks. Witsaff could be used to generate trackers.
14:57:38 <ais523> so it may make more sense to write an importer for them then try to use a new feature
14:57:55 <ais523> korvo: oh, that doesn't even really count as tool-assisted speedrunning
14:58:09 <ais523> it is so much less powerful than actual TAS tools are
14:58:33 <korvo> ais523: I'm not quite good enough for Zelda 3 tourneys, but Zelda 3 randomizer play is expected to be tracker-less. I presume that Witsaff-generated trackers could be good enough to count as cheating.
14:58:33 <APic> What does TAS stand for? TASBot?
14:58:38 <ais523> a big difference is that TAS tools are normally able to evaluate hypotheticals about what would happen if the runner gave certain inputs, without actually changing the state of the game
14:58:52 <korvo> APic: "Tool-assisted speedrunning". Any kind of speedrunning that is augmented beyond mere athletics.
14:58:55 <ais523> APic: it's the same TAS as in TASbot: it stands for "tool-assisted speedrun" or "tool-assisted superplay"
14:59:10 <ais523> but I disagree with korvo's definition
14:59:44 <ais523> https://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos is a good introduciton
15:00:28 <korvo> ais523: Sure, and that's fair. AFAICT your career in TAS has been about quickly putting the console into a particular state, and there's nothing wrong with that framing. I'm probably overly-focused on athletics here.
15:00:30 <ais523> it links to https://tasvideos.org/Glossary#ToolAssistedSpeedrunTas which might be better
15:01:10 <ais523> korvo: the sort of speedrun you're thinking of is almost universally considered to be not tool-assisted, even if there are separate programs helping
15:01:30 <ais523> if the input is all done by humans in realtime, and there are no programs directly looking at the internal state of the game, then it's usually considered unassisted
15:02:09 <ais523> programs deducing the internal state of the game are normally accepted even in unassisted runs, as long as they don't interact with it directly (this is probably exploitable but I don't think I've seen any successful attempts to exploit it yet)
15:03:23 <ais523> actually, a great example is Super Mario Bros. 1 – the pseudorandom number generator for that game is time-based, and the top runners have memorised all the possible random number patterns, so they can tell what their time is by looking at the (pseudorandom) actions of the final boss and knowing how it would act based on what their time is
15:03:59 <int-e> ...heh. infer random seed from world, use that to run a copy of the game in parallel...
15:04:04 <ais523> (correction: not every possible one, just all the ones that could happen based on the plausible values for their finishing time)
15:04:16 <ais523> int-e: https://pellsson.github.io/
15:04:41 <int-e> "generally accepted" -- to me this sounds like the kind of thing that each speedrunning community comes to their own conclusion on.
15:04:57 <ais523> yes, there is no official arbiter of speedrunning rules
15:05:10 <ais523> but there are plenty of observable common patterns
15:06:17 <int-e> Minecraft is very visible and has (reluctantly?) allowed "calculators" for predicting, uh whatever these underground things with Nether portals are called.
15:06:31 <int-e> So that's a point in your favor that I'm aware of :P
15:06:45 <wib_jonas> ais523 => sure, but some trackers or autosplitters or practice tools do read (and sometimes modify) the internal state of old the game. For old console games this is done either through a custom cart or emulation. For new games they just modify the code of the game natively. more importantly, there's often a wide area of things that are too cheaty
15:06:45 <wib_jonas> to be allowed in real-time speedruns, but not powerful enough to count as tool-assisted.
15:07:40 <ais523> the SWAGGINZZZ thing (which is what my recent link is about) was more impressive than running just one copy of the game, they had a huge cluster of computers rented and used it to fuzz an efficient path through the rest of the game
15:09:31 <ais523> you're right that an exception is often made for autotrackers
15:09:48 <ais523> but those don't technically need memory watch, they could be made to work via screenscraping instead
15:12:18 <korvo> ais523: I think that context matters. If I were able to infer the layout of important items based on the layout of unimportant items, then I'd be worried that that can enable cheating. Whether I do it by RE'ing the RNG or by constructively interfering probabilities shouldn't matter.
15:12:43 <ais523> korvo: so this became something of a major issue in Slay the Spire, I believe
15:12:44 <korvo> But as somebody who is just awful, just truly garbage at Mario 1, I like your example.
