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01:59:53 <esolangs> [[WY-Anglis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166232&oldid=166207 * PrySigneToFry * (+2481)
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02:32:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166234&oldid=166230 * ERN468 * (+226) I added my introduction
02:34:50 <esolangs> [[EA Script, It's in the code.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166235&oldid=151304 * ERN468 * (+4) Add reference to APLWSI page
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06:01:56 <esolangs> [[Non-Loop FizzBuzz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166236 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+529) Created page with "'''Non-Loop FizzBuzz''' is like [[FizzBuzz]] but instead of doing a range of number you indefinitely ask the user for input and then print the FizzBuzz number. == Example == === Code: === <pre> while True: i = int(input("Enter a number: ")) if i %
06:18:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JTO IS JUMP TO * New user account
06:39:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166237&oldid=166234 * Intiha * (+193)
06:42:00 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166238 * Intiha * (+539) Created page with "About Me: Hi! Im Intiha. Im fascinated by esoteric programming languages and love experimenting with weird and creative language concepts. I enjoy making new languages, forks, and exploring programming challenges just for fun. Projects / Interests: Creating new esol
06:42:34 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166239 * Intiha * (+1518) Created page with "## Overview ThingLangOOP is a minimal C implementation inspired by ThingLang, which was made by [[User:Rasa8877]]. It combines a compiler and runner in a single file, fully compatible with TCC. Supports variable assignment, printing, loops, events, and comments. #
06:42:55 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166240&oldid=166239 * Intiha * (-1)
06:45:59 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166241&oldid=166240 * Intiha * (+56)
06:46:51 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166242&oldid=166241 * Intiha * (+10)
06:51:21 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166243&oldid=166242 * Intiha * (+7874)
06:51:56 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166244&oldid=166243 * Intiha * (-2)
06:52:28 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166245&oldid=166244 * Intiha * (+3)
06:56:01 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166246&oldid=166245 * Intiha * (-7810)
06:57:24 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166247&oldid=166246 * Intiha * (+16)
07:11:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Rasa8877]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166248&oldid=164628 * Intiha * (+241)
07:12:51 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166249&oldid=166247 * Intiha * (+0)
07:14:19 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166250&oldid=166249 * Intiha * (-7)
07:36:49 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166251&oldid=166238 * Intiha * (+28)
07:37:08 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166252&oldid=166251 * Intiha * (+22)
07:37:40 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166253&oldid=166252 * Intiha * (+4)
07:38:02 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166254&oldid=166253 * Intiha * (-22)
07:39:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166255&oldid=166226 * Intiha * (+45)
07:45:56 <esolangs> [[Non-Loop FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166256&oldid=166236 * PrySigneToFry * (+879)
07:47:20 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166257 * Intiha * (+2948) Created page with "=== Overview === Yes/No is a minimalistic esolang made by [[User:Intiha]] where every program consists solely of the words **Yes** and **No**. Programs are sequences of these words, and their meaning is derived from binary patterns. ==== Basics ==== * `Yes` = 1 * `No` =
07:47:46 <esolangs> [[Non-Loop FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166258&oldid=166256 * PrySigneToFry * (+59)
07:50:17 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166259&oldid=166257 * Intiha * (-931)
07:50:51 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166260&oldid=166259 * Intiha * (-31)
07:51:06 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166261&oldid=166260 * Intiha * (+1)
07:53:13 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166262&oldid=166254 * Intiha * (-220)
07:53:41 <esolangs> [[User:Intiha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166263&oldid=166262 * Intiha * (+2)
08:03:42 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166264&oldid=166261 * Intiha * (+9165)
08:04:14 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166265&oldid=166264 * Intiha * (+1)
08:04:50 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166266&oldid=166265 * Intiha * (-8) /* Hello world! */
08:06:53 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166267&oldid=166266 * Intiha * (+384)
08:09:22 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166268&oldid=166267 * Intiha * (-75)
08:23:03 <b_jonas> might be of interest to esolangs: https://www.righto.com/2025/10/solve-nyt-pips-with-constraints.html "Solving the NYTimes Pips puzzle with a constraint solver" blog entry by Ken Shirriff
08:24:40 <b_jonas> Ken Shirriff introduces himself to the world of finite domain constraint problems
08:30:05 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166269&oldid=166268 * Intiha * (+110)
08:32:47 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166270&oldid=166269 * Intiha * (+198) /* Python Interpreter */
08:42:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166271&oldid=166255 * Intiha * (+25) /* Y */
