02:27:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PrincessPandaLovelace * New user account
02:29:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179106&oldid=179102 * PrincessPandaLovelace * (+451) /* Introductions */
02:35:15 <esolangs> [[SonicSaga]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179107 * PrincessPandaLovelace * (+428) Created page with "{{Stub}} {{WIP}} '''SonicSaga''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:PrincessPandaLovelace]]. It is themed after the ''[[Wikipedia:Sonic the Hedgehog|Sonic the Hedgehog]]'' video game series. The source code style is based on ''Sonic''
03:43:16 <esolangs> [[E0ZACH-C+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179108&oldid=179105 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-2) esolang, not "estrolang" please
03:44:35 <esolangs> [[E0ZACH-C+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179109&oldid=179108 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+9)
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04:58:14 <esolangs> [[NFOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179110&oldid=174689 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2) /* Memory */
04:59:15 <esolangs> [[NFOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179111&oldid=179110 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+41)
05:02:36 <esolangs> [[Mention]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179112&oldid=165115 * PKMN Trainer * (+8)
05:11:08 <esolangs> [[SonicSaga]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179113&oldid=179107 * PrincessPandaLovelace * (+18)
05:49:42 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179114&oldid=178969 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+69) /* my esolangs */ metamorphosis
06:22:09 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179115&oldid=179056 * Dragoneater67 * (+31) /* uwu nyaaa :3 rawr */
06:26:34 <esolangs> [[Dango]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179116&oldid=172980 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-4802) new dango
06:36:02 <esolangs> [[Dango]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179117&oldid=179116 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+153) /* Syntax */ forgot to add labels
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08:38:46 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179119&oldid=177426 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+111)
08:41:02 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/Miracle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179120 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+98) Created page with "{{Stub}} {{WIP}} '''Miracle''' is an [[esoteric programming language]]. It does not exist ''yet''."
08:51:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179121&oldid=179095 * PKMN Trainer * (+19) /* F */
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09:24:58 <esolangs> [[Functionable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179123&oldid=179122 * PKMN Trainer * (-12) /* Computational class */
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10:27:04 <ais523> Yayimhere: I've been pretty busy recently
10:27:17 <ais523> and it's probably made trying to concentrate on programming even harder
10:27:26 <ais523> this morning I opened up the computer to start programming and then just didn't
10:28:55 <Yayimhere> also, what ended up happening with the FWoTD thing?
10:29:11 <dragoneater68> regarding fwotd: i came to conclusion that my solution sucks, so i didnt publish it
10:29:39 <dragoneater68> i think this is what ill do today since i dont have much else to do
10:29:49 <Yayimhere> btw the TC requirement was removed
10:31:14 <dragoneater68> whats the lowest computational class that can do looping counter?
10:32:00 <Yayimhere> it makes sense for Otto be that, because looping counter is linear
10:33:34 <Yayimhere> yea, but that bound grows by a linear function
10:35:22 <Yayimhere> idk what the smallest comp class can do narrcicists and quibbles and such though
10:38:23 <Yayimhere> thats for the quantum scientists to find out
10:40:48 <Yayimhere> I think. I just kinda get quantum mechanics a little bit
10:41:49 <Yayimhere> I get to the point that functions on a particle applies to all the super positions
10:41:56 <ais523> <dragoneater68> whats the lowest computational class that can do looping counter? ← the computational class "this language only has one command and it's a looping counter command"
10:42:48 <ais523> an LBA can't do a looping counter, incidentally, because looping counters have to be able to count up arbitrarily high and the distance an LBA can count is limited by the size of its input
10:43:19 <Yayimhere> I seem to have misunderstood an LBA then
10:43:32 <Yayimhere> I thought the linear function continued to be applied each iteration
10:43:41 <Yayimhere> what is that class called? does it have a name
10:44:08 <ais523> the looping counter class? I don't think we have a good name for classes that are specific to a single program or a few specific programs (like HQ9+'s computational class)
10:44:38 <ais523> I studied quantum computers as coursework at school, but it was at a very basic level
10:44:48 <Yayimhere> no I meant for the class where the memory size grows linearly with some linear function starting from the input
10:44:55 <ais523> Yayimhere: that's an LBA
10:44:56 <dragoneater68> i think that the current computational claases are too narrow
10:45:12 <ais523> it's an LBA if the memory size is set at the start of the program, as a linear function of the input size