15:13:02 <ais523> which allows just that sort of inferring, except that it's sufficiently easy that you can do it in your head
15:13:39 <wib_jonas> an interesting example is the Spelunky 2 True Crown. the True Crown is one of the two joke secret items included in the game. its main drawback is that it forcibly teleports the player every 22 seconds, according to the in-game per-level timer. this teleport can kill you easily by teleporting you into a wall or ground. the True Crown is useful for
15:13:40 <wib_jonas> high-score runs, and those are slow, because they involve staying on most levels for a long time to get as much gold and gems as possible, including digging most of the terrain for gold and gems, and letting the ghost convert almost all gems into diamonds. so for a while when the game was new, some runners used a tool that made beeping sounds
15:13:40 <wib_jonas> shortly before the teleport. but since this was implemented as modifying the game to watch an internal value (rather than watching the timer display on screen), players decided that it's banned for unassisted records.
15:13:53 <ais523> (tl;dr: it has multiple different RNGs, some handling important things and some handling unimportant things, but due to a bug they're all seeded with the same seed, so you can observe the random number pattern on one and it'll be repeated by the others)
15:13:59 <int-e> ais523: walk into a wall to advance the rng for free... pffft.
15:14:24 <int-e> but yeah, pretty close to what I was thinking of
15:15:33 <wib_jonas> multiple RNGs used for different purposes accidentally seeded with the same seed? wow, I hadn't heard of that in a real context, only as a theoretical thing that you must avoid.
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15:16:42 <ais523> Slay the Spire speedrunners eventually came up with a patch to seed the RNG properly
15:16:59 <ais523> or, may have been challenge runners rather than speedrunners, it's still much the same community
15:17:00 <wib_jonas> wait, walk into a wall to advance the rng? that's not a thing in Slay the Spire, is it? walking to advance RNG is for nethack or Mario 64 or others
15:17:15 <ais523> wib_jonas: I think int-e was referencing NetHack
15:17:15 <korvo> Minecraft used to be worse. Back during the alpha/beta days, it used one global RNG for everything. Terrain generation wasn't deterministic at all. They now use algorithms that I introduced in Bravo which set up a per-world RNG and extrapolate from a single noise source, so that chunk order doesn't matter.
15:17:26 <ais523> Slay the Spire doesn't have a walk command
15:18:04 <wib_jonas> WHAT? why would speedrunners have to do the patching? wasn't that game still in active development at the time, with expansions or something, so the maintainer could fix the bug?
15:18:31 <wib_jonas> or did they have to backport to an early version that was no longer maintained because that version was otherwise better?
15:19:16 <int-e> wib_jonas: yeah I was still looking at the nethack link
15:20:15 <ais523> wib_jonas: I don't know the details
15:20:52 <korvo> ais523: There's a link to compositional TAS here. To the extent that a "room" exists as a traversable space, it's a different "room" depending on global state like RNGs. But to the extent that multiple traversals don't actually use that state (say, they can walk or dash on a straight line every time), it's the same "room".
15:20:57 <int-e> wib_jonas: is deterministic generation of chunk a necessary feature in a game like Minecraft?
15:21:25 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, and in addition to Bowser's patterns, less importantly also the patterns of which height the hammer bros are
15:21:35 <int-e> you only play it once anyway, right :P
15:21:57 <ais523> int-e: at least from my experience with NH4, it's an improvement to the game but not completely necessary: you need it to allow multiple players to play "in the same world" which is a feature that many people don't care about but some might
15:22:33 <int-e> oh yeah it will help with keeping multiplayer games consistent
15:23:09 <wib_jonas> int-e: I think for something like Minecraft or Factorio, you can have the server generate chunks whenever someone discovers them and send them to the clients, but deterministic generation is usually easier. Factorio has deterministic and reproducible lazy map generation.
15:23:17 <int-e> To be clear... I think personally I generally want this kind of determinism in the game.