09:38:32 <esolangs> [[Yes/No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166272&oldid=166270 * Intiha * (+81)
09:42:11 <esolangs> [[ThingLangOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166273&oldid=166250 * Intiha * (-1)
10:00:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Yes/No]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166274 * Intiha * (+220) Created page with "Hello! this is the talk page for Yes/No feel free to say anything here, except hate speech, politics and the racism/sexist stuff == this is where you say stuff == (EXAMPLE: ```{Your Name}: Hello, World!``` and the time)"
10:02:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166275&oldid=166271 * Intiha * (-25) /* Y */
10:03:05 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166276&oldid=166275 * Intiha * (+25) /* Non-alphabetic */
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10:26:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166277&oldid=166276 * Ractangle * (-54) fixed the non-alphabeting list
10:41:22 <esolangs> [[ALMFCPLIR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166278&oldid=161715 * Ractangle * (-9)
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11:02:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Yes/No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166279&oldid=166274 * Intiha * (-8)
11:12:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166280&oldid=166227 * Esolangist * (+109)
11:15:57 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166281 * Esolangist * (+66) Created page with "Hello there! I will plan to make many esolangs. Goodbye (for now)"
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11:45:29 <esolangs> [[Alphacode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166282 * Esolangist * (+1183) Created page with "Alphacode is an esolang made by [[User:Esolangist]]. It is based on the alphabet. == Commands == <code> a [object] -- pushes [object] on the stack b [label] -- a label. can be used for comments or as a forever loop c [label] -- jumps to b [label] d -- pops the t
12:06:49 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166283&oldid=166228 * C++DSUCKER * (+283)
12:14:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ivava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166284&oldid=166210 * Ivava * (+241)
12:19:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ivava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166285&oldid=166284 * Ivava * (+159)
12:20:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ivava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166286&oldid=166285 * Ivava * (+4) /* ideas from me */
13:54:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166287&oldid=166280 * PrySigneToFry * (+766)
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16:24:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166288&oldid=166237 * Ais523 * (-17441) clear down to 1 month of introductions
16:26:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (02-07-2025 to 19-09-2025)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166289 * Ais523 * (+17514) archive I'm not sure why we're archiving the anti-spam feature, but given that there are existing archives we may as well continue for the time being
16:27:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166290&oldid=166288 * Ais523 * (+126) archive link do we actually need these on the page?
17:20:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Calvizx * New user account
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18:31:34 <esolangs> [[User:Ivava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166291&oldid=166286 * Ivava * (+844) /*A little ABSOLUTELY USELESS text about me */
18:35:49 <b_jonas> so Wube managed to hide two esoteric domain-specific sublanguages in Factorio 2. one is Factorio 2 combinators, which are much more powerful than (and a strict superset of) Factorio 1.1 combinators. the other is much more obscure, the engine has a way to evaluate certain expressions on 32-bit integers, which is exposed in several places where the game has a numeric input field. usually you can only use
18:35:55 <b_jonas> integer literals (decimal or hexadecimal) and a particularly annoying set of ten operators. but in parametrized blueprints, you can in addition use named variables that you can repeat multiple times, and you can make a list of statements that assign the value of an expression to a named variable, the statements are executed once in order, you can then use the results in several places where the
18:36:01 <b_jonas> parameter of an entity in the blueprint needs a number.
18:39:47 <b_jonas> the language reminds me to blindfolded arithmetic in that you can technically write conditionals but they make it very annoying. the ten operators are: addition (modulo 2**32), subtraction (modulo 2**32), multiplication (modulo 2**32), truncating division (on signed 32-bit integers), exponentiation (I haven't experimented with how this works), abs (on signed 32-bit input with output modulo 2**32), log2
18:39:53 <b_jonas> (position of highest bit for positive integers, I'm not sure what it does for negative inputs), max, min.
18:41:32 <b_jonas> https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/concepts/MathExpression.html gives a partial documentation but doesn't tell the full syntax, eg. I don't think you can guess from that page that "944(376)" is a formula that multiplies 944 with 376, equivalent to "944*376", you probably have to experiment with the game or reverse engineer the executable to find all the rules.
18:43:50 <b_jonas> the expression evaluator function, together with variables, is exposed in the lua API, so you can at least test it automatically quickly without having to enter formulas in a GUI numeric field
18:45:28 <b_jonas> drat, I'll eventually have to writes some notes down about Factorio in a wiki article, don't I?