10:45:40 <ais523> if it can change during the program (and grow indefinitely) it isn't an LBA, but the "linear" restriction doesn't really matter at that point, because you could just run the program really slowly to give the memory more time to grow
10:46:31 <Yayimhere> wait so if the function is exponential it could be the same as one thats linear
10:47:20 <ais523> there are some TC languages where the memory grows linearly, like https://esolangs.org/wiki/2C and its variants
10:48:10 <ais523> when 2C is simulating a function that requires exponential amounts of memory, it slows down exponentially to give the memory time to grow
10:49:40 <Yayimhere> is there a formal way to describe, in general, that exponential slow down of the program
10:49:52 <ais523> I think there should be but I don't know what it is
10:50:14 <Yayimhere> maybe thats undecidable for some programs though
10:52:25 <ais523> oh, hmm, there's some theorem about space complexity versus time complexity but I can't remember what it's called
10:52:45 <ais523> I think that might be what you're looking for, but I don't want to guess at the details because it is probably very sensitive to the exact way the theorem is worded
10:53:58 <dragoneater68> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immerman%E2%80%93Szelepcs%C3%A9nyi_theorem
10:55:38 <ais523> dragoneater68: that's an interesting theorem but it isn't the one I was thinking of
10:59:00 <dragoneater68> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_hierarchy_theorem
11:00:13 <ais523> huh, this isn't the one I wanted either, but it's really interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%27s_speedup_theorem
11:00:29 <ais523> dragoneater68: I'm looking for a theorem that relates space complexities to time complexities
11:04:30 <ais523> huh, that paper claims that EXPTIME = PSPACE, which would IIRC be a major result if true?
11:05:12 <ais523> it's also very recent (2024)
11:05:37 <ais523> I would be suspicious of it until it's been reviewed, there has been a history of mistakes made in computational class equivalency proofs
11:06:03 <Yayimhere> yea. but if its true, then I guess that could be. cool
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11:07:58 <ais523> so it's fairly obvious that anything that can be solved in polynomial space can be solved in exponential time, because there are only exponentially many possible states of a polynomially-sized memory
11:08:17 <ais523> and so you can just run the program until it finishes or starts repeating states, and that takes exponential time
11:08:25 <ais523> the other way would be a bit surprising (but not obviously impossible)
11:09:18 <ais523> I can't think of an obvious reason why finishing in exponential time would mean you only need polynomial amounts of memory
11:09:18 <b_jonas> yeah, that sounds very unlikely
11:10:23 <b_jonas> "finishing in exponential time would mean you only need polynomial amounts of memory" => note that to get the low amount of memory, you may need a different program that's much slower
11:10:53 <b_jonas> hold on, I think there was some recent surprising theorem like this, let me look up
11:11:26 <ais523> b_jonas: much slower but still only exponential, of course
11:14:41 <b_jonas> it's just that I don't think EXPTIME = PSPACE was the actual result, that's why I'm trying to look it up
11:14:55 <b_jonas> it was something surprising like that, but not quite that exactly
11:20:05 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179124&oldid=168746 * PKMN Trainer * (-47)
11:20:48 <b_jonas> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-09.html#lsj https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8680 every problem solvable in t time on a multi-tape Turing machine is also solvable in close to sqrt(t) space
11:20:55 <b_jonas> that was the surprising result
11:21:16 <b_jonas> it's certainly much weaker than EXPTIME = PSPACE would be
11:21:42 <b_jonas> paper is https://eccc.weizmann.ac.il/report/2025/017/
11:22:16 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179125&oldid=179124 * PKMN Trainer * (-57)
11:22:56 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, I agree that that's surprising
11:23:43 <ais523> (and is the sort of theorem I was trying to find in the conversation earlier, determining space required based on time required)
11:26:51 <b_jonas> the abstract for that article also says "any language recognized in polynomial time can be recognized in almost logarithmic space" which I'd find much harder to believe, so I'm not convinced that this is a real result
11:27:18 <b_jonas> I mean the article https://arxiv.org/abs/2311.01184 that you linked earlier
11:29:39 <ais523> was dragoneater68 who linked it, not me, but yes, it is making some very surprising claims and thus (to me) falls into the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" category
11:30:34 <ais523> I am not entirely ruling out the possibility, but it would take a lot of convincing to convince me that it has actually been solved
11:31:09 <ais523> (even if the result happens to be true, I think the odds of the proof being wrong are quite high)
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11:33:26 <ais523> that said, I can't quickly find counterexamples to "polytime recognition = logspace recognition", the first few languages I tried did have logspace recognition algorithms
11:34:03 <ais523> (assuming that we're talking about logarithmic additional space)
11:34:16 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I think that's one of those relations that are actually really hard to disprove
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11:34:38 <ais523> b_jonas: right, it isn't obviously etiher true or false
11:35:19 <ais523> I assume this is talking about P and L rather than NP and NL?