15:23:18 <ais523> either multiplayer, or seeded singleplayer
15:23:32 <int-e> But what I want isn't very objective ;)
15:23:41 <ais523> I went to a lot of effort implementing it in NetHack4 because I thought it was a desirable feature
15:24:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: or the server could even just generate a fresh seed whenever a new map chunk is generated, or periodically for other random events in the game, and send it to the clients who compute the map generation with the same result as the server, and the frequent fresh reseeding would make this unpredictable.
15:26:27 <APic> Multiplayer AceHack really, really pwnd 😌
15:26:31 <wib_jonas> int-e: it's ... complicated. sometimes you want reproducibility, sometimes you don't because eg. you want to practice a section from a savestate and want the randomness to vary after loading the savestate, to train for a real run where you won't be able to predict the state of the randomness because it will change based on your previous inputs.
15:27:08 <APic> How did You do it again? With Threads? Or multiple Processes and IPC?
15:27:24 <ais523> multiple processes communicating primarily via the save file
15:27:36 <ais523> there was a little bit of IPC involved for synchronisation but it mostly wasn't IPC
15:27:39 <wib_jonas> but you could also want reproducibility to organized versus matches in a tournament with the same seed.
15:27:47 <korvo> int-e, wib_jonas: For terrain generation, there's also accessibility concerns. We generally want rolling-hills terrain to be sufficiently smooth that the player can navigate it. This means that e.g. Minecraft terrain has to be generated from some reasonably-continuous noise rather than pure white noise.
15:27:56 <wib_jonas> sort of like duplicate bridge, but without the bridge.
15:28:31 <korvo> There is a Bravo plugin that makes Pandora (from Avatar) floating islands in the sky, and even that plugin uses smoothed noise so that the islands are contiguous and form little spindly land bridges.
15:28:50 <int-e> korvo: yeah I imagine that is challenging if you want to make generation of chunks independent of the order they're generated in
15:29:17 <wib_jonas> korvo: sure, but that doesn't really change much of this. it makes *lazy* terrain generation more difficult (meaning generating parts of a map on demand instead of the whole map in advance), but I don't think it makes determinism at all.
15:29:19 <ais523> I tried implementing a maze generator like that once
15:29:43 <ais523> i.e. trying to make a perfect maze where there's exactly one path from any location to any other, but where the chunks could be generated in any order
15:29:46 <wib_jonas> it does impact determinism a bit, but I don't think that causes too much difficulties
15:29:59 <korvo> wib_jonas: Oh! Of course, yes. Minecraft worlds are far too large to generate offline, or at least too large for me.
15:30:05 <ais523> my solution was technically correct but the edges of the chunks were too obvious in the resulting maze
15:30:25 <ais523> and I'm not sure how to fix it
15:30:34 <int-e> ais523: oh, tricky
15:30:53 <korvo> Actually, we could decompose this into a nicely multi-staged programming problem. We have a stage that defines the world, then a stage that randomizes the terrain, and finally a stage that generates the terrain. The generation can't change the randomization and is determined by it.
15:31:34 <ais523> the problem collapses to that of generating a function from Z² to Z with exactly one local minimum
15:31:57 <ais523> (then you can connect each location to a random adjacent location with lower value and you get a maze)
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15:35:47 <korvo> ais523: If the maze is hard enough then the obviousness could become a feature. One of Zenorogue's non-Euclidean games is "hyperrogue", like Nethack on hyperbolic tiling. The obviousness of the chunks helps the player figure out which region they are in or headed towards.
15:36:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Flashgutten * New user account
15:37:04 <ais523> korvo: so I have been working on a HyperRogue variant/derivative for a few years now
15:37:10 <ais523> I'm very familiar with it
15:37:16 <korvo> Oh, TIL. Good times.
15:38:04 <ais523> (the official version balances very unlike NetHack and is much closer to a puzzle collection than a roguelike – part of my goal with the variant is to move the balance point more towards that of a traditional roguelike)
15:39:43 <ais523> in particular, with the exception of Crossroads and theoretically Ocean, your actions in one land have only minimal effects on how the game plays unless you get at least 25 treasures in a land, which is nearly always an incorrect decision given that optimal strategy typically involves getting only 10 from the lands you visit
15:40:30 <ais523> so the game decomposes into a puzzle gauntlet of "nine lands, Hell, Orb of Yendor" with almost all the puzzles being unrelated to each other, you just have to solve them in order
15:43:03 <ais523> (and when you realise that, playing the game as intended doesn't make much sense any more, you may as well play the puzzles individually)
15:43:23 <ais523> one of the big ideas behind my variant was to swap the 10 and 25
15:43:34 <ais523> which really changes the way the game plays
15:45:23 <korvo> That's a big increase in difficulty, but I can understand the motivation.