18:54:57 <b_jonas> anyway, of course these aren't the only two esoteric languages in Factorio, there's all sort of emergent programmable subsets that come up when you want to build with constraints, these two are just clearly designed in
18:57:05 <b_jonas> sorry, I forgot the last built-in operator in the expression evaluator language: sign, which returns -1 or 0 or 1 according to the sign of its input
18:59:24 <b_jonas> I think it's even worse than I thought, apparently the intermediates in expressions aren't even 32-bit integers, because 1/2 results in 0 but (1/2)+(1/2) results in 1
19:00:19 <b_jonas> so the division isn't even an integer truncating division
19:01:52 <b_jonas> "510000000000/1e10" results in 51
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19:02:55 <b_jonas> "510000000000/100000" results in 5100000
19:03:31 <ais523> b_jonas: theory: they're double-precision floats but converted to 32-bit integers for display
19:04:13 <int-e> dies 1e12 result in -727379968?
19:04:19 <b_jonas> ais523: not just for display, because the numbers can go into a circuit signal, and those are definitely 32-bit integers
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19:04:28 <ais523> or, well, for output purposes
19:05:14 <b_jonas> I'll have to test if the variables in parametrized blueprints can hold non-integers
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19:06:38 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what conversion converts 1e12 to -727379968, it isn't any of the standard ones other than int64_t to int32_t but an int64_t can't store 0.5
19:07:37 <ais523> so maybe it's a two-step conversion? or maybe this is a "wrapping convert double to int32_t" operation but I don't think most languages provide those
19:08:57 <b_jonas> and the blueprint parameter intermediate named variables can store values that aren't 32-bit integers too
19:09:02 <ais523> b_jonas: what does it calculate 18014398509481987 - 18014398509481984 as?
19:09:36 <ais523> (on double-precision floats this is either 2 or 4 depending on rounding mode, on integers it's 3)
19:11:46 <ais523> OK, so doubles (also I think it's either 0 or 4 rather than either 2 or 4, I was out on the original numbers by a factor of 2)
19:12:07 <ais523> on single-precision floats you would almost certainly get 0
19:12:26 <ais523> (and the answer would be in the billions if using the one rounding mode where you don't)
19:14:58 <int-e> b_jonas: A fun detail is that they tried to change this behavior to clamping in 2.0.44 but ended up reverting it in 2.0.45: https://forums.factorio.com/128129
19:16:19 <int-e> (something I only know about because I watched one of Anti's speedrun attempts around that time)
19:16:44 <int-e> AntiElitz, not AntiPatience)
19:16:45 <ais523> oddly all this makes me less inclined to play Factorio (although I probably wouldn't have done so anyway) – for a game like that I sort-of want the TCness to be an emergent property of the way the game elements work rather than being a separate layer intended for programming
19:16:57 <ais523> (this is also one of the reasons I dislike shapez.io)
19:17:52 <int-e> you've said that before, and I still think that the game would likely be too hard to play for normal people then
19:18:07 <int-e> as an automation game at least
19:18:30 <ais523> anyway, it explains the weird rounding that b_jonas is seeing – it was probably changed from uint32_t to double internally, and then the result was manually wrapped to approximately preserve old behaviour
19:19:15 <ais523> int-e: it'd make for better YouTube videos, though, which might arguably be more important
19:19:50 <b_jonas> ais523: the numeric formula language doesn't even come up in normal play, that's why I hadn't been aware of any of these details until today even though one of the blog entries mentioned that they added the formula language. in particular, if you aren't using mods then this numeric formula language won't get evaluated automatically, only a finite few times when you do particular use interactions: build
19:19:56 <b_jonas> a parametrized blueprint that uses formulas, which I've never done before today, and Factorio 2 has been out since 2025-09, or enter a formula to a numeric field, or queue an infinite research (their cost as a function of their level is apparently defined in this language in the modding API)
19:20:47 <b_jonas> ais523: now your complaint might make sense if you are talking about the *combinator* language, which does get evaluated and is deliberately there for intermediate players to write very simple programs in, and of course some people write very complicated programs
19:21:02 <ais523> I guess being too hard for normal people to figure out on their own could even be a feature – you could set it up something like Celeste, whose game mechanics are all available from the start but you get taught them gradually over the course of the game
19:21:13 <b_jonas> and there are of course some much better reasons why not to play factorio (it's a very addictive infinite timesink)
19:21:46 <b_jonas> you only get the second dash in like the sixth chapter of Celeste but sure
19:22:04 <ais523> b_jonas: ah right, I wasn't thinking about that
19:22:42 <zzo38> Some games might have Turing completeness if the grid (and numeric values, if necessary in order to indicate grid positions) can have an unlimited size.