11:35:46 <b_jonas> specifically https://complexityzoo.net/Complexity_Zoo:E#exp says that "if L = P then PSPACE = EXP, so the first claim of that article is almost a consequence of the second, except the second in the article might be a slightly weaker result, it's unclear to me
11:41:17 <ais523> so NL is known to be contained in P, and L is obviously contained in NL
11:41:26 <ais523> so L = P would also imply L = NL
11:43:21 <esolangs> [[NO WAY? NO WAY!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179126&oldid=179092 * PKMN Trainer * (+37) /* Instructions */
11:44:15 <ais523> (the existing result that NL = co-NL would be obviously trivial in this setting, so that's some suggestion that L = NL = P might be possible)
11:44:22 <esolangs> [[NO WAY? NO WAY!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179127&oldid=179126 * PKMN Trainer * (+0) /* Cat */
11:46:31 <ais523> heh, Wikipedia says that it isn't even known whether or not L = NP – I guess in a way that's also evidence that P might equal L!
11:46:54 <b_jonas> yeah, absolute separation theorems are hard
11:47:12 <esolangs> [[NO WAY? NO WAY!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179128&oldid=179127 * PKMN Trainer * (+0) /* Cat */
11:47:38 <b_jonas> and if there was a real result like this then Scott Aaronson's blog would mention it, and I think if it had actually said PSPACE = EXPTIME I'd even remember it
11:47:47 <b_jonas> also the Complexity zoo would mention it
11:48:09 <ais523> this one is new enough to potentially be correct but not reviewed yet (but it's also new enough that mistakes in it might not have been caught yet)
11:49:01 <b_jonas> it's from 2023-11. I know mathematics can be slow, but for something that's a really big breakthrough we'd hear about it, at the very least hear about uncertainty because they're still checking the proof
11:59:01 <korvo> Yayimhere: Quantum mechanics is all about Hilbert space. We start with vector spaces over complex numbers. It's just a different way of working with numeric objects.
11:59:17 <korvo> Our intuition is Cartesian closed: we can copy and delete thoughts. QM doesn't allow that.
12:00:56 <korvo> ais523: Tangent to both conversations, Feynman's way of summing path integrals is in PSPACE. There is kind of a mystery about how that interacts with Holevo's theorem and Hardy's theorem, but it's a good example of EXPTIME intuitions turning into PSPACE algorithms.
12:04:15 <korvo> Yayimhere: Well, think about chemistry. If you have one beaker of water, there's no chemical reaction that will duplicate it into two beakers of water, right?
12:04:47 <korvo> Some quantities in QM are conserved; they don't change over time. This means no copying or deletion of stuff.
12:05:33 <ais523> the reversibiliity of quantum computing is interesting but I don't think it's the main point
12:06:46 <ais523> quantum computing is primarily weird because it's sort-of massively multithreaded with exponential threads (in the sense of a mathematically-nondeterministic system), but unlike typical nondeterminism, you don't get the "best result" or "least halting result" or "most halting result", instead each of the threads gets to influence the probability of a particular result being visible in a somewhat complex way
12:07:03 <ais523> and programming it is about trying to make the probability influences combine in such a way that they maximise the probability of getting the answer you wanted
12:07:21 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want a plausible candidate for decision problems that are in P but probably not L, we're hoping that password hashing functions do this. This is technically not quite right, because it could be possible that there's a logarithmic space algorithm whose time complexity, though polynomial, is too slow to be practically usable, but I think close enough.