15:45:31 <APic> ais523: Can You please give an Example? You mean You should also potentially get the BoH or Shield of Reflection from MinesEnd or Vlad or Jubilex?
15:46:05 <ais523> korvo: a) I agree, and b) I am trying to balance around it (but the game was almost certainly too easy for experienced players beforehand)
15:46:39 <ais523> APic: I'm not sure I understand the question – it looks like you're referring to something I said earlier but I'm not sure what
15:47:06 <APic> ais523: I probably did not understand Your 10/25 Swap properly at all
15:47:18 <APic> Treasures versus Lands
15:47:19 <ais523> APic: I was talking about HyperRogue rather than NetHack – it won't make much sense in the context of the wrong game
15:47:37 * APic does not know HyperRogue yet
15:48:26 <ais523> lands in HyperRogue are like branches in NetHack, treasures are scattered all around the floor of lands (each land has a different treasure) and make the land they're found in more dangerous, but also work towards completing the game, and can have an influence on other lands sometimes
15:48:57 <ais523> so gameplay in HyperRogue at the moment is normally about entering a land, picking up the minimum number of treasures you need to work towards completing the game, then leaving because the land is dangerous now
15:49:55 <ais523> in vanilla HyperRogue you need 10 treasures each from 9 different lands to unlock the main milestone towards game completion, but need 25 treasures from the same land to begin influencing most other lands (and even then the influence is usually quite minor)
15:50:12 <ais523> so the lands almost play out as completely unrelated
15:50:28 <ais523> because the treasures are the only thing that defines the character – you don't have upgradeable equipment or levels or max HP
15:51:31 <ais523> anyway, I only play HyperRogue in winter because it has an immediate mode UI and I don't like how much electricity that uses
15:51:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163320&oldid=163315 * Flashgutten * (+264) /* Introductions */
15:52:02 <ais523> (in winter, the electricity is less wasted because the waste heat goes towards heating the house)
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15:52:42 <HackEso> Flashgutten: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:52:55 <ais523> …although I see you found the wiki already
15:53:33 <APic> Hi Flashgutten
15:57:25 <fizzie> We were in Kew yesterday, and one of their glasshouses (the Princess of Wales one) had an _incredible_ temperature gradient in the vertical direction. You went up (or down) a meter, and it was like a completely different thing.
16:03:56 <korvo> My house currently has a gradient of maybe 0.5 C°/m or so. It's the hottest time of the year in the Pacific Northwest.
16:05:15 <korvo> Well, not a gradient, more like a thermocline. You can feel it when traversing the stairs.
16:16:00 <ais523> now I'm wondering how easy it would be to write a language where you express a UI as though it were an immediate mode UI, but it gets compiled into something more efficient
16:16:08 <ais523> I vaguely expect it to have been done already
16:16:57 <int-e> surely that's a monad :P
16:17:19 <korvo> ContT, specifically. You can apply it to something like GL. I think there's an old Dan Piponi post about it.
16:18:06 <korvo> Found it: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2011/10/quick-and-dirty-reinversion-of-control.html
16:18:10 <ais523> oh, it's basically that technique I was planning to use to implement Feather before I decided it wouldn't work
16:19:03 <ais523> the trick is in how the *writes* are implemented – you revert the program to the point at which the value was read, then rerun with the new value
16:19:40 <ais523> but I don't think monads are quite the right abstraction because this isn't linear – if you do (a + b) * (c + d) and one of the variables changes, you want to rerun its addition and the multiplication, but not the other addition
16:19:55 <korvo> The first comment mentions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/operational which was very trendy in those days.
16:20:45 <korvo> I fell out of love with all of this once I understood how continuations are related to actors; I chose actors because enumeration leads to better management of capabilities. Like, a Haskell lambda doesn't have any syntactic indication of its closure, while an actor can be forced to explicitly declare every local reference.