19:22:44 <b_jonas> maybe I'm not enough of an esoteric programmer, but I still don't think I'll use this formula language in practice in games, except in as much as it's evaluated every time I enter a literal number to an input box
19:22:47 <ais523> the funny thing is that some of them, the developers were initially unaware of, and got tutorials added for them when they saw speedrunners use htem
19:23:03 <int-e> b_jonas: hmm another fun thing to test could be 18446744075857035264 -- is that -2147483648 or maybe -1? (-1 is what you'd get from a clamping conversion to signed 64 bits followed by a modulo 2^32 reduction)
19:23:13 <ais523> (and levels designed around them)
19:23:23 <b_jonas> ais523: not just tutorials, but also a (bindable) shortcut key to do dash without holding down but then start crouching right afterwards
19:23:51 <ais523> b_jonas: that's the one known mechanic that's intentionally never required in the game
19:24:02 <ais523> but yes, the developers did add a keybinding feature to make it easier
19:25:07 <int-e> oh, a third option, fun
19:25:28 <int-e> and one that doesn't make immediate sense to me
19:25:46 <ais523> "if the number is outside the int64_t range, clamp to int32_t" is possible behaviour
19:26:00 <ais523> especially given that it was clamped to int32_t at some point in history
19:26:07 <int-e> I mean, it's clamping, but why is it clamping in this case when it reduces modulo 2^32 for smaller values...
19:26:14 <int-e> ais523: yeah, maybe
19:27:03 <int-e> or maybe it's not even the whole 64 bit range but some other cut-off
19:27:18 <b_jonas> int-e: some of the developers sometimes answer questions online, in the Factorio forums or on Discord, so if you really want to know you can try to ask them
19:27:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166292&oldid=114296 * Zzo38 * (+497)
19:28:06 <b_jonas> (and one of them streams Factorio development on twitch too)
19:28:27 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah I'm not that desparately curious :-P
19:28:39 <int-e> (I don't even have the game.)
19:30:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:1 Bit, an eight byte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166293 * TheBigH * (+195) created page
19:30:48 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the formula evaluation might be partly exposed in the free demo. not in a way where you can reach the lua api, but you might technically be able to input and evaluate expressions with literals only manually in the GUI.
19:31:07 <esolangs> [[Woosh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166294 * Corbin * (+385) Stub for an independent invention of executables-as-methods.
19:32:24 <b_jonas> hmm… now I want to download a new version of the free demo and test how much is exposed about circuit wires or blueprints
19:34:15 <b_jonas> also technically the headless (no GUI) server that is free to download should expose the lua api
19:34:43 <b_jonas> but you might not be easily able to set that up without having a copy of the GUI, I don't know
19:35:28 <esolangs> [[Smalltix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166295 * Corbin * (+710) Stub for a language that is probably going to eat my brain. I will explain the core concept in a separate page.
19:39:47 <korvo> I would like to propose that we get rid of [[Object-oriented paradigm]] on the basis that we also have [[Category:Object-oriented paradigm]]. Alternatively, I would like to propose that categories not have any prose in them. I don't want to have two different pages that both explain OOP.
19:44:26 <int-e> korvo: Well it's only one sentence on the category page, that's comparable to how it's done for "Computational class" and "Turing-complete".
19:46:21 <korvo> int-e: Yeah, but I wrote a big blurb at [[Category:Functional paradigm]] and now I'm wondering where that sort of blurb should go.
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19:48:12 <int-e> Yeah based on this tiny sample I feel that it should be in the main namespace instead.
19:49:36 <b_jonas> korvo: the wiki search searches only the main namespace by default, so if we have interesting things to say about object-oriented programming then it's probably better to put them into the main namespace article. categories can have description not to explain what object-oriented programming is, but to explain what the category means and what we put in it, since that needn't be unambiguous from the
19:49:59 <korvo> int-e, b_jonas: Okay. I'll do it later; right now I need lunch. I appreciate the guidance.