12:07:22 <ais523> but you only get one result and it's random, in most cases all possible results have some probability
12:13:33 <esolangs> [[Rhombitrihexagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179129&oldid=155343 * 5anz * (+84) /* Triangles */
12:15:23 <korvo> I don't want to say that the exponentially-many-superpositions model is wrong per se, but it's got a lot of metaphysical issues. The biggest one is the preferred-basis problem: whether something is in superposition is often conditioned on how one *rotates* their laboratory.
12:16:19 <korvo> I find myself pinned between theorems. Hardy's theorem requires exponentially-large state spaces but Holevo's theorem says that we can only read one bit of information per measured qubit, a linear amount. So most of the state is inaccessible.
12:17:45 <korvo> The Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph (PBR) theorem says that the wavefunction is ontic, so that exponentially-large state space isn't just a mathematical artifact; it also forces Everettians to deal with preferred bases.
12:18:58 <korvo> So we're left with a situation where the wavefunction is real but particles aren't real. (If you really insist that particles are real despite this then the Kochen-Specker theorem (and its consequence, Bell's theorem) will force you to accept something undesirable, either non-locality or superdeterminism.)
12:19:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Be bold in editing pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179130&oldid=146110 * Qazwsxplm * (+6)
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12:22:48 <ais523> korvo: so my interest is more in "how this is programmed" rather than "how this actually works, physically"
12:23:04 <ais523> I don't mind if the model is physically inaccurate as long as it allows you to understand how the programming language would work
12:23:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179132&oldid=179131 * Qazwsxplm * (+224)
12:23:42 <korvo> ais523: Sure. They dovetail, though; we've proven that there's *one* semantic model for QM: the category of complex-valued Hilbert spaces. So there's really only one starting point.
12:24:56 <korvo> This might not be obvious, given how many physicists try to introduce toy models. But whether it's Spekkens or Wolfram, toy models are known to not be able to reproduce QM in 3D thanks to Kochen-Specker.
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12:28:19 <korvo> ais523: I guess that, zooming out, my view is that if I know which category to use for programming a system then I already have a half-decent syntax for expressing programs. Cammy is built on Cartesian-closed categories but it's not self-hosting, so I can always create a Hilbert-flavored Cammy, a relational Cammy, etc. just by switching the constructions used to build the category.
12:28:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179135&oldid=179134 * Qazwsxplm * (+239) /* Sandbox */
12:28:53 <ais523> korvo: that's a respectable view but I suspect you're in an extreme minority among programmers
12:29:21 <korvo> But other than that, I'm not sure that our intuition for how things are programmed can be transferred. Lambda-binders *are* Cartesian-closedness; they're two ways of looking at the same phenomenon. There's no lambda calculus for QM.
12:29:28 <ais523> syntax the computer-science concept and syntax the programming concept are clearly connected and yet many people prefer to disregard the connection
12:29:49 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, but most programmers are conservative know-nothing blowhards. (Most humans, really.) I will accept the tradeoff of actually knowing a little foundational physics.
12:30:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179136&oldid=179135 * Qazwsxplm * (-239)
12:30:36 <ais523> meanwhile, I'm the sort of person who acknowledges the connection exists, but prefers to only actively use it when talking to computer scientists because when talking to other people, it's not good for communicating
12:30:43 <ais523> anyway, /away for a bit
12:30:49 <korvo> Sure. Take it easy.
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13:26:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Policy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179150&oldid=174609 * Qazwsxplm * (+179)
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13:38:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179152&oldid=179150 * Ais523 * (-179) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/179150|179150]] by [[Special:Contributions/Qazwsxplm|Qazwsxplm]] ([[User talk:Qazwsxplm|talk]]) although accurate, we shouldn't really need to state the obvious; if someone gets banned without a warning then they were likely doing something fo
13:40:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179153&oldid=178875 * Qazwsxplm * (+6) /* Add a logo on Vector 2022 */
13:41:48 <korvo> I will think about how to phrase it, but I think qazwsxplm points out something important. We don't explain the remedies for policy violations. Some stuff is spilt milk; we say "please don't do that" and clean it up without punishing anybody.