16:21:30 <ais523> korvo: thanks for the link – this might be useful for something else I've been thinking about
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16:22:48 <korvo> Oh yeah, it's quite cool. I was about 10% of the way into building a game engine for Haskell based on this stuff before I realized that it was fundamentally not a good path forward due to compile times, versioning, and syntactic ceremony. Maybe now it'd be better with Nix and nixpkgs.
16:24:19 <ais523> it is probably better for building esolangs with (although in my case I might be trying to translate it from Haskell to an esolang…)
16:24:27 <korvo> Oh, actually I was using `lens`, also trendy at the time. Very cool to have a generic notion of assignment and mutation over any Traversable.
16:24:39 <ais523> lens used to be a meme on this channel
16:24:57 <ais523> which is a pity because it probably reduced the odds of any constructive discussions about it
16:26:25 <korvo> ais523: There is the Lobster language, which isn't exactly immediate-mode, but certainly tastes like it. https://www.strlen.com/lobster/
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16:40:51 <korvo> ais523: Oh, something we didn't cover at all: Witsaff is declarative! In this sense, it's a big improvement on hand-rolled towers of Python for implementing logic. I know some randomizer communities are playing with SMT solvers for this, but I'd like to think that Witsaff is more readable. It's certainly more writable; I tested by using it to take notes on Jets of Time.
16:41:12 <korvo> I do agree with you that we can go look up the logics on GitHub, but 2400 lines of Python is something of a turn-off for me.
16:42:47 <esolangs> [[Lobster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163321 * Corbin * (+550) Stub a WVO language that keeps re-appearing in my periphery.
16:45:00 <b_jonas> ais523: "washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep" => the way it's phrased it sounds like a US suburban thing. I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors.
16:48:05 <esolangs> [[Wouter van Oortmerssen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163322&oldid=16155 * Corbin * (+31) Update links, add bluelinks.
16:49:10 <b_jonas> hehe, "variable opacity door", the supermarkets here sometimes have freezers with one, not as a feature but because the inside of the door gets frosty which makes it opaque.
16:57:14 <b_jonas> whoa, that SWAGGINZZZ nethack run sounds interesting, I should look at that
16:57:42 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163323&oldid=163309 * Placeholding * (-9)
16:58:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aquateraneal * New user account
16:59:38 <b_jonas> ok, so that figured out the seed and from then on it could manipulate randomness by simulating most of the game?
16:59:58 <b_jonas> which would of course be impossible in something like nethack4
17:00:38 <b_jonas> but the server at least generated the seed properly, it's not like the DOS speedrun that uses only the system time, right?
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17:02:29 <b_jonas> so they used the randomness in the initial inventory, because it's really fast to brute-force all 2**32 starting seeds that way.
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17:02:34 <ais523> korvo: at least the randomizer that I'm aware of had declarative logic implemented in JSON
17:02:45 <ais523> or, not implemented, described in JSON
17:03:08 <b_jonas> yeah, this is why you should use at least 96 bits of entropy for a random seed, so that your player can't have seen the same seed ever
17:03:22 <korvo> ais523: Ah, that is a definite improvement.
17:03:27 <ais523> <b_jonas> I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors. ← the report actually mentioned that as a possibility
17:03:39 <esolangs> [[User:Flashgutten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163324 * Flashgutten * (+2108) I am flashgutten
17:04:03 <ais523> I was planning to write my own placement algorithm, that took such a description as input and output a set of item locations
17:04:14 <ais523> but with a bias towards trying to produce interesting situations
17:05:19 <ais523> (I tried following Super Metroid randomizers before moving onto Metroid Prime 2, but the placements in Super Metroid just usually aren't very interesting and the strategies often end up fairly formulaic – Metroid Prime 2 somehow ends up being exceedingly good for randomizers, I think mostly because its map is designed as a series of interlocking loops and that gives a high potential for interesting paths0
17:06:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163325&oldid=163320 * Aquateraneal * (+159)
17:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Aquateraneal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163326 * Aquateraneal * (+13) Created page with "i is a potato"
17:09:53 <korvo> Yeah, the Super Metroid community is doing map randomizers now. It's one of those games where I think Witsaff could help generate optimal routes for major/minor, Chozo, etc.