19:50:34 <b_jonas> korvo: probably wait at least a short time in case ais523 or fizzie have feedback
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19:55:00 <b_jonas> actually the release date is s/202[45]-09/2024-10-21/
20:01:15 <ais523> I think I prefer paradigm descriptions to be in the main namespace than on the category description page
20:01:29 <ais523> or, well, the category description page should be limited to saying what goes in the category, rather than explaining it
20:01:58 <ais523> it's also common on many wikis for the mainspace page that's about the same thing that the category is in to be placed into the category, but intentionally missorted
20:02:04 <ais523> so that it comes first
20:02:34 <ais523> people normally use a sort key of * for that, but on Esolang we may have to use ! (the alphabetically first sort key) because there are so many weirdly named pages
20:02:43 <b_jonas> oh, let's do that, that gives me more excuse to put non-languages into certain categories of mostly languages
20:03:54 <ais523> (the syntax is, e.g., [[Category:Functional paradigm|!]])
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20:33:26 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, so you can actually make circuit wires or parametrized blueprints in the demo, even from just the built-in tutorial. (if you load a save that you modified with the full game then you can do more, including launch a rocket or cheat in other ways.)
20:34:38 <b_jonas> get to the second level of the tutorial, use the alt+R hotkey to pull up the red circuit wire tool (this is exposed in settings->controls so you don't need the full game to guess), connect the preexisting burner inserter to a piece of belt, then you can set an enable circuit condition on the inserter or the belt, and if that includes a numeric constant, then you can make a blueprint of them and
20:35:04 <b_jonas> the demo basically includes all of the vanilla game, probably so that they can add any menu simulations in it.
20:35:43 <b_jonas> the built-in tutorial locks your research and doesn't give you oil and only a few specific oil products are on the map, so without loading a savefile that you can't create in the demo you can't progress very far,
20:35:54 <b_jonas> but the functionality is all there in the demo, it's just slightly locked away.
20:37:02 <b_jonas> even the graphics is there by the way
20:40:54 <b_jonas> I'm just saying this as a curiosity, not because I expect int-e to start playing with the demo, to be clear. don't play the demo unless you have no dependent children and lots of free time.
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21:04:04 <Kokice> Is esolangs.org down for everyone or is it just me?
21:04:40 <ais523> Kokice: it's been slow today – probably another AI-bot attack
21:05:35 <ais523> 10-20 seconds of waiting usually seems to be enough to load pages atm
21:06:18 <int-e> I do yearn for the times when the wiki was responsive.
21:06:56 <Kokice> Odd, I'm getting "Connection reset by peer" instead of no response.
21:07:16 <esolangs> [[F calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166296 * C++DSUCKER * (+1210) Created page with "F Calculus is a Combinatory logic system with as only combinator 'F' It was devised to see how simple a Combinator could be when it has to both access an oracle and do logic. it is also inspired by SE calculus == Description ==: <code>F i => if i has a beta norma
21:07:34 <esolangs> [[F calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166297&oldid=166296 * C++DSUCKER * (-1) Fix
21:12:38 <ais523> that means that something involved with the connection (other than your computer) reset it
21:12:41 <ais523> maybe your ISP gave up waiting?
21:12:42 <int-e> Hmm, I guess it's conceivable that some researcher on CARNet had an aggressive crawler and got the whole range block?
21:13:20 <int-e> *if* the problem is on the wiki end of things I mean.
21:13:28 <ais523> I've had good luck in the past trying again immediately after a connection-reset-to-peer (but I haven't seen that specific error in ages, so don't have recent experience)
21:13:39 <ais523> err, connection-reset-by-peer
21:13:57 <ais523> it's more commonly seen on IRC than it is on HTTP, although it can happen in both places
21:31:52 <esolangs> [[F calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166298&oldid=166297 * C++DSUCKER * (+47)
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21:33:15 <esolangs> [[F calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166299&oldid=166298 * C++DSUCKER * (+4)
21:33:53 <esolangs> [[F calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166300&oldid=166299 * C++DSUCKER * (+9)
21:34:18 <esolangs> [[F calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166301&oldid=166300 * C++DSUCKER * (+4)
21:50:47 <fizzie> This scraping thing is just ridiculous.
21:51:34 <fizzie> Although it's dropped back down to "only" 80% CPU load (from being pegged at 100%) just 10 minutes ago, so maybe it's okayish again.