13:42:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179154&oldid=179153 * Qazwsxplm * (+1) /* Translate to other languages */
13:44:56 <esolangs> [[List of esolang file extensions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179155&oldid=178844 * Qazwsxplm * (+29)
13:46:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Qazwsxplm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179156&oldid=178576 * Qazwsxplm * (+185) /* THANK YOU */
13:50:31 <ais523> well, I'm mostly following the usual "if someone breaks the rules then tell them about it, if someone is actively disruptive give a ban" – I don't expect everyone to have read the Policy page
13:50:38 <ais523> it would be nice if they did, but unrealisitc
13:50:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179157&oldid=176564 * Qazwsxplm * (+196) /* Coincidentally this title has seven English words */ new section
13:51:16 <ais523> in general it is best to tell people about rules only in the situation where they might break them, beause otherwise it's too hard for a new user to remember all of them
13:51:45 <ais523> that's why, e.g., the rules for creating a page are primarily on the "create new page" page
13:53:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Septem Lingua]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179158&oldid=179157 * Qazwsxplm * (+26)
13:53:30 <ais523> still a bit busy, anyway, will be offline for a bit longer
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13:53:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Septem Lingua]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179159&oldid=179158 * Qazwsxplm * (+15)
14:00:38 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179160&oldid=132421 * Qazwsxplm * (+46)
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14:08:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ultraslayyy * New user account
14:08:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:DateTri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179161 * Qazwsxplm * (+185) Created page with "a calendar date, a romantic night out, and fruit... Three meanings of "date"... Hmm... Interesting. ~~~~"
14:22:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Qazwsxplm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179162&oldid=179156 * PrySigneToFry * (+123)
15:09:17 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/iLGwMLS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179163 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1289) Created page with "iLGwMLS is a class of problems. Lets get these definitions: * <code>K</code> is a program. * <code>M<sub>i</sub></code> is the memory of <code>K</code> at iteration. * <code>|x|</code> is the length of <code>x</code>. * <code>A</code> is the in
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15:34:45 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/iLGwMLS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179164&oldid=179163 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+15)
15:36:15 <korvo> Mental health is on an uptick. I repotted some Aloe vera and put out four trays of Capsicum annuum (bell pepper) seeds.
15:36:55 <Yayimhere> (i assume mental health being on an uptick is a good thing?
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16:16:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179165 * Meh2 * (+74) Created page with "9 --~~~~"
16:36:35 <lambdabot> METAR EGLL 081620Z COR AUTO 19009KT 150V240 9999 NCD 25/10 Q1020 NOSIG
16:36:47 <fizzie> This is just ridiculous for early April.
16:38:21 <lambdabot> METAR KPDX 081553Z 00000KT 10SM SCT250 07/03 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP192 T00720033 $
16:38:48 <korvo> It's basically summer already.
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17:06:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Dd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179166 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+232) Created page with "I struggle to see how this in any way could be an FSA. FSA's, a the least, takes input. its much weaker than an FSA. --~~~~"
17:45:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179167&oldid=179106 * Ultraslayyy * (+153) Yay my name's in here
17:45:51 <esolangs> [[Penis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179168 * Ultraslayyy * (+3097) Created the Penis page
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17:48:52 <Yayimhere> i made a (user subpage) for the class of problems I was talking about earlier while you were gone(if that interest you)
17:49:15 <ais523> fizzie: I assume you're commenting on the 25/10?
17:49:31 <ais523> but yes, in England that would be an outlier even for summer
17:51:06 <esolangs> [[User:Ultraslayyy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179169 * Ultraslayyy * (+186) Created page
17:54:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ultraslayyy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179170&oldid=179169 * Ultraslayyy * (+14) Fix smiley face :)
17:57:48 <fizzie> Yes. Well, it's not supposed to last long.