17:10:31 <korvo> But map randomization is apparently a very tricky computational problem. They pre-generate like 10k maps per season and then generate seeds upon a randomly-chosen map. The birthday paradox means that occasionally runners will recognize maps or submaps.
17:11:03 <korvo> ...I suppose it's a special case of But Is It Art? and not obviously a special case of anything saner, so it's not surprising that it's hard, but I'd have expected it to be more like Wang tiling.
17:11:08 <ais523> the metroid prime series once had a sort-of working map randomizer, but the maps didn't connect up at all, they were just trees
17:11:42 <ais523> and I think it got abandoned, eventually
17:21:01 <korvo> I suppose that Prime 1's unique approach to level-building primitives is part of that story. It's not nicely laid out on a grid either.
17:21:34 <b_jonas> ais523: where Super Metroid randomizer gets interesting is that, at least in SMRAT and similar settings, you can gain a large edge if you know the randomizer logic well and use it to predict where items can be. this can get surprisingly deep and some players are very good in it, though the basics are easy to understand. it is kind of mind bending because you have to keep track of two different logics:
17:21:40 <b_jonas> one is what player tricks the randomizer allows when it makes sure that the map can be completed, which in the case of SMRAT is only very basic intended gameplay tactics, and what tricks you are willing to do in the run.
17:22:14 <ais523> b_jonas: right, this comes up in Metroid Prime 2, too
17:22:36 <ais523> I'm better at it than some of the actual runners (although it's probably easier when you don't have to think about actually playing the game at the same time)
17:23:52 <b_jonas> like the Varia suit can't be in places accessible only through heated rooms except for one, because Varia protects you from them, and there are even fewer valid areas for the Gravity suit, and the suits are the most important items so you want to find them efficiently.
17:23:55 <ais523> MP2 tricks are really interesting because there are some tricks that are very general but also very slow
17:24:22 <b_jonas> I used to watch a lot of SMRAT for a while, but I no longer watch them much
17:24:43 <ais523> although out-of-bounds tricks were banned in one of the most recent tournaments because they were making things a bit too repetitive
17:25:05 <ais523> and some people were so good at them that they were less of an interesting tradeoff
17:33:59 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163327&oldid=163290 * C++DSUCKER * (+3)
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17:39:56 <b_jonas> "+127 Magicbane" hehe, that's a weird idea, even in context of what you'd do with random manipulation to allow an easy ascension
17:42:21 <ais523> I don't like going too close to +127 / -128 for fear of char overflow messing up calculations somewhere
17:44:08 <b_jonas> you'd around 120 scrolls of enchant weapon, which is doable with farming, and for most scrolls you need to pass an 1/n probability check to enchant further from enchantment n, and a 1/3 probability check to make the weapon survive. I didn't even remember the first of those, because you never enchant weapons so high that it matters.
17:45:23 <b_jonas> and the second check is done even if the first check fails IIUC
17:45:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's quite reasonable
17:46:56 <strerror> (if you knew the rng state wouldn't you also just know when the next attack would overflow?)
17:47:26 <b_jonas> it's just that, if you curbstomp the game by manipulating randomness, a +127 Magicbane doesn't sound like the most efficient thing to do
17:48:07 <ais523> strerror: yes, that's what SWAGGINZZZ effectively did
17:48:12 <korvo> b_jonas: Yes, exactly. This is why Witsaff has the $ technique blocks. The idea is that *if* a player can perform a certain technique, then the tracker can indicate what's logically available *for them*, while still predicting probabilities based on a pre-trained matrix where the technique is disabled.
17:49:00 <korvo> This leads to a tracker that can predict a sequence break, more or less. Like, predicting multiple out-of-logic checks which each have high probability to enable the next check.
17:49:28 <ais523> korvo: my method of handling that in my own version was for technique requirements to be treated similarly to item requirements, needing 25 missiles to get through a door is similar to needing 3 skill in standable terrain (at least if missiles are easy to recharge)
17:50:09 <ais523> so you can treat them the same way in the implementation and just tweak its knowledge of the default "starting items" to control what tricks you're able to do
17:53:47 <b_jonas> wait, 90 wishes from just the fountain, or are there wands in between? can you get multiple wishes from a single fountain?