21:51:53 <ais523> unfortunately, I fear it isn't plausibly going to stop, even if there's no market for the scraped pages (which there probably won't be in a bit – the pages that require a lot of effort to scrape also tend to be the least useful)
21:52:42 <ais523> it's like email spam – the scrapers have found a setup that occasionally makes money and costs them almost nothing
21:53:00 <ais523> at the cost of the entire Internet having to deal with it
22:05:24 <fizzie> I'll probably need to do either the Anubis thing or a logged-in-only thing for "expensive" pages (diffs, maybe history of gigantic pages), but I won't get the chance until at the earliest next weekend.
22:13:34 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if some of the scrapers started being able to beat Anbuis – it might be becoming widespread enough
22:14:47 <ais523> beating spambots and scrapers is one of the few fields where security through obscurity actually work well, e.g. the wiki used to have massive spambot issues before the "Introduce yourself" thing was added and then spam rates dropped to effectively 0
22:15:18 <fizzie> I've temporarily turned off hack.esolangs.org/repo, because it's really more of a nice-to-have, and seemed to be responsible for most of the load (at least in terms of qps: it's getting 15, compared to 5 for the wiki).
22:15:25 <ais523> (my suspicion is that the spammers were using human CAPTCHA-solvers but they were only integrated with the create account page, so having a step after account creation completely broke the spambot framework)
22:27:49 <b_jonas> another bad part is that if useful websites can't keep up with spammers' queries then that incentivizes me to scrape the whole website quickly before it disappears, but from everyone else's point of view that makes me hard to distinguish from the spammers who send too many queries
22:28:19 <b_jonas> now for the esowiki in particular I can download the dump and the monthly chat logs, but for many other websites it's not that easy
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22:40:23 <ais523> b_jonas: using an honest useragent normally makes it fairly easy to tell you apart from malicious scrapers
22:41:17 <ais523> there's an anti-scraping toolkit that works by looking at the user-agent and checking to see whether the other headers match those which would be sent by the browser and version that it's claiming to be
22:41:45 <ais523> things that vaguely resemble real user-agents get blocked, things that are nothing alike get permitted because those are normally well-behaved scrapers
22:42:04 <int-e> Hmm, have I mentioned here how much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Windows_usage_share is amusing me? (This connects to honest User-Agents, I believe.)
22:42:06 <ais523> (and things that exactly match real browser user-agents check the other headers)
22:42:48 <ais523> int-e: I don't remember seeing that, but yes, windows 7 being the most-used version of Windows is implausible
22:43:23 <int-e> (the amusing thing is that up to about six months ago the Windows 7 number was at about 3%... probably a tad inflated, but not completely out of the realm of possibility)
22:43:49 <int-e> (I started out with "a month")
22:44:13 <ais523> it might be worth mentioning that the methodology is probably wrong, somewhere
22:44:46 <int-e> It does, it says "according to StatCounter" ;-)
22:46:12 <int-e> (mostly meme-ing, but it does indicate that the source is web traffic analysis, and apart from User-Agent headers, what do you really see...)
22:46:36 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but that too mostly applies more to esolangs than to some other websites where people look less at the details of headers of random queries
22:47:07 <ais523> int-e: but most people reading articles giving those figures are unlikely to make the connection
22:47:28 <int-e> ais523: Also, if you actually follow that wiki link, you'll find "[...] the numbers in the statistics can not be considered to be representative samples."
22:47:29 <ais523> the current situation with scraperbots is known to most people who host websites – but most people don't host websites, so they would be unaware
22:48:08 <int-e> ais523: I agree that it could be made more obvious :)
22:51:05 <int-e> Steam's hardware survey says 0.07%, but that's also biased for obvious reasons. (link: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam )
22:57:43 <b_jonas> I think the majority of actual Windows 7 will be running old domain-specific software in non-personal use, and the amount of those machines are hard to measure in any way, they won't run steam or access most of the popular services on the internet
22:58:02 <b_jonas> a lot of new software doesn't support Windows 7 anymore
22:58:10 <b_jonas> whereas Windows 10 is still well supported
23:00:45 <b_jonas> my software dayjob uses Windows 10 and Windows 11 and their Windows server equivalents. newly started projects use Windows 11 or its server version for the production machines, whereas my work laptop runs multiple Windows 10 instances, and some of the other in-house infrastructure is running Windows 10 too (some run Linux, mind you).
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