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18:13:02 <esolangs> [[Stactal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179171&oldid=157283 * * (+89) /* Programs */
18:18:15 <esolangs> [[Stactal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179172&oldid=179171 * * (+198)
18:21:26 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179173&oldid=178473 * Ultraslayyy * (+48) Added Penis
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18:58:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Finite-state automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179174&oldid=10396 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+380) /* Two kinds of FSA language */
19:03:33 <esolangs> [[Reuts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179175 * * (+1577) Started page
19:12:52 <esolangs> [[Reuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179176&oldid=179175 * * (+288)
19:17:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179177&oldid=174484 * * (+340) /* So I made a language */ new section
19:18:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179178&oldid=179177 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+192) /* So I made a language */
19:25:22 <esolangs> [[Reuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179179&oldid=179176 * * (+179) /* Commands */
19:26:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179180&oldid=179178 * * (+53) /* So I made a language */
19:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179181&oldid=179180 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+408) /* So I made a language */
19:33:47 <esolangs> [[Mention]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179182&oldid=179112 * PKMN Trainer * (+18) /* Computational class */
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19:37:53 <esolangs> [[User:PKMN Trainer/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179183&oldid=176266 * PKMN Trainer * (-26) Blanked the page
19:41:18 <esolangs> [[Reuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179184&oldid=179179 * * (+894) Added explanation of Shasavic theory
19:42:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179185&oldid=179181 * * (+145) /* So I made a language */
19:55:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Epzen * New user account
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20:12:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179186&oldid=179185 * Aadenboy * (+566) /* So I made a language */
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20:50:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:99 bottles of pain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179187 * MinekPo1 * (+2261) Created page with "Hi! I've decided to implement 99BoPa, and my implementation does not lead to your example hello world program outputting hello world, but "$!((+T106\n3+.( ". As you acknowledged that program is possibly incorrect, can you check my program, which should
21:19:05 <shachaf> Huh, I hadn't heard of https://esolangs.org/wiki/%CE%A3%E2%88%9E
21:19:18 <shachaf> I was given a description of the language and "construct 1" as a puzzle.
21:36:28 <int-e> That is a cute puzzle.
21:42:24 <int-e> shachaf: is it too evil to write it like this: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/db68af75
21:42:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:99 bottles of pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179188&oldid=179187 * MinekPo1 * (+67)
21:46:33 <b_jonas> int-e: how does that work? it seems to have a free variable
21:47:40 <int-e> b_jonas: No, each x is bound by some Σ[P≤x<P]
21:54:41 <b_jonas> this needs some variable renaming so it doesn't shadow so much
21:54:59 <int-e> which is why I asked whether this was too evil
21:55:13 <int-e> finding a short expression for two may be hard?
21:55:46 <int-e> (my first version has 169 characters)
21:59:55 <shachaf> My solution for 1 had only three sigmas.
22:00:08 <shachaf> Well, four at first, but one was unnecessary.
22:04:07 <int-e> Did they give you 0?
22:04:09 <b_jonas> wait, so are you allowed to have a sum from infty to infty and will that sum have just one term?
22:04:38 <int-e> b_jonas: No. It won't have 0 terms.
22:04:40 <b_jonas> or is it no terms because it's an empty half-open interval
22:05:04 <int-e> b_jonas: "For example, `Σ[∞≤x<∞]∞` = 0 because there are no natural numbers greater than or equal to infinity."
22:05:30 <int-e> (I didn't read that far before, but it is actually on that page.)
22:05:37 <b_jonas> so that's how you get zero, but I'm still trying to understand how you'd get 1
22:06:27 <int-e> shachaf: Did they give you 0? Two of my sums are there just for that.
22:12:03 <int-e> Oh the 2 situation is actually worse, I messed up. Fixing my mistake it's 233 characters.
22:16:04 <int-e> ah, good sign, the definition on the wiki page is the same as mine, modulo alpha
22:20:17 <ais523> I wonder whether version 0 is as powerful as https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tableaux or whether it's weaker? (I don't think it's stronger)
22:21:32 <ais523> (and I don't think it's incommensurate either)
22:37:19 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, oops, I forgot that I defined 0 and used it in two places, never mind.
22:41:02 <ais523> Σ∞ could benefit from a let…in statement, I think (as a preprocessor, not added into the language itself)
22:41:26 <ais523> would make programs a lot shorter and clearer
22:41:47 <int-e> ais523: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/e88abc1c ;-)
22:41:47 <ais523> or possibly even nonrecursive functions/macros
22:43:55 <int-e> the add function from the wiki is surprisingly not horrible... ADD(1,1) expands to 433 characters
22:45:14 <int-e> (I expected thousands)
22:46:19 <int-e> (but it turns out that most of the macros are linear; only `equal` isn't. so no exponential blowup takes place.)
22:54:34 <int-e> (I'm unironically using that Haskell code; the smiley is there because this is obviously not user friendly. On the plus side, it was extremely low effort.)
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