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17:56:18 <ais523> you can get multiple wishes from a fountain
17:56:32 <ais523> the odds are very low, but that doesn't bother a TAS
17:58:05 <b_jonas> and you don't need to do anything special between the wishes, like sacrifice to regain alignment or luck?
17:58:14 <b_jonas> I never try to go for fountain wishes
17:58:24 <b_jonas> so I don't know their rules
17:58:28 <b_jonas> I barely even remember how thrones work
18:00:01 <b_jonas> wait, how does "Phase-jump to priest" on Astral work? does that mean polymorphing to a Xorn?
18:00:19 <b_jonas> this isn't Astral, it's the Sanctum
18:02:48 <b_jonas> um, I can't get the dumplog from the link in the article
18:06:32 <b_jonas> https://archive.alt.org/dumplog/SWAGGINZZZ/1546732576.nh361.txt works
18:06:39 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163328&oldid=121014 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Implementation */ mor golf
18:06:54 <ais523> b_jonas: the usual dumpfile search tools can't find it either
18:07:55 <ais523> ascending while hallucinating is something special, especially because I don't think the character had knowledge that that was the correct altar (the player did via the RNG sync)
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18:13:21 <b_jonas> doesn't the game tell you the name of the god if you're standing on the high altar, even when hally?
18:14:47 <ais523> b_jonas: possibly but I can't tell from the log, it didn't nearlook
18:14:56 <ais523> but I think you normally just get a hallu god
18:15:43 <b_jonas> can you try to sacrifice an ordinary monster to find out?
18:16:34 <b_jonas> why are there so many "poobah" in the log? is that a hallu thing?
18:16:48 <b_jonas> are those priests or angels?
18:17:07 <b_jonas> can't be angels, Moloch doesn't have angels
18:18:03 <ais523> priests, I think, and yes a hallu thing
18:19:42 <b_jonas> there's a "The poobah of your Friend the Computer" and "The high poobah of the Central Bank of Yendor", so you must be right about randomized god names
18:20:06 <b_jonas> that must be new after 3.4.3
18:39:39 <b_jonas> hmm, the two different brands of liquid soap end up forming distinct layers when I refill. the better soap seems to be heavier. I wonder if I should do experiments to find out if it's the better soap that's unusually heavy, or the worse soap is unusually light, or it's not a density difference but some weird effect from refilling (unlikely).
18:49:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * New user account
18:56:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163329&oldid=163325 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+198)
18:58:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163330&oldid=163329 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+52)
18:59:55 <esolangs> [[HAPPA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163331&oldid=155899 * Ractangle * (+6)
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19:12:53 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163332 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+136) Created page with "Hello. I create the dumbest esolangs, and my username pretty much says it all. ===List of my esolangs=== [[]]<br> [[]]<br> [[]]<br> ..."
19:14:35 <ais523> hmm, claiming to create the dumbest esolangs is a pretty bold claim
19:14:39 <ais523> there are some really dumb esolangs out there
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19:26:34 <b_jonas> ok, this is such a tease and letdown. new CodeParade video, "palindromes" in the title. in the opening he reads a phrase that clearly wants to be a palindrome because it's meaningful backwards. at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap08_AGPh8s the palindromes says "DNA wastewater cessation", which backwards starts with "Noita's secret". but the video says NOTHING AT ALL about the long unsolved secret
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20:16:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163333 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+48) Created page with "Describe me and add <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> after."
20:16:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163334&oldid=163333 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+6)
20:28:00 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163335 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+102) Created page with "{{Wip}} =Short Description= The same [[bf]] but without "<",">",",", only "+","-","." but "." here "A""
20:48:51 <esolangs> [[User:Insulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163336&oldid=163317 * Insulation * (+216)
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22:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163337&oldid=163247 * Hotcrystal0 * (+7)
22:26:37 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163338&oldid=163128 * Hotcrystal0 * (+221)
22:28:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:APGsembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163339 * Hotcrystal0 * (+279) Created page with "Does this have input/output? ~~~~"
22:29:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zowepsilon * New user account
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23:46:10 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163340&oldid=163316 * WarzokERNST135 * (+66)